Thailand got it right about vaping?

[elgenon]

American federal officials are investigating a national outbreak of severe lung illnesses linked to vaping. One studied agent in mixtures is diacetyl. It had been studied in popcorn-flavoring lung disease. Is nothing sacred?

[neeray]

But on what basis did Thailand oppose it? You tell me please, I really don't know. Was it because of diacetyl?

[sammieuk1]

Thailand gets only one thing right making more money for those than can never have enough ????

[elgenon]

14 minutes ago, neeray said:

But on what basis did Thailand oppose it? You tell me please, I really don't know. Was it because of diacetyl?

On the basis that the flavored tobacco leads kids to start smoking and maybe progress to cigs. 

America opposes vaping on those grounds. Even menthol cigs.

[partington]

10 hours ago, elgenon said:

On the basis that the flavored tobacco leads kids to start smoking and maybe progress to cigs. 

America opposes vaping on those grounds. Even menthol cigs.

However  research to date, at least in the UK, shows this to be an unfounded assumption:

 

[incidentally there is no tobacco, flavoured or otherwise, in e-cigarettes at all.]

E-cigarettes do not normalise smoking for young people – study

 

"Some health experts and anti-smoking groups have expressed concern that the growth of e-cigarettes might normalise the idea of smoking for young people.

But the study led by Cardiff University researchers suggests the number of teenagers who said they had tried smoking or thought it was acceptable to smoke has continued to fall despite the rise in e-cigarette use.

The study, published in the journal Tobacco Control, examined data from England, Wales and Scotland, and found that from 1998 to 2015 the percentage of children aged between 13 and 15 who had smoked decreased from 60% to 19%, while regular smokers in the same age group fell from 19% to 5%.

 

Dr Graham Moore, based at the Centre for the Development and Evaluation of Complex Interventions for Public Health Improvement, said: “These findings suggest that fears over a resurgence in youth tobacco smoking because of the rise in e-cigarette use are largely unfounded to date.

“The nature of e-cigarettes, and the landscape in which they are sold and used, continue to change rapidly, and we need to continue to keep a close eye on how they affect young people. However, this study demonstrates the success of public health efforts in reducing smoking among young people in the last 20 years and provides no evidence that e-cigarettes are reversing this.”

 

The tobacco control campaign group Ash Wales believes e-cigarettes have a crucial role to play in reducing smoking.

The group’s CEO, Suzanne Cass, said: “We welcome the results of the study and hope this will strengthen the case for e-cigarettes to be considered a highly effective smoking cessation tool and a far safer alternative to smoking tobacco, rather than the first step to becoming a smoker.”

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/apr/01/e-cigarettes-do-not-normalise-smoking-for-young-people-study

 

Tobacco Control. 2019 Apr 1. pii: tobaccocontrol-2018-054584. doi: 10.1136/tobaccocontrol-2018-054584. [Epub ahead of print]

Have e-cigarettes renormalised or displaced youth smoking? Results of a segmented regression analysis of repeated cross sectional survey data in England, Scotland and Wales.

Hallingberg B(1), Maynard OM(2), Bauld L(3), Brown R(1), Gray L(4), Lowthian E(1), MacKintosh AM(5), Moore L(4), Munafo MR(2), Moore G(1). 

(1)Centre for the Development and Evaluation of Complex Interventions for Public Health Improvement, School of Social Sciences, Cardiff University, Cardiff, UK.

Edited August 28, 2019 by partington

[elgenon]

On 8/28/2019 at 7:27 AM, partington said:

However  research to date, at least in the UK, shows this to be an unfounded assumption:

 

[incidentally there is no tobacco, flavoured or otherwise, in e-cigarettes at all.]

E-cigarettes do not normalise smoking for young people – study

 

"Some health experts and anti-smoking groups have expressed concern that the growth of e-cigarettes might normalise the idea of smoking for young people.

But the study led by Cardiff University researchers suggests the number of teenagers who said they had tried smoking or thought it was acceptable to smoke has continued to fall despite the rise in e-cigarette use.

The study, published in the journal Tobacco Control, examined data from England, Wales and Scotland, and found that from 1998 to 2015 the percentage of children aged between 13 and 15 who had smoked decreased from 60% to 19%, while regular smokers in the same age group fell from 19% to 5%.

 

Dr Graham Moore, based at the Centre for the Development and Evaluation of Complex Interventions for Public Health Improvement, said: “These findings suggest that fears over a resurgence in youth tobacco smoking because of the rise in e-cigarette use are largely unfounded to date.

“The nature of e-cigarettes, and the landscape in which they are sold and used, continue to change rapidly, and we need to continue to keep a close eye on how they affect young people. However, this study demonstrates the success of public health efforts in reducing smoking among young people in the last 20 years and provides no evidence that e-cigarettes are reversing this.”

 

The tobacco control campaign group Ash Wales believes e-cigarettes have a crucial role to play in reducing smoking.

The group’s CEO, Suzanne Cass, said: “We welcome the results of the study and hope this will strengthen the case for e-cigarettes to be considered a highly effective smoking cessation tool and a far safer alternative to smoking tobacco, rather than the first step to becoming a smoker.”

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/apr/01/e-cigarettes-do-not-normalise-smoking-for-young-people-study

 

Tobacco Control. 2019 Apr 1. pii: tobaccocontrol-2018-054584. doi: 10.1136/tobaccocontrol-2018-054584. [Epub ahead of print]

Have e-cigarettes renormalised or displaced youth smoking? Results of a segmented regression analysis of repeated cross sectional survey data in England, Scotland and Wales.

Hallingberg B(1), Maynard OM(2), Bauld L(3), Brown R(1), Gray L(4), Lowthian E(1), MacKintosh AM(5), Moore L(4), Munafo MR(2), Moore G(1). 

(1)Centre for the Development and Evaluation of Complex Interventions for Public Health Improvement, School of Social Sciences, Cardiff University, Cardiff, UK.

Don't know about Wales but America found a link between e-cigs and going to cigs. Again Thailand's objection is mainly it's the start of a slippery slope. Yes?

 

I have read many times that e-cigs contain nicotine. You say otherwise? 

 

Then again, was it a Thai official or an American president that said pollution is good for you?

 

Anyway, the chemical I mentioned has been found and verified. in America.

[partington]

6 hours ago, elgenon said:

Don't know about Wales but America found a link between e-cigs and going to cigs. Again Thailand's objection is mainly it's the start of a slippery slope. Yes?

 

I have read many times that e-cigs contain nicotine. You say otherwise? 

 

Then again, was it a Thai official or an American president that said pollution is good for you?

 

Anyway, the chemical I mentioned has been found and verified. in America.

No I said "tobacco"  because you referred to 

 

On 8/28/2019 at 5:29 AM, elgenon said:

flavored tobacco 

 

and e-cigarettes contain no tobacco. They do contain nicotine of course, but so does nicotine chewing gum, which is available over the counter in both the US and UK and has been for years.

 

The danger with cigarettes is they give you cancer and heart disease. This is nothing to do with nicotine, which is pretty harmless.

[elgenon]

On 8/30/2019 at 3:54 AM, partington said:

No I said "tobacco"  because you referred to 

 

 

and e-cigarettes contain no tobacco. They do contain nicotine of course, but so does nicotine chewing gum, which is available over the counter in both the US and UK and has been for years.

 

The danger with cigarettes is they give you cancer and heart disease. This is nothing to do with nicotine, which is pretty harmless.

Sorry, you are correctomundo. I was imprecise. It's merely a bad aspect of tobacco. 555

[sunnyboy2018]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/05/vaping-risk-regulation-lungs

[sunnyboy2018]

On 8/28/2019 at 3:27 PM, partington said:

However  research to date, at least in the UK, shows this to be an unfounded assumption:

 

[incidentally there is no tobacco, flavoured or otherwise, in e-cigarettes at all.]

E-cigarettes do not normalise smoking for young people – study

 

"Some health experts and anti-smoking groups have expressed concern that the growth of e-cigarettes might normalise the idea of smoking for young people.

But the study led by Cardiff University researchers suggests the number of teenagers who said they had tried smoking or thought it was acceptable to smoke has continued to fall despite the rise in e-cigarette use.

The study, published in the journal Tobacco Control, examined data from England, Wales and Scotland, and found that from 1998 to 2015 the percentage of children aged between 13 and 15 who had smoked decreased from 60% to 19%, while regular smokers in the same age group fell from 19% to 5%.

 

Dr Graham Moore, based at the Centre for the Development and Evaluation of Complex Interventions for Public Health Improvement, said: “These findings suggest that fears over a resurgence in youth tobacco smoking because of the rise in e-cigarette use are largely unfounded to date.

“The nature of e-cigarettes, and the landscape in which they are sold and used, continue to change rapidly, and we need to continue to keep a close eye on how they affect young people. However, this study demonstrates the success of public health efforts in reducing smoking among young people in the last 20 years and provides no evidence that e-cigarettes are reversing this.”

 

The tobacco control campaign group Ash Wales believes e-cigarettes have a crucial role to play in reducing smoking.

The group’s CEO, Suzanne Cass, said: “We welcome the results of the study and hope this will strengthen the case for e-cigarettes to be considered a highly effective smoking cessation tool and a far safer alternative to smoking tobacco, rather than the first step to becoming a smoker.”

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/apr/01/e-cigarettes-do-not-normalise-smoking-for-young-people-study

 

Tobacco Control. 2019 Apr 1. pii: tobaccocontrol-2018-054584. doi: 10.1136/tobaccocontrol-2018-054584. [Epub ahead of print]

Have e-cigarettes renormalised or displaced youth smoking? Results of a segmented regression analysis of repeated cross sectional survey data in England, Scotland and Wales.

Hallingberg B(1), Maynard OM(2), Bauld L(3), Brown R(1), Gray L(4), Lowthian E(1), MacKintosh AM(5), Moore L(4), Munafo MR(2), Moore G(1). 

(1)Centre for the Development and Evaluation of Complex Interventions for Public Health Improvement, School of Social Sciences, Cardiff University, Cardiff, UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/05/vaping-risk-regulation-lungs

[brokenbone]

its not so much about health as it is about the evil co2,

it adds up and we are going to be baked like a potato,

computer modelling confirms we have only 10 years left on this earth, only cockroaches will survive

[BestB]

All the latest cases of “lung disease” are not people who are vaping regular ejuice but people vaping some <deleted> cannabis oil or something alike.

 

and no , thailand did not get it right and decision is based on nothing but potential loss of money as government owns one and only tobacco factory in the country.

 

they are so worried that all other brands also banned in the country.

 

try to buy premium brands like Davidoff or Cartier or even Dunhil. 

 

If thailand did some medical research then yeah one could at least bring up the arguement of “getting it right” 

[Irishrogue]

BestB is correct in that the vaping was related to cannabis and specifically vitamin E and the latest research is directed at resolving why vitamin E which when ingested as a solid is harmless but when vaped is now a growing concern. There is no vitamin E in the E cigarette market.

[Emdog]

Even a blind squirrel finds a few nuts....

[rocket3rider]

One swallow doesn't make a summer.

 

Clutching at straws!

 

One more week of vaping and I'll have been off ciggies for one year.

 

Saved $15,000 in Australia doing that.

 

Never felt better and the gov lost the taxes I used to pay.

 

Started at a mix of 10mg then went down to 7.5, 5 and now 2.5 of nicotine.

 

One week more, probably down to zero nicotine and will probably bin the tanks.

 

 

[ThomasThBKK]

Thailand gets nothing right.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/09/05/health/vaping-chemical-new-york-investigation-bn/index.html

 

Quote

An investigation into the link between vaping and severe lung illnesses has yielded the discovery of extremely high levels of the chemical vitamin E acetate in nearly all cannabis-containing vaping products that were analyzed, New York health officials said Thursday.

 

The ecig market is 10 years old, this only happened in the US now, magically nowhere else in the world. Guess yourself why...These kids are all junkies on thc and other <deleted>, their parents don't want to see the truth. That's often so in religious shole countries.

[BestB]

14 minutes ago, rocket3rider said:

One swallow doesn't make a summer.

 

Clutching at straws!

 

One more week of vaping and I'll have been off ciggies for one year.

 

Saved $15,000 in Australia doing that.

 

Never felt better and the gov lost the taxes I used to pay.

 

Started at a mix of 10mg then went down to 7.5, 5 and now 2.5 of nicotine.

 

One week more, probably down to zero nicotine and will probably bin the tanks.

 

 

Good on you, you will find your reduction in nicotine is just in your mind.

 

I was a heavy smoker up until 3 years ago when i switched to vaping.

 

At that stage i still had very little understanding of e juice or much else for that matter.

 

I really loved horny flava, so stuck with it. Without realizing for at least 1.5-2 years that horny flava i was vaping was in fact 0 nicotine.

 

Point is, get yourself 0 nic juice now and you will not even know  if you vaping nic free or not. ????

[Krataiboy]

On 8/28/2019 at 11:11 AM, neeray said:

But on what basis did Thailand oppose it? You tell me please, I really don't know. Was it because of diacetyl?

More likely to do with protecting the Thailand Tobacco Monopoly. Since the production and sale of opium was banned here, tobacco tax has been the most important source of exise tax revenue.

 

 

Edited September 6, 2019 by Krataiboy

[chilly07]

The carcinogens in tobacco do not include nicotine. It's the tobacco itself that causes cancer by clogging up the lungs and preventing mucas from clearing. Tobacco addiction is to nicotine and to the  products of combustion but it is the products of combustion that cause cancer. Whereas it is best to keep your lungs as clear as possible vaping is infinitely better than tobacco. Better to licence vaping and control the vaping liquid! 

[Yme]

3 hours ago, rocket3rider said:

One swallow doesn't make a summer.

 

Clutching at straws!

 

One more week of vaping and I'll have been off ciggies for one year.

 

Saved $15,000 in Australia doing that.

 

Never felt better and the gov lost the taxes I used to pay.

 

Started at a mix of 10mg then went down to 7.5, 5 and now 2.5 of nicotine.

 

One week more, probably down to zero nicotine and will probably bin the tanks.

 

 

I'm about 3 months ahead of you. I plan to ditch the tanks by the end of the year. With the money I saved I went and repaired some of the damage 40 years of smoking had done. Six coronary stents and 2 kissing iliac stents in India. Couldn't have afforded my cigarettes habit in the last few years in Australia. 

The (very dangerous) patches were useless and fell off in the heat, the pills made me feel homicidal, and the gum was a waste of time. 



 

[Mopo]

Most vaping products contain  propylene glycol Usually. Not diacetyl.

Furthermore most of those cases were from vaping counterfeit marijuana oil.

 I vaped for about 10 years before I came to Thailand, lowering the levels of nicotine little by little. When I arrived in Thailand, I no longer needed to smoke. Vaping is a Godsend to those trying to stop smoking, and is much safer than tobacco smoke.

[ThomasThBKK]

2 hours ago, Mopo said:

Most vaping products contain  propylene glycol Usually. Not diacetyl.

Furthermore most of those cases were from vaping counterfeit marijuana oil.

 I vaped for about 10 years before I came to Thailand, lowering the levels of nicotine little by little. When I arrived in Thailand, I no longer needed to smoke. Vaping is a Godsend to those trying to stop smoking, and is much safer than tobacco smoke.

Diacetyl is a natural compound btw, found in every strawberry and dozens of other fruits. And milk, butter, som tam - because fermantation creates Dicetyl, so it's everywhere. 

They just like to use chemical names to make it look more dangerous, the government likes to kill us. 

 

It's only dangerous in extreme overdoses, like most other stuff too, distilled water can kill you too. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2019/09/05/contaminant-found-vaping-products-linked-deadly-lung-illnesses-state-federal-labs-show/?noredirect=on

 

More and more reports nailing the lung damage to all the same stuff.. Thc with vitamin e acetate, as expected. 

Edited September 6, 2019 by ThomasThBKK

[mommysboy]

In a sense you're right!  What I mean is that neither Thailand or the USA is ready for vaping, and hence it is the right choice for both countries, as strict regulation is required in order to avoid the black market poisonings which appear to have occurred.

 

However, this latest panic appears to be about 'dabbing' contaminated cannabis oil, and has nothing to do with standard vaping, which is likely near harmless.  Contaminated products on the other hand are often dangerous, if not lethal.

 

Diacetyl 2 is present in conventional cigarettes in quantities far higher than in e-liquid, and cigarette smoking is not associated with popcorn lung. These unfortunates are in fact suffering from lipoid pneumonia which is associated with vaping oils.  The contaminant 'vitamin E acetate' is under the most scrutiny.

 

 

[jany123]

Lovely to hear about the success stories regards kicking butt... but but... not everyone has a good take on e cigs... 

 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/1720747/pmi-tries-lobbying-against-e-cigarette-ban

But studies show e-cigarettes are hugely popular with teenagers. A study from Dartmouth College estimated that from 2011-15 the number of high school students vaping in the US increased from 1.5% to 16%. The study estimated that in 2015 vaping helped about 2,070 smokers quit cigarettes, while conversely leading 168,000 teens and young adults to start smoking real cigarettes after using e-cigarettes.

 

never mind... the Marlboro man is riding to the rescue with their “heat to burn” tobacco products which they claim to be the bees knees and way better than liquid e cig products

[ThomasThBKK]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

In a sense you're right!  What I mean is that neither Thailand or the USA is ready for vaping, and hence it is the right choice for both countries, as strict regulation is required in order to avoid the black market poisonings which appear to have occurred.

 

However, this latest panic appears to be about 'dabbing' contaminated cannabis oil, and has nothing to do with standard vaping, which is likely near harmless.  Contaminated products on the other hand are often dangerous, if not lethal.

 

Diacetyl 2 is present in conventional cigarettes in quantities far higher than in e-liquid, and cigarette smoking is not associated with popcorn lung. These unfortunates are in fact suffering from lipoid pneumonia which is associated with vaping oils.  The contaminant 'vitamin E acetate' is under the most scrutiny.

 

 

Everything is FDA regulated in the US and other countries, you can't stop drug dealers with regulations... this stuff wasn't bought in a shop. You are far more likely to get something bad in countries where vaping is not regulated and allowed...

 

39 minutes ago, jany123 said:

 

 

Rubbish, because from Thai doctor - so must be rubbish and is rubbish: https://www.clivebates.com/the-great-american-youth-vaping-epidemic-really/

 

The youth smoking rate in the US was NEVER lower than it is now: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/08/cdc-says-smoking-rates-fall-to-record-low-in-us.html

 

So there's an epidemic in youth smokers but the rate is lowest then it ever was, how does that math work out? Oh yeah maybe because people switched from smoking to vaping, good for them, they won't die.

 

What a tiresome topic, as all such topics, people that know nothing are trying to preach their non sense.

But don't worry the marlboro man won't come to the rescue in thailand, as that is the thing they really try to get rid of.

Philip morris owns IQUOS, and PM is also the ones who sue Thailand in front of the WTO and won.

PM and Thailand don't get along, as Thailand owns them massive amounts of Cash. 

 

Oh and that FDA guy who started this whole rubbish is now on the board of PFIZER who produce CHAMPIX, the competition to vaping and just got caught bribing the German Anti Tobacco lobby: 

 

Edited September 6, 2019 by ThomasThBKK

[jany123]

43 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

 

Rubbish, because from Thai doctor - so must be rubbish and is rubbish: https://www.clivebates.com/the-great-american-youth-vaping-epidemic-really/

 

The youth smoking rate in the US was NEVER lower than it is now: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/08/cdc-says-smoking-rates-fall-to-record-low-in-us.html

 

So there's an epidemic in youth smokers but the rate is lowest then it ever was, how does that math work out? Oh yeah maybe because people switched from smoking to vaping, good for them, they won't die.

 

What a tiresome topic, as all such topics, people that know nothing are trying to preach their non sense.

But don't worry the marlboro man won't come to the rescue in thailand, as that is the thing they really try to get rid of.

Philip morris owns IQUOS, and PM is also the ones who sue Thailand in front of the WTO and won.

PM and Thailand don't get along, as Thailand owns them massive amounts of Cash. 

 

Oh and that FDA guy who started this whole rubbish is now on the board of PFIZER who produce CHAMPIX, the competition to vaping and just got caught bribing the German Anti Tobacco lobby: 

 

Lol... all that (or most of it) because I had a tongue in cheek dig at PM (Marlboro man) over their new product range which they ( not I) claim is the solution to the problems of smoking... you did read the article, didn’t you?

 

I’m not sure about your wee rave about Thai doctors though... the study I linked was done by Dartmouth college in the USA.

 

43 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

So there's an epidemic in youth smokers but the rate is lowest then it ever was, how does that math work out? Oh yeah maybe because people switched from smoking to vaping, good for them, they won't die.

And.... because the numbers of overall smokers worldwide is reduced, it does not mean that there are no new smokers, but more simply, that more people quit than started... although rather obvious, this is explained in the link you provided to this point... I guess you overlooked that, along with the last 2 paragraphs.

[Foexie]

Last week i see news here in Belgium about our first victim.

 

vaping, got all kind of symptoms and sicknesses, got in a coma but now is getting better again.

 

But not sure will heal again 100%.

 

 

[Tony125]

7 hours ago, Foexie said:

Last week i see news here in Belgium about our first victim.

 

vaping, got all kind of symptoms and sicknesses, got in a coma but now is getting better again.

 

But not sure will heal again 100%.

 

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/top-boston-lung-doctors-advocates-sound-the-alarm-on-emerging-vape-crisis/ar-AAGtm4d   

[mommysboy]

Mud sticks unfortunately; the truth is to some extent irrelevant.  It matters not a jot that this is about contaminated black market products that are not even vape juice.

 

Vaping is an area where even highly intelligent professionals are blinded by their own almost preternatural prejudices, and even after substantial education they still conflate the act of vaping with that of smoking.  USA is a hopeless case in all honesty, because of the poor standard of science that lays behind arguments, and the ease with which these views can dominate the media; it is the triumph of sentiment over reason, and fiction over fact. Many, if not most, health professionals are convinced that vaping is, or will be, dangerous.  Thus like all blinded by confirmation bias they will seize on any headline, which confirms their feelings, ie, it's what they want to hear that counts, not the truth of it.

 

Recent events are actually misuse of hardware, and contamination of chemicals, which represent most problems associated with most products.  If, for example, there is an outbreak of food poisoning in a particular locality. the health authority involved is unlikely to recommend that people stop eating full stop- that would be absurd.  Yet, that is exactly the situation with this 'vaping related' syndrome.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2019 by mommysboy

[Vacuum]

On 9/5/2019 at 6:40 PM, brokenbone said:

its not so much about health as it is about the evil co2,

it adds up and we are going to be baked like a potato,

computer modelling confirms we have only 10 years left on this earth, only cockroaches will survive

Obviously, you've been smoking something before posting this.