Who's entitled to our the House if my Thai Wife Dies?

[khaepmu]

In the event of my Thai wife's death (we are legally married) I was wondering what I can do with the house. I know I have a legal right to live in the house after her death but who gets it when I pass. I don't think I am allowed to sell it if I don't want to live there and I have been told I have no right to leave it to anyone.  My wife isn't too eager to leave it to anyone in her family (both parents are dead). We have a will but the house isn't included. 

[jastheace]

you have a will ? job done. that is it.

I understand your concerns. I think I you know what is what.

maybe redo the will or just know that own bricks but not the land, friendly with immediate family? that may change if wifey passes away b4 you. what you really want to happen ?

 

I get the feeling you know what to do in the real world. that's it. good luck though....

[amykat]

Why do you think you have a legal right to live in the house if your wife dies before you?  What have you written up?  If the house is in her name, and it was left out of any will, then it will pass to her relatives and you have no right to live there.  Unless you did something special ...if so what was it??

[Matzzon]

If your wife dies, you will not have any rights to house or land, without eralier agree ment and some changes.

The first thing you can check is if the land department will agree to separate the land and the house. If you then put the house in your name, you will have the ownership of the house, and then make a land lease contract between you and your wife for as long as possible that is legal and valid after her death.

Another way would be to sign a usufruct, that gives you the right to live in the house as long as oyu live or want to stay, but that no gives you any kind of owners rights.

Regarding your wife want not want the house to go to close family. That would mean she have to change the legal rights of children or others. That is something very hard, almost impossible, and she can only do that with a lawyer by herself.

[jastheace]

2 minutes ago, Matzzon said:

If your wife dies, you will not have any rights to house or land, without eralier agree ment and some changes.

The first thing you can check is if the land department will agree to separate the land and the house. If you then put the house in your name, you will have the ownership of the house, and then make a land lease contract between you and your wife for as long as possible that is legal and valid after her death.

Another way would be to sign a usufruct, that gives you the right to live in the house as long as oyu live or want to stay, but that no gives you any kind of owners rights.

Regarding your wife want not want the house to go to close family. That would mean she have to change the legal rights of children or others. That is something very hard, almost impossible, and she can only do that with a lawyer by herself.

yep , nice one matzzon, I was sort of trying to say that. 'tis early for me, but you've summed it up in a nutshell

 

[BritManToo]

4 hours ago, khaepmu said:

We have a will but the house isn't included. 

Why didn't she leave it to you in the will?

 

Easiest way is everything, including the house to be left to you, with you as executor.

Then you, as executor, never bother to complete probate, leaving the house in your dead wife's name.

Edited September 8, 2019 by BritManToo

[scorecard]

4 hours ago, amykat said:

Why do you think you have a legal right to live in the house if your wife dies before you?  What have you written up?  If the house is in her name, and it was left out of any will, then it will pass to her relatives and you have no right to live there.  Unless you did something special ...if so what was it??

Seems to me the OP is making too many assumptions / listening to too many armchair lawyers etc., on this and needs some solid specific legal advice. And yes it is an important subject which needs specific answers.

[Dario]

Can I leave my house with a will to a 3rd party, for example our foster daughter?

[Capt Rob]

4 hours ago, Matzzon said:

If your wife dies, you will not have any rights to house or land, without eralier agree ment and some changes.

The first thing you can check is if the land department will agree to separate the land and the house. If you then put the house in your name, you will have the ownership of the house, and then make a land lease contract between you and your wife for as long as possible that is legal and valid after her death.

Another way would be to sign a usufruct, that gives you the right to live in the house as long as oyu live or want to stay, but that no gives you any kind of owners rights.

Regarding your wife want not want the house to go to close family. That would mean she have to change the legal rights of children or others. That is something very hard, almost impossible, and she can only do that with a lawyer by herself.

As outlined here and elsewhere but some amplification and options :

 

Possibly the house was paid for by you - have a loan doc drawn up for you loaning your wife, interest free the amount expended in house construction purchase.

A usufruct allowing you to live in the house / Not sure how that would work as the house would presumably be left to someone other than you / if the house was left to you, you have 12 months to sell. A will is definately called for as is legal advice.

[Gulfsailor]

Just a quick remark; contracts and agreements between husband and wife are not legally binding. Any other party (or the government) can contest it and the contract gets invalidated by the court.

[scorecard]

5 hours ago, Matzzon said:

If your wife dies, you will not have any rights to house or land, without eralier agree ment and some changes.

The first thing you can check is if the land department will agree to separate the land and the house. If you then put the house in your name, you will have the ownership of the house, and then make a land lease contract between you and your wife for as long as possible that is legal and valid after her death.

Another way would be to sign a usufruct, that gives you the right to live in the house as long as oyu live or want to stay, but that no gives you any kind of owners rights.

Regarding your wife want not want the house to go to close family. That would mean she have to change the legal rights of children or others. That is something very hard, almost impossible, and she can only do that with a lawyer by herself.

 Distribution on an estate is covered in the Thai commercial code which clearly specifies who gets what etc., but IT ONLY APPLIES WHEN THERE IS NO WILL.

 

Ultimately the person making the will has every right to their own decisions on who gets what upon their death and it absolutely doesn't have to follow the commercial code.

 

Here's an example - my Thai son; he trusts his wife 100% but doesn't trust all of his wife's siblings who would love to get their sticky hands on sons' land and big house and sell it and split the money amongst themselves, they have spoken about what they want several times including that son's 3 kids should get nothing 'they can grow up and make their own way in life'.

 

So my son engaged a trusted lawyer, known to the entire family for many years to help him create his will so that his wife gets nothing* and his entire estate is split equally amongst his 3 kids but the kids must provide a comfortable place for their mother to live until she dies and the kids must pay all costs. (There is already a usufruct on the land and house indicating that I have the right to live in the house until I die. The only person who can change that is me.)

 

*Son's wife is happy with the above because she is the youngest sibling in her original family and her older siblings have already several times tried to intimidate her to threaten her husband (my son) unless they receive big cash handouts (now) and if he doesn't change his will to give his estate to them and to demand that he cancel the usufruct (which he can't, I am the only person who can change / cancel the usufruct). And son's wife is frightened of her older brothers and sisters.

 

My point, wills absolutely don't have to follow the Thai commercial code, totally up to what the person making the will wants. "That is something very hard, almost impossible, and she can only do that with a lawyer by herself.'

 

'hard', 'impossible', that's not true. But I do agree any will, especially in circumstances being described here should be written by an experienced lawyer but must reflect the wishes of the writer and the lawyer should not be allowed to add his/her personal opinions. When this is discussed there is nothing whatever (in law or in common practice) to prevent the husband / wife being present and contribute to the discussion.  

 

___________________________________

 

Further, Thai and farang can write their will at the local amphur office with an amphur officer helping. However if this service is used note that in 99% of cases the amphur officer has very little to zero legal training or training in how to write a watertight will.

 

An example, when my son got married he and his wife visiting the local amphur office to write wills. The amphur lady claimed that it's Thai law the husband must mention, in his will, that he bequeaths 100,000Baht to his mother in law. My son queried this and the over-confident amphur lady was adamant that it's in the Thai law.

 

My son called our family lawyer who was nearby and he went to the amphur office, Lawyer asked the over-confident amphur lady to quote the section numbers etc., she was referring too. She couldn't (because there is no such law). Amphur lady then disappeared, son asked to speak to the supervisor who never appeared. Son and his wife abandoned writing the will at an amphur office and walked out. 

 

Later the lawyer mentioned that many times wills written at amphur offices cannot be used because the wording in one paragraph is ambiguous / conflicting with the wording in another paragraph, etc.

 

Be careful.  

Edited September 8, 2019 by scorecard

[scorecard]

33 minutes ago, Dario said:

Can I leave my house with a will to a 3rd party, for example our foster daughter?

See post #5 in this thread.

 

27 minutes ago, Gulfsailor said:

Just a quick remark; contracts and agreements between husband and wife are not legally binding. Any other party (or the government) can contest it and the contract gets invalidated by the court.

 What law do you base your comments on? 

 

 

 

[BritManToo]

31 minutes ago, Gulfsailor said:

Just a quick remark; contracts and agreements between husband and wife are not legally binding. Any other party (or the government) can contest it and the contract gets invalidated by the court.

Agreements between husband and wife may be cancelled unilaterally by either party.

That doesn't mean they aren't valid, or any other party can contest it.

Just not binding between the husband and wife.

Edited September 8, 2019 by BritManToo

[khaepmu]

Our house was built many years ago upcountry. It's quite old now but land value has risen significantly since we built the house 20 years ago. I am semi-retired now and we are both living in the house. She told me no one would bother me if I wanted continue to live there in the event that she passes away before me. I was told (and don't necessarily believe it) that since we are legally married I have a right to live in the house if she should pass before me. But I cannot sell it or leave it to anyone when I die. I am not all that bothered about who gets it when I die. I guess the best thing is to update the will. When I ask my wife who she would like to leave the house to when she dies she seems  totally non committed. ( we have no kids) She said possibly one of her nieces but her relatives all live in other parts of the country and we rarely see them. 

[BritManToo]

2 minutes ago, khaepmu said:

Our house was built many years ago upcountry. It's quite old now but land value has risen significantly since we built the house 20 years ago. I am semi-retired now and we are both living in the house. She told me no one would bother me if I wanted continue to live there in the event that she passes away before me. I was told (and don't necessarily believe it) that since we are legally married I have a right to live in the house if she should pass before me. But I cannot sell it or leave it to anyone when I die. I am not all that bothered about who gets it when I die. I guess the best thing is to update the will. When I ask my wife who she would like to leave the house to when she dies she seems  totally non committed. ( we have no kids) She said possibly one of her nieces but her relatives all live in other parts of the country and we rarely see them. 

You can't trust any Thai, or any Thai lawyer to tell you the facts.

Make a simple will at the local Amphur office, using the form they provide, it can't be contested.

Wills made by a lawyer can be contested.

[Chazar]

53 minutes ago, Victornoir said:

Totally wrong.

In Thai law (as elsewhere) a usufruct gives you the right of total occupancy of the premises exactly like a lease. For example, no changes to the premises or the land can be made without your consent.

For Khaepmu, you must go with your wife at the local land office to register a usufruct for life on the house.
provide about 5000b of costs. Contract written immediately on the spot in my own case.

Usufruct cost me about  50baht 10 years  ago at the land office.

[DannyCarlton]

1 hour ago, Victornoir said:

Totally wrong.

In Thai law (as elsewhere) a usufruct gives you the right of total occupancy of the premises exactly like a lease. For example, no changes to the premises or the land can be made without your consent.

For Khaepmu, you must go with your wife at the local land office to register a usufruct for life on the house.
provide about 5000b of costs. Contract written immediately on the spot in my own case.

Ufustruct not available to farangs in Pattaya.

[RichardColeman]

Sadly, I suggest if the wife gets ill, sell it and buy a condo before she dies !

[DannyCarlton]

1 minute ago, RichardColeman said:

Sadly, I suggest if the wife gets ill, sell it and buy a condo before she dies !

My biggest worry is when she goes out on her motorbike as she refuses to wear a helmet.

[lust]

Sell now and rent 

[pmh2009]

There is a Buddhist law that Thailand, Sir Lanka and Burma all have --- they go next of kin (name on the house) ... BUT if the owner is a foreigner, his blood needs to claim it legally, if no one shows up, then goes to the citizen of the country... no 2 ways about it!!!

Edited September 8, 2019 by pmh2009

[scorecard]

54 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

You can't trust any Thai, or any Thai lawyer to tell you the facts.

Make a simple will at the local Amphur office, using the form they provide, it can't be contested.

Wills made by a lawyer can be contested.

"it can't be contested." I don't believe that's true and my comment comes from statements made by my trusted family lawyer. His point is that if there are conflicting words / sentences in a will then it cannot be used, which seems to be very logical. He has also mentioned that people sometimes try to write things into wills which are simply illegal. in such cases the will cannot be used (in other words it can be contested) and that's regardless of whether it's written at an amphur office or not.

 

I agree everybody should be careful of trusting lawyers whether it's Thailand or any country and there have been several cases in the past of farang lawyers in Thailand doing very tricky immoral things, and yes it's not easy to a totally trustworthy lawyer.  

[scorecard]

16 minutes ago, pmh2009 said:

There is a Buddhist law that Thailand, Sir Lanka and Burma all have --- they go next of kin (name on the house) ... BUT if the owner is a foreigner, his blood needs to claim it legally, if no one shows up, then goes to the citizen of the country... no 2 ways about it!!!

Buddhist law? Is not the law enacted by parliament and the laws enacted by parliament of Thailand reign over Buddhist law if there is any such thing.

 

The commercial code of Thailand certainly respects next of kin if there is no will. 

[scorecard]

48 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

Ufustruct not available to farangs in Pattaya.

Here we go again, usufruct is not governed by locations or regions, it's the law of Thailand.  

[scorecard]

59 minutes ago, Chazar said:

Usufruct cost me about  50baht 10 years  ago at the land office.

100baht a couple of years back at Chiang Mai LTO>

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

You can't trust any Thai, or any Thai lawyer to tell you the facts.

Make a simple will at the local Amphur office, using the form they provide, it can't be contested.

Wills made by a lawyer can be contested.

 In reality a will made at any location / office or whatever can be contested in court if say a daughter or a son believes they have been very unfairly treated.

 

The court must listen but only in extreme cases would the court adjust / change the will.  

 

[DannyCarlton]

1 minute ago, scorecard said:

Here we go again, usufruct is not governed by locations or regions, it's the law of Thailand.  

Here we go again. The head of the Land Office in Pattaya, declared that Foreigners cannot take out a Ufustruct. I have checked with lawyers and at the Land Office. No chance in Pattaya.

 

Apparently he is correct to the letter of the law but I'm not aware of it being enforced anywhere else in Thailand. If you can find a way to secure me a ufustruct on my property, I'd be very grateful, it's my biggest worry.

[BritManToo]

20 minutes ago, scorecard said:

I don't believe that's true and my comment comes from statements made by my trusted family lawyer.

Never trust a Thai, especially one pretending to be a lawyer.

[Orton Rd]

16 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Here we go again, usufruct is not governed by locations or regions, it's the law of Thailand.  

My land office would not do one either

[natway09]

Forget the house for a minute, who owns the land ?

If it is your wife who has a legal title then get her to make a will 

This will give you at least 12 months legal right to live there & arrange a sale

which can be extended for another 12 months at the land office.