Flush out unaccredited degrees

[wilcopops]

9 minutes ago, CharlieH said:

You missed the point. Skills and paperwork are not necessarily the same thing. You can have a degree in zooology from 1985, but if your teaching English in 2019 it's as useless as an ashtray on a motorbike! Paperwork does not make you proficient, skill and experience does.

You've missed the point - there people are prepared to commit fraud to get a job - what other frauds are "OK" by them?

You are still just talking about teaching - in fact many schools around the world will not take a science degree without some evidence of EL ability......if your degree is an "essay" degree then you are likely to be well equipped with the necessary language skills and can benefit from a short piece of training as you already have most of the skills and knowledge already skills - the fact the Thailand doesn't apply this is neither here nor their - I'm pointing out that this is fraud.

 

A high-positioned engineer asked me the other day which was correct - "would have or would of"? Clearly not qualified to teach English, but a he could design a bridge.

 

Edited July 15, 2019 by wilcopops

[CharlieH]

9 minutes ago, wilcopops said:

 

A high-positioned engineer asked me the other day which was correct - "would have or would of"? Clearly not qualified to teach English, but a he could design a bridge.

 

And what was more important to you, that he could design the bridge, or he had the correct paperwork  ?

 

But yes, technically, claiming to have something that you do not is fraudulent, that was never really in question.

[sanemax]

15 minutes ago, wilcopops said:

 

 

A high-positioned engineer asked me the other day which was correct - "would have or would of"? Clearly not qualified to teach English, but a he could design a bridge.

 

Maybe he knew and was asking you to see whether you knew or not ?

[Mikisteel]

Absolutely, I condone it if you can honestly say you will do a better job than some who are qualified. 100% back the idea.

 

My Mrs writes and speaks English 100 times better than 90% of the Thai teachers I have met so in this instance I condone it.

 

I also condone bad karma to people who like to grass people up. I have nothing to hide myself but to those that do, none of mine and anyone else's business.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Social Media]

1 hour ago, wilcopops said:

 

I was speaking to an immigration official the other who was very surprised to find that there was a list of fake degrees - or "unaccredited" ones published on Wiki - she immediately looked it up and said she'd printout out for her colleagues....apparently it hadn't occurred to them how easy it was to check up

What business is it of yours? What possible right do you have to interfere in other people's lives and livelyhoods ! You could well have destroyed someone's life and family in the process. It's none of your business and you need to stop meddling in other people's affairs, I truly hope karma comes your way, soon ! 

Edited July 15, 2019 by Black Ops

[Traubert]

8 hours ago, hansnl said:

Isn't it time the authorities start to see these razzia style crackdowns have a very negative impact on tourism and on long time stay expats?

The deeds are maybe necessary, but the continuous bragging about it doesn't really help to project a positive image of Thailand, and certainly isn't helping to stop the decline of western visitors.

 

It is as if the Thai authorities are imitating the Chinese immigration books.........

 

There was a major reason why Chinese immigration, particularly with reference to teachers, changed seven years ago.

 

Teaching English was pretty much the only job a foreigner could get. Ok, some modelling/acting but nothing regular and they were screaming for native speaking teachers. Two French nationals were found fiddling with the kids in an international school in Shanghai and overnight the rocket went up.

 

Now you have to be recruited outside China, have two years demonstrable experience, a Batchelors for Middle/High School, a Masters for College/Uni and all documents have to be notarized by your own Foreign Office. Police records are mandatory. If you aren't a native speaker, you have to have a degree in English or Teaching from an English speaking country. Plus a full medical.

 

As for experience trumping qualifications, a friend who worked for Jaguar in UK for 24 years tried to transfer to China. They bought him lunch and told him to bugger off.

 

Top and bottom of it is, if it keeps the bad men away from the kids, go for it. Sod the ethics in any other scenario.

[emptypockets]

1 hour ago, Black Ops said:

What business is it of yours? What possible right do you have to interfere in other people's lives and livelyhoods ! You could well have destroyed someone's life and family in the process. It's none of your business and you need to stop meddling in other people's affairs, I truly hope karma comes your way, soon ! 

I bet he was a milk monitor in primary school. 

[Traubert]

8 hours ago, hansnl said:

Isn't it time the authorities start to see these razzia style crackdowns have a very negative impact on tourism and on long time stay expats?

The deeds are maybe necessary, but the continuous bragging about it doesn't really help to project a positive image of Thailand, and certainly isn't helping to stop the decline of western visitors.

 

It is as if the Thai authorities are imitating the Chinese immigration books.........

 

There was a major reason why Chinese immigration, particularly with reference to teachers, changed seven years ago.

 

Teaching English was pretty much the only job a foreigner could get. Ok, some modelling/acting but nothing regular and they were screaming for native speaking teachers. Two French nationals were found fiddling with the kids in an international school in Shanghai and overnight the rocket went up.

 

Now you have to be recruited outside China, have two years demonstrable experience, a Batchelors for Middle/High School, a Masters for College/Uni and all documents have to be notarized by your own Foreign Office. Police records are mandatory. If you aren't a native speaker, you have to have a degree in English or Teaching from an English speaking country. Plus a full medical.

 

As for experience trumping qualifications, a friend who worked for Jaguar in UK for 24 years tried to transfer to China. They bought him lunch and told him to bugger off.

 

Top and bottom of it is, if it keeps the bad men away from the kids, go for it. Sod the ethics in any other scenario.

[Greyhat]

You can rationalise it any way you want, "omg they're breaking the law" etc. but why don't you just own it? You're mad that you put in a lot of work to get a degree while others just bought a fake. I get that, that makes sense and I agree, it's mildly irritating. I don't get the pontificating, mind your business and worry about what you're doing with your own life instead of being angry about what others are doing with theirs.

Edited July 15, 2019 by Greyhat

[Cashboy]

 

Most of the university degrees appear in effect to be bought now.

If you think about it; universities are dependent on fees from students (well student loans) to survive so universities therefore do not want to fail any students.

I interview recent graduates for jobs in the west and I am shocked at the poor quality graduates there are.

 

Teaching English to foreigners does not require a university degree in my opinion and I have met many university graduates that would not understand the composition of a sentence etc.

 

Off the subject, I actually believe that a uinversity degree is a waste of time and money unless in a scientific subject such as mathematics, physics, chemistry, engineering etc.

Otherwise the only use for university degrees is for teaching the subject again.

 

[Damrongsak]

I just saw a news article about salaries of officials in Virginia, USA.  Most of the top salaries were presidents of public universities.  The top dog is making just over $1 million US dollars a year. 

[Hackney35]

7 hours ago, Black Ops said:

What business is it of yours? What possible right do you have to interfere in other people's lives and livelyhoods ! You could well have destroyed someone's life and family in the process. It's none of your business and you need to stop meddling in other people's affairs, I truly hope karma comes your way, soon ! 

Well said! Out of all the problems in Thailand this crusade seems like a very weird vendetta to choose. 

[Hackney35]

Some of the stupidest people I’ve ever met went to oxbridge and I worked for a multi millionaire hedgie who didn’t even sit A-levels let alone a degree.

 

Formal degrees mean very little after a few years in the workplace, experience and real life skills are all that matters.

[Bigz]

12 hours ago, wilcopops said:

So you are condoning fraud by  teachers?

What about the other jobs?

Not condoning anything. Some areas in Thailand are in serious trouble because they can't find English teachers at all. Sometimes they have to hire non native speaker teachers without any qualifications or stop the English classes altogether. 

As for other professions in the private sector if you can't do your job properly you will be fired quickly. Simple as that.

Fortunately I do not need to work so this is not my concern. I just don't understand your attitude. People need to mind their own business.

[wilcopops]

2 hours ago, Tongjaw said:

Just out of curiosity what’s your educational background? Are you working here in Thailand yourself? 

I suggest you curb your curiosity about the messenger and concentrate on the message.

[wilcopops]

13 minutes ago, Bigz said:

Not condoning anything. Some areas in Thailand are in serious trouble because they can't find English teachers at all. Sometimes they have to hire non native speaker teachers without any qualifications or stop the English classes altogether. 

As for other professions in the private sector if you can't do your job properly you will be fired quickly. Simple as that.

Fortunately I do not need to work so this is not my concern. I just don't understand your attitude. People need to mind their own business.

You seem to be unclear about the point of my OP.........

I am well aware of the Thai policies regarding employing foreigners in many fields including teaching, but there is a difference between hiring someone without a degree and hiring someone who has passed iff a fraudulent document as a real degree.

 

[wilcopops]

18 minutes ago, Bigz said:

As for other professions in the private sector if you can't do your job properly you will be fired quickly. Simple as that.

This is patently untrue. Flawed management and poor training together with Kreng Jai and self-preservation mean that incompetent foreign employees are a recurring problem in Thai industry....... many work here on reduced salary because they can't get employed in their home country...... they simply aren'y good enough. Unfortunately the hierarchical structure in most Thai companies makes it very difficult for HR an d others to accurately gauge the people they employ. They rely on paperwork - and quite rightly too in helping to form a judgement. So if a foreign submits fraudulent papers then it can often lead to people being emp[loyed who are simply not up to the job and its may take months or years to wheedle them out.

[Tongjaw]

31 minutes ago, wilcopops said:

I suggest you curb your curiosity about the messenger and concentrate on the message.

The message your attempting to send comes over as a load of BS by some grumpy old complaining man. My degree is in chemical engineering but I’ve worked with many guys in my oil and gas career who held no degrees but had many years of experience. They could and still do leave many degree holders behind when it comes to troubleshooting and getting the job done. I agree that no one should present a fake degree. I don’t agree with you meddling in other people’s affairs, running to your so called immigration friends trying to make yourself look good. Try minding your own business and leave others alone. 

Edited July 16, 2019 by Tongjaw
Spelling

[emptypockets]

So OP,  what is your plan to implement the flushing out of fake degree holders?  What tactics will you use and when do you start? 

What will happen when the plan backfires on a genuine degree holder and you end up in court for defamation.  I hope you have deep pockets.  Love to help but my pockets are empty. 555.

Edited July 16, 2019 by emptypockets

[DILLIGAD]

So OP,  what is your plan to implement the flushing out of fake degree holders?  What tactics will you use and when do you start? 
What will happen when the plan backfires on a genuine degree holder and you end up in court for defamation.  I hope you have deep pockets.  Love to help but my pockets are empty. 555.

When you’ve finished that crusade, could you also check all the Thai’s who have paid to be promoted and/or to be qualified too!


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[john ianson]

On 7/15/2019 at 4:17 PM, Bigz said:

Is it really the most concerning issue you have managed to come up with? Why don't you just mind your own business and be happy in Thailand. You are only a farang. Thais don't give a s**t about your opinion and they are right. It is not for us to tell them how to do things when they can't get a proper English teacher in Isaan.

And you cannot understand why English standard in Thailand is the lowest in ASEAN !

[Airbagwill]

On 7/16/2019 at 1:28 PM, emptypockets said:

So OP,  what is your plan to implement the flushing out of fake degree holders?  What tactics will you use and when do you start? 

What will happen when the plan backfires on a genuine degree holder and you end up in court for defamation.  I hope you have deep pockets.  Love to help but my pockets are empty. 555.

Fake degrees are fraud. They are printed by fraudulent people who make millions.

here is a guide to finding if your degree was a scam....... https://www.distancelearningportal.com/articles/175/8-ways-to-find-out-if-an-online-degree-is-a-scam-or-the-real-deal.html

 

How to deal with it regards visas and work permits is easy; just give these lists......

 

https://www.scholaro.com/unaccredited-universities/

https://businesstoday.co.ke/list-degree-courses-rejected-universities/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unaccredited_institutions_of_higher_education 

https://www.geteducated.com/college-degree-mills/204-fake-agencies-for-college-accreditation

 

to the local immigration office. They can then make up their own minds when issuing or renewing visas.  It takes minutes even seconds to check, they just don't know or bother at present.

 

At present immigration require degrees to be "verified" by your country of origin, e.g. the embassy, but many embassies won't do this and immigration still issue short-term visas without this.

 

As for those who "are doing their job well" with a fake degree....they aren't are they? They have already committed fraud and what's to say they won't again? Either in their current job or going to or getting another.

[transam]

On 7/15/2019 at 4:01 PM, wilcopops said:

A solution in some cases might be not to ask for a degree..... But if they do then putting a false one forward is fraud..,..

Chap, how many Thais have great jobs because they paid someone upstairs...?

 

To me it's exactly the same as a dodgy CV or degree.....

[DILLIGAD]

Chap, how many Thais have great jobs because they paid someone upstairs...?
 
To me it's exactly the same as a dodgy CV or degree.....

Yep, that’s what I was mentioning in post52.
I know a few ‘professors’ who got farangs to do their work, to obtain Masters Degrees in India.


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[Airbagwill]

23 hours ago, DILLIGAD said:

Yep, that’s what I was mentioning in post52.
I know a few ‘professors’ who got farangs to do their work, to obtain Masters Degrees in India.


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so does the one justify the other?

[AGareth2]

On 7/15/2019 at 4:39 AM, wilcopops said:

Maybe employers should be asked to provide evidence that their employees are truly qualified rather than continuing to employ fraudsters?

this is happening at uni's

[GalaxyMan]

On 7/15/2019 at 8:37 PM, wilcopops said:

As said I wasn't in particular referring to teachers but I WAS referring to people who submit fake degrees ...if they never claim to have one then that is a different matter.

 

I was speaking to an immigration official the other who was very surprised to find that there was a list of fake degrees - or "unaccredited" ones published on Wiki - she immediately looked it up and said she'd printout out for her colleagues....apparently it hadn't occurred to them how easy it was to check up

Thailand is not famous for the critical thinking of its people.

[sanemax]

4 minutes ago, GalaxyMan said:

Thailand is not famous for the critical thinking of its people.

I dunno , my Thai GF was always critical of me "thinking to mutt"

[GalaxyMan]

On 7/16/2019 at 4:04 AM, Cashboy said:

I interview recent graduates for jobs in the west and I am shocked at the poor quality graduates there are.

I used to be the general manager of a high-end restaurant that was part of a corporation. I was appalled by the total lack of literacy in so-called college graduates who were applying for management jobs. They couldn't spell, construct a credible sentence, or even understand what was being asked of them. Often, their handwriting looked like something that they had just started to learn. I get where some sort of certification is reasonable, but a college degree is about as useful as used toilet paper if it's not in the sciences these days.

[DILLIGAD]

so does the one justify the other?

Not at all, but it does highlight the ‘problem’ isn’t just a farang issue.


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