Indefinate Leave To Remain ! What A Con!

[Chris.B]

There is a new revised Life in the UK test coming on 2 April 2007 so as of yet no one knows what the questions are. Source

Edited March 15, 2007 by Chris.B

[BIG SPUDS]

Called the home office today,

Got a bit of an update.

As my wife does not read or write english, she will have to attend an ESOL citizenship with materials course.

She has to prove she has advanced a level to obtain settlement. I.e. grade from level 1 to level 2.

Looking on the H.O. website it says it will take between 200 - 450 hours to progress a level.

At £80 to 10 X 2 hour lessons you do the maths (expensive)

As this will take time the H.O. will get a further £325 to extend her current visa (for how long who knows)

Then a further £325 when she has proof (certificate) she has inproved.

All courses are free to uk citizens ( why would you want to do this if you are one?)

And because until settlement is obtained no recourse to public funds is stamped on her current visa!

A Con!!!

[the gent]

In attempting to understand the logic of the new rules one must first appreciate the fact that they have been introduced by a government of almost unparalleled incompetence. Compound this with Nu Labour's addiction to social engineering by legislation and it is not surprising that ordinary, hardworking, law abiding citizens are being severely inconvenienced for absolutely no good reason.

The bottom line, unfortunately for the OP and others of his ilk, is that this ludicrous government actually believes by introducing these silly tests future generations of immigrant children will be less inclined to blow people up in pursuing a cause not identifiable as being " British ". Equally, by teaching " citizenship " in the schools as part of the national curriculum they also believe that the spawn of the ever burgeoning lower end of society will not continue to collect ASBOs at the rate they currently do.

Most normal people recognise this cackhanded attempt at social conditioning for the preposterous tosh that it is but then Labour politicians and their shiney arsed sychophantic Home Office clerks are not normal people.

My sympathy, as ever, is with the OP.

[mr_hippo]

markr - I take it that you have taken exams sometime in your life, did you ever study for them? Since when did history become irrelevant?

sonicdragon - another know-it-all who does not need to study, if you can't get 75% then you need to study to pass the test. I am not connected with the Home Office and as such cannot impose the test on anybody.

As it stands now, a foreign spouse of a British citizen has to pass the test - there are exceptions - and there is nothing that the average person can do about it so learn to live with it.

[JacknDanny]

markr - I take it that you have taken exams sometime in your life, did you ever study for them? Since when did history become irrelevant?

sonicdragon - another know-it-all who does not need to study, if you can't get 75% then you need to study to pass the test. I am not connected with the Home Office and as such cannot impose the test on anybody.

As it stands now, a foreign spouse of a British citizen has to pass the test - there are exceptions - and there is nothing that the average person can do about it so learn to live with it.

The words sod, silly, arrogant and supercilious come to mind, however I cannot seem to make a sentence

[Mossfinn]

As my wife does not read or write english, she will have to attend an ESOL citizenship with materials course.

She has to prove she has advanced a level to obtain settlement. I.e. grade from level 1 to level 2.

Is this another way of getting settlement, or have I mis-read your last post?

I was under the impression that for Settlement you could either do the LITUK test or an approved ESOL up to L3, now your statement suggests the H.O is saying as long as the applicant can show improvement and gain a level, presumably from L1 to L2 and so the L3 requirement is by-passed.

Confused again, naturally.

Good Luck

Moss

[mark131v]

you don't have to apply for citizenship as soon as the 3 years are up though, if you need more time - why don't you take more time?

Are you aware of the NEW rules DSK?

No

You have to have passed the test before you can apply for ILR, before you didn't, it is being introduced next month. So anyone applying after that is affected. Also, the costs have more than doubled to about £750 for postal application and £950 for same day.

Bloody hel_l mate first i have heard about this,

have literally sent the Mrs ILR forms in on the first of this month seems like another money making scam from HMG to me how can they justify virtualy a 100% rise in the costs. Hope you are right that it only comes into force next month because if not we are knackered.

In principle it is hard to argue with the fact that people applying to live here should have a knowledge of the language etc but i looked into the ESOL life in the UK thing yonks back and like most other people cant see what relevance that test has to day to day living here it seems to be just an hurdle rather than something that might benefit us.

As for getting on the course when we checked it was booked solid and the local course didnt include the citizenship bit so was a bit of a waste of time. Like most others my wife doesnt drive yet so the nearest course that was applicable is about 20 miles away (even if you can get a place on it!) We both work so how we are meant to sort that i dont know.

Right from the start i have tried to get the wife studying english i work in the forces so i spend a lot of time away on operations so it is left to the wife to run the house while iam away plus i really think it benefits her. She has a mate at work that as been here 7 years and speaks hardly any english and even Pia thinks that is wrong and it deffinatly makes life harder for her.

For the people who are struggling with getting english courses we have been using Rosetta Stone for about a year and it is good (even if she does get bored with it every now and then) it is well worth the money and simple to use even if your mrs has never seen a computer before.

Hope someone sees sense on this subject but iam not holding my breath common sense seems a rare commodity with UK govt and to anyone going through this good luck and keep us informed

cheers Mark

[gummy]

In attempting to understand the logic of the new rules one must first appreciate the fact that they have been introduced by a government of almost unparalleled incompetence. Compound this with Nu Labour's addiction to social engineering by legislation and it is not surprising that ordinary, hardworking, law abiding citizens are being severely inconvenienced for absolutely no good reason.

The bottom line, unfortunately for the OP and others of his ilk, is that this ludicrous government actually believes by introducing these silly tests future generations of immigrant children will be less inclined to blow people up in pursuing a cause not identifiable as being " British ". Equally, by teaching " citizenship " in the schools as part of the national curriculum they also believe that the spawn of the ever burgeoning lower end of society will not continue to collect ASBOs at the rate they currently do.

Most normal people recognise this cackhanded attempt at social conditioning for the preposterous tosh that it is but then Labour politicians and their shiney arsed sychophantic Home Office clerks are not normal people.

My sympathy, as ever, is with the OP.

Although I more or less agree with you although I am doubtfull as to whether the entire government is incompetent. I mean by that that Tony Blair must have a more than a modicum of competence as it appears he has already set up a lecture trail in the States that will net him a few millions. Same as Margarat Thatcher did also by the way. Do you think it strange that the only people gullible enough to pay to listen to the 2 most devisive ex ( soon to be ) British PM's are the Americans ? It is a shame that not more effort is put into the well being and care of British Citizens and their spouses rather then seek personal wealth - but there again looking after your own is not popular anymore in the UK.

Edited March 15, 2007 by gummy

[sonicdragon]

markr - I take it that you have taken exams sometime in your life, did you ever study for them? Since when did history become irrelevant?

sonicdragon - another know-it-all who does not need to study, if you can't get 75% then you need to study to pass the test. I am not connected with the Home Office and as such cannot impose the test on anybody.

As it stands now, a foreign spouse of a British citizen has to pass the test - there are exceptions - and there is nothing that the average person can do about it so learn to live with it.

I'm sorry if you thought that by saying "you" I literally meant *you* - that was not my intention. And it's a shame that you have to throw (figurativey) insults at me - I thought this was a place for debate and exchange of views/information without resort to that. Anyway, perhaps you have misunderstood my point - I am not saying that foreign spouses should not have to study to pass an exam - they should have to if neccesary. I am saying that the exam should not be something that an average british person cannot pass without studying.

You seem to be a fan of learning history, yet you think that we must "live with it" because it has been imposed on us. hmmm.....

[JacknDanny]

markr - I take it that you have taken exams sometime in your life, did you ever study for them? Since when did history become irrelevant?

sonicdragon - another know-it-all who does not need to study, if you can't get 75% then you need to study to pass the test. I am not connected with the Home Office and as such cannot impose the test on anybody.

As it stands now, a foreign spouse of a British citizen has to pass the test - there are exceptions - and there is nothing that the average person can do about it so learn to live with it.

I'm sorry if you thought that by saying "you" I literally meant *you* - that was not my intention. And it's a shame that you have to throw (figurativey) insults at me - I thought this was a place for debate and exchange of views/information without resort to that. Anyway, perhaps you have misunderstood my point - I am not saying that foreign spouses should not have to study to pass an exam - they should have to if neccesary. I am saying that the exam should not be something that an average british person cannot pass without studying.

You seem to be a fan of learning history, yet you think that we must "live with it" because it has been imposed on us. hmmm.....

mr hippo needs an anadin!!!!!

You better learn that test!!!

[samran]

In attempting to understand the logic of the new rules one must first appreciate the fact that they have been introduced by a government of almost unparalleled incompetence. Compound this with Nu Labour's addiction to social engineering by legislation and it is not surprising that ordinary, hardworking, law abiding citizens are being severely inconvenienced for absolutely no good reason.

The bottom line, unfortunately for the OP and others of his ilk, is that this ludicrous government actually believes by introducing these silly tests future generations of immigrant children will be less inclined to blow people up in pursuing a cause not identifiable as being " British ". Equally, by teaching " citizenship " in the schools as part of the national curriculum they also believe that the spawn of the ever burgeoning lower end of society will not continue to collect ASBOs at the rate they currently do.

Most normal people recognise this cackhanded attempt at social conditioning for the preposterous tosh that it is but then Labour politicians and their shiney arsed sychophantic Home Office clerks are not normal people.

My sympathy, as ever, is with the OP.

A couple of disclaimers:

1) The home office are incompetent.

2) I voted for Blair.

3) I think that any spouse should be able to live with their family - basic human right.

Personally, I reckon the goverment is in a catch 22 situation. I also think the words Pot, Kettle and Black apply here.

Before these rules came into force, public pressure from " ordinary, hardworking, law abiding citizens " claiming that migrants were going into their own little enclaves, that they weren't "Bri-ish" enough, they didn't speak, read and write English and that the Government was handing out passports like candy led to the changes. There was also alot of pressure on them that they were too easy going on 'migrants'. Quite convienently, 'migrants' were all lumped together, the illegals and legals.

I seem to remeber before the last general election the conservative party were doing their fair share of migrant bashing.

So, what does a government do? It raises the flag of surrender to these forces of intolerance and applies these tests. What they mean at the end of the day is that basically, only English speaking (read - mainly white) will be able to pass the tests.

What does this mean, well, people who don't read, speak and write English very well are never going to become British Citizens. Fairly straight forward and probably the intended result to calm the hearland.

[grtaylor]

14/20 on the UK test - 10/10 on the Thai test for residency just over a month ago. Guess I've been here too long

G

[markr]

markr - I take it that you have taken exams sometime in your life, did you ever study for them? Since when did history become irrelevant?

sonicdragon - another know-it-all who does not need to study, if you can't get 75% then you need to study to pass the test. I am not connected with the Home Office and as such cannot impose the test on anybody.

As it stands now, a foreign spouse of a British citizen has to pass the test - there are exceptions - and there is nothing that the average person can do about it so learn to live with it.

I'm sorry if you thought that by saying "you" I literally meant *you* - that was not my intention. And it's a shame that you have to throw (figurativey) insults at me - I thought this was a place for debate and exchange of views/information without resort to that. Anyway, perhaps you have misunderstood my point - I am not saying that foreign spouses should not have to study to pass an exam - they should have to if neccesary. I am saying that the exam should not be something that an average british person cannot pass without studying.

You seem to be a fan of learning history, yet you think that we must "live with it" because it has been imposed on us. hmmm.....

mr hippo needs an anadin!!!!!

You better learn that test!!!

Hey!

thats what we need, a bit of comedy! everyone's so serious today!

Quality

Mark

[mrbojangles]

markr - I take it that you have taken exams sometime in your life, did you ever study for them? Since when did history become irrelevant?

I am not saying that foreign spouses should not have to study to pass an exam - they should have to if neccesary. I am saying that the exam should not be something that an average british person cannot pass without studying.

I concur.

Sensible questions about living TODAY is what is required. I.E. how many political parties, what drugs are illegal and legal, what is council tax used for (that should be fun!!), what is the number for emergency numbers, who or what is the Inland Revenue, is Sharia law legal in the UK. These are just off the top of my head. But they all should be known for anyone settling here and if you can answer them on the computer, then your'e reading and writing is at a sufficient level.

[mrbojangles]

You have to have passed the test before you can apply for ILR, before you didn't, it is being introduced next month. So anyone applying after that is affected. Also, the costs have more than doubled to about £750 for postal application and £950 for same day.

Bloody hel_l mate first i have heard about this,

have literally sent the Mrs ILR forms in on the first of this month seems like another money making scam from HMG to me how can they justify virtualy a 100% rise in the costs. Hope you are right that it only comes into force next month because if not we are knackered.

Mark, what date does her actual SV expire? By the looks of it, if you have sent it in 28 days prior and that was the beginning of this month, you should be fine.

Edited March 15, 2007 by mrbojangles

[mark131v]

You have to have passed the test before you can apply for ILR, before you didn't, it is being introduced next month. So anyone applying after that is affected. Also, the costs have more than doubled to about £750 for postal application and £950 for same day.

Bloody hel_l mate first i have heard about this,

have literally sent the Mrs ILR forms in on the first of this month seems like another money making scam from HMG to me how can they justify virtualy a 100% rise in the costs. Hope you are right that it only comes into force next month because if not we are knackered.

Mark, what date does her actual SV expire? By the looks of it, if you have sent it in 28 days prior and that was the beginning of this month, you should be fine.

Looks like we have had a bit of luck on this one. Yeah the visa was up on the 31st of this month but i had been looking at the ESOL thing with ref to getting Brit Cit cant believe they are now saying you need that for ILR load of bol*&cks if you ask me.

Thanks for the info mate cheers Mark

[JacknDanny]

markr - I take it that you have taken exams sometime in your life, did you ever study for them? Since when did history become irrelevant?

I am not saying that foreign spouses should not have to study to pass an exam - they should have to if neccesary. I am saying that the exam should not be something that an average british person cannot pass without studying.

I concur.

Sensible questions about living TODAY is what is required. I.E. how many political parties, what drugs are illegal and legal, what is council tax used for (that should be fun!!), what is the number for emergency numbers, who or what is the Inland Revenue, is Sharia law legal in the UK. These are just off the top of my head. But they all should be known for anyone settling here and if you can answer them on the computer, then your'e reading and writing is at a sufficient level.

Mr BOJ, I agree and sympathise with these situations.

Sure a test should be taken but on RELEVANT issues relating to life in the UK.

The fact as well that these tests are for spouses of British men and the relationships are genuine, bemuses me.

What I would like to know, without being racist is do all these corner shop owners, normally of Indian or Pakistani descent, have to take these tests.

The last time I was back there, there were literally tribes of them taking over every corner with none of them speaking any English. From what I am told, the situation has worsened!!!

[mrbojangles]

What I would like to know, without being racist is do all these corner shop owners, normally of Indian or Pakistani descent, have to take these tests.

If they have already been given ILR, then they won't need to take the tests unless they want Citizenship. But all new applicants have to take them. So yeah, an old granny, gramps or whoever who has been here for years and not bothered learning English, will be exempt.

Edited March 15, 2007 by mrbojangles

[the gent]

Presumably it has not been lost on some of you that the requirement to either become proficient in the English language or to pass the "Britishness" test will probably soon be incorporated into the Immigration rules for those seeking settlement visas prior to their arrival in the UK.

Now, wouldn't that be a thing?

My complaint about these silly tests is that it represents an unnecessary intrusion by the State into one's private life without any recompense.

In order to meet the requirements for settlement under the existing rules both sponsor and applicant have to be financially independent of the state and not likely to become a burden. To qualify for ILR one simply has to demonstrate that the basis of the original visa issue has not changed and that the probationary period designed to test the relationship has been completed. A demand that the applicant should now acquire academic skills adds nothing to this legal test save an unwelcome hindrance to those who are not so academically inclined. An inability to speak English to a level satisfactory to a shiney arsed civil servant is no bar to an individual who nevertheless finds work, pays taxes and contributes to the enrichment of their family life.

As a previous post has already alluded, the test discriminates against those migrants not from English speaking former dominions but perhaps that is an intention. Who can tell? This government is capable of anything.

[The Dan Sai Kid]

Presumably it has not been lost on some of you that the requirement to either become proficient in the English language or to pass the "Britishness" test will probably soon be incorporated into the Immigration rules for those seeking settlement visas prior to their arrival in the UK.

Now, wouldn't that be a thing?

My complaint about these silly tests is that it represents an unnecessary intrusion by the State into one's private life without any recompense.

In order to meet the requirements for settlement under the existing rules both sponsor and applicant have to be financially independent of the state and not likely to become a burden. To qualify for ILR one simply has to demonstrate that the basis of the original visa issue has not changed and that the probationary period designed to test the relationship has been completed. A demand that the applicant should now acquire academic skills adds nothing to this legal test save an unwelcome hindrance to those who are not so academically inclined. An inability to speak English to a level satisfactory to a shiney arsed civil servant is no bar to an individual who nevertheless finds work, pays taxes and contributes to the enrichment of their family life.

As a previous post has already alluded, the test discriminates against those migrants not from English speaking former dominions but perhaps that is an intention. Who can tell? This government is capable of anything.

your name seems strangely familiar...

[samran]

Presumably it has not been lost on some of you that the requirement to either become proficient in the English language or to pass the "Britishness" test will probably soon be incorporated into the Immigration rules for those seeking settlement visas prior to their arrival in the UK.

Now, wouldn't that be a thing?

Scamp,

I believe that proficiency in Engerish is already part of the HSMP requirements.

As for if you are scamp, innocent until proven guilty, but I'll be letting admin take a look.

[The Dan Sai Kid]

Presumably it has not been lost on some of you that the requirement to either become proficient in the English language or to pass the "Britishness" test will probably soon be incorporated into the Immigration rules for those seeking settlement visas prior to their arrival in the UK.

Now, wouldn't that be a thing?

Scamp,

I believe that proficiency in Engerish is already part of the HSMP requirements.

As for if you are scamp, innocent until proven guilty, but I'll be letting admin take a look.

check out the gent's page

[the gent]

Are there really those who actually think for the minutest of minute picu seconds that I and the Scamp could possibly be one and the same ?

I know nothing of the Dan Sai billy goat but, frankly, I would have expected better of you Samran.

The Scamp showed occasional flashes of talent but he lacks my syntactical accuracy and vocabulary. Surely that is blindingly obvious to the shortest of shortsighted?

Perspicacity is not the greatest attribute of the TV fora membership it seems.

Hey ho, no surprises there then......

Edited March 15, 2007 by the gent

[The Dan Sai Kid]

The Gentleman doth protest too much, methinks.

Edited March 15, 2007 by The Dan Sai Kid

[Prakanong]

Called the home office today,

Got a bit of an update.

As my wife does not read or write english, she will have to attend an ESOL citizenship with materials course.

She has to prove she has advanced a level to obtain settlement. I.e. grade from level 1 to level 2.

Looking on the H.O. website it says it will take between 200 - 450 hours to progress a level.

At £80 to 10 X 2 hour lessons you do the maths (expensive)

As this will take time the H.O. will get a further £325 to extend her current visa (for how long who knows)

Then a further £325 when she has proof (certificate) she has inproved.

All courses are free to uk citizens ( why would you want to do this if you are one?)

And because until settlement is obtained no recourse to public funds is stamped on her current visa!

A Con!!!

I bet certain groups are funded to achive this level though - it is a bit of a con

[mrbojangles]

The Gentleman doth protest too much, methinks.

Trust me on this one DSK, Scamp and the Gent are not the same

[Richard W]

Mr BOJ, I agree and sympathise with these situations.

Sure a test should be taken but on RELEVANT issues relating to life in the UK.

The fact as well that these tests are for spouses of British men and the relationships are genuine, bemuses me.

What I would like to know, without being racist is do all these corner shop owners, normally of Indian or Pakistani descent, have to take these tests.

The last time I was back there, there were literally tribes of them taking over every corner with none of them speaking any English. From what I am told, the situation has worsened!!!

From the point of view of many, the problem with the immmigration rules is that they are colour-blind.

I believe the naturalisation rules still impose lesser requirements on the spouses of British citizens, but it is now a far cry from the pre-1948 situation when marrying a Briton bestowed citizenship on a foreign wife.

It is conceivable that one reason for imposing the test on the spouses of native-born Britons is that many UK citizens of South Asian origin are bringing in spouses from South Asia, so it is difficult to incorporate requirements that are sensitive to the UK spouse's Britishness, though one might hope that the tests would be less onerous for those of vaguely British culture - and I think we can include many Australians in this category.

These tests may well be stoking up hatred. What is the traditional British response to impositions such as this? Should we rise up in revolt and slay Labour MPs? While feasible, the rebels' wives may be deported as unable to accommodate themselves and any children forced to leave with them or go into care. Remember that the Peasants' Revolt was not a great success.

It seems ironic that these requirements should impel some to seek to establish foreign (e.g. Irish) citizenship.

What will happen in the future if after 4 years residence a family's finances collapse? Will the immigrant spouse be deported if the exams have not been passed? 4 years' legal (or 10 year's illegal) residence (without use of diplomatic connections) used to obtain ILR

I wonder how Britain's Muslim communities are reacting to these requirements. Is the immigration stealth tax increasing alienation?

[the scouser]

It seems ironic that these requirements should impel some to seek to establish foreign (e.g. Irish) citizenship.

It is exceptionally ironic, but that is the perversity of the conflicting legislation; that those who are British are treated less preferentially than their European counterparts.

It is all an exercise in social engineering; the current regime wishes all to be part of a homogenous mass, where all march to the same tune, and all follow trams lines: God forbid that anyone would use their own sense of judgment or common sense.

Yesterday, I tried to open a bank account for our 1-year-old son, for whom we'd previously opened a different account with the same institution, and they still wished to see the same "evidence" that had already been provided. The justification for this was that it is "the rules". I shall tolerate no longer this Kafkaesque and bizarre environment in which all sense of proportion and reason has been lost.

Scouse.

[sonicdragon]

"exceptionally ironic" is putting it mildly. I think it's an utter abomination.

By the way, what are "the rules" for "evidence" needed when opening a bank account for overseas-born british children ? I'll be wanting to do this when we visit soon.

[The Dan Sai Kid]

A few years ago we needed to borrow money from the bank. When we went they said that they couldn't lend me the money, as I had not spent enough time in the UK over the previous 3 years. But, they could lend the money to my wife - who had arrived in the UK - for the first time - on the same day as me!!