UK plans to end EU freedom of movement immediately in no-deal Brexit

[dick dasterdly]

4 hours ago, sandyf said:

You really ought get the facts right. Of course it is in the brexiteers interest to make out that the EU is responsible for the UK not making better use of the EU legislation that is available.

 

The lack of a surge in migrants from the two EU countries after seven years of transitional controls were lifted on 1 January 2014 confounds predictions by Ukip’s Nigel Farage and others that 5,000 Romanians and Bulgarians would arrive “each week, every week” for several years.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/dec/30/no-surge-romanian-bulgarian-migrants-controls-lifted

The article is years out of date, and the ONS was yesterday forced to admit that it under-estimated EU immigration statistics (whilst over estimating non-EU immigration) for more than a decade.....

 

But I do agree that the UK govt. also holds a large share of the blame.

Edited August 22, 2019 by dick dasterdly

[dick dasterdly]

4 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

Got it in a nutshell. I'm sure they all realise now what a disaster Brexit would be. However having nailed their Brexit flags to the mast and shouted it from the rooftops, they are now exhibiting their own special brand of Thai "face". Blaming anyone but themselves and attacking in numbers anyone who shows them up for what they are are other traits that could have been borrowed from a Thai.

 

Don't expect them to come on TV and admit their mistake, due to the extreme embarrasment, they probably can't even admit it to themselves. Just expect more meaningless rhetoric and personal attacks on anyone who dares to speak the truth.

"Just expect more meaningless rhetoric and personal attacks on anyone who dares to speak the truth."

 

I'd like to think you're joking (re. the insults thrown by brexiters and remainers on this forum) - but of course you're not ????????!

 

And similarly, it comes as no suprise that you are convinced that only those who support your POV are posting "the truth".....

[dick dasterdly]

4 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

I agree. There is never an explanation because fundamentally the real reason is a pathological and unsubstantiated distrusts of Johnny foreigner. They hate being called racist or xenophobic but that's the real driving force behind the typical Brexiters rhetoric. There is literally no other reason as if you look at the facts; from the Working Time Directive, to the championing of better working conditions to women's equality, to global warming initiatives, clean air acts and the pushing of minimum wages throughout it's member states, this EU 'Federal State' that your typical Brexiter wants so desperately to demonize has done more for the man on the street than any UK government has in an awful long time.

'We voted leave and that's what democracy demands!' sounds much better than 'I've been racist/xenophobic/Islamophobic all my life and this gets me what I want'. 

I have called out many a Brexiter on this forum when they have slipped their mask (have a look at my Post 192 on this thread) and shown their true identity but it never matters. They continue on in with their uninspiring rhetoric and pseudo facts, cheering on the upper class as they literally drive the UK off an economic cliff. 

They have seen their UK pensions dwindle as the pound slowly but surely collapses. They are seeing every major economist warn of the disaster of a no-deal. You see health leaders warning of chaos. The NHS stockpiling medicines and desperate about staffing levels. The CBI and TUC all warning about a no-deal Brexit yet they just don't care passing it off as 'Project Fear".. as long as those pesky foreigners are kept out, and the Federalist Superstate is brought to heel, economic and social disaster is a small price to pay.

 

I'm done with them and their selfish, myopic idiocy. There's no changing them. There's no real debate. The will quite happily let the UK burn for generations to come because of right-wing propaganda that played perfectly to their echo chambers. I only wish they would at least have the guts to admit it.

"There is never an explanation because fundamentally the real reason is a pathological and unsubstantiated distrusts of Johnny foreigner. They hate being called racist or xenophobic but that's the real driving force behind the typical Brexiters rhetoric."

 

An appalling comment, that I've no doubt you genuinely believe - as remainers rely heavily in the racist 'card'..... ☹️

 

Sad, as there have been many excellent articles that explained how brexit/Trump 'happened' - but of course most remainers prefer to rely on 'racist'......

[bristolboy]

On 8/21/2019 at 10:21 AM, luckyluke said:

Right, you'r still waiting and Parliament wasn't/isn't convinced it was/is a priority.

 

So this seems to prove what I wrote here above.

 

But apparently this will all change with Mr. Johnson,

a man from and for the " man in the street ". 

"Born in New York City to upper-middle class British parents, Johnson was educated at the European School, Brussels I, Ashdown House, and Eton College. He read Classics at Balliol College, Oxford, where he was elected President of the Oxford Union in 1986."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Johnson

 

The must be one beautifully paved street.

[CG1 Blue]

4 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

I agree. There is never an explanation because fundamentally the real reason is a pathological and unsubstantiated distrusts of Johnny foreigner. They hate being called racist or xenophobic but that's the real driving force behind the typical Brexiters rhetoric. There is literally no other reason as if you look at the facts; from the Working Time Directive, to the championing of better working conditions to women's equality, to global warming initiatives, clean air acts and the pushing of minimum wages throughout it's member states, this EU 'Federal State' that your typical Brexiter wants so desperately to demonize has done more for the man on the street than any UK government has in an awful long time.

'We voted leave and that's what democracy demands!' sounds much better than 'I've been racist/xenophobic/Islamophobic all my life and this gets me what I want'. 

I have called out many a Brexiter on this forum when they have slipped their mask (have a look at my Post 192 on this thread) and shown their true identity but it never matters. They continue on in with their uninspiring rhetoric and pseudo facts, cheering on the upper class as they literally drive the UK off an economic cliff. 

They have seen their UK pensions dwindle as the pound slowly but surely collapses. They are seeing every major economist warn of the disaster of a no-deal. You see health leaders warning of chaos. The NHS stockpiling medicines and desperate about staffing levels. The CBI and TUC all warning about a no-deal Brexit yet they just don't care passing it off as 'Project Fear".. as long as those pesky foreigners are kept out, and the Federalist Superstate is brought to heel, economic and social disaster is a small price to pay.

 

I'm done with them and their selfish, myopic idiocy. There's no changing them. There's no real debate. The will quite happily let the UK burn for generations to come because of right-wing propaganda that played perfectly to their echo chambers. I only wish they would at least have the guts to admit it.

Right wing propaganda? Do you really think the EU is a lefty/socialist thing? The likes of Tony Benn and (believe it or not) Jeremy Corbyn never saw it that way! Billions of wasted money on vanity projects, corruption, lobbying by all the multi-nationals, officials on huge salaries, auditing irregularities. The EU is a god-send for the huge global conglomerates.

 

As for your suggestion that Brexit is all about racism, that's just lazy and ill informed. 

[sandyf]

44 minutes ago, <deleted> dasterdly said:

The article is years out of date, and the ONS was yesterday forced to admit that it under-estimated EU immigration statistics (whilst over estimating non-EU immigration) for more than a decade.....

 

But I do agree that the UK govt. also holds a large share of the blame.

The history books prove that time does not make facts out of date, Farage was on the immigration soap box and proved once again to be wrong.

The fact is the UK has always had the ability to control entry to the UK, as they did with Romania and Bulgaria for 7 years.

 

Farage and Johnson are the real proponents of Project Fear with their unfounded assertions.

 

“There are numerous examples of Johnson raising the spectre of Turkish accession to the EU during the referendum campaign, including Vote Leave material that made the ludicrous assertion that 75 million Turks, meaning the entire population of Turkey, would soon be arriving in the UK. 

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-claims-he-didnt-say-anything-about-turkey-in-the-referendum-but-he-did_uk_5c41aac4e4b027c3bbc07595?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAI05BoblJbDdkLhA8-qkyffiCRxOpJqfJ0BMz3WHpBWKwcyeL9Phb5NJr48f_CuL_QPz8-SEsDWWySTxVmTeybRKhVPeUbCNGx1DzaETy3ipDHrWwQLeIfiuKdAr9qYL0Tv49lKvRjbVrPEOWjZAxL5C5A1GFgmzy8otWAi1git6

[sandyf]

4 hours ago, St George said:

I can't imagine any reason why Macron would wish to put an obstacle in the way of finding a workable solution to the Irish backstop.

 

The backstop is the solution, the UK have been incapable of an alternative solution to the problem.

They have this naive idea if you take away the solution the problem will disappear.

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, Loiner said:

You made the ‘picking’ allegation. It was the point of your post. How did that become part of the context?

Wrong, you chose to ignore the point and go off at a tangent.

[stephenterry]

1 hour ago, <deleted> dasterdly said:

"There is never an explanation because fundamentally the real reason is a pathological and unsubstantiated distrusts of Johnny foreigner. They hate being called racist or xenophobic but that's the real driving force behind the typical Brexiters rhetoric."

 

An appalling comment, that I've no doubt you genuinely believe - as remainers rely heavily in the racist 'card'..... ☹️

 

Sad, as there have been many excellent articles that explained how brexit/Trump 'happened' - but of course most remainers prefer to rely on 'racist'......

I'm not a racist, DD. And I don't support Brexit in its current form of threatening a no-deal solution which is a folly of the largest magnitude, for the very reason it would ruin the UK economy and deflate sterling even further than today. And yes, it would adversely affect me and my family.

 

As a generalisation, all cards are in play - even the  racist one - and the essence of JB's post is the current reality even though it doesn't sit comfortably with any leaver, who act like ostriches when faced with a factual situation - and who can never demonstrate what benefits would occur to the man in the street with the enactment of Brexit. 

 

I trust you would be flexible enough to accept my viewpoint as being the closest to reality as at today.  

Edited August 22, 2019 by stephenterry
correction

[bristolboy]

2 hours ago, <deleted> dasterdly said:

The article is years out of date, and the ONS was yesterday forced to admit that it under-estimated EU immigration statistics (whilst over estimating non-EU immigration) for more than a decade.....

 

But I do agree that the UK govt. also holds a large share of the blame.

Whether it was forced or not, it did revise its figures upward by 16%. That hardly compares to estimates of 5000 per week from just Romanians and Bulgarians

"The ONS said new analysis showed that in 2015-16, EU net migration - the difference between people arriving and leaving - was 16% higher (29,000) than first thought.

This means an increase in the estimate of EU migration from 178,000 to 207,000 for the year ending March 2016.

Net migration from outside the EU was 13% (25,000) lower, because more foreign students left than previously estimated."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49420730

[Johnyo]

That means nothing regarding your comment..

Well it covers the fact that I don’t need to make any money to live in Spain or in the UK and I’m bilingual so can order more than a beer.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Johnyo]

That means nothing regarding your comment..

Oh I see you were asking me if I’m a cheap Charlie, no I’m 47 retired in Thailand and a GBP millionaire.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[wabothai]

As citizens of the EU, when we want to enter the kingdom we only would have to show our passports.

No big deal. Its about illegal immigrants (non EU), isn't it?

[kingdong]

14 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Marvelous, so you make reference to a Hague Convention (there are many Hague Conventions), so I ask you which one and how do you think it applies, you then tell me to look it up.

 

You are correct, you are not my ‘joey’ you’re a troll.

 

Away with your nonsense references that you can’t provide a reference to.

you,re the troll,some one says something you don,t agree with and you insult them,just grow up,we,re leaving the eu as i said why not look it up yourself,got better things to do with my time.

[kingdong]

9 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

I agree. There is never an explanation because fundamentally the real reason is a pathological and unsubstantiated distrusts of Johnny foreigner. They hate being called racist or xenophobic but that's the real driving force behind the typical Brexiters rhetoric. There is literally no other reason as if you look at the facts; from the Working Time Directive, to the championing of better working conditions to women's equality, to global warming initiatives, clean air acts and the pushing of minimum wages throughout it's member states, this EU 'Federal State' that your typical Brexiter wants so desperately to demonize has done more for the man on the street than any UK government has in an awful long time.

'We voted leave and that's what democracy demands!' sounds much better than 'I've been racist/xenophobic/Islamophobic all my life and this gets me what I want'. 

I have called out many a Brexiter on this forum when they have slipped their mask (have a look at my Post 192 on this thread) and shown their true identity but it never matters. They continue on in with their uninspiring rhetoric and pseudo facts, cheering on the upper class as they literally drive the UK off an economic cliff. 

They have seen their UK pensions dwindle as the pound slowly but surely collapses. They are seeing every major economist warn of the disaster of a no-deal. You see health leaders warning of chaos. The NHS stockpiling medicines and desperate about staffing levels. The CBI and TUC all warning about a no-deal Brexit yet they just don't care passing it off as 'Project Fear".. as long as those pesky foreigners are kept out, and the Federalist Superstate is brought to heel, economic and social disaster is a small price to pay.

 

I'm done with them and their selfish, myopic idiocy. There's no changing them. There's no real debate. The will quite happily let the UK burn for generations to come because of right-wing propaganda that played perfectly to their echo chambers. I only wish they would at least have the guts to admit it.

you,re done with them?thank <deleted> for that,you,re right though planes will crash out the sky,and wars will break out all over europe,they,ll impose sanctions on us to punish us,we,re all doomed.

[CG1 Blue]

4 hours ago, sandyf said:

The backstop is the solution, the UK have been incapable of an alternative solution to the problem.

They have this naive idea if you take away the solution the problem will disappear.

The backstop is not a solution.  The backstop is simply an insurance policy. We're told that the EU will work with the UK to find a permanent solution to the border issue, and it will take around 2 years. 

My question would be, why have the EU/Ireland not worked with the UK over the past 3 years to find that permanent solution? I think it's because they want to keep the UK tied to the UK.

The UK can't work out the solution while the EU/Ireland don't want a solution. Government think tank Prosperity UK are trying (link below), but until the EU/Ireland let go of the idea they can keep the UK tied in it's an almost impossible job. 

 

https://www.prosperity-uk.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2019/06/AAC-Interim-Report.pdf

 

[7by7]

5 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

Billions of wasted money on vanity projects, corruption, lobbying by all the multi-nationals, officials on huge salaries, auditing irregularities.

 A good summery of Boris Jonson's 8 years as London mayor!

 

The controversial and hugely expensive process of finding a post games tenant for the Olympic stadium AND the £23 million wasted on his garden bridge project being just two examples which spring to mind.

[stevenl]

2 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

The backstop is not a solution.  The backstop is simply an insurance policy. We're told that the EU will work with the UK to find a permanent solution to the border issue, and it will take around 2 years. 

My question would be, why have the EU/Ireland not worked with the UK over the past 3 years to find that permanent solution? I think it's because they want to keep the UK tied to the UK.

The UK can't work out the solution while the EU/Ireland don't want a solution. Government think tank Prosperity UK are trying (link below), but until the EU/Ireland let go of the idea they can keep the UK tied in it's an almost impossible job. 

 

https://www.prosperity-uk.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2019/06/AAC-Interim-Report.pdf

 

Yes, we know. The UK has come up with suggestion after suggestion, but the evil EU has rejected them all out of hand. Bad EU.

 

It really is time you look at the process since the vote and the (in) action of the UK. And put the blame there, where it should be.

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

Yes, we know. The UK has come up with suggestion after suggestion, but the evil EU has rejected them all out of hand. Bad EU.

 

It really is time you look at the process since the vote and the (in) action of the UK. And put the blame there, where it should be.

So tell me, have the EU/Ireland tried to help find the long term solution? After all, the EU specifically tell us a solution is necessary to preserve the integrity of the Single Market after the UK leaves. That's the EU Single Market. Why have they not proactively worked with the UK on this? 

On that evidence we can't possibly trust the EU / Ireland to work with us on that over the next couple of years in order to remove the backstop eventually.  

 

[Loiner]

Wrong, you chose to ignore the point and go off at a tangent.

Well I’m obviously not on the same tangent as you. What is your point? You think I pick FOM for the NI border but pick some thing else for Calais. Not so.
I’m happy to pick and choose from the EU cherry tree but FOM is not one that I would pick anytime.
Please explain clearly and put me on your tangent because you are not orbiting the same circle.

[kingdong]

4 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 A good summery of Boris Jonson's 8 years as London mayor!

 

The controversial and hugely expensive process of finding a post games tenant for the Olympic stadium AND the £23 million wasted on his garden bridge project being just two examples which spring to mind.

labour was in power when britains bid to host the olympic games was put in,and what a white elephant that turned out, just like the dome.

[simple1]

UK cannot end Freedom of Movement on Brexit Day.

 

Migration experts say the UK cannot end freedom of movement from the EU on Brexit day because it has no system to work out who is legally in the country.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49433027

 

 

[transam]

14 hours ago, Johnyo said:

Oh I see you were asking me if I’m a cheap Charlie, no I’m 47 retired in Thailand and a GBP millionaire.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

And you look down on folk that earn less than 37,000e or quid because you have retired with some cash.......Typical....????

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Whether it was forced or not, it did revise its figures upward by 16%. That hardly compares to estimates of 5000 per week from just Romanians and Bulgarians

"The ONS said new analysis showed that in 2015-16, EU net migration - the difference between people arriving and leaving - was 16% higher (29,000) than first thought.

This means an increase in the estimate of EU migration from 178,000 to 207,000 for the year ending March 2016.

Net migration from outside the EU was 13% (25,000) lower, because more foreign students left than previously estimated."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49420730

Doesn't this highlight how incompetent the government has been over immigration and lack of credible information, but the EU takes the flak.

[sandyf]

12 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

The backstop is not a solution.  The backstop is simply an insurance policy.

 

One and the same, any insurance policy is a solution, normally to resolve the problem of a potential lack of funds.

 

I order to find a solution you have to recognise the problem, something the brexiteers are refusing to do. Basically speaking different regulations either side of a border means infrastucture. That is why with the backstop solution it was proposed that NI remains in a customs union until some other trade agreement was established.

The UK have consistently failed to provide any other form of solution.

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

One and the same, any insurance policy is a solution, normally to resolve the problem of a potential lack of funds.

 

I order to find a solution you have to recognise the problem, something the brexiteers are refusing to do. Basically speaking different regulations either side of a border means infrastucture. That is why with the backstop solution it was proposed that NI remains in a customs union until some other trade agreement was established.

The UK have consistently failed to provide any other form of solution.

"That is why with the backstop solution it was proposed that NI remains in a customs union until some other trade agreement was established."

 

Plus the rest of the UK.... 

 

The 'deal' also ensures that the UK remains within the EU (no voting rights, but still paying membership fees) until both the UK and EU agree that that the issue has been resolved.  If I understand correctly.

 

And clearly there is no reason for the EU to agree any solution- as this would stop the UK paying full fees into the EU.....

[cleopatra2]

51 minutes ago, <deleted> dasterdly said:

"That is why with the backstop solution it was proposed that NI remains in a customs union until some other trade agreement was established."

 

Plus the rest of the UK.... 

 

The 'deal' also ensures that the UK remains within the EU (no voting rights, but still paying membership fees) until both the UK and EU agree that that the issue has been resolved.  If I understand correctly.

 

And clearly there is no reason for the EU to agree any solution- as this would stop the UK paying full fees into the EU.....

It was the UK who requested the backstop included the rest of the UK as opposed to NI only

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, <deleted> dasterdly said:

"That is why with the backstop solution it was proposed that NI remains in a customs union until some other trade agreement was established."

 

Plus the rest of the UK.... 

 

The 'deal' also ensures that the UK remains within the EU (no voting rights, but still paying membership fees) until both the UK and EU agree that that the issue has been resolved.  If I understand correctly.

 

And clearly there is no reason for the EU to agree any solution- as this would stop the UK paying full fees into the EU.....

It was a solution that the UK government signed up to and one that Bojo voted for.

The long term solution was to come in the form of a bilateral trade agreement, something that is vapourising very rapidly.

[CG1 Blue]

7 hours ago, sandyf said:

One and the same, any insurance policy is a solution, normally to resolve the problem of a potential lack of funds.

 

I order to find a solution you have to recognise the problem, something the brexiteers are refusing to do. Basically speaking different regulations either side of a border means infrastucture. That is why with the backstop solution it was proposed that NI remains in a customs union until some other trade agreement was established.

The UK have consistently failed to provide any other form of solution.

As you say "it was proposed that NI remains in a customs union until some other trade agreement was established". We were assured that alternative arrangements would be in place within a couple of years, and the backstop could then be removed. This says to me that alternative arrangements are possible, so why didn't the EU / Ireland work with the UK on those arrangements instead? The answer is probably that the EU/Ireland would prefer to keep the UK tied in indefinitely. 

 

You'll see just how quickly alternative arrangements are put in place after 31st Oct if we leave without a deal. Where there's a will there's a way. 

[7by7]

16 hours ago, kingdong said:

21 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 A good summery of Boris Jonson's 8 years as London mayor!

 

The controversial and hugely expensive process of finding a post games tenant for the Olympic stadium AND the £23 million wasted on his garden bridge project being just two examples which spring to mind.

labour was in power when britains bid to host the olympic games was put in,and what a white elephant that turned out, just like the dome.

 

Yes, Labour was in power nationally when Ken Livingstone, as London mayor, put in London's successful bid to host the 2012 Olympics. A games which were considered by most to be a success; even Boris considered them such when he attempted to take all the credit.

 

But I wasn't talking about the games themselves; as the phrase "finding a post games tenant for the Olympic stadium" clearly indicates. You do understand what 'post games' means, don't you?

 

The dome was not as successful as John Major envisaged when his Tory government started the project. A failure due largely to the poor press it received on it's opening night when the journalists had their egos damaged because a logistical problem meant they had to wait for their luxury transport to Greenwich!

 

But you can't blame the failings of the Dome on either Boris Johnson nor the EU.

 

I notice you have ignored the money he wasted on his so called garden bridge. Unsurprising as you can't try and shift the blame for that onto anyone else!