Thanathorn admits Thais cannot rely on foreigners to fight for democracy

[AverageBloke]

 I don't know Thailand as well as some on here but I get the impression that the average Thai has a "worry about it tomorrow attitude" so I certainly don't take Thanathorn's comments as a dig against foreigners but more as gentle nudge that his fellow countrymen can't expect democracy handed to them on a plate.

 

[ramr]

36 minutes ago, usviphotography said:

The whole fetish over "Democracy" is silly and misplaced. What you need to focus on is good government. The two best led Asian nations over the past century have been Japan and Singapore. Japan was a one party state for most of that time and Singapore a quasi-dictatorship. Discussion of how much better Vietnam is than Thailand nowadays is rife on this forum. Nobody complains about Vietnam having no Democracy whatsoever. 

 

Whether it is a monarchy, oligarchy, dictatorship, military junta, republic, or democracy, the fundamental marker of a government is its effectiveness in creating a good country. Instead of the constant bickering over the form of government, more focus should be placed on working together to identify problems and promote solutions. 

I have to agree, and must admit I have been using the word "democracy" in this thread somewhat indiscriminately.  I do tend towards it due to my upbringing, and also because it seems to represent an improvement to the existing wildly kleptocratic, wasteful, incompetent, and cronyist system... But then again, what doesn't at this point?

 

But I'm not married to the idea that democracy is necessarily the most ideal form of government for the Thais, especially when considering that democracies seem to function best with a populace capable of analysis and critical thinking.  Otherwise you end up with a glorified form of mob rule.

 

 

I'm just thinking out loud here...as I've said previously, we'll need some exceptional Thais to really answer this question and find the solution.

Edited July 17, 2019 by ramr

[FarFlungFalang]

2 hours ago, Eligius said:

I agree. I have never encountered a Thai politician like Thanathorn before in all my years in or associated with Thailand. He really is a breath of fresh air. Could he eventually prove to be a sell-out? Of course it is possible. But so far - I see not even the slightest nano-sign of that.

I believe he is far and away the best hope for Thailand's future.

I think he (Thanathorn) has stepped into a vast empty and lonely place in the world of Thai political leadership.He has no competition in this space.On his first foray into Thai politics he gave some an awful fright so much so they banned him,which I believe will come back to bite them.I think one reason the Thai populous has not revolted is that the elite have learnt that slowly turning screws on the people taking as much as they can without exerting to much pressure,but Thanathorn is chipping away and hopefully will soon open the floodgates.He is young and I believe learning quickly.If he succeeds he will remember those that denied his requests for assisstance and as others have mentioned the west has assisted many times countries fights for democracy but for some reason the silence remains deafening in Thailand's case as it always is!     

[FarFlungFalang]

53 minutes ago, usviphotography said:

Whether it is a monarchy, oligarchy, dictatorship, military junta, republic, or democracy, the fundamental marker of a government is its effectiveness in creating a good country. Instead of the constant bickering over the form of government, more focus should be placed on working together to identify problems and promote solutions. 

A "good country" to me that would be one that works to reduce the gap between the rich and the poor (like sharing) rather than working to increase the gap between rich and poor (selfish,arrogant,self righteous and superior).

[dcnx]

7 hours ago, FarFlungFalang said:

I know a lots of dogs that get treated really nice with lots of love and kindness so I see what you mean.

You mean the ones the local temple monks beat with sticks?

[Eric Loh]

19 minutes ago, FarFlungFalang said:

A "good country" to me that would be one that works to reduce the gap between the rich and the poor (like sharing) rather than working to increase the gap between rich and poor (selfish,arrogant,self righteous and superior).

To add on to your excellent point, a good country is one that allows people to speak their minds and shape their own and children's future. Democracies are on the average richer than others and have a better record of fighting corruption. That so many people in so many different parts of the world are prepared to risk so much for democracy is testimony to its enduring appeal. 

[GarryP]

4 hours ago, neeray said:

Thank you Eligius for your excellent post. Your first sentence cleared up a repetitive misunderstanding that many posters had. I saw it the same as you. And I see the genuineness of Thanathorn and fully expect and hope that he will one day be the Prime Minister of Thailand.

Up until your post, I kept thinking what a whacky bunch of posts. Again, thank you.

Your last sentence says it all. The fact that so many posters responded as if Thanathorn was referring to them was surprising to say the least.  And bang on about visas, they don't like us, they are doing everything to get rid of us, etc.... A real head scratcher.     

[JAG]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

I really don't know what his angle is with this. Why is he even mentioning foreigners? Is it at attempt to blame the foreign community for not helping them or is it a way to encourage Thais themselves to stand up to the regime without implicitly saying it and risking a jail term for "spreading disharmomy" or whatever Prayut calls it? Either way, it's a Thai problem for Thai people to sort out, I don't really see Thailand spending it's resources to help other nations with their problems so I'm not sure what they are expecting from other nations.

 

It would be a bit like Boris Johnson stating that "we can't expect the Thai nation to resolve Brexit for us, we must do it ourselves". It's so obvious that it's meaningless, it's fatuous.

 

Even if foreign powers tried to help I believe most Thais would tell them to stop interfering in Thailand's internal issues. So yes it is up to Thailand to resolve the problem of the Thai military's interference in Thai politics but I won't be holding my breath.

He was speaking whilst in the USA, and giving an interview to Voice of America, to be broadcast to Thailand in English. He was addressing Americans, and Thais sufficiently educated and interested to listen to VOA. Perhaps he was making the point, to both those audiences, that it is for the Thai people to struggle for and achieve the goal (western style pluralist democracy) which he wants, and judging by his electoral success an increasing number of (mainly younger) Thais want. I'm sure that support from foreigners will be welcome, and he has shown his awareness of how important foreign interest is by engaging with them to the extent that he has; but for the interest shown/declared by foreign governments I suspect he would have been silenced within a week of the election! 

 

I specifically said "pluralist democracy", because he is, in the pursuit of his goal, prepared to work with other parties, notably Pheu Thai - which has led to frothy mouthed declarations that he is a clone/in the pay of Thaksin from those on TVF who missed (or chose to miss) that point!

Edited July 17, 2019 by JAG

[FarFlungFalang]

6 minutes ago, dcnx said:

You mean the ones the local temple monks beat with sticks?

Yes exactly, love and kindness Thai Bhuddist style!

[FarFlungFalang]

8 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

To add on to your excellent point, a good country is one that allows people to speak their minds and shape their own and children's future. Democracies are on the average richer than others and have a better record of fighting corruption. That so many people in so many different parts of the world are prepared to risk so much for democracy is testimony to its enduring appeal. 

Thank You.I agree that Thailand would be much better without the shackles of the present regime.There are so many talented people here that people are unaware of giving the impression that Thais are ignorant uneducated and lazy to the those that are ignorant uneducated and lazy.  

[DrTuner]

Why would foreigners do anything, when Thais display complete disinterest and complacency. Let 'em rot.

Edited July 17, 2019 by DrTuner

[Eligius]

2 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

Why would foreigners do anything, when Thais display complete disinterest and complacency. Let 'em rot.

I understand your feelings (a lot of Thais are not all that bothered by the regime under which they live, it is true) - BUT there are many, many mainly young Thais (who largely support Thanathorn) who are pretty furious about what is being done to their country and who are voicing their anger in no uncertain terms on Facebook and other social media.

 

The only hope for Thailand lies with the young ...

[FarFlungFalang]

7 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

Why would foreigners do anything, when Thais display complete disinterest and complacency. Let 'em rot.

Because we are kind and generous with displays of empathy (not to be confused with apathy) and get all warm and fuzzy when we do something of this nature especially if it is appreciated.Just like helping random strangers who are in need of assistance.

Edited July 17, 2019 by FarFlungFalang
Add Text

[DrTuner]

2 hours ago, usviphotography said:

The whole fetish over "Democracy" is silly and misplaced. What you need to focus on is good government. The two best led Asian nations over the past century have been Japan and Singapore. Japan was a one party state for most of that time and Singapore a quasi-dictatorship. Discussion of how much better Vietnam is than Thailand nowadays is rife on this forum. Nobody complains about Vietnam having no Democracy whatsoever. 

I've complained about Vietnam being commies in just about every thread. Dictatorships & co work when it's a case of picking up the pieces or starting from scratch, but once the population gets educated, the switch to democracy has to happen. Take a look how Europe managed to do it. Took a fair bit of bloodshed, once you let a dictator in, they won't go out without a fight. Thailand isn't ready to pick that fight yet. Maybe the generation that was born in this millenium will take it up.

[DrTuner]

14 minutes ago, FarFlungFalang said:

Because we are kind and generous with displays of empathy (not to be confused with apathy) and get all warm and fuzzy when we do something of this nature especially if it is appreciated.

Sounds like a perfect recipe to get scammed by the locals. 

 

I think I've spent way too long in Thailand. Got just about zero f***s to give.

[FarFlungFalang]

14 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

Sounds like a perfect recipe to get scammed by the locals. 

 

I think I've spent way too long in Thailand. Got just about zero f***s to give.

Yes that thought did occur to me post post (ha ha get it?Sorry)Funnily enough I've only ever been scammed once (well ok twice) in Thailand,it occurred about 20 years ago and it is still going,lost millions of baht so far.Spending to much time in Thailand only happens to those that deserve it,the longer you stay the more you deserve it!Just about zero sounds like there might still be one or two f***s left so all is not lost!

Edited July 17, 2019 by FarFlungFalang
Punctuation.

[Fex Bluse]

3 hours ago, usviphotography said:

The whole fetish over "Democracy" is silly and misplaced. What you need to focus on is good government. The two best led Asian nations over the past century have been Japan and Singapore. Japan was a one party state for most of that time and Singapore a quasi-dictatorship. Discussion of how much better Vietnam is than Thailand nowadays is rife on this forum. Nobody complains about Vietnam having no Democracy whatsoever. 

 

Whether it is a monarchy, oligarchy, dictatorship, military junta, republic, or democracy, the fundamental marker of a government is its effectiveness in creating a good country. Instead of the constant bickering over the form of government, more focus should be placed on working together to identify problems and promote solutions. 

I actually agree with much of your post. 

 

Democracy, while decent, has various fundamental flaws (like all systems) and may not be well suited to certain peoples. 

 

I think Asians in particular, with the high priority they place for societal harmony, are not well-suited to the conflict that Democracy necessitates. 

 

Also, good democracy requires an educated (and optimally selfless) society. Thailand has nothing close to either of these traits. 

 

I criticize Thais so heavily because rather than acknowledge that they are not interested in actual democracy, their greed and superficiality leads them to incessant pretending. 

 

China, for example, makes no such silly stage show. They don't do democracy and don't pretend to. I can respect that. Singapore same. 

Edited July 17, 2019 by Fex Bluse

[scorecard]

3 hours ago, geoffbezoz said:

I remain to be convinced about Thanathorn's true motives. On the face of it he could be the younger person to lead Thailand forward.  However given his families fabulous wealth, and we all know that no family makes that money or grow a business to that extent without bum licking to those above and not to mention "donations" to facilitate governmental approvals,  just how much of this has rubbed off on Thanathorn.  Like Shinawatra before him, is he just identifying himself with those that really care , whilst behind the scenes perhaps have other motives ?  But I hope I am 100% wrong.

Yes, but please don't be too quick to judge him because of his family wealth. In reality the family wealth funded him to gain excellent broad education and strong deep awareness of the rest of the world and to his credit he focused a lot of his time on poverty, disparity in income and living standards etc.

 

And by immersion the understanding that laws are there for a reason and an important factor in building a balanced and fair civil society, and folks should respect the law and are entitled to fair legal process, but should protest if they believe the laws to be wrong. And this where his impressive side kick comes in, he's a very respected law professor with the same values as Khun Thanathorn.  

[tingtongtourist]

Thanatorn is only tell them what they know already..

 

"  The U.N <or add country> is NOT my father"

 

Thais learnt it early on and nothing changes now.

 

He should know and not expect foriegners to intervene anyway, as its against immigration law for foriegner involve in politicts.

(except for the armchair Thaivisa experts)

555

[FarFlungFalang]

17 minutes ago, tingtongtourist said:

He should know and not expect foriegners to intervene anyway, as its against immigration law for foriegner involve in politicts.

(except for the armchair Thaivisa experts)

555

I don't think he was asking for any kind of intervention.There are many ways a country can support another countries efforts to achieve their goals.South Africa is an example.

[Sunnytimes]

Democracy is a mant splendid thing. But it is not honest. It is duplicitous. America can help but in the end they "help themselves" mostly. Thais should understand that their basic industries are being mismanaged by a  military oriented government that doesn't really have the savvy to create meaningful tourist experiences. Tourists are not army recruits. 

 

To date in Pattaya the government has destroyed the "bar scene" totally since 2005 and replaced it with empty condominiums. As if someone needs to go to Thailand to do what? You closed the bars! You then made the remainder close at midnight or thereabouts. Any stragglers in the bars get picked up by police and must submit to a breathilizer test. If you don't have a license you could spend 30 days in jail. 

 

Does this sound like a place you would want to go to? 

Recreational facilities are being slowly whittled away as well. 

Basically your government is hostile to tourists and "just wants money". Soon your industries will be ruined and you will need more money to pay for your high speed train. Then things will get really ugly. 

[Mavideol]

3 hours ago, Eligius said:

I understand your feelings (a lot of Thais are not all that bothered by the regime under which they live, it is true) - BUT there are many, many mainly young Thais (who largely support Thanathorn) who are pretty furious about what is being done to their country and who are voicing their anger in no uncertain terms on Facebook and other social media.

 

The only hope for Thailand lies with the young ...

very similar to what's happening in HK and China, new generation don't want their rights taken away... old generation usually are not bothered by the current situation, unfortunately lack of ambition

[ocddave]

24 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

very similar to what's happening in HK and China, new generation don't want their rights taken away... old generation usually are not bothered by the current situation, unfortunately lack of ambition

Indoctrination is a powerful thing, but that same indoctrination fuels money/greed/corruption, but the children of those greedy individuals end up seeking higher education abroad, where they then see democratic nations, and envy them. So the same money/greed/corruption of their parents will inevitably be their parents undoing, its a vicious cycle, sure to repeat throughout history.

[DrTuner]

51 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

very similar to what's happening in HK and China, new generation don't want their rights taken away... old generation usually are not bothered by the current situation, unfortunately lack of ambition

The older ones might be counting on croaking before the situation gets really bad.

[neeray]

8 hours ago, lipflipper said:

This clown and Thaksin clone finally came to that rather obvious conclusion?? Unbelievable just how ignorant and ill prepared he is for any Public Office. Seem like every time he opens his yap dribble just comes out.

Sent from my CMR-AL19 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

The only "obvious conclusion" that I can see here is that you have incorrectly concluded whom Thanathorn was talking about.

"Clown", wow. "Ignorant"! Your view quite differs from the majority.

So if he speaks "dribble", what do you call what comes out of the General's mouth? Please tell.

 

"lipflipper" ..... I like. Great screen name for you.

[greeneking]

7 hours ago, FarFlungFalang said:

A "good country" to me that would be one that works to reduce the gap between the rich and the poor (like sharing) rather than working to increase the gap between rich and poor (selfish,arrogant,self righteous and superior).

The highest 'wais' to the people who deserve respect the least.  Compulsory praise for folks sucking up the treasury and re-investing abroard.

[ramr]

6 hours ago, Fex Bluse said:

 

I think Asians in particular, with the high priority they place for societal harmony, are not well-suited to the conflict that Democracy necessitates. 

 

It's a high priority on SURFACE harmony, that's their dirty little secret.  

 

Passive aggression is still aggression.  And it can be just as destabilizing as the overt variety.

 

But all your points are well-taken.

Edited July 17, 2019 by ramr

[elliss]

16 hours ago, ezzra said:

Help to fight for democracy without work permit and correct visa? 

the day Thai people will fight for foreigners to better and ease the draconian visa/permit rules making their life difficult and cumbersome, that will be the day foreigners will feel safe enough to help shape democracy in Thailand... 

 

  What Thai people fail to understand is foreigners , were not born rich people.

 Our aged fathers fought, and died for democracy , and a decent living wage.  

Thai people , do not have the courage to rebel and fight, for their freedom. 

    No offence intended , Thai culture etc...  

 

    

Edited July 17, 2019 by elliss
spelling

[mikebell]

23 hours ago, Joker Man said:

And does he thinks he is doing the right thing? 

As far as he is concerned, staying in power, keeping the masses poor and uneducated IS the right thing (for him & his cronies.)

[Mavideol]

13 hours ago, elliss said:

 

  What Thai people fail to understand is foreigners , were not born rich people.

 Our aged fathers fought, and died for democracy , and a decent living wage.  

Thai people , do not have the courage to rebel and fight, for their freedom. 

    No offence intended , Thai culture etc...  

 

    

been around more than a couple of countries in Asia and it always amazes me how they all think we westerns/foreigners are born rich, even tried to explain (your above comment) to some unfortunately didn't fit their brains