Where digital nomads can legally work in Asia

[LivinLOS]

25 minutes ago, Unify said:

By this logic, the fact that they require some travelers to carry ฿20,000 into the country shows clearly that they don't want people with credit cards to enter the country.

 

My guess is that some of the higher ups don't really understand online workers, and others don't know what to do about it.

 

Let'sface it. If you are a sales rep on vacation, and your colleague from back home emails and asks where you left the TPS report, if you answer, you're technically breaking the law, right?

 

Or what if you're on the beach working on the TPS report? Responding to a customer inquiry?

 

Does anyone really think the laws are in place to prevent people from doing these kinds of things? I don't.

These people who are 'on holiday' and have a work email.. Thats why Thailand has a problem legislating this.. These are not the same people doing years worth of back to back visa runs trying to stay here.. One is a real short stay tourist, who on holiday has incidentally some work, the other is a non tax paying resident, avoiding all the obligations that Thailand puts in place to get people to legally work here. 
 

Quote

Add to this, there are many people openly operating YouTube channels, in Thailand. They're shooting video in Thailand, and talking about Thailand. Some of them have even interacted with the police about various matters. No one from immigration seems interested in this, as obvious as it is.

You mean like My mate nate ?? Who was in violation for not having a work permit 

 

Or https://thethaiger.com/issues-answers/asked/is-uploading-videos-to-youtube-considered-work

 

Quote

At this point there seems to be no immigration interest in people who are doing online work. Does anyone have a single, verified account of someone being in trouble with immigration for being a digital nomad?

 

You mean other than the online teacher arrested and deported.. You dont like that example for some reason ?? 

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/aussie-teacher-details-horrific-conditions-inside-thai-detention/news-story/d432a704bf0db1def6d79489ae1b830c

 

[gearbox]

4 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Right.. But no one seems to keep saying its legal to ride without a helmet, its a grey area, the law isnt clear, police dont really mind, etc etc etc 

 

Its this dishonesty about the entire thing that needs correcting.. If nomads want to admit sure, I know the law (which is why they advise not telling immigration or others, etc etc because they do know) says I cant do it, I know I am avading Thai taxes, I know I am lieing to the host country but screw em.. Well fine.. But you cant take the moral high road while obviously abusing the law of a place your a guest. 

The nomads are not evading Thai taxes, because they enter on visas which says "employment prohibited". They are not supposed to produce taxable income here, which then can be "evaded".

The Thais do care if you are taking jobs from Thais,  so the bunch of retirees here would be more in a breach with illegal (in terms of work permit) home renovations, home repairs, "helping" families with teaching English, computer literacy etc.  Do you see the nomads doing any of these? 

 

[LivinLOS]

Just now, gearbox said:

The nomads are not evading Thai taxes, because they enter on visas which says "employment prohibited". They are not supposed to produce taxable income here, which then can be "evaded".

 

They are working within the kingdom.. Any money made while doing that work is domestic income in the eyes of the law. The way in which Thailand polices that is with work permits (they used to issue them to freelance journalists, and those freelance journalists had to pay taxes, even when they sold the stories to non Thai publications.. Back in the day the highly rare 'media visa' was an exact prototype for online publishers of today, but Thailand chooses not to offer this). 

 

So by refusing to get the required legal work permit, they then evade the Thai taxes and social costs that are due. Makes not one lick of difference if thier clients are in or out of Thailand, if they are in Thailand, while they perform an activity that generates money, that is actively working and not passive income, and it needs a work permit. As the very clear breakdown over the youtube blogger I linked already shows. 

https://thethaiger.com/issues-answers/asked/is-uploading-videos-to-youtube-considered-work

 

No, it isn’t, as long as the uploading is for fun or to share on social media networks publicly for free. However, if you turn on YouTube ads while living in Thailand, or post them in your own blog where they can collect revenue, this could be considered work. Even if you posted videos while outside Thailand, but then activated or turned on ads related to them, this would still be considered work, as you would be making money while in the country. It means you are working while you are living in the Kingdom. However, if you activated the ads before entering the country, but still received revenue once entering the country for your holiday, then this would not be considered as working while staying in Thailand.

Yaowapa Pibulpol, chief of Phuket Provincial Employment Office (PPEO).

 

[Mikisteel]

This is is all a crock of shit.

 

I'm affiliated with 5 companies in the UK as a certified Security expert. I've never sat in a board meeting my name is simply on the board for the purposes of validation to ensure those companies have the right people in place for credence. I get paid for this use of credentials through a business invoice. Writers regularly come to Thailand to zone into writing mode. What's the difference. It's the future but it maybe does not belong in this 50+ demographic website. 

[WalkingOrders]

Sorry I dont get it. A digital nomad, sitting in a cafe in Thailand....building a website, writing code, or whatever, for a customer somewhere outside of Thailand, paid to an account outside of Thailand, this is not considered work by Thai authorities, nor do they have a clue about your personal business. Even if foreign deposits come into a thai bank, the threshold is very high before auth look to stop it. Far above what you would be doing, designed to stop baht speculation.....so this whole conversation is a non issue. 

[rosst]

12 hours ago, Sticky Wicket said:

Me too, there are a lot of jealous dinosaurs on this forum who had a slog away for 50 years and hate to see young blokes enjoying themselves here.

I know in my local community there are quite a few who are envious of me & over the years have said so to my face. 

I just laugh at them and their BP goes through the roof!

The world has changed with clouds all over the world, people can work remotely wherever they want to.

 

What you say is true and I hope you are making provision for your retirement as you may eventually  need it. 

You don't sound like a very nice person but I wish you luck. 

[Mikisteel]

As an avid reader of this forum for nearly 5 years and a contributor for the last few months I must ask:

 

What happened to the OP's older woman with a young child in chiang mai?

 

The OP was apparently a 25 year old Asian American who appeared Thai, had the language down had a 40 year old <deleted> and her daughter living as happily married in chiang mai.

 

How's it going?

 

 

[PingRoundTheWorld]

19 hours ago, scorecard said:

There's always the point that wherever you live you are using the local infrastructure, roads, hospitals etc., paid for from local taxpayers funds, therefore everybody working in that country and using the infrastructure should be contributing to tax collections. 

So? If you are bringing in money from overseas and spending it locally you are supporting the local economy, paying sales and other locals taxes, and essentially supporting the local infrastructure doing so. I don't get grumpy people who complain about digital nomads and taxes - digital nomads tend to be young, use very little infrastructure, and pay their way through what they do use. And you'd be surprised how many digital nomads do pay taxes back in their home country.

[meand]

20 hours ago, scorecard said:

There's always the point that wherever you live you are using the local infrastructure, roads, hospitals etc., paid for from local taxpayers funds, therefore everybody working in that country and using the infrastructure should be contributing to tax collections. 

That sounds great and all, but you are pretty much just giving your money away to produce bombs, kill people and start unjustified, profit driven regime change wars. Of course i am talking about the usa only herehttps://www.pgpf.org/chart-archive/0070_Discretionary-Breakdown

 

If they did things like concentrate on buolding roads and healthcare for citizens, i would be on board as you say. But they dont do that, not even close. 

[Shoban]

Malaysia is welcoming digital nomads under the Malaysia My Second Home (MM2H) scheme.

 

It used to be a 'retirement' programme but has since gone through a major revamp and welcomes anyone 'above 21' for this very reason. 

 

A couple of notable nomads have made the move including recently one from Singapore to Malaysia.

 

Big plus over Thailand is the language and work culture. I met a Swiss guy couple weeks back been working in Bangkok and (his words) he said he is tired of the lacks work culture in Thailand where nothing seems to ever get done. Kuala Lumpur is vastly different with many different tech clusters and co-working spaces all over the city.

 

English is also the second language of the country and in the city you could very well think it is their first language.

 

Anyway, you can find more about the MM2H scheme at www.movetomalaysia.co.uk

Edited July 29, 2019 by Shoban

[easydoesit]

There cannot be anyone dumber than a virtue signaling pretentious American millennial whining

and complaining about his treatment by the locals and asking for suggestions of which countries would allow him to work tax free while at the same time criticizing the Thai Govt for not enforcing tax laws as "most Thai people don't pay taxes anyway."...

Now if I was a member of the Thailand Tax Authority trying to manage tax collection in Thailand and I happened to read this asshats ignorant and misinformed comments, I would feel compelled to found out where specifically in Chiang Mai he is working and pay him a visit..just to make sure that he is following the non resident tax rules while living in the country and to fine the shit out of him for any undeclared Thailand based income that he may have earned and did not feel obliged to pay taxes on...Not saying he is breaking the law, just saying I would pay him a visit just to put his big mouth on notice and tell him to stay away from bad mouthing the country and its people on social media and on public forums, unless he wanted to get banned for violating Thai civil laws.

[amykat]

This whole topic and LivinginLos extreme viewpoint has become him shilling for this company that essentially sells you another way to get a visa and be legal? here.  He must be one of the owners, or the owner.

 

After you read him banging on and on, suddenly Mr legal tight ass, rules are rules ....I want to see how he handles all so called laws in Thailand, and what he did BEFORE now.  I don’t think he is being honest anyway, he is selling you all something.  His current interpretation is all self serving BS.

 

And by the way, sometimes governments purposely allow things, no matter if there is a law against it or not.  As I think we all know.

[Dnyy]

14 hours ago, sunnyboy2018 said:

So we can all give up income tax in our home countries because we pay other taxes? DMs are just scroungers and blodgers wanting a free ride....basically illegal immigrants.  But from wealthy,  democratic countries.

Most ignorant comment and user of the year award nominee.

[Dnyy]

14 minutes ago, easydoesit said:

I would pay him a visit just to put his big mouth on notice and tell him to stay away from bad mouthing the country and its people on social media and on public forums, unless he wanted to get banned for violating Thai civil laws.

Wow big words from such a nobody. You must be very tough.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Dnyy

[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, Mikisteel said:

This is is all a crock of shit.

 

I'm affiliated with 5 companies in the UK as a certified Security expert. I've never sat in a board meeting my name is simply on the board for the purposes of validation to ensure those companies have the right people in place for credence. I get paid for this use of credentials through a business invoice. Writers regularly come to Thailand to zone into writing mode. What's the difference. It's the future but it maybe does not belong in this 50+ demographic website. 

If you do no actual work but are paid a retainer, like a writer paid a royalty, a work permit isnt needed.. Thats passive income.

 

If you do actual work for them, you do.. Thats active income. 

 

Its not rocket science. 

 

One genuinely grey area is management, Thailand says incountry you can manage employees without a work permit.. The bar owner can sit on the customers side of the bar, telling his Thai staff what to do, drinking with the customers and not be foul of the law. Now how does managing a project performed by other people come into that, it wouldnt be accepted a Thai office situation despite them clearly saying its ok to manage or monitor engaged workers in the other situation.. Those are the genuine kind of hard to nail down parts. 

 

Edited July 29, 2019 by LivinLOS

[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, WalkingOrders said:

Sorry I dont get it. A digital nomad, sitting in a cafe in Thailand....building a website, writing code, or whatever, for a customer somewhere outside of Thailand, paid to an account outside of Thailand, this is not considered work by Thai authorities, nor do they have a clue about your personal business. Even if foreign deposits come into a thai bank, the threshold is very high before auth look to stop it. Far above what you would be doing, designed to stop baht speculation.....so this whole conversation is a non issue. 

https://thethaiger.com/issues-answers/asked/do-i-need-a-business-visa-to-work-online  

Is earning money through online advertising, website affiliate marketing or operating a business that has only an online presence whilst staying in Thailand considered working? Would that person be required to have a “business visa”?

Ting Tong Farang, Phuket Town

Any foreigners working or starting a business in Thailand, online or off, need to first get a proper visa.

They can apply for a Non-Immigrant B visa at a Royal Thai Embassy in their home country.

Once they get it they can come to Thailand and apply for a work permit with the Department of Employment.

If we find out that a foreigner is doing business online without a work permit, we will arrest them and take legal action through the court.

Pol Col Panuwat Ruamrak, Superintendent of Phuket Immigration

Doing business online is considered a type of work, so foreigners are required to have a work permit to do so.

The first thing to do is get the proper business visa. Foreigners with any other type of visa generally cannot apply for a work permit.

An exception to that rule is made for foreigners legally married to Thai citizens.

For more information on the visas and documents required to apply for a work permit, we advise foreigners to contact us or the Department of Employment in the area they live.

We need detailed information from the foreigner before advising on further action.

Please call Phuket Department of Employment at 076-219660-1 ext 13 for further information.

Somkiat Baiadul, an officer at the work permit division of the Phuket Department of Employment

[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, PingRoundTheWorld said:

So? If you are bringing in money from overseas and spending it locally you are supporting the local economy, paying sales and other locals taxes, and essentially supporting the local infrastructure doing so. I don't get grumpy people who complain about digital nomads and taxes - digital nomads tend to be young, use very little infrastructure, and pay their way through what they do use. And you'd be surprised how many digital nomads do pay taxes back in their home country.

You dont get to tell countries what laws you want to obey and what laws you dont. 

 

A host country has every right to say this is our tax code, we control that tax code and working rights by use of work permits, and those are only given if you follow these rules.. To knowingly just abuse the visa system and hospitality of a host country when those rules are so clear, is insulting. 

[LivinLOS]

33 minutes ago, Shoban said:

Malaysia is welcoming digital nomads under the Malaysia My Second Home (MM2H) scheme.

 

It used to be a 'retirement' programme but has since gone through a major revamp and welcomes anyone 'above 21' for this very reason. 

 

A couple of notable nomads have made the move including recently one from Singapore to Malaysia.

 

Big plus over Thailand is the language and work culture. I met a Swiss guy couple weeks back been working in Bangkok and (his words) he said he is tired of the lacks work culture in Thailand where nothing seems to ever get done. Kuala Lumpur is vastly different with many different tech clusters and co-working spaces all over the city.

 

English is also the second language of the country and in the city you could very well think it is their first language.

 

Anyway, you can find more about the MM2H scheme at www.movetomalaysia.co.uk

That only solves the visa.. Last I looked into it Malaysia was similar to Thailand in how it handled needing a local employer for non national to work incountry. 

I am not aware of any umbrella like systems for Malaysia either. 

[Don Chance]

If you want to be a proper Digital Warrior you need  a second passport and a third country with a bank account. That way your earnings go into a lower tax country instead of your home country.  And it is perfectly legal.

 

Thailand or any other country maybe be aware of what you are doing online so it would be a good idea to us a VPN.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Don Chance

[LivinLOS]

17 minutes ago, amykat said:

This whole topic and LivinginLos extreme viewpoint has become him shilling for this company that essentially sells you another way to get a visa and be legal? here.  He must be one of the owners, or the owner.

 

After you read him banging on and on, suddenly Mr legal tight ass, rules are rules ....I want to see how he handles all so called laws in Thailand, and what he did BEFORE now.  I don’t think he is being honest anyway, he is selling you all something.  His current interpretation is all self serving BS.

 

And by the way, sometimes governments purposely allow things, no matter if there is a law against it or not.  As I think we all know.

I have no connection to iglu other than have considered running a couple of 1000 through them monthly to make me eligible for citizenship after 3 years. 

[stephen tracy]

3 hours ago, Shoban said:

Malaysia is welcoming digital nomads under the Malaysia My Second Home (MM2H) scheme.

 

It used to be a 'retirement' programme but has since gone through a major revamp and welcomes anyone 'above 21' for this very reason. 

 

A couple of notable nomads have made the move including recently one from Singapore to Malaysia.

 

Big plus over Thailand is the language and work culture. I met a Swiss guy couple weeks back been working in Bangkok and (his words) he said he is tired of the lacks work culture in Thailand where nothing seems to ever get done. Kuala Lumpur is vastly different with many different tech clusters and co-working spaces all over the city.

 

English is also the second language of the country and in the city you could very well think it is their first language.

 

Anyway, you can find more about the MM2H scheme at www.movetomalaysia.co.uk

Thanks for the link @Shoban. I'll take a look.

[LivinLOS]

3 minutes ago, Don Chance said:

If you want to be a proper Digital Warrior you need  a second passport and a third country with a bank account. That way your earnings go into a lower tax country instead of your home country.  And it is perfectly legal.

 

Thailand or any other country maybe be aware of what you are doing online so it would be a good idea to us a VPN.

easy to do the same with using a corporate structure in a low tax company and employing yourself from the corporate structure.. A lot cheaper and easier for most folks than getting a second citizenship. 

But nice to see your admitting the need to hide behind VPNs etc.. 

[stephen tracy]

3 hours ago, Don Chance said:

If you want to be a proper Digital Warrior you need  a second passport and a third country with a bank account. That way your earnings go into a lower tax country instead of your home country.  And it is perfectly legal.

 

Thailand or any other country maybe be aware of what you are doing online so it would be a good idea to us a VPN.

I've always used a Thai bank account for my salary to be paid into. I move it around after that to a couple of different accounts. I still use it now even though I haven't been to Thailand in about 18 months. Perhaps I ought to think about having it paid into a different account. 

[elliss]

14 hours ago, sunnyboy2018 said:

So we can all give up income tax in our home countries because we pay other taxes? DMs are just scroungers and blodgers wanting a free ride....basically illegal immigrants.  But from wealthy,  democratic countries.

 

Much the same as self employed tax dodgers in the UK .

   Living of the tax payers , contributions. Takers.

 

Edited July 29, 2019 by elliss

[SS1]

3 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

And yet thats exactly what these threads are repeatedly about.. 

 

'Successful nomads' who somehow cant afford a few 100 bucks a month in costs to have the red carpet treatment of a BOI umbrella company.. And whose time is better spent begging visas around the region, doing ED courses, doing self defense courses etc. Their valuable time is best spent seeking all these short stay options it seems. 

 

Theres plenty who do it legally, and arrange a work permit and have the right visa.. For them its easy, but thats not the subject of these threads is it ???

 

4 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

 

But these successful people and talented remote employees would rather spend days travelling round asia begging the latest short stay visa, waste large parts of thier working week in ED classes or self defense, instead of paying a small fee to be legal.. 

 

See how that doesnt add up ??? Successful people have a value on thier time, they dont tolerate the nonsense of constant border hops and lies to obtain visas. They pay for a service using something thier time generates for them in short order. 

I agree that you've got a point there (to some degree). Those DNs who are successful enough will usually find means for a long term visa without needing to do constant visa runs or enroll on a Thai cooking class to be able to stay long term. 

It should be noted though that not all DNs qualify for the said BOI Umbrella companies; the reputable ones have very strict criteria in terms of scope of work allowed, as well as experience/degree requirements. It's not clear whether OP would be actually able to use one of these. 

Let's say for example a remote employee specialising in law earning $4,000 per month, wishing to stay for two years in Chiang Mai. They wouldn't qualify for a BOI umbrella company and paying 500k for the Elite visa wouldn't really make sense either. So it's not always black and white.. 

[bergan]

12 hours ago, RAZZELL said:

That is were you are wrong again. I suggest you use a bit of "critical thinking" yourself.

 

Selfish millennial or any "digital nomads" fail to contribute to greater society as a whole by not paying direct taxation where they live. What pays for the police, public infrastructure etc etc? Oh yeah, direct taxation!

 

So yes is does effect me and others because they aren't paying their share.

 

But then again..."It's all about me"...with no thought of the greater good and personal social responsibility.

 

RAZZ

 

 

 

You seem to forget that most people working online would actually prefer to pay taxes and stay legally, which is possible for some (through Iglu or similar) but not for others. Many are people with a family, who are actually criminalized due to draconian and ancient laws. One of the major problems in Thailand, is that they have ancient laws that are not adapted to the age we are currently living in, applying laws from 1950 or so when the world was completely different.

 

Freelance translators is one example, how come a Bosnian to English (or vice versa) translator can not stay here and pay taxes, getting a proper visa? He or she would not be taking any jobs away at all, apart from maybe the odd Thai who might have been brought up in Bosnia and then decided to move back to the original country. That's just one example, but I am sure there are many others.

 

 

[emptypockets]

Don't nomads, digital or otherwise, by definition move around? Constantly?

Or are we back to the backpacker with a laptop definition yet again?

I suspect so.

[emptypockets]

13 hours ago, Sticky Wicket said:

I wonder what percentage of elite visa holders are digital nomads.

More than 95% imo

I very much doubt that. Do you have verifiable figures, From what I have seen most digital nomads are young and broke. Nothing wrong with that...we have all been there.

[bergan]

33 minutes ago, emptypockets said:

Don't nomads, digital or otherwise, by definition move around? Constantly?

Or are we back to the backpacker with a laptop definition yet again?

I suspect so.

I think we're back to any person working online being derogatory named a digital nomad again, which is evident from a lot of the posts in this thread.

[BananaBandit]

14 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Cambodia, allows a long stay working visa easily, but seems to have no way to have a fully legal work permit without domestic engagement. Much like Thailand theres no enforcement and the possession of a working visa, and no cambodian business would seem tolerated more than Thailand. 
PI is again similar, B visa possible 

 

 

By "domestic engagement" ...you mean that you have to be working on behalf of a business in Cambodia ?