1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

 

Where is the EU advocating that?

 

The EU, not individual politicians.

Don't think I've ever seen or heard the EU officially advocate that.

1 minute ago, Forethat said:

Don't think I've ever seen or heard the EU officially advocate that.

 

Then why do you post it as if it were fact?

 

14 minutes ago, Forethat said:

Try "reluctance to be part of a federation advocating centralised power and eradication of sovereign nation states".

 

 

 

 

Just now, candide said:

Just curious. Where have you read this 'federation' advocating what you claim it has? I mean by EU institutions such as the EC or the Council?

Don't think I've ever seen or heard the EU, EU institutions such as the EC or the Council, officially advocate that.

2 hours ago, transam said:

Tripe......

Another constructive comment.

In the early 80s I sat on a BSI Technical Committee but obviously you have more informed views on standards,which I am sure you would like to put forward.

2 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

Then why do you post it as if it were fact?

 

 

 

 

 

Because I believe that Brexit is about a reluctance amongst 52% of the population to be part of a federation advocating centralised power and eradication of sovereign nation states. It's a fact that I believe that.

Edited September 22, 20196 yr by Forethat

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

 

Where is the EU advocating that?

 

The EU, not individual politicians.

 

Maybe you're another Brexiteer who's fallen for the internet lies about the Lisbon Treaty?

 

If so, that's rather worrying in someone who claims to be advising the government!

Quote: If so, that's rather worrying in someone who claims to be advising the government

 

Let's be fair, Forethat never said that.

Yes, he claims to be a SME working for the government, but that could be anything: advising Boris, cleaning toilets, making coffee, .......

2 minutes ago, Forethat said:

5 minutes ago, candide said:

Just curious. Where have you read this 'federation' advocating what you claim it has? I mean by EU institutions such as the EC or the Council?

Don't think I've ever seen or heard the EU, EU institutions such as the EC or the Council, officially advocate that.

 Then where did you hear it?

 

1 hour ago, Loiner said:

I would still check that though, because I had the distinct impression from the Merkel/May Surrender Treaty that any dispute had to be taken to their own tame euro-courts.

There would be no dispute until after the UK had left and the ECJ has no jurisdiction over non EU members.

1 minute ago, Forethat said:

Because I believe that Brexit is about a reluctance amongst 52% of the population to be part of a federation advocating centralised power and eradication of sovereign nation states. It's a fact that I believe that.

 

But the EU is not a federation advocating centralised power and eradication of sovereign nation states!

 

You have admitted that no EU body has ever advocated such a thing! 

 

If you truly are advising the government on Brexit, no wonder it's the mess it is!

Just now, 7by7 said:

 

But the EU is not a federation advocating centralised power and eradication of sovereign nation states!

 

You have admitted that no EU body has ever advocated such a thing! 

 

If you truly are advising the government on Brexit, no wonder it's the mess it is!

What makes his contention even more ridiculous is that Cameron won from the EU an agreement to explicitly exempt the UK from the goal of an ever closer union. Not that as a goal it signifies much since the EU doesn't have the means to enforce it. Except, of course, if you believe Germany possesses supernatural powers.

7 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

But the EU is not a federation advocating centralised power and eradication of sovereign nation states!

 

You have admitted that no EU body has ever advocated such a thing! 

 

If you truly are advising the government on Brexit, no wonder it's the mess it is!

I have never claimed that. What I wrote was that I believe that Brexit is about a reluctance to be part of a federation advocating centralised power and eradication of sovereign nation states.

Edited September 22, 20196 yr by Forethat

4 minutes ago, Forethat said:

I have never claimed. What I wrote was that I believe that Brexit is about a reluctance to be part of a federation advocating centralised power and eradication of sovereign nation states.

 

 

7 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

But the EU is not a federation advocating centralised power and eradication of sovereign nation states!

 

You have admitted that no EU body has ever advocated such a thing! 

 

If you truly are advising the government on Brexit, no wonder it's the mess it is!

 

3 minutes ago, Forethat said:

I have never claimed. What I wrote was that I believe that Brexit is about a reluctance to be part of a federation advocating centralised power and eradication of sovereign nation states.

 

So let's get this straight. You wrote that "I believe that Brexit is about a reluctance to be part of a federation advocating centralised power and eradication of sovereign nation states." But you never claimed that the EU is a "federation advocating centralized power and the eradication of sovereign states."

So exactly what Federation is it that Brexit is about?

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 You can never have read posts from the likes of @Loiner, @zorrow424 and others.

 

Hang on; you've 'liked' many of them!

So what, at least they ain't terrorists...

26 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Another constructive comment.

In the early 80s I sat on a BSI Technical Committee but obviously you have more informed views on standards,which I am sure you would like to put forward.

Tripe..

1 hour ago, vogie said:

You know how old a man is just by listening to him and young men don't get good positions, your speculative knowledge is beyond reproach, I bow to your imagination.

 

As I said you are perfectly free to believe what you want and if you choose to believe there will be no delays, no fraud, no problem.

Fortunately it is not a case of what you or I believe, it is up to others to make sure that the problems that may or may not come about are prepared for. Time will tell, it usually does.

Of course there is path to 100% problem avoidance but there are those that prefer to gamble on their view being right.

6 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

So let's get this straight. You wrote that "I believe that Brexit is about a reluctance to be part of a federation advocating centralised power and eradication of sovereign nation states." But you never claimed that the EU is a "federation advocating centralized power and the eradication of sovereign states."

So exactly what Federation is it that Brexit is about?

Again, I have never claimed that Brexit is about EU currently being a federation. What I wrote was that I believe that Brexit is about a reluctance to be part of a federation advocating centralised power and eradication of sovereign nation states. There are plenty of MEPs openly arguing for a joint EU army. There are MEPs openly demanding that nations should give up their sovereignty. Leading MEPs. Group leaders who want nation state powers transferred to the EU institutions. 

 

I believe the language used amongst those leaders have an impact when people decide whether they want to be part of that organisation. For that reason, I believe that Brexit is about a reluctance to be part of a federation advocating centralised power and eradication of sovereign nation states.  

9 minutes ago, Forethat said:

Again, I have never claimed that Brexit is about EU currently being a federation. What I wrote was that I believe that Brexit is about a reluctance to be part of a federation advocating centralised power and eradication of sovereign nation states. There are plenty of MEPs openly arguing for a joint EU army. There are MEPs openly demanding that nations should give up their sovereignty. Leading MEPs. Group leaders who want nation state powers transferred to the EU institutions. 

 

I believe the language used amongst those leaders have an impact when people decide whether they want to be part of that organisation. For that reason, I believe that Brexit is about a reluctance to be part of a federation advocating centralised power and eradication of sovereign nation states.  

You don't seem to get the difference between a minority of MEP's advocating such a thing and a federation advocating such a thing. And even if the federation advocated such a thing, how would they actually be able to accomplish it? Short of a German team of archaeologists acquiring the Ark of the Covenant.  

8 minutes ago, Forethat said:

Again, I have never claimed that Brexit is about EU currently being a federation. What I wrote was that I believe that Brexit is about a reluctance to be part of a federation advocating centralised power and eradication of sovereign nation states. There are plenty of MEPs openly arguing for a joint EU army. There are MEPs openly demanding that nations should give up their sovereignty. Leading MEPs. Group leaders who want nation state powers transferred to the EU institutions. 

 

I believe the language used amongst those leaders have an impact when people decide whether they want to be part of that organisation. For that reason, I believe that Brexit is about a reluctance to be part of a federation advocating centralised power and eradication of sovereign nation states.  

Oh, and before someone sticks up his/her head from underneath a bridge with the argument that "but but but, there's the unanimity rule which makes it easy to stop EU moves like that":

 

There are plenty of leading MEPs working VERY hard to suspend that rule. Voters can do math. 1+1. Well, 52% of them can. 

2 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

You don't seem to get the difference between a minority of MEP's advocating such a thing and a federation advocating such a thing. And even if the federation advocated such a thing, how would they actually be able to accomplish it? Short of a German team of archaeologists acquiring the Ark of the Covenant.  

I am NOT saying it IS a Federation or that it WILL become Federation.

 

What I'm saying is that I believe that Brexit is about a reluctance to be part of a federation advocating centralised power and eradication of sovereign nation states.

 

Voters. That is what this is about. What THEY think and why THEY react the way they do.

 

For your information; I also believe Remainers believe that Brexit is about being part of borderless Nirvana with an economic and trading position that can challenge the emerging superpowers like China. Neither do I think they currently are nor that they will ever become that Nirvana. But that is what I believe is the reason Remainers vote the way they do. 

 

Rhetorical analysis, isn't really your thing, is it?

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Forethat said:

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

But the EU is not a federation advocating centralised power and eradication of sovereign nation states!

 

You have admitted that no EU body has ever advocated such a thing! 

 

If you truly are advising the government on Brexit, no wonder it's the mess it is!

I have never claimed that. What I wrote was that I believe that Brexit is about a reluctance to be part of a federation advocating centralised power and eradication of sovereign nation states.

 

So you believe the referendum result was based upon a lie!

 

All the more reason for holding a final, legally binding one!

 

1 hour ago, transam said:

So what, at least they ain't terrorists...

 Are you seriously claiming that one or more members here are?

1 hour ago, Forethat said:

Again, I have never claimed that Brexit is about EU currently being a federation. What I wrote was that I believe that Brexit is about a reluctance to be part of a federation advocating centralised power and eradication of sovereign nation states. There are plenty of MEPs openly arguing for a joint EU army. There are MEPs openly demanding that nations should give up their sovereignty. Leading MEPs. Group leaders who want nation state powers transferred to the EU institutions. 

 Which MEPs? Name them.

 

1 hour ago, Forethat said:

I believe the language used amongst those leaders have an impact when people decide whether they want to be part of that organisation. For that reason, I believe that Brexit is about a reluctance to be part of a federation advocating centralised power and eradication of sovereign nation states. 

Which leaders? Name them.

57 minutes ago, Forethat said:

Oh, and before someone sticks up his/her head from underneath a bridge with the argument that "but but but, there's the unanimity rule which makes it easy to stop EU moves like that":

 

There are plenty of leading MEPs working VERY hard to suspend that rule. Voters can do math. 1+1. Well, 52% of them can. 

 Which MEPs? Name them.

 

But even if there are "plenty of MEPs working VERY hard to suspend that rule" such suspension could only happen if it were agreed unanimously!

 

I asked you earlier if you had fallen for the internet lies circulating about the Lisbon Treaty. The more you post, the more it seems that you have!

2 hours ago, oldhippy said:

QUOTE: Don’t confuse Brexiteers with the likes of Britain First.

 

Easy mistake to make, when reading TV forum threads obout brexit.

 

 

Some people often see what they want to see.

 

IMO perhaps only 10% of the TVF Brexiteers lean far enough to the right to be clearly associated with BF.

 

 

 

Whereas 90% of the remainers appear whiney, quislings overloaded with Schadenfreude. 

 

 

As said, people often see what they want to see.

Just now, 7by7 said:

 

So you believe the referendum result was based upon a lie!

 

All the more reason for holding a final, legally binding one!

 

No, I have never believed anything resembling that. What I believe - and wrote - is that Brexit is about a reluctance to be part of a federation advocating centralised power and eradication of sovereign nation states. That's not a lie, a lot of people share that view, I can assure you. And as I said, a lot of leading MEPs are proponents of exactly that direction. The President of the European Commission wants to remove the principle of unanimity (that probably raised a few red flags...).

 

People hear and see those things - they are not lies, they exist and are available to anyone who is interested. You seriously need to stop thinking that anyone who doesn't agree with you is lying. Seriously.

 

 

 

27 minutes ago, Forethat said:

40 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

So you believe the referendum result was based upon a lie!

 

All the more reason for holding a final, legally binding one!

 

No, I have never believed anything resembling that. What I believe - and wrote - is that Brexit is about a reluctance to be part of a federation advocating centralised power and eradication of sovereign nation states.

 But when challenged on that, you admitted that

 

2 hours ago, Forethat said:

Don't think I've ever seen or heard the EU officially advocate that.

You went on

2 hours ago, Forethat said:

Don't think I've ever seen or heard the EU, EU institutions such as the EC or the Council, officially advocate that.

 So you have admitted that this imagined federation of centralised power and the eradication of sovereign nation states is not an official aim of the EU at all!

 

In other words, according to your belief that people voted to leave because of this imagined aim; Brexit and the referendum result are both based on something which is untrue; a lie!

 

27 minutes ago, Forethat said:

That's not a lie, a lot of people share that view, I can assure you

You may believe that a lot of people share your view; but as you have admitted yourself; it's not official EU policy! The view is false, so any one who voted leave because of that view was misled; lied to even.

 

27 minutes ago, Forethat said:

And as I said, a lot of leading MEPs are proponents of exactly that direction.

Name them.

 

27 minutes ago, Forethat said:

The President of the European Commission wants to remove the principle of unanimity (that probably raised a few red flags...).

 

Even if true, it doesn't matter what he wants. Such a measure could not happen with just the consent of the Commission,  the majority of MEPs, or even the council. It would require the unanimous consent of all member governments.

 

You know very little about the subject for someone who claims to be a Subject Matter Expert!!

 

But maybe when you called your self a SME you really did mean a member of a Spontaneous Musical Ensemble?

 

27 minutes ago, Forethat said:

People hear and see those things - they are not lies, they exist and are available to anyone who is interested. You seriously need to stop thinking that anyone who doesn't agree with you is lying. Seriously.

I do not believe that people who disagree with me are lying; but when someone posts lies, I will not hesitate to say so.

 

I repeat: you have admitted that this imagined federation of centralised power and the eradication of sovereign nation states is not an official aim of the EU at all!

 

In other words, according to your belief that people voted to leave because of this imagined aim; Brexit and the referendum result are both based on something which is untrue; a lie!

 

1 hour ago, Forethat said:

I am NOT saying it IS a Federation or that it WILL become Federation.

 

What I'm saying is that I believe that Brexit is about a reluctance to be part of a federation advocating centralised power and eradication of sovereign nation states.

 

Voters. That is what this is about. What THEY think and why THEY react the way they do.

 

For your information; I also believe Remainers believe that Brexit is about being part of borderless Nirvana with an economic and trading position that can challenge the emerging superpowers like China. Neither do I think they currently are nor that they will ever become that Nirvana. But that is what I believe is the reason Remainers vote the way they do. 

 

Rhetorical analysis, isn't really your thing, is it?

 

 

 

As you yourself stated only some MEP members are in favor of that unity and their numbers are nowhere near a majority. And your nonsense about Remainers believing in a Nirvana, is, as usual, unaccompanied by any evidence.

And apparently you think claiming your posts are rhetorical somehow immunizes them from being challenged on grounds of illogic and falsity. It's a claim that is as self-serving as it is clueless.

4 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

As you yourself stated only some MEP members are in favor of that unity and their numbers are nowhere near a majority. And your nonsense about Remainers believing in a Nirvana, is, as usual, unaccompanied by any evidence.

And apparently you think claiming your posts are rhetorical somehow immunizes them from being challenged on grounds of illogic and falsity. It's a claim that is as self-serving as it is clueless.

It's there. Right there. I posted it. They are my beliefs. There's the evidence.

6 minutes ago, Forethat said:

It's there. Right there. I posted it. They are my beliefs. There's the evidence.

And if you said you believed that the moon was made of green cheese, that too would be evidence of one of your beliefs. But it would tell us nothing real about what the moon is actually made of.