Thailand got it right about vaping?

[ThePioneer]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/authorities-investigating-450-vaping-illnesses-and-a-third-death-11567794441

 

People Urged to Stop Vaping Following More Deaths, Hundreds of Illnesses

Number of mysterious lung injuries more than doubled from last week

[jany123]

2 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

Yeah thanks, it explains what i said. No one can vape at those conditions...Already explained that x times.

it's absolutely unrealistic.

You accused me of having comprehension problems... lmao... the link I supplied you with is a second round of testing, post criticism of the first round of testing, using different parameters and test methods to better simulate smoking.

 

2 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

Oh yeah but flavored beer, alc, cigaretts and shisha is ok and doesn't cause youth epidemics

No... they're not... there is a shed load of opposition to “alcopop” as it too, encourages youth drinking. It’s very controversial... I’m surprised you’ve missed it

2 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

You want to forbid ecigs, forbid everything, just stop beeing a hypocrite.

You are the only self righthouse person here, which seems to be common in ex-smokers...

Are you annoying your ecig vaping GF with thise stuff all day long too?

Another great example of a lack of comprehension... I have consistently maintained that e cigs used therapeutically is fine. I fully support that.

 

2 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

Yeah that will help, lets wait another 20 years and let 8 mio people die from cigaretts each year.

8 million people die from smoking... fine... but the number you need to quote is how many of those smokers are trying to quit... it ain’t 8 million,.... anyway, that aside, per above, I fully support the use e cigs to assist quitting

2 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

lol why are tobacco heating devices and shishas not legal? Taxes...

Irrelevant to my position, in that I’m only advocating measures to prevent an uptake by non smokers. That there tax issue is your conspiracy

2 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

But now they just make stuff up about nicotine causing cancers while selling nicotine gum...

More comprehension issues.... I’m not on about nicotine causing cancer, it’s the other stuff that does that... take that up with someone who does think nicotine cause cancer.

2 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

I mean, you are totally entitled to your opinion and for sure vaping is worse than breathing just air but thinking it's a net negative in thailands health is just made up, the amount of issues caused by vaping will be less than those of tobacco - if we set the amount of taxes generated aside.

And again, preventing an uptick caused by fads and flavors targeting kids is the goal. This will have a positive effect on society as cigarette smoking is being supplanted by e cig use

 

you too are entitled to your opinion, although I fail to see how anyone can support a product that causes harm. Regulating new users such that only smokers can use them, protects the youth from themselves, as is incumbent upon adults. If you want your loved ones who otherwise don’t smoke, not take up e cigs, then that’s fine me.

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, wisperone said:

Believe that if you like.... people don't start smoking and come down with cancer the next day. But people are facing lung issues much sooner from vaping than those who smoke cigs. Believe what you want. I would say come back in 30 years and lets see what the vapers are going thru, but we are already seeing the results very soon after they start. Too each their own, People can do with their lungs what they want. 

Vaping when done correctly is comparatively harmless, and is said by PHE to be 95% less harmful than smoking cigarettes.  This model is adopted within the EU, and now in Australia, as well as New Zealand, and Canada.  

 

Surely, it should not be a matter of belief but of fact!  

 

The terrible situation in the USA (and only here) is due to contaminated THC, which is not even vape juice proper!  Vape juice does not contain oil.

 

 

[jany123]

1 hour ago, BestB said:

Again for the 10th time , those with lung problems are not vaping ejuice but poorly made cannabis oil . 

Can not say most or how many , but highly unlikely most vapers vape cannabis oil, otherwise numbers of sick people would be into millions not a few here and there.

 

like it or not but vaping community is huge worldwide and growing by the day. Some have been vaping for over a decade and they have not come down with any illness., yet newbies are getting sick . 

 

Why are they getting sick? For the 11th time because that vaping poorly made cannabis oil not regular ejuice.

Saying it 11 times does not make it so... there are multiple studies linking other factors to the emergent lung problems, and many patients have been seen who do not use the weeds. (Which is not to trivialize the issue with pot... that too seems to be well documented)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2019/09/06/lung-illness-tied-vaping-has-killed-third-person-may-be-new-worrisome-disease-officials-say/

[ThomasThBKK]

17 minutes ago, jany123 said:

 

8 million people die from smoking... fine... but the number you need to quote is how many of those smokers are trying to quit... it ain’t 8 million,.... anyway, that aside, per above, I fully support the use e cigs to assist quitting

Irrelevant to my position, in that I’m only advocating measures to prevent an uptake by non smokers. That there tax issue is your conspiracy

More comprehension issues.... I’m not on about nicotine causing cancer, it’s the other stuff that does that... take that up with someone who does think nicotine cause cancer.

And again, preventing an uptick caused by fads and flavors targeting kids is the goal. This will have a positive effect on society as cigarette smoking is being supplanted by e cig use

 

you too are entitled to your opinion, although I fail to see how anyone can support a product that causes harm. Regulating new users such that only smokers can use them, protects the youth from themselves, as is incumbent upon adults. If you want your loved ones who otherwise don’t smoke, not take up e cigs, then that’s fine me.

 

Millions want to quit: https://www.chemist-4-u.com/guides/quit-smoking/uk-2019-smoking-and-vaping-statistics?

"Over 60% of current smokers want to quit, and 59.5% of those who have ever smoked have already quit."

 

 

5.5% currently vape in the UK alone, similar in germany, us and co.

15 percent smoke, ergo 1/4 of total nicotine users are vaping already instead of stinky fags.

Millions of people are not going to die from lung cancer because they already vape.

With a population of 66 mio in the Uk thats 3.5 mio or so people that vape, 3.5 mio people that are now using  something 95% more safe.

Go extrapolate that to the whole world and you sound even more brainfarted.

 

2 junkies die because they smoke something completely different, you want millions of people to die instead, what a faked up mind.

 

The rest of your non sense is equal rubbish and doesn't deserve any further replies, let's hope your gf doesn't die from lung cancer after you talked her out of ecigs.

 

[ThomasThBKK]

16 minutes ago, jany123 said:

Saying it 11 times does not make it so... there are multiple studies linking other factors to the emergent lung problems, and many patients have been seen who do not use the weeds. (Which is not to trivialize the issue with pot... that too seems to be well documented)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2019/09/06/lung-illness-tied-vaping-has-killed-third-person-may-be-new-worrisome-disease-officials-say/

lol yeah sure drug junkies saying they never used a vape before to evade drug charges and loss of face, never seeeen beforeeee.

 

In NYC ALL cases have been found to have been users of vitamin e acetat, but whatever, you are blocked nowwwww, troll somewhere else.

[mommysboy]

1 minute ago, jany123 said:

Saying it 11 times does not make it so... there are multiple studies linking other factors to the emergent lung problems, and many patients have been seen who do not use the weeds. (Which is not to trivialize the issue with pot... that too seems to be well documented)

 

Certainly in Wisconsin it has been isolated to contaminated black market cannabis products. Essentially these are 'home brewed' concoctions placed in to clever packaging, and then marketed on the street. The UK has one of the most developed e-cigarette markets and no problems have been reported there, or indeed anywhere other than the USA. 

 

There have been a few 'in vitro' studies which demonstrate only that vaping could effect lung cells.  These are not real life studies.  Some monitored patients indeed seem to obtain relief from COPD.  The only study of any merit was conducted by Pelosa et al and on a small scale.  It indicated no significant differences between vapers (never smokers) and never smokers.

 

The only other 'emergent' lung problem concerned a youth with a collapsed lung who was convinced it was caused by vaping.  But even 35 years ago I knew that as a slim, tall, male adolescent I was at some risk of a collapsed lung- it was one of those mysteries that happens!  

[jany123]

2 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

lol yeah sure drug junkies saying they never used a vape before to evade drug charges and loss of face, never seeeen beforeeee.

 

In NYC ALL cases have been found to have been users of vitamin e acetat, but whatever, you are blocked nowwwww, troll somewhere else.

Lol... and the link said 33 states... comprehension issues related to vaping?

[mommysboy]

12 minutes ago, jany123 said:

Lol... and the link said 33 states... comprehension issues related to vaping?

But most of the links, headlines, etc, coming out of the USA are grossly misleading imo.  

 

What I mean is, it's not really 'vaping' related.  It's 'dabbing'.  If someone adds oil to vape juice then of course there is going to be a problem, just as if someone poisons food.

 

Also, it's a bit naive to take a teens word for it that he only used vape juice!  I mean, come on will you?  Besides none of the vape juice tested has been implicated in anything- And why would it be?... because vaping has already been established to be near harmless.

 

 

[jany123]

28 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Also, it's a bit naive to take a teens word for it that he only used vape juice!  I mean, come on will you?  Besides none of the vape juice tested has been implicated in anything- And why would it be?... because vaping has already been established to be near harmless.

Not all are teens.... and not everyone sees vaping as near harmless anymore... the term is changing to simply being better than cigarette smoking... it could change again to being considered extremely dangerous, only time will tell, as more data becomes available, making irrefutable claims more possible.

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2019/3/28/18277658/vaping-health-effects-vs-smoking

 

WHO knows... WHO cares (sorry... couldn’t resist????)

https://www.thejakartapost.com/life/2019/07/28/who-says-e-cigarettes-undoubtedly-harmful.html

 

[BestB]

2 hours ago, jany123 said:

Saying it 11 times does not make it so... there are multiple studies linking other factors to the emergent lung problems, and many patients have been seen who do not use the weeds. (Which is not to trivialize the issue with pot... that too seems to be well documented)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2019/09/06/lung-illness-tied-vaping-has-killed-third-person-may-be-new-worrisome-disease-officials-say/

Ok let’s accept your version for a minute . 

 

Why only in US? And how many out of 450 did not vape cannabis oil?

[jany123]

58 minutes ago, BestB said:

Ok let’s accept your version for a minute . 

 

Why only in US? And how many out of 450 did not vape cannabis oil?

My version? Do you mean my assertions, supported by links?

 

the links and research detailed, say that not all of the sick vape the weeds.... they all also say that it’s too early to jump to the conclusion that it’s about the weeds, but say instead, more research is needed. Don’t listen to me, listen to them... or not

 

all I did was point out that not all of the sick smoked cannabis product, whilst maintaining that new users should be regulated to prevent an untick in youth smoking.... and the CEO of Juul agrees with me... even on control issues, wherein they are talking about a registry of some kind to be implemented within a couple of years by suppliers of juul products... yet again, this has been my point throughout.

https://www.businessinsider.com/juul-ceo-dont-vape-long-term-effects-unknown-2019-8

 

how many.? I don’t know. Numbers were not given for any category of the 450, that I have seen, just groupings of cigarette users, pot smokers and a mix of the two. I have conveniently provided those details in the links I have posted herein, should you wish to read them for yourself.... hope that helps.

 

[faraday]

Jany, the links you've posted, appear to be mostly opinions about Nicotine, & I couldn't find the JACC July paper.  Can you post the title please?

 

Vaping is still better than smoking, it's not risk free though.

 

There's always a possibility that BAT, are helping to fuel this.

 

I had to laugh at this:

 

"...and the CEO of Juul agrees with me"

 

He'll be relieved, I'm sure.

[BestB]

4 hours ago, jany123 said:

My version? Do you mean my assertions, supported by links?

 

the links and research detailed, say that not all of the sick vape the weeds.... they all also say that it’s too early to jump to the conclusion that it’s about the weeds, but say instead, more research is needed. Don’t listen to me, listen to them... or not

 

all I did was point out that not all of the sick smoked cannabis product, whilst maintaining that new users should be regulated to prevent an untick in youth smoking.... and the CEO of Juul agrees with me... even on control issues, wherein they are talking about a registry of some kind to be implemented within a couple of years by suppliers of juul products... yet again, this has been my point throughout.

https://www.businessinsider.com/juul-ceo-dont-vape-long-term-effects-unknown-2019-8

 

how many.? I don’t know. Numbers were not given for any category of the 450, that I have seen, just groupings of cigarette users, pot smokers and a mix of the two. I have conveniently provided those details in the links I have posted herein, should you wish to read them for yourself.... hope that helps.

 

All over sudden you do not know ?

 

Before you were certain but now you do not know. 

 

Your assertions and links people got lung disease from vaping .

 

Simple question, why all those people only in US?

 

Teens and adults vape cannabis oil no doubt all over the world yet ones that get sick are only in US?

 

there are millions of vapers who do not use cannabis oil and yet the ones who got sick are only in US?

 

Do not post links but tell me why you think that is ?

 

 

[likerdup1]

Couldn't be cigarette companies with falling revenues pulling another publicity stunt to put people back on the old fire sticks?

 

I highly doubt "Thailand got it right" is the appropriate headline. That's right, hahaha, Thailand's many innovative scientists did extensive testing to find this problem before their US or European counterparts.

 

More likely that an official at the top was paid handsomely by big tobacco to make the ban on e-cigs and vaping to keep cigarette sales in Thailand rolling along at a nice clip.

 

Personally when I see someone using a vaping device and puffing out huge volumes of that "steam" I say to myself, this ALSO cannot be good.

[ThomasThBKK]

To quote Austrians leading Lung doctor, professor dr bernd mayer from university of graz: 

"Only a <deleted> <deleted> <deleted> of <deleted> would think there's even a possibility that combustion can be as dangerous as burning."

 

Enough said.

[jany123]

3 hours ago, BestB said:

All over sudden you do not know ?

 

Before you were certain but now you do not know. 

 

Your assertions and links people got lung disease from vaping .

 

Simple question, why all those people only in US?

 

Teens and adults vape cannabis oil no doubt all over the world yet ones that get sick are only in US?

 

there are millions of vapers who do not use cannabis oil and yet the ones who got sick are only in US?

 

Do not post links but tell me why you think that is ?

 

 

Wherein did I say that I was certain of numbers? I did not, but instead simply said that these variations exist, and posted what I was looking at, so others could see... nothing more.

 

why only in the USA... because of a lack of regulations, I would think... but hey, if you want to choose to jump the gun and assume it’s  something that is unproven, then that’s ok by me... feel freely,

 

another point raised by researchers is that some of these cases may have been misdiagnosed, but are now suddenly coming to light with new investigations. Investigations in the USA, not in other countries... ergo results are unique to the country doing the tests.

 

There’s two possibilities being discussed... But hey, I don’t know (per earlier, dispite you claims that I’m certain of things)... researchers don’t know... and until the researchers stop saying that they don’t know what’s causing it, I will stick with it being an “unknown” needing investigating, as the scientific community is maintaining, not that it matters, as my point of view is that non smokers should not have access to these products.

 

 

[ThomasThBKK]

Nice article from Dr Michael Siegel (Professor in the Department of Community Health Sciences, Boston University School of Public Health), exposing the hypocrisy: https://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/2019/09/health-officials-continue-to-warn.html

 

and from Dr Farsalinos: http://www.ecigarette-research.org/research/index.php/whats-new/2019/274-us-lung\

And from Brad Rodu: https://rodutobaccotruth.blogspot.com/2019/09/exploiting-outlier-lung-disease-cases.html

 

[mommysboy]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/sep/07/health-experts-reassure-vapers-products-in--uk-are-safe

 

This is the UK take from it's foremost spokesperson.  Highlights as follows.

 

"He said reports suggested that most cases in the US had been linked to people using illicit vaping fluid, bought on the streets or homemade, some containing cannabis products, like THC, or synthetic cannabinoids, like spice."

 

“Unlike the US, all e-cigarette products in the UK are tightly regulated for quality and safety by the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency and they operate the yellow card scheme, encouraging vapers to report any bad experiences,” he said.

 

This point was backed by Prof Linda Bauld, a public health expert at Edinburgh University. “It seems highly unlikely that widely available nicotine-containing vaping products, particularly of the type regulated in Europe, are causing these cases,” she said. “All the evidence to date suggests that illicit marijuana vaping products (THC oils) are the cause. In particular, a compound called tocopherol acetate may be the culprit.”

 

[BestB]

1 hour ago, jany123 said:

Wherein did I say that I was certain of numbers? I did not, but instead simply said that these variations exist, and posted what I was looking at, so others could see... nothing more.

 

why only in the USA... because of a lack of regulations, I would think... but hey, if you want to choose to jump the gun and assume it’s  something that is unproven, then that’s ok by me... feel freely,

 

another point raised by researchers is that some of these cases may have been misdiagnosed, but are now suddenly coming to light with new investigations. Investigations in the USA, not in other countries... ergo results are unique to the country doing the tests.

 

There’s two possibilities being discussed... But hey, I don’t know (per earlier, dispite you claims that I’m certain of things)... researchers don’t know... and until the researchers stop saying that they don’t know what’s causing it, I will stick with it being an “unknown” needing investigating, as the scientific community is maintaining, not that it matters, as my point of view is that non smokers should not have access to these products.

 

 

I am so confused. First you are sure and have many links to prove vaping is bad, now you back tracking with may be or do not know or more research and so on.

 

you do not think it’s as simple as badly made batch of cannabis oil that caused country wide outbreak?

 

no one , including myself ever claimed vaping was healthy or totally harmless. However it is as claimed by UK 95% less harmful.

 

can it cause some health issues? No doubt it can but not on the scale your links make it out to be.

 

by the way, there are also standard ejuice and premium. Some standard cheap juices are noticeable when vaping , sore throat, headache and few other symptoms.

 

also keep in mind salt nics. Many misuse it and use it with direct hit tanks instead of MTL. Result very possibly nicotine poisoning 

[BestB]

17 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/sep/07/health-experts-reassure-vapers-products-in--uk-are-safe

 

This is the UK take from it's foremost spokesperson.  Highlights as follows.

 

"He said reports suggested that most cases in the US had been linked to people using illicit vaping fluid, bought on the streets or homemade, some containing cannabis products, like THC, or synthetic cannabinoids, like spice."

 

“Unlike the US, all e-cigarette products in the UK are tightly regulated for quality and safety by the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency and they operate the yellow card scheme, encouraging vapers to report any bad experiences,” he said.

 

This point was backed by Prof Linda Bauld, a public health expert at Edinburgh University. “It seems highly unlikely that widely available nicotine-containing vaping products, particularly of the type regulated in Europe, are causing these cases,” she said. “All the evidence to date suggests that illicit marijuana vaping products (THC oils) are the cause. In particular, a compound called tocopherol acetate may be the culprit.”

 

Idiots should be vaping dried leaf in dry herb mods . Most likely would be cheaper as welll????

[jany123]

52 minutes ago, BestB said:

I am so confused. First you are sure and have many links to prove vaping is bad, now you back tracking with may be or do not know or more research and so on.

 

you do not think it’s as simple as badly made batch of cannabis oil that caused country wide outbreak?

 

no one , including myself ever claimed vaping was healthy or totally harmless. However it is as claimed by UK 95% less harmful.

 

can it cause some health issues? No doubt it can but not on the scale your links make it out to be.

 

by the way, there are also standard ejuice and premium. Some standard cheap juices are noticeable when vaping , sore throat, headache and few other symptoms.

 

also keep in mind salt nics. Many misuse it and use it with direct hit tanks instead of MTL. Result very possibly nicotine poisoning 

Don’t be confused... all I did was post the money any links to support the information that they contained, that I conveyed... as you are supposed to do herein, when quoting or relying on a source.

 

i do not know... researchers do not know... that’s what I know from reading the links... if our know, when researchers don’t, then your obviously the smartest man in the room.... congrats.

 

Anyway... it could be a badly made batch of something... I don’t know... researchers don’t know. Researchers say they need to do more research, which I only discovered whilst reading someone else’s supplied link, well after I first said that more research / investigation was needed. Could well be, and as I said, this indicates a lack of regulatory control, which I also suggested needs improving.

 

Did I say anywhere that e cigs where anything other than better than smoking... I have even supported the use of e cig smoke in this thread, in relation to attempting to quit... so I’m not sure what that’s about.

 

If my links overstate something, pull me up... provide counter arguments.

 

your last paragraphs provides insight... well done... you agree that there’s other alternatives to the cause of lung issues, and have included these possibilities. That’s a balanced approach.

 

i fully understand why there has been a conclusion made regards the weeds... it’s logical... it makes sense and I expect that this will be confirmed... and I expect it to be dealt with by regulations and enforcement.... but there should imply to much history on products not being adequately tested whilst being assumed to be non harmful... tobacco is already in that category.... to simply fixate on one causation

[mommysboy]

42 minutes ago, jany123 said:

Don’t be confused... all I did was post the money any links to support the information that they contained, that I conveyed... as you are supposed to do herein, when quoting or relying on a source.

 

i do not know... researchers do not know... that’s what I know from reading the links... if our know, when researchers don’t, then your obviously the smartest man in the room.... congrats.

 

Anyway... it could be a badly made batch of something... I don’t know... researchers don’t know. Researchers say they need to do more research, which I only discovered whilst reading someone else’s supplied link, well after I first said that more research / investigation was needed. Could well be, and as I said, this indicates a lack of regulatory control, which I also suggested needs improving.

 

Did I say anywhere that e cigs where anything other than better than smoking... I have even supported the use of e cig smoke in this thread, in relation to attempting to quit... so I’m not sure what that’s about.

 

If my links overstate something, pull me up... provide counter arguments.

 

your last paragraphs provides insight... well done... you agree that there’s other alternatives to the cause of lung issues, and have included these possibilities. That’s a balanced approach.

 

i fully understand why there has been a conclusion made regards the weeds... it’s logical... it makes sense and I expect that this will be confirmed... and I expect it to be dealt with by regulations and enforcement.... but there should imply to much history on products not being adequately tested whilst being assumed to be non harmful... tobacco is already in that category.... to simply fixate on one causation

You are just scatter-gunning with sensationalist headlines, which creates confusion and ambiguity.  Many of the headlines don't even accurately reflect the content. Hence, an article detailing a study in mice that could indicate compromise in petri dish cells, becomes a headline like 'vaping causes lung damage'.

 

Also, because we can't be sure that doesn't mean to say we don't know an awful lot already.  It is true however to say that we can't definitively say vaping is safe, because nicotine is a drug, and also vaping is a relatively new phenomenon.  Nevertheless, much is now known about vaping.  Then there is the real world experience from ongoing monitoring.

[Richard Gues]

Hello everyone, I do not know if it is appropriate to expose my experience here ,, twelve years ago that I vape ,, smoker of forty-five years ,, and my life has changed radically ,, I will not detail ,, the problem of the United States it was vitamin E, fat soluble, impossible to inhale into the lungs, we only use water-soluble liquids, greetings to all