1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Yes. He is trapped, cornered and guilty, and he knows it. 

The old tricks that have always worked for him are no longer working. 
He senses that they will never work again.

He doesn't have any new tricks.

Cooperate with congress, he gets impeached.

Don't cooperate with congress, he gets impeached for not cooperating. 

The "trump" fans are in denial. They're trying to convince themselves and others than nothing has changed, that it's all a nothing burger.  How long can that hold up?

Ever heard of orange toast?

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/09/30/trump-is-cornered-his-civil-war-threat-stinks-panic/

 

 

And I foresee a cohort of rats fleeing the sinking ship. Trump has no friend be a use he chose people like him. Ready to stab him in the back to save themselves.

I would not be surprised than even Rudi could betray him. " Tu quoque mi Giuliani!"  Ah!Ah!

12 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

Lets put this 'quid pro quo' nonsense to bed straight away with a very simple scenario.

A guy comes up to you in the street and sticks a gun in your face and yells 'give me your money!' Now are you uncertain about what is happening because he didn't say 'Give me your money, this is a robbery?' Of course not. You know explicitly what is happening because your brain is wired for nuances. Therefore when the POTUS asks for 'a favour' with the exact words 'There's a lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it... It sounds horrible to me.' we are left under no illusion what is being asked for and that it is an attempt to get dirt on a political opponent on the back of a huge financial inducement.

It is a crime in the US to ask a foreign entity to assist in any capacity in a US election.

I'm not sure how much clearer it can get.  

The video of Biden bragging exists for all to see !  I think Biden will withdraw from the Presidential race after all thetruth emerges aboutb this episode 

21 hours ago, Kelsall said:

Yet another nothing-burger.

 

 

 

 

The president is clearly rattled - just look at his Twiiter feed from the last 24 hours - he's trapped.

 

Time to negotiate immunity for himself, and his family ("Save Eric"), and crawl away to build Trump Montenegro.

 

 

2 hours ago, john ianson said:

The video of Biden bragging exists for all to see !  I think Biden will withdraw from the Presidential race after all thetruth emerges aboutb this episode 

This has been gone over many, many times in previous threads. Please go back to see explanations centered around the fact Biden was doing what was US policy at the time and had therefore nothing to hide.  

4 hours ago, john ianson said:

The video of Biden bragging exists for all to see !  I think Biden will withdraw from the Presidential race after all thetruth emerges aboutb this episode 

First of all, not equivalent if you know the actual background about that.

Second of all, WHO CARES!?!

A strong majority of democrats don't want to nominate Biden anyway!

At this point he is a private citizen hoping to be president along with scads of other private citizens hoping to be president (mostly democrats). 

There will be only one democrat running and only one republican.

So the fate that probably awaits Biden  (not getting nominated) -- join the crowd.

The loyal "trump" fans are hanging on to a weak deflection about Biden that they think will save their hero. Tough luck. It will not. 

14 hours ago, Monomial said:

 

"A guy comes up to you in the street and sticks a gun in your face and yells 'give me your money!' "

 

If only it were that simple, it would be obvious. But the problem with the transcript vis-a-vis your analogy, (and yes I have read the transcript as well as the legal analysis on both sides), is that there was no "gun" presented. You have to infer that the robber may have had a gun or a weapon, but simply chose not to display it at that time. So if someone just comes up to you on the street and says "Give me your money" with no threatening weapon displayed, is that a robbery or simply a request? One is legal, the other is not.   You have to make the legal argument that it was obvious a robbery was intended, even though a weapon was neither explicitly shown nor stated.  That is a very tough legal argument for something as serious as a presedential impeachment. Not impossible of course, but really, really difficult.

 

"it is an attempt to get dirt on a political opponent on the back of a huge financial inducement"

 

This is not clear from the transcript. It is certainly the opinion of those who are pushing for impeachment, but this is never stated in the transcript. You are assigning your opinion of his motive to the words and his supporters will not agree with you. It doesn't make them stupid and you brilliant. It does mean that people have different values and interpret the data to fit their personal bias.

 

Objectively this is anything but clear.  It's quite muddy in fact, and I think there is essentially no chance (right now) it will result in a conviction. The vote will most likely fall straight down party lines if this is all there is.  Let's wait and see what other evidence surfaces during the hearings, maybe something will come out that will shed more light on this and push the needle clearly to one side, but based on what has been shown so far there is absolutely nothing concrete.

 

Those that know me know I do not support Trump. He is bad for America. He is a psycopath and a demagogue. But the current way people just snarl and denigrate those with opposing views in the USA is anything but helpful. Trump is a symptom of a very deep problem that is a long time in the making.  This impeachment hearing is unlikely to be anything other than political theater. Enjoy it like you would enjoy any comedy at the cinema.

 

I appreciate your well thought out argument, but have to disagree with the 'there is absolutely nothing concrete' part. I'm not sure just how much concrete you can get; the President of the United States in a call to a foreign leader starts off by letting that leader know just how much he should be thankful to the US with 'I will say that we do a lot for Ukraine. We spend a lot of effort and a lot of time. Much more than the European countries are doing and they should be helping you more than they are. Germany does almost nothing for you. All they do is talk and I think it's something that you should really ask them about'.

He is establishing obligation.

This obligation is confirmed by President Zelenskyy with a 'Yes you are absolutely right. Not only 100%, but actually 1000%....' 

Next comes the pitch with Trump saying "I would like you to do us a favor...... He then goes on talking about 'Crowdstrike' and the server he thinks Ukraine has. 

And in classic Columbo 'just one more thing' style he then says 'The other thing, There's a lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it... It sounds horrible to me.'

It's reckoned there are 7 things Trump is guilty of in this exchange and with his actions thereafter:-

1. BRIBERY - Where hundreds of millions of aid is offered for help in smearing Biden - not my favorite as it's not clear there is indeed a quid pro quo and it's too easy to argue otherwise.

2. HONEST SERVICES FRAUD - Trump allows the aid to go through; Ukraine does him a favour - political representatives are not allowed to do this. A valid point.

3. EXTORTION - Can't see this myself as I don't see President Zelenskyy being threatened. 

4. WITNESS INTIMIDATION - By calling the whistleblower   'almost a spy,” recently and inferring capital punishment for treason, this could be seen as witness intimidation.  

5. OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE - By moving records of the call into a separate system for protecting highly classified documents, obstruction of justice charges could be brought.  

6. CONSPIRACY - Reaching an agreement with others to commit any of these other crimes would set up the possibility of a conspiracy charge.

But for me the main charge of Campaign Finance Violation wherein it’s a crime for any American (and I don't think I have to say this includes the POTUS) to ask a foreigner for help winning a U.S. election is the most obvious. Whilst talking of 'favors' he explicitly asks for President Zelenskyy to look into Bidens actions in an attempt to get information that will smear Biden. Not sure how clear you can get with that one.

I agree with your point that 'The vote will most likely fall straight down party lines' as it's obvious this will pass Congress only to stall at the Senate but what else are Democrats supposed to do? There have been many, many, many incidents of un-President like behavior verging on criminal from this man so does he get away with it again? I for one am glad the Democrats have drawn a line in the sand and although it may turn out to be 'political theater', it's something that needs to be done. And with any luck (not holding my breath) we will see the end of the worst President in modern history.

 

 

On 9/30/2019 at 8:39 AM, OneMoreFarang said:

At least 90% should support the impeachment of that serial liar. There is so much evidence out there that he did lots of illegal things that it's amazing anybody is still supporting him.

Why do Americans support such a moron?

I understand that they didn't want Hillary and I understand that Pence is not exactly a good replacement.

But enough it enough! Get rid of that guy before it gets even worse.

 

Welcome to the new world of Western politics! 

 

It's who you dislike the most now who gets the vote 555!. Trump over crooked despised by many Hilary. Boris over commie terrorist loving racist loony left Corbyn.

 

Now, under normal circumstances, Trump and Boris wouldn't get a look-in as they are completely transparent - serial liars, out for themselves, entitled and above the law, in their opinion.

 

Polarization spreads to new distances.

 

Even the EU seemingly can't even follow its own selection rules and the 2 countries actually running it appoint 4 very dubious new leaders to their executive.

 

The lunatics really are taking over the asylums.

8 hours ago, john ianson said:

The video of Biden bragging exists for all to see !  I think Biden will withdraw from the Presidential race after all thetruth emerges aboutb this episode 

So Warren v Pence in 2020 , suits me.

On 9/30/2019 at 5:36 PM, Jingthing said:

Anyone saying they know who will win the next election even who will be running has ZERO credibility. You don't know. NOBODY knows. Things have changed radically in the last week and some people are so arrogant to suggest they know what will happen in November 2020. RIDICULOUS.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Rubbish.

Trump will be running and win.

And many TV posters predicted years ago that Prayuth would manipulate the election and end up PM.

It's just that others are unable to look at all the variables and facts to assess an obvious result.

Interesting article that points out for Trump to be thrown out of office, his opponents are going to have to persuade millions of Trump supporters to come over to their side.  So if you want Trump supporters to call their congressmen and senators to vote to impeach and then convict Trump, better start playing nice :).  An apology from Hillary for the nickname "deplorables" might be a good start.

 

From the article:  "There’s a lesson here for Trump’s opponents, too. If they want impeachment to be followed by removal, they are going to have to persuade millions of voters who are currently in his corner. Impeachment can’t be seen as an act of culture-war vengeance – a judgment on voters for being stupid and racist enough to choose Trump – if it is to succeed."

 

https://news.yahoo.com/why-trumps-removal-wouldnt-lead-194533639.html

5 minutes ago, Kelsall said:

Interesting article that points out for Trump to be thrown out of office, his opponents are going to have to persuade millions of Trump supporters to come over to their side.  So if you want Trump supporters to call their congressmen and senators to vote to impeach and then convict Trump, better start playing nice :).  An apology from Hillary for the nickname "deplorables" might be a good start.

 

From the article:  "There’s a lesson here for Trump’s opponents, too. If they want impeachment to be followed by removal, they are going to have to persuade millions of voters who are currently in his corner. Impeachment can’t be seen as an act of culture-war vengeance – a judgment on voters for being stupid and racist enough to choose Trump – if it is to succeed."

 

https://news.yahoo.com/why-trumps-removal-wouldnt-lead-194533639.html

Yeah his actual removal would require some Republican Senators to suddenly grow a pair and vote with their conscience, respecting the office rather than their own self interest.

Since that's not going to happen (and it's going to show them up for who they truly are) but Congress IS still going to see this through, perhaps on a similar vein to what you suggested we could get an apology from Trump. Something along the lines of 'sorry for the Campaign Finance Violation, my Honest Services Fraud (look it up), my borderline extortion and my attempt to intimidate the current whistleblower (Witness Intimidation), my Obstruction of Justice in the Mueller case, my siding with Dictators at the expense of trusted allies, my VERY obvious racism, my general dividing of a nation, my Twitter tantrums, my science denying, my cashing in at taxpayers expense by getting everyone to stay at my hotels, my having a go at Meryl Streep. I'm sorry. I'm truly, truly sorry.   

 

And we shall all be grateful and forgiving for at least he didn't call anyone 'deplorable'.

 

1 minute ago, johnnybangkok said:

Yeah his actual removal would require some Republican Senators to suddenly grow a pair and vote with their conscience, respecting the office rather than their own self interest.

Since that's not going to happen (and it's going to show them up for who they truly are) but Congress IS still going to see this through, perhaps on a similar vein to what you suggested we could get an apology from Trump. Something along the lines of 'sorry for the Campaign Finance Violation, my Honest Services Fraud (look it up), my borderline extortion and my attempt to intimidate the current whistleblower (Witness Intimidation), my Obstruction of Justice in the Mueller case, my siding with Dictators at the expense of trusted allies, my VERY obvious racism, my general dividing of a nation, my Twitter tantrums, my science denying, my cashing in at taxpayers expense by getting everyone to stay at my hotels, my having a go at Meryl Streep. I'm sorry. I'm truly, truly sorry.   

 

And we shall all be grateful and forgiving for at least he didn't call anyone 'deplorable'.

 

Ahh...not a good start.

5 minutes ago, Kelsall said:

Ahh...not a good start.

Nope. But not a total waist. 

I did at least say 'we shall all be grateful and forgiving.....'

That'll require a lot of apologies though.

 

Troll post removed along with replies.

 

 

2 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

Yeah his actual removal would require some Republican Senators to suddenly grow a pair and vote with their conscience, respecting the office rather than their own self interest.

Since that's not going to happen (and it's going to show them up for who they truly are) but Congress IS still going to see this through, perhaps on a similar vein to what you suggested we could get an apology from Trump. Something along the lines of 'sorry for the Campaign Finance Violation, my Honest Services Fraud (look it up), my borderline extortion and my attempt to intimidate the current whistleblower (Witness Intimidation), my Obstruction of Justice in the Mueller case, my siding with Dictators at the expense of trusted allies, my VERY obvious racism, my general dividing of a nation, my Twitter tantrums, my science denying, my cashing in at taxpayers expense by getting everyone to stay at my hotels, my having a go at Meryl Streep. I'm sorry. I'm truly, truly sorry.   

 

And we shall all be grateful and forgiving for at least he didn't call anyone 'deplorable'.

 

The only problem for the Democrats, is this whole thing is going to uncover a lot of their dirt too. Even if they do manage to get Trump out of Office, look at the clown car of candidates they have, to run against Trump, or the next Republican. 

The U.S. will look like Detroit or San Francisco, when people move back out of the U.S. and stop paying taxes.

2 hours ago, beechguy said:

The only problem for the Democrats, is this whole thing is going to uncover a lot of their dirt too. Even if they do manage to get Trump out of Office, look at the clown car of candidates they have, to run against Trump, or the next Republican. 

The U.S. will look like Detroit or San Francisco, when people move back out of the U.S. and stop paying taxes.

 Uncover it will! Especially when the GOP members of the house get to use subpoena powers  which is only afforded in a formal Impeachment. According to Chaffetz this is one of the reasons she didn't bring it up for a vote

 

Edited October 1, 20196 yr by riclag

Pubic opinion may well be shifting toward support of the inquiry, but the cash is heading to Trump and the RNC.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/01/trump-campaign-republican-national-committee-raised-125-million-in-the-3rd-quarter-ap-reports.html?__source=sharebar|twitter&par=sharebar

7 hours ago, beechguy said:

The only problem for the Democrats, is this whole thing is going to uncover a lot of their dirt too. Even if they do manage to get Trump out of Office, look at the clown car of candidates they have, to run against Trump, or the next Republican. 

The U.S. will look like Detroit or San Francisco, when people move back out of the U.S. and stop paying taxes.

Agree with the clown car of candidates. They just need one guy that's not bat sh*& crazy to take the WH and they can't do it.

Who is bat s... crazy?havent heard that coming from the dems now trump on the other hand sounds bonkers to me go figure lol you guys go ahead and vote for a guy selling out our country I think I’ll vote for someone else lol

All presidents do stupid stuff. 

Best economy almost ever. 

Good luck dems.