EU fears UK is rowing back on Irish border and 'level playing field' - sources

[snoop1130]

EU fears UK is rowing back on Irish border and 'level playing field' - sources

By Francesco Guarascio, Gabriela Baczynska

 

European Union's chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier arrives at a meeting with European Council President Donald Tusk (not pictured) in Brussels, Belgium, August 22, 2019. REUTERS/Francois Lenoir

 

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - The European Union is increasingly worried about British Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s stance on the Irish border and future competition rules, sources said on Thursday.

 

Johnson is pushing for a parliamentary election after the House of Commons blocked his bid to take Britain out of the EU on Oct. 31 - with or without a divorce settlement.

 

He says he is making progress in talks to rework the terms that his predecessor Teresa May agreed with the EU but failed to pass at home - but European diplomats say London has yet to make any meaningful proposals.

 

Diplomats and officials told Reuters that EU negotiator Michel Barnier had told envoys from the 27 other member states in Brussels on Wednesday that London had presented no specific ideas on how to replace the ‘backstop’ in May’s accord - an insurance policy to keep the Irish border free of checks.

 

Johnson has argued that, by brandishing a threat to leave the EU with no deal, he can secure concessions at a summit in Brussels on Oct. 17-18.

 

“The Brits have an unrealistic belief that everything will be miraculously solved at the summit,” one EU diplomat said on Thursday.

 

At Wednesday’s meeting, Germany’s EU ambassador dismissed Johnson’s assertions of progress on the divorce terms.

 

The envoy said the latest round of EU-UK talks in Brussels was a waste of time, the sources said. Britain often looks to Germany as a fellow pragmatist and potential ally within the EU.

 

Johnson wants the EU to drop the ‘backstop’, a policy that would tie the UK to the bloc’s trading rules after Brexit until a better way is found to preserve the open border between EU member Ireland and the British province of Northern Ireland.

 

PEACE AGREEMENT

 

Both Dublin and the EU say that to restore border infrastructure would endanger a peace accord that largely ended decades of sectarian violence in the province, in part by removing checkpoints and making the border essentially invisible.

 

At the same time, they insist that the border must not become a back door for avoiding checks and duties on goods heading for the EU single market.

 

At the meeting, both Barnier and Ireland said Johnson’s government was merely trying to avoid restoring heavy equipment and extensive checks on the physical frontier.

 

According to the sources, they said London was still proposing that checks would be carried out elsewhere on the island after Brexit, and that this would infringe the parts of the peace accord that provide for north and south to be a single economic zone with frictionless trade.

 

“Though time is running out, the EU continues to be open to constructively discuss any proposal that prevents a hard border on the island of Ireland, respects the Good Friday Agreement, safeguards the common market and can be implemented in a timely manner,” said another EU diplomat.

 

On trade, Barnier said Johnson had made clear he was aiming at a very limited free trade agreement with the EU.

 

The EU is worried, however, that London no longer wants to legally commit to a ‘level playing field’ - shorthand for agreed baseline rules on environmental standards, labour regulations and state aid - to ensure Britain would not be able to offer products in the EU at dumping prices.

 

The briefing raised “strong concern about a bare-bones free trade agreement and no level playing field”, a senior EU diplomat said. “This notion that we would end up with a Singapore-on-Thames with a ‘race to the bottom’ on regulations.”

 

France, the Netherlands and other EU states highlighted how important it was for them to protect the bloc’s single market from such a risk.

 

With London specifically declaring it wants to distance itself from EU regulations in the future, France’s envoy said any future trade agreement would inevitably have to include customs tariffs.

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2019-09-05

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[sammieuk1]

 

“The Brits have an unrealistic belief that everything will be miraculously solved at the summit,” one EU diplomat said on Thursday.

 

Yep ????

[Joinaman]

Remind us all again what the EU has offered to end this stalemate ?

Remind us all again how, putting standard customs and immigration checks ,  the same as in most other countries, would cause the irish to start murdering innocent people again

i dont hear how they are going to murder the french, Spanish or other people, just because they have to stop and show their passport and have their vehicles inspected 

[bristolboy]

3 minutes ago, Joinaman said:

Remind us all again what the EU has offered to end this stalemate ?

Remind us all again how, putting standard customs and immigration checks ,  the same as in most other countries, would cause the irish to start murdering innocent people again

i dont hear how they are going to murder the french, Spanish or other people, just because they have to stop and show their passport and have their vehicles inspected 

You must be very young or very sheltered to know nothing of The Troubles.

[7by7]

29 minutes ago, Joinaman said:

Remind us all again what the EU has offered to end this stalemate ?

The EU agreed a withdrawal agreement with the then UK government which contained the backstop; a temporary solution the the irish border question until a permanent one could be found.

 

That agreement was rejected by the UK Parliament.

 

The EU have repeatedly said that they are willing to discuss any and all proposals to amend that agreement, including the backstop.

 

How many such proposals has Johnson's government made?

 

None. Zero. Zilch.

 

33 minutes ago, Joinaman said:

Remind us all again how, putting standard customs and immigration checks ,  the same as in most other countries, would cause the irish to start murdering innocent people again

i dont hear how they are going to murder the french, Spanish or other people, just because they have to stop and show their passport and have their vehicles inspected 

As said by @bristolboy, your knowledge of recent Irish history is lacking.

 

Have a good read of Keeping the Peace An old conflict and a new Border: How Britain's exit from the European Union could threaten 20 years of peace in Northern Ireland from The Irish Times; you may just learn something.

 

I am not, of course, saying that we should give in to terrorists; far from it. But it is surely better to prevent problems now than try and solve them later.

 

[StreetCowboy]

58 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

The EU agreed a withdrawal agreement with the then UK government which contained the backstop; a temporary solution the the irish border question until a permanent one could be found.

 

That agreement was rejected by the UK Parliament.

 

The EU have repeatedly said that they are willing to discuss any and all proposals to amend that agreement, including the backstop.

 

How many such proposals has Johnson's government made?

 

None. Zero. Zilch.

 

As said by @bristolboy, your knowledge of recent Irish history is lacking.

 

Have a good read of Keeping the Peace An old conflict and a new Border: How Britain's exit from the European Union could threaten 20 years of peace in Northern Ireland from The Irish Times; you may just learn something.

 

I am not, of course, saying that we should give in to terrorists; far from it. But it is surely better to prevent problems now than try and solve them later.

 

An interesting point that. Had the Conservative government of the time bought into that logic, we might have seen HMS Sheffield still floating.  Sometimes, as a government, it is better to be seen addressing problems than preventing them.  I am happy pay more for hospitalisation for Dengue fever than for mosquito repellent.

 

 

[Loiner]

 
At the same time, they insist that the border must not become a back door for avoiding checks and duties on goods heading for the EU single market.

b>

That’s been happening for long enough while we are still a member of the EU. Haven’t the EU noticed? What do they think will change with any kind of border, hard or not? The smugglers will still be in business.
Maybe there is some secret product to be launched that we will have in the UK much cheaper than the EU nations.

[Slip]

Please provide details of this 'smuggling' that has been going over the 'border' between EU UK and EU Ireland.

[Loiner]

Please provide details of this 'smuggling' that has been going over the 'border' between EU UK and EU Ireland.

Fuel is an obvious one and I believe soap powder too. The smugglers tend to not publicise it much. What do you need? I might know a man.

[welovesundaysatspace]

6 hours ago, Loiner said:

That’s been happening for long enough while we are still a member of the EU.

Because there is no border as long as you are a member of the EU. 

 

Quote

 What do they think will change with any kind of border, hard or not?

Less smuggling. Better chance of detecting smuggling. Could be one of the reasons why probably all countries in the world have borders around their territory, no?

 

Anyway the EU’s borders are not your or the Uk’s business. You can keep your own borders open if you want to. 

 

Edited September 6, 2019 by welovesundaysatspace

[kamahele]

11 hours ago, Joinaman said:

Remind us all again what the EU has offered to end this stalemate ?

Remind us all again how, putting standard customs and immigration checks ,  the same as in most other countries, would cause the irish to start murdering innocent people again

i dont hear how they are going to murder the french, Spanish or other people, just because they have to stop and show their passport and have their vehicles inspected 

The EU doesn't have to offer anything. It is the UK that wants out, they aren't being kicked out by the UK.

[Baerboxer]

15 hours ago, Joinaman said:

Remind us all again what the EU has offered to end this stalemate ?

Remind us all again how, putting standard customs and immigration checks ,  the same as in most other countries, would cause the irish to start murdering innocent people again

i dont hear how they are going to murder the french, Spanish or other people, just because they have to stop and show their passport and have their vehicles inspected 

 

The EU won't offer diddly squat. As far as they're concerned they got the deal they wanted. Very large payment, backstop that ties the UK to their rules and decisions until they say different and in return they might one day, sometime, when convenient to them, offer to start talking about trade!

 

Why would they re-open negotiations? Parliament has made it clear they'll block a no deal.

[beautifulthailand99]

16 hours ago, Loiner said:

Fuel is an obvious one and I believe soap powder too. The smugglers tend to not publicise it much. What do you need? I might know a man.

all good Brexiteers know the Irish don't wash so that makes the soap powder another Brexit lie. !????

[Loiner]

all good Brexiteers know the Irish don't wash so that makes the soap powder another Brexit lie. ![emoji16]

So says a Remainer. Not sure that’s what Brexiteers think. Why not take it up with the Irish Remainers?

[Loiner]

 
Anyway the EU’s borders are not your or the Uk’s business. You can keep your own borders open if you want to. 
 

And the UK side have committed to keeping our side open.
Have you decided who will be building and operating your EU border? So long as it’s Garda and imported Europeans who are taking all the flak and violence promised by your Remainer mates.

[beautifulthailand99]

3 minutes ago, Loiner said:

So says a Remainer. Not sure that’s what Brexiteers think. Why not take it up with the Irish Remainers?

It appears you are right Mr Loiner and apparently garlic could become a hooky product in the event of a hard brexit. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/24/washing-powder-being-smuggled-across-border-in-northern-ireland-brexit-mps-told

[samran]

34 minutes ago, Loiner said:

And the UK side have committed to keeping our side open.
Have you decided who will be building and operating your EU border? So long as it’s Garda and imported Europeans who are taking all the flak and violence promised by your Remainer mates.

So what was the point of ‘taking back control’ if you are just going to leave your borders open for all and sundry just to waltz over? 

[Loiner]

It appears you are right Mr Loiner and apparently garlic could become a hooky product in the event of a hard brexit. 
 
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/24/washing-powder-being-smuggled-across-border-in-northern-ireland-brexit-mps-told

Something as mundane as washing powder being smuggled and it shows the EU exactly for what it is - a protectionist racket.
Just think how many cheap oranges could find their smuggled way into European juice when they bypass EU tariffs.
Just think how many other cheaper products will arrive in the UK free of those tariffs after Brexit.

[Loiner]

So what was the point of ‘taking back control’ if you are just going to leave your borders open for all and sundry just to waltz over? 

Yes, that’s all about taking back control, our control, we decide not the EU.

[RichardColeman]

Wonder what plan Nicola Sturgeon has to get round having an open EU border with a non-EU country when the UK eventually does leave and Scotlands votes leave. Wonder if the EU will suddenly say it does not matter to someone wanting to join, only leave ! 

Personally I think England should agree to let Scotland go, only to see Sturgeon come grovelling back as she can't join the EU with an open border and everything needs 100% inspection travelling into scotland by land.

 

 

[kiwiaussie]

This is crazy! 

Edited September 7, 2019 by kiwiaussie

[puipuitom]

On 9/5/2019 at 8:07 PM, Slip said:

Please provide details of this 'smuggling' that has been going over the 'border' between EU UK and EU Ireland.

Both are still in the EU, so till 31 Oct.. no use.

 

But to tell some of my working experience:

When the Greeks joined the EU, a minimum import price of raisins was negotiated ( could cost up till DM 300/ton if price was under this MIP. By coincidence, not the Californians, the Chileans, South Africans nor Australians were hit, but ONLY the Turks. Via the open border with Switzerland, in one year, 800.000 tons of raisins were imported into the EU.

The EU will NEVER accept such a hole in their controlled borders anymore.

[Loiner]

19 minutes ago, puipuitom said:

Both are still in the EU, so till 31 Oct.. no use.

 

But to tell some of my working experience:

 

When the Greeks joined the EU, a minimum import price of raisins was negotiated ( could cost up till DM 300/ton if price was under this MIP. By coincidence, not the Californians, the Chileans, South Africans nor Australians were hit, but ONLY the Turks. Via the open border with Switzerland, in one year, 800.000 tons of raisins were imported into the EU.

 

The EU will NEVER accept such a hole in their controlled borders anymore.

 

That is the protectionist EU racket for you. Smuggling goes on even while we are still a member, because of market prices, differing VAT and tax regimes. Let's get out of the EU anyway,

 

Why should the Europeans of various countries not enjoy the cheaper prices of world wide raisins if they an be imported from elsewhere? Remainers are trying to tie the UK populace to tariff increased costs of a multitude of products, as demonstrated above. Why should we pay more to support the prices of any product for Euro peasant farmers? Try the orange tariff, that's an obvious one.

[kingdong]

On 9/5/2019 at 7:07 PM, Slip said:

Please provide details of this 'smuggling' that has been going over the 'border' between EU UK and EU Ireland.

Contraceptives

[7by7]

On 9/6/2019 at 8:57 PM, Loiner said:

On 9/6/2019 at 5:10 PM, samran said:

So what was the point of ‘taking back control’ if you are just going to leave your borders open for all and sundry just to waltz over? 

Yes, that’s all about taking back control, our control, we decide not the EU.

 Point missed 100%; not surprised.

[7by7]

On 9/8/2019 at 8:02 PM, Loiner said:

That is the protectionist EU racket for you. Smuggling goes on even while we are still a member, because of market prices, differing VAT and tax regimes. Let's get out of the EU anyway,

 EU protectionism? How so?

 

You admit that market forces act differently in different EU member states. You admit that EU members can, and do, set their own VAT and other tax rates.

 

 How does that equate with the oft quoted slogan about taking back control? From what you've said here, we already have control!

 

 

[Loiner]

 Point missed 100%; not surprised.

Your Remaining friend was trying to make an erroneous point, that taking back control means we must erect fences and watch towers on the NI border. Not so.
Taking back control means that we can have whatever infrastructure or not, we decide necessary at the NI border. We can also decide who moves freely across that border.
That’s control.

I’m surprised that you don’t understand. Then again, maybe not....

[Loiner]

 EU protectionism? How so?
 
You admit that market forces act differently in different EU member states. You admit that EU members can, and do, set their own VAT and other tax rates.
 
 How does that equate with the oft quoted slogan about taking back control? From what you've said here, we already have control!
 

Apart from being another Remainer plot, EU protectionism is what was obvious from the OP.
Tariff free products from a Free Trade UK could be smuggled across their border. The EU could lose their control.

I’m surprised you didn’t understand that either.

[Laughing Gravy]

On 9/9/2019 at 1:31 AM, puipuitom said:

The EU will NEVER accept such a hole in their controlled borders anymore.

That's is the funniest thing I have seen for ages. Over 20 EU countries are the holes that you mention that the EU will never accept.  Thank you.

[7by7]

17 hours ago, Loiner said:

Your Remaining friend was trying to make an erroneous point, that taking back control means we must erect fences and watch towers on the NI border. Not so

 Where does he say that? Where has anyone said that?

 

17 hours ago, Loiner said:

Taking back control means that we can have whatever infrastructure or not, we decide necessary at the NI border. We can also decide who moves freely across that border.
That’s control.

I’m surprised that you don’t understand. Then again, maybe not....

 

Will we be able to decide on what infrastructure, if any, to have on our side of the border? Of course we will. Hopefully in a bilateral agreement, but if we leave without a deal it will be up to us.

 

The same with who and what goods cross into the UK from the Republic. Although if we leave without a deal it will be the WTO who determine what tariffs we have to apply to those goods. How is that taking back control?

 

If we do leave without a deal we will have no control over the infrastructure on the Republic's side of the border, no control over who and what goods cross from the UK into the Republic.

 

I'm not surprised that you deliberately don't understand any of that.

 

I say 'deliberately' because I don't believe the only possible alternative.

 

17 hours ago, Loiner said:

Apart from being another Remainer plot, EU protectionism is what was obvious from the OP.
Tariff free products from a Free Trade UK could be smuggled across their border. The EU could lose their control.

I’m surprised you didn’t understand that either.

 

 EU means we are in a customs union with the other 27 members. That is why there is no need for customs controls between the UK and RoI nor any other EU member.

 

When we leave the EU we will no longer be in that customs union; hence the need for some sort of agreement otherwise we will have the mess of no deal and all the customs controls that would entail; on both sides. Not just between the UK and RoI, but between the UK and all EU members.

 

I'm not surprised you deliberately don't understand that either.