'tribune' Reporter's Fallacy: Thai Anti-foreigner Sentiment

[The Skipper]

Take a walk between Soi Cowboy and Soi Nana. It's a freak show.

The disrespectfull behavior of some of the expats/tourists is off the charts.

No wonder they hate us. I'm beginning to feel the same way.

Maybe time for the Expat comunity to do somthing about the Hooligans?

[0Mix1up]

Its all a matter of degree, but I would not condemn someone without persuasive evidence.

Well its relatively easy to look at the problems and work your way back to see who the main culprits are, without persuasive evidence its still clear.

Probably not the people pushing food carts, running small shops,etc.etc.etc.

[jeebusjones]

I don't personally know anyone in the Thai government. I know the names of about half a dozen from news items. I know a couple of persons who might be described as Thai upper class. Unlike Pumpuiman, I am not in a position to make sweeping judgments about the characters and ethics of persons I do not know and those that I do know do not match his description.

As an old professor of mine used to say:

"Those who crave power cannot be trusted with it."

All politicians are corrupt. If they weren't, they wouldn't have become politicians in the first place.

[thaigene2]

When a Thai national goes to the embassy to apply for a visa he/she must demonstrate adequate funds in a bank account that will cover the length of their stay. If this requirement is met then any of them can have a visa and go. And if they have a lot of money they can arrange to buy a nice piece of property in Malibu with no limit on acreage. They can even arrange financing from a Thai bank stateside. As far as people not being allowed in, it's because they're poor. The US has plenty of poor people that can't afford a plane ticket or to take two weeks off from work. Some Americans are turned back at Heathrow if they can't show enough funds to cover their stay.

So, what's your point? The fact that 80% of Thailand is too poor to cover their own behinds isn't the US's problem--it's Thailand's. They should work on educating their people better and motivating them to reach common goals that are important to them and their culture, instead of leaving 80% of their population high and dry. These loving, all-caring governments that pop in and out of existence in this country have all failed the impoverished. They use their pee-nong system to connive and strip them of fair profits and when they don't like it enough to say something they take a big military boot in the face or get shot. Light-skinned, wealthy Thais HATE little brown people and think they deserve to be on their knees pouring lemonade or sweeping the floor.

Exactly spot on Botttlerocket.

Thanong - You like so many other educated and priviledged Thais I know conventiently skirt around the issue of how your families got rich enough for them to educate YOU to the level you have, and for YOU to buy a ticket to the US or for YOU to buy a house in Thailand when 90% of Thais can barely feed their families. You're right this is YOUR country so why don't YOU start to LOOK AFTER THE PEOPLE here? I know why. It's becuase you don;t really want things to change do you? What Thailind needs is a few more Giles Ungkaporns and Pasuk Pongpaichits to write in THAI about real issues and have THAIS read this and understand what's really going on. Meantime, you should stop ranting at the foreigners (which of course you mean Westeners since the Japanese by far and away outstrip Western business investment here).

Your retort is reasoned in many places however, and I agree the IHT article is a bit weak in places (stereotypes middle aged 'foreign' - again white I'm sure they mean - men with thai women as sex tourists -- if one of those women said that to my Thai wife she get a black eye - from her not me).

But let's get some perspective and stop pretending that this is someone else's doing - Thailand needs to clean up its own mess and stop blaming others for it. (dirty migrants, sleezy farangs, unfair western big companies hurting poor little thais). Grow up.

[thaigene2]

Take a walk between Soi Cowboy and Soi Nana. It's a freak show.

The disrespectfull behavior of some of the expats/tourists is off the charts.

No wonder they hate us. I'm beginning to feel the same way.

Maybe time for the Expat comunity to do somthing about the Hooligans?

OK Skipper you handle the Hooligan campaign, and I'm going to start a "Mia Farang" campaign - but we'll let thai wives of japanese, taiwanese, korean etc join too.

We'll lead a Wok Bangking campaign to Sanam Luang. We'll bring in famous Thai-Farang TV stars from Kanatana and TV3...They can explain the benefits of having a diverse population - just like the Chinese-Thais have done so successfully. These beauties can explain, in flawless polite Thai, how their farang daddies nurtured them and encouraged them in independent thought - and how that gave them the confidence to rise to their positions in society - even through their mum came from Surat Thani or Ubon. They'll say to Thais that foreign families who integrate into Thai society are not a threat to Thailand but actually a benefit. They'll say that if Thailand accepted the Chinese - why not others?

I'd love to do this - but I reckon I'd get blacklisted.. never try to go up against the establishment...they like their garish over-indulgent self-important little world just the way it is. Farangs are a threat to that.

[pumpuiman]

There is not one honest person in Thai government, or so called upper class.

How do you know? Are you personally acquainted with ALL of them?

More diplomatically put:

There could be an honest person in the Thai-government, but do you know any?

I don't personally know anyone in the Thai government. I know the names of about half a dozen from news items. I know a couple of persons who might be described as Thai upper class. Unlike Pumpuiman, I am not in a position to make sweeping judgments about the characters and ethics of persons I do not know and those that I do know do not match his description. I suspect that there is not a completely honest adult in the world and, if I were to look for one, I would not start with politicians of any race. Its all a matter of degree, but I would not condemn someone without persuasive evidence. Making unfounded statements which are unsupported by evidence is a form of dishonesty. So, Pompuiman, please persuade me as to why I should accept your statement as an honest observation.

If its just a generalisation about politicians then what purpose does the remark serve other than to further inflame anti-Thai or anti-farang sentiment? Is that your objective?

It is the nature of the game in Thailand. If you don't pay off the right people you can't get in to office.

Policemen driving mercedes?

Military men with 100 million baht in the bank?

It's so obvious it's pitiful.

I can make sweeping generalizations, because it's a fact accepted by an entire nation as business as usual.

Cash is king.....end of story.

Keep dreaming....theres always tommorow.

[samran]

There is not one honest person in Thai government, or so called upper class.

How do you know? Are you personally acquainted with ALL of them?

More diplomatically put:

There could be an honest person in the Thai-government, but do you know any?

Actually, I do know people and I used to work for one of them.

I'd say in all honestly, there is about a 50-50 split between the genuine honest ones, and the not so honest (or at least those in situations where they are not empowered to do much to stop it) So make it 50% clean, 40% compromised but redeemable, 10% the rotten apples.. This is in a normal elected government.

In this current government, I'd say the split was 80-20, in favour of honest ones. The dishonest ones can't help themselves, and they (like flies to sh!t) tend to congreate around the departments (not specifically whole ministries) which where the can make a buck, being interior, transport, any public works portfoilios, customs, and maybe one or two others. Not all departments are ripe for plundering. That leaves alot of other portfolio's where people really just try and make a go of things. Revenue department is one (suprisingly) where I don't think anyone who has paid a cent of taxes in Thailand, would really argue that in terms of efficiency, that they haven't come leaps and bounds in the past few years.

The biggest problem in my view with the Thai government is not necessarily the dishonesty, it is 1) the lack of effective strategic planning that exists in the civil service, 2) political pressure and in many cases, 3) the lack of capacity (human and financial) to make things work and stick.

Lets take the first one. Strategic planning in the Thai civil service, while it happens, tends to fizzle out like in all organisations where there aren't strong team leaders and champions for the cause to implement things. This is weakened by the fact that once someone gets to the top, they might at best only have 3-4 years to change things, before they are forced to retire at 60. This is also muddled by the Thai tendency to defer to their political masters whims (point 2). So you'll very often see the case where a ministry may have been working on something for a year, planning, and about to set it in motion, when an order comes down from high (not well communicated) that 'THIS' needs to be done (whatever THIS is...). People run around like headless chickens, immediately focusing on the task at hand (usually badly). Why badly? Cause, of point 3) the lack of capacity to do so.

One of the problems with Thaksin was, that he took good department like the Rev. Dept, and applied the screws so that he could get away with (allegedly) not paying tax on his family shares sales.

I had a chat once with someone working on a departments budget one. I asked him, quite skepically, why there wasn't money. This bloke, a MIT graduate, turned around and quite calmly and honestly said that the money doesn't really exist to do many, many things and what resources there are, are often streched simply trying to keep what they already have running. So it is fine balancing act....to prevent everything falling apart while taking time to invest in the instutinonal capacity to do things that we in the west take for granted.

This goverment suffers from the inbuilt problem that you have some very smart, honest and experienced people in charge, but the teams they delegate to are poorly equipped, and to be honest, time is short. The people put in charge know how to work the civil service well and have the brains, if the were politically acceptable to come back as elected politicians, to make Thailand a much better place over the long term. But they wont.

But their current manadate is clear, root out all vestiges of Thaksin first and foremost. The lack of 'forward vision' in the civil service leads to the situiations where a jack hammer is used to crack open a nut (eg. Tamaseks ownership of AIS was the problem.....the response was lets just tighten the FBA without due thought as to the consequences elsewhere). On top of this, the usual ego's (thai politics is extremely faction ridden), and you are never going to get things happening in the way they probably intended to.

[rken]

I find no difference in the way that I'm treated by the Thai people in general. Most are friendly and try to be helpful.

I have more issues with the poster on this web site. Most I find to be self rightous !!!!!. I first came to Thailand it was for dental work. I fell in love with the place. the peole were friendly, the weather was good and living was inexpensive.

I wanted to move here buy land etc.

I was told that in order to buy land I had to form a company. Which I did. No one mentioned the fact that it was bending the law. It was just the way it had to be done in thailand. Now two years later some of you self rightous !!!!! on this sight are faulting people who purchased this way as you are with the border run crowd. I find many of you offensive and self rightous because you think your better. You bitch about Thailand, do us all a favor and go back where you came from. Why are you here to make Thailand just like the place you left, so you can be unhappy here too.

The Thai government new for years about the border runs and the purchasing of land through a Thai company and did nothing to prevent or stop either practice. So get off your high horses please. The recent publishing about weird Phalangs and who is acceptable is appauling. So who is it that gets to decide who weird and who's not. Me thinks I would rather hang out with some of the undesirables you speak of than a self rightous hypocrite. Thanks for the many amusing hours.

Aloha

[ourmanflint]

You bitch about Thailand, do us all a favor and go back where you came from. Why are you here to make Thailand just like the place you left, so you can be unhappy here too.

Aloha

same old nonsense from people like yoursef... you think others are pompous whereas it seems you are the one who is behaving like an arrogant fool!!

People who complain about Thailand are generally involved in life here and they complain not because they have to, but because they genuinely want to see things change. Maybe you should stop living in cuckooland and take a look at what is happening all around you.

Oh, but then you didn't even have the nowse to find out if buying land was on the up and up. You just go along with the flow like a turd going out to sea.

[thaigene2]

Strategic planning in the Thai civil service, while it happens, tends to fizzle out like in all organisations where there aren't strong team leaders and champions for the cause to implement things. This is weakened by the fact that once someone gets to the top, they might at best only have 3-4 years to change things, before they are forced to retire at 60. This is also muddled by the Thai tendency to defer to their political masters whims (point 2).

I usually find many of your posts informative Samran - but this one seems like a real spin job - an apologist for the civil servants who - to many of us are quite laughably one of the main problems here. The ones whop are trying to get even with Thaksin who took away their old chinese-style Thai bureaucractic 'priviledges'.

Come on, I mean really, yes many of thse people with long names went to MIT and Harvard, etc.. well now, I wonder how their dad who was a doctor/surgeon/lawyer whatever on a PROFESSIONAL salary of 75,000 baht per month managed to send their kid not to just any old US university - but to the most expensive bloody universities in America?

Sure pal...we're all with you ya..(sic) 'those smart people were truly disgusted with their higher-ups binding their hands hog-tie style.' They wanted to see real change for the poor people of Thailand -sure they did Samran -sure they did...They couldn't give a rat's ass..

Give me a break pal.

[samran]

I didn't think many people would agree. But, hey, I'm not here to be popular. It is a personal opinion based on real experience.

A couple of rebuttals:

I usually find many of your posts informative Samran - but this one seems like a real spin job - an apologist for the civil servants who - to many of us are quite laughably one of the main problems here. The ones whop are trying to get even with Thaksin who took away their old chinese-style Thai bureaucractic 'priviledges'.

Some, no doubt. Each side of the Thai political spectrum historically always knew that there time would come again to get their nose in the trough. Thaksin though took things, policy wise, to a new level and of course the 'other side' worried when they might get a crack at the ole' pork barrel. That is one element,.

While with any change in government, there is always elements of 'payback' and getting even, there are many people working for the current junta who also worked under Thaksin, and were getting their 'burecratic privileges' thank you very much while he was there. For these people, they either reached their retirement age, or some like the current energy minister, who said "screw it, you ain't even going to see common sense out of Thaksin, so I'm going to make lots of money working in the private sector'"…which he did. He was tapped on the shoulder like so many others to try and put some things right which Thaskin chose not to do, not because it wasn't good policy, but because it didn't benefit Thaksin..

They are the ones, not in the headlines, running around organizing the funding for the MRTA underground extensions, making the wheels don't fall off any of the day to day stuff. Many of them gave up private sector jobs to come back too.

If I was you, I'd take a look at the average tenure of a senior civil servant in any position of power – at the deputy permanent secretary level and up. It isn't usually more than a few years, hardly enough time to do anything long term. Compare this to senior civil servants in the UK, US or Australia. They usually have enough time to set things in motion and see them through. Cause there is such an emphasis on age here, and doing your time, really high achievers don't get to the top untill there are in their late 50's...and 60 is when you are forced to retire.

Come on, I mean really, yes many of thse people with long names went to MIT and Harvard, etc.. well now, I wonder how their dad who was a doctor/surgeon/lawyer whatever on a PROFESSIONAL salary of 75,000 baht per month managed to send their kid not to just any old US university - but to the most expensive bloody universities in America?

Give me a break pal.

If you chose to investigate it, Thailand has an extensive and well funded civil service scholarship scheme. While certain ministries are filled with the useless children of the aristocracy (no doubt about that), for every one of those, you'll get perhaps 5 who went on scholarship to the UK, Australia, Japan or the US.

I spent enough time polishing the university applications from the children of the not so well off to know that a lot do get through. One guy I did an application for was off to LSE. He grew up in a Thai style house in the sticks with chickens running around. Most go for their masters, some go for the PhD. The deal is that for every year away you study, you are obligated to work for 2 years as a civil servant.

The rich kids have the education paid for by the parents, so as not to obligate them to the government.

Do they give a toss? Yes, no and some try. The system ain't an easy one to work under.

[Alf Witt]

Policemen driving mercedes?

All of them? I haven't noticed.

Military men with 100 million baht in the bank?

All of them? How do you find this information?

I can make sweeping generalizations, because it's a fact.

OK, lets have the full detail quoting sources. Your allegation was about ALL politicians and ALL upper class.

[lannarebirth]

Hey samran,

Do you know if Thailand has any whistleblower incentive programs or whistleblower protection laws?

[samran]

Hey samran,

Do you know if Thailand has any whistleblower incentive programs or whistleblower protection laws?

not unless they are the same ones which you see in the papers (set up to make compaints about the former regeime).

IMHO, these things don't work too well here. First is enforcement and the burden of evidence is huge. No FOI here I don't thing. There is very little real protection as well.

Cultrually, for matters like this, people are usually ordered to do something by a superior...so they get caught up in things but they don't feel comfortable telling their superior to take a running jump.

Thirdly, the people you are talking about, civil servants, have 30 - 40 odd years to get their payback in. They don't make many issues a big deal. For them, the saying 'revenge is a dish best served cold' is something that applies and that they are good at.

[Alf Witt]

Actually, I do know people and I used to work for one of them.

I'd say in all honestly, there is about a 50-50 split between the genuine honest ones, and the not so honest (or at least those in situations where they are not empowered to do much to stop it) So make it 50% clean, 40% compromised but redeemable, 10% the rotten apples.. This is in a normal elected government.

Thanks, Samran for some informed analysis.

Of course, Thailand has problems with corruption etc. but gratuitous "off the wall" comments with no factual basis (like that of Pumpuiman) I find disturbing as they serve only to inflame negative attitudes all round and add to anti-Thai and anti-farang sentiment.

Maybe Pumpuiman will counter your analysis in some detail from his widespread personal knowledge of all Thai politicians and all upper class Thais. What really surprises me is how he managed to get so well acquained with those persons to be able to acquire the "facts", given his perception of them. He must have kept very quiet about what he was really thinking.

[Alf Witt]

Hey samran,

Do you know if Thailand has any whistleblower incentive programs or whistleblower protection laws?

Pumpuiman?

[samran]

Actually, I do know people and I used to work for one of them.

I'd say in all honestly, there is about a 50-50 split between the genuine honest ones, and the not so honest (or at least those in situations where they are not empowered to do much to stop it) So make it 50% clean, 40% compromised but redeemable, 10% the rotten apples.. This is in a normal elected government.

Thanks, Samran for some informed analysis.

Of course, Thailand has problems with corruption etc. but gratuitous "off the wall" comments with no factual basis (like that of Pumpuiman) I find disturbing as they serve only to inflame negative attitudes all round and add to anti-Thai and anti-farang sentiment.

Maybe Pumpuiman will counter your analysis in some detail from his widespread personal knowledge of all Thai politicians and all upper class Thais. What really surprises me is how he managed to get so well acquained with those persons to be able to acquire the "facts", given his perception of them. He must have kept very quiet about what he was really thinking.

Ah, let people hang themselves!

As for upper class Thai's. There is a mixed bag, but I like them mostly, especially the 'old money'types who have been around the world once or twice. Usually quirky and interesting and with westerners, you they don't piss about and can get straight to the point.

[Alf Witt]

I find no difference in the way that I'm treated by the Thai people in general. Most are friendly and try to be helpful.

I have more issues with the poster on this web site. Most I find to be self rightous !!!!!. I first came to Thailand it was for dental work. I fell in love with the place. the peole were friendly, the weather was good and living was inexpensive.

I wanted to move here buy land etc.

I was told that in order to buy land I had to form a company. Which I did. No one mentioned the fact that it was bending the law. It was just the way it had to be done in thailand. Now two years later some of you self rightous !!!!! on this sight are faulting people who purchased this way as you are with the border run crowd. I find many of you offensive and self rightous because you think your better. You bitch about Thailand, do us all a favor and go back where you came from. Why are you here to make Thailand just like the place you left, so you can be unhappy here too.

The Thai government new for years about the border runs and the purchasing of land through a Thai company and did nothing to prevent or stop either practice. So get off your high horses please. The recent publishing about weird Phalangs and who is acceptable is appauling. So who is it that gets to decide who weird and who's not. Me thinks I would rather hang out with some of the undesirables you speak of than a self rightous hypocrite. Thanks for the many amusing hours.

Aloha

I don't know what you said rken to merit the foul-mouthed abuse from ourmanflint.

By self-rightous you are probably referring to the cynically wise who think they know everything there is to know about Thailand from "wisdom" acquired on a bar stool.

Take comfort in the fact that the popular wisdom about company land-ownership is not necessarily accurate in law. Wait and see. Those who castigate you about buying property probably don't have the financial resources to do so anyway so their knowledge is "academic" in the loosest meaning of that word.

[steveromagnino]

We'll lead a Wok Bangking campaign to Sanam Luang. We'll bring in famous Thai-Farang TV stars from Kanatana and TV3...They can explain the benefits of having a diverse population - just like the Chinese-Thais have done so successfully. These beauties can explain, in flawless polite Thai, how their farang daddies nurtured them and encouraged them in independent thought - and how that gave them the confidence to rise to their positions in society - even through their mum came from Surat Thani or Ubon. They'll say to Thais that foreign families who integrate into Thai society are not a threat to Thailand but actually a benefit. They'll say that if Thailand accepted the Chinese - why not others?

I'd love to do this - but I reckon I'd get blacklisted.. never try to go up against the establishment...they like their garish over-indulgent self-important little world just the way it is. Farangs are a threat to that.

THe only problem is that many of the Thai-farang stars are poorly educated, behave poorly and cannot often speak proper legitimate Thai beyond the requirements of a soap opera script.

Therefore they cannot show the benefits of a diverse population, as the only thing many bring to the party are nice unique looks and a willingness to get naked/sleep around.

I worked in the industry long enough to know what my selling points were, and they didn't extend far beyond these two! Incidentally, the majority of look krueng who have risen to the upper echelons of the entertainment industry don't have a poor parent from Isaan either.

When the farang parent speaks Thai almost properly (like the Chinese Thais); owns land, has a business; becomes a citizen and actually appears to integrate with Thailand, then I think you'll find that they get accepted and welcomed as much or more than the Chinese Thais - who incidentally went through a fair bit of discrimination a few years back just for being 'foreign'.

Your final sentences explain pretty clearly why this isn't going to happen, at least for you :-)

[rken]

You bitch about Thailand, do us all a favor and go back where you came from. Why are you here to make Thailand just like the place you left, so you can be unhappy here too.

Aloha

same old nonsense from people like yoursef... you think others are pompous whereas it seems you are the one who is behaving like an arrogant fool!!

People who complain about Thailand are generally involved in life here and they complain not because they have to, but because they genuinely want to see things change. Maybe you should stop living in cuckooland and take a look at what is happening all around you.

Oh, but then you didn't even have the nowse to find out if buying land was on the up and up. You just go along with the flow like a turd going out to sea.

I rest my case. You have made it perfectly clear to all I think. As for being involved. I am married to a Thai, have two buisnesses and have bought property. How much more involved should I get. Happy sailing aloha

[onzestan]

Unfortunately, I must say that it is far more convenient for foreigners to visit Thailand and do business here than it is for Thais to travel abroad and do business in other countries. It is not easy for the average Thai citizen to get a visa to the United States, Europe or Japan, but we can't complain because nobody is listening to us. Our voice is not loud enough.

Well, we all know that this is idea is uninformed. My Thai wife can hop on a plane to the US, and purchase any house or piece of land that she feels like, as long as she has the cash to do it.

unfortunately my wife that I married more than 17 years ago still has to apply for a visa for Belgium, and I know that all the european countries that signed the Schengen treaty have the same rules.

Furthermore she can stay only a maximum of 6 months a year divided over 2 three-month periods.

It is fairly easy to get the visa and its free since I'm a belgian citizen.

cheers

onzestan