TM 30 confused

[Delight]

 

 

My circumstance No. 1

Just returned from a UK holiday.

Q Do I need to register with the TM30 people that I am now back in my condo?

 

My circumstance No.2

I spend time (always 3 days) twice a year in my Thai wife’s house in Kalasin.

I understand that she has to submit a TM 30 form for each visit. I assume at Immigration Kalasin

I further understand that I have to advise  the TM 30 people to confirm my return.

I am guessing that I simply go to my local immigration office and submit a completed TM 30.

Q Does my wife and I have a choice i.e. Visit Immigration offices or submit the activity on line or a combination of both i.e my wife does the visit to immigration and I do it on line?

 

Edited September 9, 2019 by Delight

[Matzzon]

Number 1: Yes

 

Mumber 2: Online

[Jip99]

Yes to all of those................... depending on the requirements of your local immigration office.

 

One obvious comment.....if your wife does not report your presence, and you do not report your return, nobody will be any the wiser.

 

I doubt Kalasin Immigration will have lookouts posted around the province.

[berybert]

Sign up for the online service if your local office allows it, then no need to waste time going to immigration.

Why bother registering at your wifes house and again when you get home. No need to bother with it. Waste of your and your wifes time and effort. 

 

[fletchsmile]

Are you the condo owner as per the house registration book/ tabian bahn for the condo?

 

TM30 is the responsibility of the house/condo owner.

 

TM28 is the responsibility of the foreigner

 

Circ1

(1) The condo owner should register your TM30

(2) Nothing for you to do under TM28 as the foreigner. You already told them your address at the airport on coming back from the UK 

 

Circ2

(3) Your wife as the house owner should register your TM30 in Kalasin

(4) You as the foreigner should also complete a TM28 in Kalasin, and they like to see the TM30 as part of that

On return

(5) The condo owner should register a TM30

(6) You as the foreigner should register a TM28, and they like to see the TM30 has been done again to match

 

Do all the TM30's online. Print a copy out for whenever you as the foreigner do a TM28. Unfortunately TM28's by the foreigner need to be done in person, or via a power of attorney to send someone else

 

Of course, if your wife didn't do your TM30 in Kalasin at step (3), then there would be no obvious trail of you having moved address for you to do step (4), nor the condo owner to do step (5) nor for you to do step (6) again.

So skipping step (3) wouldn't be complying with the rules, but would obviously save a lot of time and effort as suggested above. As one of the very few law-abiding citizens in Thailand I would of course not condone such behaviour ????  

On the other hand those naughty villains, would result in only step (1) ever being done by the condo owner, and their paper trail would look complete. Tsk Tsk

 

Cheers

Fletch ????

Edited September 9, 2019 by fletchsmile

[Peterw42]

 

 

 

 

19 minutes ago, fletchsmile said:

Are you the condo owner as per the house registration book/ tabian bahn for the condo?

 

TM30 is the responsibility of the house/condo owner.

 

TM28 is the responsibility of the foreigner

 

Circ1

(1) The condo owner should register your TM30

(2) Nothing for you to do under TM28 as the foreigner. You already told them your address at the airport on coming back from the UK 

 

Circ2

(3) Your wife as the house owner should register your TM30 in Kalasin

(4) You as the foreigner should also complete a TM28 in Kalasin

On return

(5) The condo owner should register a TM30

(6) You as the foreigner should register a TM28

 

Do all the TM30's online. Print a copy out for whenever you as the foreigner do a TM28. Unfortunately TM28's by the foreigner need to be done in person, or via a power of attorney to send someone else

 

Of course, if your wife didn't do your TM30 in Kalasin at step (3), then there would be no obvious trail of you having moved address for you to do step (4), nor the condo owner to do step (5) nor for you to do step (6) again.

So skipping step (3) wouldn't be complying with the rules, but would obviously save a lot of time and effort as suggested above. As one of the very few law-abiding citizens in Thailand I would never of course condone such behaviour ????  

 

Cheers

Fletch ????

A very good answer to advise the OP but I am interested as to why you even mention the TM28 ?

Isn't it the case that its not enforced (anywhere), nobody checks or asks for one when visiting immigration etc. there are no fines or extensions not done because of no TM28.

Yes its a law on the books etc but something we dont need to worry about.

[Peterw42]

3 hours ago, Delight said:

My circumstance No. 1

Just returned from a UK holiday.

Q Do I need to register with the TM30 people that I am now back in my condo?

 

My circumstance No.2

I spend time (always 3 days) twice a year in my Thai wife’s house in Kalasin.

I understand that she has to submit a TM 30 form for each visit. I assume at Immigration Kalasin

I further understand that I have to advise  the TM 30 people to confirm my return.

I am guessing that I simply go to my local immigration office and submit a completed TM 30.

Q Does my wife and I have a choice i.e. Visit Immigration offices or submit the activity on line or a combination of both i.e my wife does the visit to immigration and I do it on line?

There is really only one TM30 you ever have to worry about, that is the TM30 for your current (home) address when you visit immigration.

 

 

[fletchsmile]

33 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

 

 

 

 

A very good answer to advise the OP but I am interested as to why you even mention the TM28 ?

Isn't it the case that its not enforced (anywhere), nobody checks or asks for one when visiting immigration etc. there are no fines or extensions not done because of no TM28.

Yes its a law on the books etc but something we dont need to worry about.

I mention TM28 as that is our responsibility as the foreigner. (Section 37)

 

TM30 is the responsibility of the house owner. (Section 38)

 

So just to be clear on who should be doing what ????

 

People like OP and subsequent replies are mixing up the two, so just adding to the confusion.

 

eg OP: Circ1: "Do I [as the foreigner] need to register with the TM30 people" 

eg first reply: Yes

eg second reply: Yes to all

 

Correct Answer: No you [as the foreigner] don't need to register with the TM30 people as the foreigner, under circumstance 1 on arrival from the UK. The house/condo owner has to register with the TM30 people. Not you. {unless of course you're the condo owner as well as the foreigner - which is why I asked LOL}

 

As for TM28 not being enforced - seems to me it's getting attention too. I was getting a certificate of residence as well as changing my address (we've actually moved, so clause 3 section 37).

For clarification I asked about a scenario as above as we're going away in Thailand for a week's holiday next month. Immigration said the hotel we were staying at would do a TM30 (they've been doing this for years), I should go to immigration for a TM28, on return my wife should do TM30 again and I should do a TM28 (section 37 clause 4 in contrast to 3 last time) LOL

 

If they are getting picky on the TM30's it's only going to be a matter of time before they get picky on the TM28's. As otherwise the paper trails won't match in their systems LOL. 

 

There's also posters and VDOs at immigration appearing on the subject, eg: here's a poster - I didn't see this one, but did see a VDO:

 

Note: Section 37. Alien's repsonsibility for travelling to another province. 90 Days. Alien's responsibility. Not Section 38. That's the TM30 and owner's responsibility. 

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2019 by fletchsmile

[steve187]

rerigester your address  on return,, forget about the trip within Thailand, why make thing difficult

[Peterw42]

4 minutes ago, fletchsmile said:

Correct Answer: No you [as the foreigner] don't need to register with the TM30 people as the foreigner, under circumstance 1 on arrival from the UK. The house/condo owner has to register with the TM30 people. Not you. {unless of course you're the condo owner as well as the foreigner - which is why I asked LOL}

Thats not always the case, as the form says, its owner, housemaster "OR" possessor does TM30. Immigration could (and do) consider a tenant etc just as liable.

 

The actual legislation defines possessor as owner or tenant

[Peterw42]

24 minutes ago, fletchsmile said:

As for TM28 not being enforced - seems to me it's getting attention too. I was getting a certificate of residence as well as changing my address (we've actually moved, so clause 3 section 37).

For clarification I asked about a scenario as above as we're going away in Thailand for a week's holiday next month. Immigration said the hotel we were staying at would do a TM30 (they've been doing this for years), I should go to immigration for a TM28, on return my wife should do TM30 again and I should do a TM28 (section 37 clause 4 in contrast to 3 last time) LOL

Were you specifically asked for a TM28 or did you volunteer one. If you didnt do one what would have happend ? Nothing, there are no checks.

Even when they are fining you for not doing a TM30, they are not checking TM28s or fining etc.

Immigration really just accepts it as a change of "permanent" address. TM30 and rocking up for your first 90 day achieves the same thing.

 

You know there is a law in Thailand that you cant leave home with no underwear on, luckily, like the TM28 its not enforced.

[fletchsmile]

Peter, 

 

I wouldn't disagree with you, as the whole thing seems a mess among immigration as well. No doubt like many other things different people will get different stories on different days from immigration on those trying to do.

 

What I'd add though:

 

When you say: "The actual legislation defines possessor as owner or tenant"

 

- Not sure where you think you saw that but the actual legislation doesn't actually define possessor. If you look under Section 4 of the Immigration Act it defines terms like "House-Master" including it being the "chief possessor" but doesn't actually define "posssessor".

The form also says Possessor which is one possible translation from the Thai wording

http://www.samutprakanimmigration.go.th/downloads/Immigration_Act.pdf

 

- Not sure where you got the idea from they are "jointly liable". That seems like your interpretation

 

- Phuket Immigration officer totally disagrees with you. He's gone on record as saying:

 

Quote

 

If a landlord refuses to – or is unable to – comply by filing a TM30 to report the foreigner as staying, or returning to stay, at the foreigner’s registered address, that is not the foreigner’s responsibliity, Col Nareuwat explained.

“All the foreigner has to do is submit a TM28. That’s all the foreigner is responsible for. If the foreigner is applying for an extension to stay, they need not worry about whether or not their landlord has reported them through a TM30 – it will not affect the foreigner’s application,” he added.

“They will not be told to leave the Kingdom if their landlord has not filed a TM30 reporting them,” he assured.

 

https://www.thephuketnews.com/right-on-time- phuket-immigration-explain-tm30-and-tm28-requirements-for-reporting-foreigners-72693.php#7SVLlzIZXmJh1dCh.97

 

and he did it again saying:

 

Quote

A simple notification of address completed by the TM28 form is all that is required by those renting or leasing their abodes in order to submit their application for a one-year “extension” to a permit to stay. (See story here.)

https://www.thephuketnews.com/phuket-opinion-tm30-storm-in-a-teacup-72697.php#9GoIHwgFKX5KTThJ.97

 

and a Thai immigration panel at the FCCT said:

 

Quote

Long-termers, foreign retirees, foreigners married to Thais, and foreigners travelling a lot for work, etc must also report their whereabouts within 24 hours with the TM28 form when they stay overnight at locations other than their registered primary residence. 

https://thethaiger.com/hot-news/expats/thai-immigration-bristles-about-tm30-revolt-as-it-copes-with-pr-disaster

 

----------------------------------------------------------

Like I say immigration outlined the rules to me when I asked, as I described

 

How different places decide to enforce what people are doing or not will no doubt be a saga that unfolds as it goes along. Seems like a few locations are also waiting before committing to anything

 

As it stands now, I think a foreigner would be entitled to say it's not my fault the house owner didn't do a TM30 (unless they're the owner themselves). But if they did that, they'd then likely have to demonstrate they've done their bit on the TM28

 

In practice, the easiest thing will be to:

 

1) say in your head "<deleted> it. Whatever."

 

2) Smile

 

3) Pay a fine of whatever.

 

4) Smile again and carry on

 

The cost of the fines is minimal. No point arguing with them

 

Cheers

Fletch ????

Edited September 9, 2019 by fletchsmile

[Max69xl]

4 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

 

 

 

 

A very good answer to advise the OP but I am interested as to why you even mention the TM28 ?

Isn't it the case that its not enforced (anywhere), nobody checks or asks for one when visiting immigration etc. there are no fines or extensions not done because of no TM28.

Yes its a law on the books etc but something we dont need to worry about.

"TM30 is the responsibility of the house/condo owner"

That's not correct: The law says

owner/housemaster (it's like a landlord)/possessor 

In several Immigration offices the possessor can even be the tenant.

 

 

[Max69xl]

1 hour ago, fletchsmile said:

Peter, 

 

I wouldn't disagree with you, as the whole thing seems a mess among immigration as well. No doubt like many other things different people will get different stories on different days from immigration on those trying to do.

 

What I'd add though:

 

When you say: "The actual legislation defines possessor as owner or tenant"

 

- Not sure where you think you saw that but the actual legislation doesn't actually define possessor. If you look under Section 4 of the Immigration Act it defines terms like "House-Master" including it being the "chief possessor" but doesn't actually define "posssessor".

The form also says Possessor which is one possible translation from the Thai wording

http://www.samutprakanimmigration.go.th/downloads/Immigration_Act.pdf

 

- Not sure where you got the idea from they are "jointly liable". That seems like your interpretation

 

- Phuket Immigration officer totally disagrees with you. He's gone on record as saying:

 

https://www.thephuketnews.com/right-on-time- phuket-immigration-explain-tm30-and-tm28-requirements-for-reporting-foreigners-72693.php#7SVLlzIZXmJh1dCh.97

 

and he did it again saying:

 

https://www.thephuketnews.com/phuket-opinion-tm30-storm-in-a-teacup-72697.php#9GoIHwgFKX5KTThJ.97

 

and a Thai immigration panel at the FCCT said:

 

https://thethaiger.com/hot-news/expats/thai-immigration-bristles-about-tm30-revolt-as-it-copes-with-pr-disaster

 

----------------------------------------------------------

Like I say immigration outlined the rules to me when I asked, as I described

 

How different places decide to enforce what people are doing or not will no doubt be a saga that unfolds as it goes along. Seems like a few locations are also waiting before committing to anything

 

As it stands now, I think a foreigner would be entitled to say it's not my fault the house owner didn't do a TM30 (unless they're the owner themselves). But if they did that, they'd then likely have to demonstrate they've done their bit on the TM28

 

In practice, the easiest thing will be to:

 

1) say in your head "<deleted> it. Whatever."

 

2) Smile

 

3) Pay a fine of whatever.

 

4) Smile again and carry on

 

The cost of the fines is minimal. No point arguing with them

 

Cheers

Fletch ????

In many immigration offices the TM28 won't help you a bit. It's officially used for "Change of Address". That means when for example an expat moves to another province. Then he must submit the TM28 to the new immigration office, but the TM30 must also be submitted. Now he can start doing the 90 days reports and extensions at the new Immigration office. 

And the law says: the owner/housemaster/possessor shall submit the TM30.

The owner doesn't have to be the possessor. A tenant can be the possessor because he's in possession of his condo. Several immigration offices accepts the tenant to self report the TM30.

Edited September 9, 2019 by Max69xl
More info

[fletchsmile]

3 hours ago, Max69xl said:

"TM30 is the responsibility of the house/condo owner"

That's not correct: The law says

owner/housemaster (it's like a landlord)/possessor 

In several Immigration offices the possessor can even be the tenant.

 

 

The law actually says: "The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager"

 

Given the OP said (1) "my condo" and (2) "my wife's house" - there's no point talking about hotel manager LOL

 

Hence I was just making the distinction between foreigner himself (obliged to do TM28) and the person obliged to do the TM30.

 

Would help if you read the context LOL

 

Edited September 9, 2019 by fletchsmile

[fletchsmile]

3 hours ago, Max69xl said:

In many immigration offices the TM28 won't help you a bit. It's officially used for "Change of Address". That means when for example an expat moves to another province. Then he must submit the TM28 to the new immigration office, 

 

No. Read the Thai text and then read the English translation of the Immigration text. LOL

 

The TM28 has 2 purposes:

 

1) Change of address under clause 3. Where you are actually changing where your address is / you reside. Doesn't have to be to another province either. It can be a change of residence in the same province for this clause.

 

2) Going to stay/visit somewhere else (i.e temporarily for a visit) Clause 4

 

The Thai language is clearer by choice of words that these are two different scenarios.

 

It's the second usage of the TM28 which mirrors what the house-master/owner/possessor/hotel manager etc does under TM30 LOL

Edited September 9, 2019 by fletchsmile

[fletchsmile]

3 hours ago, Max69xl said:

 

The owner doesn't have to be the possessor. A tenant can be the possessor because he's in possession of his condo. Several immigration offices accepts the tenant to self report the TM30.

Of course the owner doesn't have to be the possessor. Even Thailand isn't that daft LOL That's the whole point of this. Foreigners often stay where Thais own the property LOL

 

A tenant won't be able to do their TM30 reporting alone:

 

A) Online: They will need to upload a copy of

1) Passport - no problem

2) tabian bahn or sales agreement or chanote (if I recall correctly). The tenant won't be in possession of these second items unless they get them from the owner

 

B) Similarly, if the foreigner goes and reports the TM30 in person, they won't have the tabian bahn or other docs needed.

 

As mentioned in above posts, that some immigration offices do things different doesn't surprise me at all. That's life in Thailand LOL

 

BUT: That's not Phuket's way as probably the most vocal Thai official, nor the way I asked at my immigration what needs doing, nor what they said at the FCCT forum 

 

 

[fletchsmile]

One final post on this, and why I think the Phuket Immigration officer's interpretaion, as well as the panel at the FCCT conference, and the immigration I spoke personally too have the most accurate interpretations, in addition to my own interpretation:

 

Section 37 deals with the responsibilities of the "alien" - that's clear. That's what it says about the foreigners obligations - regardless of in practice whether enforced or not

 

Section 38 deals with the "The house–master, the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager where the alien ... has stayed"

 

Section 38 is basically talking about the person responsible (for want of a better word) for where the alien has stayed. Owner is clear. Hotel manager is clear (they could actually own or lease BTW).

The reasons it could apply to a tenant or other "occupier" (another possible translation BTW of the Thai word used) though, would be say someone was renting the place, and you went to temporarily stay or reside with them. It would be more reasonable for the tenant renting to report your presence, than the original owner who may well know nothing about you. Particularly if that person was Thai.

Particularly if you understand about the vaguaries of Thai ownership on land deeds, property etc, and bearing in mind that rights to land and property can also have various rights and levels attached to them. Not to mention they can be let, sub-let etc. 

 

But the key for me is section 37 is the alien themself.

 

Whereas Section 38 is the "person ..... where the alien has stayed", i.e. not the alien themself.

 

Of course if an alien owned the place solely in their own name then the alien could be both. Under section 38 there is no-one else in the picture other than owner-himself to report him. 

Even then I believe the 1979 Immigration Act also pre-dated the original 1979 Condo Act. So the single exception of being the alien and being the owner may not even have existed back in those days. Hence there would always have been a "trusted Thai person" to oversee these devious "aliens". LOL

 

Aside from that though, in all other cases under section 38 there would always have been another person that ranks higher than the alien staying there in the chain of responsibilities. So it will be that person who the TM30 is aimed at.

 

I'm pretty sure that sums up the spirit of what is intended: Alien = TM28. person..... where alien stayed = TM 30.

i.e need to keep tabs on these aliens so get them to present themselves. Just to be safe a Thai person in charge of where they are staying, needs to as well as their national duty, as Thais can be trusted more LOL 

 

Though as with anything at immigration, officers in Thailand becomes laws unto themselves. 

Edited September 9, 2019 by fletchsmile

[KhunFred]

I remember mentioning the TM30 to my girlfriend, and her reply was: "This is why farangs are STUPID". She then informed me that I was perfectly free to report my presence in Bangkok to Immigration, but said that neither she, nor her family were going to do it.  We all laughed.

[lamyai3]

12 hours ago, steve187 said:

rerigester your address  on return,, forget about the trip within Thailand, why make thing difficult

Also the advice of the forum heavyweights

[wasabi]

48 minutes ago, KhunFred said:

I remember mentioning the TM30 to my girlfriend, and her reply was: "This is why farangs are STUPID". She then informed me that I was perfectly free to report my presence in Bangkok to Immigration, but said that neither she, nor her family were going to do it.  We all laughed.

Did she mean Farangs are stupid to come to Thailand with such onerous reporting requirements?

[RBOP]

TM30, TM28, TM47, piles of documents every year on renewal of extensions, pay extortion fine for TM30.... its too much for a family to bear.  I feel I'm treated like a criminal out on parole. Very degrading and humiliating to us "good guys". Been living in Thailand 25 years but this is just too much. I'm planning my exit strategy. Thailand image is dirt now. 

[MJKT2014]

13 hours ago, fletchsmile said:

TM28 is the responsibility of the foreigner

Why not mention the TM27 as well?

[MJKT2014]

16 minutes ago, wasabi said:

Did she mean Farangs are stupid to come to Thailand with such onerous reporting requirements?

She meant that unless you need to do a TM30 then you most likely wouldn't do one unless being in a state of stupid. Ubonjoe will tell you all about it.

[jobsworth]

The issue that is not being addressed is that, while it is the responsibility of a landlord to report the return of a foreigner and probably to pay a fine for not doing so, It becomes the liability of the foreigner to pay the fine, without which the foreigner cannot proceed. For if the fine was in fact levied on the landlord few would want to rent to a foreigner.

 

[brianbbb]

Theirs expats out there that know nothing about TM 30 if it was not for thaivisa most of us would be in the dark why is this country turning so anty foreigner

[Max69xl]

7 hours ago, fletchsmile said:

The law actually says: "The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager"

 

Given the OP said (1) "my condo" and (2) "my wife's house" - there's no point talking about hotel manager LOL

 

Hence I was just making the distinction between foreigner himself (obliged to do TM28) and the person obliged to do the TM30.

 

Would help if you read the context LOL

 

The law says nothing about the manager, he's included in housemaster. And a foreigner is not required to do the TM28,when staying somewhere. If staying for example, with a gf in her condo/apartment,she is the one who has to submit the TM30,no TM28 is needed. That's a fact. 

[Longcut]

19 hours ago, Delight said:

I spend time (always 3 days) twice a year in my Thai wife’s house in Kalasin.

I understand that she has to submit a TM 30 form for each visit. I assume at Immigration Kalasin

I further understand that I have to advise  the TM 30 people to confirm my return.

I am guessing that I simply go to my local immigration office and submit a completed TM 30.

Q Does my wife and I have a choice i.e. Visit Immigration offices or submit the activity on line or a combination of both i.e my wife does the visit to immigration and I do it on line?

I also spend time at my wife's family home in Kalasin from time to time.  It is closer to my home in Roi et, province than it is from my home to immigration in Roi et.  There is no way I am going to report to immigration when I come back home. The distance just makes to whole scenario ridiculous.  Kuchinarai, Kaliasin to my home 26 kilos.  My home to to Roi et, immigration 34 kilos.  

[SymS]

16 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

 

A very good answer to advise the OP but I am interested as to why you even mention the TM28 ?

Isn't it the case that its not enforced (anywhere), nobody checks or asks for one when visiting immigration etc. there are no fines or extensions not done because of no TM28.

I went to Chiang Mai immigration to ask the other day. TM28 must be filled by people on retirement's extension of stay. Others don't need to fill that one, only do the TM30.

[Max69xl]

4 hours ago, KhunFred said:

I remember mentioning the TM30 to my girlfriend, and her reply was: "This is why farangs are STUPID". She then informed me that I was perfectly free to report my presence in Bangkok to Immigration, but said that neither she, nor her family were going to do it.  We all laughed.

Her attitude might cost you a few baht at CW Immigration. ????