Northern Ireland police will not staff border checkpoints, chief says

[snoop1130]

Northern Ireland police will not staff border checkpoints, chief says

 

View of the border crossing between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland outside Newry, Northern Ireland, Britain, October 1, 2019. REUTERS/Lorraine O'Sullivan

 

DUBLIN (Reuters) - The police in Northern Ireland will not staff border security after Brexit, the Police Service of Northern Ireland’s chief constable said on Thursday.

 

“We will of course police the border as normal. But if the underpinning assumption is that you will see armed officers effectively staffing checkpoints in various parts of the border area, no,” Simon Byrne said in comments reported by the Irish Times.

 

“You’re not going to see lines of Land Rovers waving vehicles over with PSNI people checking documents, goods, the back of white vans and so on.”

 

The chief constable told a public meeting of the Northern Ireland Policing Board that he will ask the British government for 300 additional officers to bring the force’s strength to 7,500, at a cost of 40 million pounds ($49.31 million).

 

The extra officers are in addition to 200 officers who are expected to be in place by March. A further 200 are to be redeployed from other duties to Brexit-related operations.

 

Byrne also told the board members that he was clear with the Northern Ireland Office that it will not be up to the Police Service of Northern Ireland to staff any border security.

 

“We are clearly there to facilitate normality and day-to-day policing, but not to carry out custom checks and the function of other agencies in whatever proposal is or isn’t agreed in the next few weeks “ he said.

 

Britain is due to leave the EU at the end of October, but the two sides have not been able to agree the terms of their divorce. The biggest obstacle remains disagreement over how to keep open the border between Ireland, a member of the EU, and Northern Ireland, part of the UK, after Brexit.

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2019-10-04

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[JAG]

They never did. They, along with the army, guarded the customs and other agencies, to prevent terrorists from murdering them whilst they were carrying out those tasks.

[Scot123]

3 hours ago, JAG said:

They never did. They, along with the army, guarded the customs and other agencies, to prevent terrorists from murdering them whilst they were carrying out those tasks.

Your very wrong. I did 2 tours in NI {2 and a half years} as a soldier and we had checkpoints on the border roads. We stopped cars searching for smuggling and of course weapons etc. Police never there all tucked up nice and safe in their little compounds again guarded by military. If you wanted them to leave said safety OMG!!!! How dare you. 

[bristolboy]

Isn't the point that if immigrating illegally to the UK becomes a lot easier if border crossers aren't being checked?

[Scot123]

8 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Isn't the point that if immigrating illegally to the UK becomes a lot easier if border crossers aren't being checked?

The border will be secured. Its not upto him to decide. He is there to do as he is told or simply get replaced. There will be a border and if ire abuses it then it will become a hard border overnight. 

[bristolboy]

7 minutes ago, Scot123 said:

The border will be secured. Its not upto him to decide. He is there to do as he is told or simply get replaced. There will be a border and if ire abuses it then it will become a hard border overnight. 

You got some legal evidence to back that up?

[observer90210]

Brexit or No Brexit, everything must be done to preserve peace and prosperity in lovely, wonderful Ireland !

[Srikcir]

Boris' proposal would essentially create two borders: a border for customs on the island of Ireland and a border to monitor EU single market rules on agricultural and food products between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. The latter border would be optional under the plan: the Northern Ireland executive and assembly would have to give their consent on an ongoing basis to be part of it or for Northern Ireland to remain aligned with UK rules for goods.

But under Johnson’s proposals, the UK says that a customs border between the Republic and the North does not mean that customs checks and controls need to take place at the Border.

And some checks at or near the Border would have to apply to prevent a free-for-all and smuggling.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/explainer-what-is-boris-johnson-s-brexit-border-plan-1.4038059

Republic of Ireland has already rejected the plan.

[samran]

1 hour ago, Srikcir said:

Boris' proposal would essentially create two borders: a border for customs on the island of Ireland and a border to monitor EU single market rules on agricultural and food products between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.

In other words, a right f^£€ing mess...

Edited October 5, 2019 by samran

[samran]

13 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Isn't the point that if immigrating illegally to the UK becomes a lot easier if border crossers aren't being checked?

Google the ‘common travel area’.

 

You’re welcome.

[Thomas J]

I would think that if I was in Southern Ireland, I would want the border crossing staffed irrespective of Brexit.  It is far easier to get admission into the U.K. travel to Northern Ireland and then freely move throughout all of Ireland.  If the U.K. wants to commit cultural suicide let them, but they should not bring the rest of the country down with them. 

[Basil B]

20 minutes ago, samran said:

1 hour ago, Srikcir said:

Boris' proposal would essentially create two borders: a border for customs on the island of Ireland and a border to monitor EU single market rules on agricultural and food products between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.

In other words, a right f^£€ing mess...

Obviously you have a higher IQ than Boris and co... That is unless "a right f^£€ing mess" is what they intended. 

[samran]

21 minutes ago, Basil B said:

Obviously you have a higher IQ than Boris and co... That is unless "a right f^£€ing mess" is what they intended. 

I think brainwaves like this, and most of Boris’ chums ideas, are borne out of a particular type of upper class English arrogance where they couldn’t particularly give a toss about the Irish (even the ones in the North for whom they are responsible for). 

Edited October 5, 2019 by samran

[sawadee1947]

15 hours ago, Scot123 said:

ire abuses

The other way round...... Brits will flee the poverty and run to the EU paradise.... ????????????

[placnx]

It seems that the Irish Republic is deferring to EU as an excuse for not seriously engaging Boris et al, and EU is saying that they will not do anything to damage the open border, so in effect deferring to Irish government. Catch-22!!! 

 

Meanwhile EU bureaucrats are making such a fuss about their standards, how there will have to be border checks if there is no backstop. Yet if Northern Ireland keeps to the same EU product standards, then after Brexit it should only be a question of goods going out of Britain to mainland EU or Northern Ireland needing customs treatment. It's not necessarily the same situation as with people, so I can understand the UK offer being rational, to maintain UK national unity.

 

So when people get off a boat or plane upon arriving on the island of Eire, there could be a door/lane for EU citizens just going to the Republic, while the other door/lane could be for foreign nationals or EU people wanting to also visit Northern Ireland and the UK. They could receive some sort of passport stamp and perhaps a QR code card or image on phone to pass or respond to any checking, especially if they go on to UK (over the water). If a flight is arriving from a non-EU country, immigration has checks, anyway.

 

For repetitive trade within the island, online pre-registration should be feasible. The technology already exists for checking vehicle registration plates, so cross-border shipments could be accounted without inspection stops.

 

Ireland should have requested a mandate from the EU to handle the negotiations for its border on its own since this could just be an elaboration of existing arrangements. But of course that would not accord with obstructionist agendas.

 

It should be obvious that the backstop would never end and that May's deal is a Catch-22 - endless blackmail by the 27 remainer countries. No wonder it was rejected 3 times by Parliament. The current impasse exposes, gives a preview of the dilatory game that would await the UK should it fall into the May trap. So it's better to confront this stonewalling now than to endure years of fruitless grandstanding by EU grandees.

 

Though we must remember that it's never over - up next - the trade negotiations!!! How many years will that go on? 27 with vetoes vs 1. Without serious reform, the EU may disassemble beforehand.

[SheungWan]

It seems that the Irish Republic is deferring to EU as an excuse for not seriously engaging Boris et al, and EU is saying that they will not do anything to damage the open border, so in effect deferring to Irish government. Catch-22!!! 
 
Meanwhile EU bureaucrats are making such a fuss about their standards, how there will have to be border checks if there is no backstop. Yet if Northern Ireland keeps to the same EU product standards, then after Brexit it should only be a question of goods going out of Britain to mainland EU or Northern Ireland needing customs treatment. It's not necessarily the same situation as with people, so I can understand the UK offer being rational, to maintain UK national unity.
 
So when people get off a boat or plane upon arriving on the island of Eire, there could be a door/lane for EU citizens just going to the Republic, while the other door/lane could be for foreign nationals or EU people wanting to also visit Northern Ireland and the UK. They could receive some sort of passport stamp and perhaps a QR code card or image on phone to pass or respond to any checking, especially if they go on to UK (over the water). If a flight is arriving from a non-EU country, immigration has checks, anyway.
 
For repetitive trade within the island, online pre-registration should be feasible. The technology already exists for checking vehicle registration plates, so cross-border shipments could be accounted without inspection stops.
 
Ireland should have requested a mandate from the EU to handle the negotiations for its border on its own since this could just be an elaboration of existing arrangements. But of course that would not accord with obstructionist agendas.
 
It should be obvious that the backstop would never end and that May's deal is a Catch-22 - endless blackmail by the 27 remainer countries. No wonder it was rejected 3 times by Parliament. The current impasse exposes, gives a preview of the dilatory game that would await the UK should it fall into the May trap. So it's better to confront this stonewalling now than to endure years of fruitless grandstanding by EU grandees.
 
Though we must remember that it's never over - up next - the trade negotiations!!! How many years will that go on? 27 with vetoes vs 1. Without serious reform, the EU may disassemble beforehand.

Serious engagement? Three years of presenting nothing and then a last minute cobble together of proposals tied together with pieces of string? For all the bluster about controlling borders, the whole Brexit project collapses to the West in practice. No two ways about it, the Peace Agreement is the collateral damage. Careless and stupid, but then do the Brexiteers want further discussion to effectively sort out anything? No they don't. Even this will be thrown on the fire in the event of Hard Brexit. And Hard Brexit is what they want. Bunch of charlatans.

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[puipuitom]

21 hours ago, observer90210 said:

Brexit or No Brexit, everything must be done to preserve peace and prosperity in lovely, wonderful Ireland !

And YOU think, the English will do their utmost in their last European colonies, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar ? 

Better get the Gaelic (con)federation going: Eire, Ulster, Scotland .. just like Belgium: Flanders, Wallone, Brussels and the German East Cantons. Big problem solved.

[puipuitom]

6 hours ago, sawadee1947 said:

The other way round...... Brits will flee the poverty and run to the EU paradise.... ????????????

Illegal immigrants... Apply for a Schengen visa... 

[puipuitom]

5 hours ago, placnx said:

1) It seems that the Irish Republic is deferring to EU as an excuse for not seriously engaging Boris et al, and EU is saying that they will not do anything to damage the open border, so in effect deferring to Irish government. Catch-22!!! 

 

2) Meanwhile EU bureaucrats are making such a fuss about their standards, how there will have to be border checks if there is no backstop. Yet if Northern Ireland keeps to the same EU product standards, then after Brexit it should only be a question of goods going out of Britain to mainland EU or Northern Ireland needing customs treatment. It's not necessarily the same situation as with people, so I can understand the UK offer being rational, to maintain UK national unity.

 

3) So when people get off a boat or plane upon arriving on the island of Eire, there could be a door/lane for EU citizens just going to the Republic, while the other door/lane could be for foreign nationals or EU people wanting to also visit Northern Ireland and the UK. They could receive some sort of passport stamp and perhaps a QR code card or image on phone to pass or respond to any checking, especially if they go on to UK (over the water). If a flight is arriving from a non-EU country, immigration has checks, anyway.

 

4) For repetitive trade within the island, online pre-registration should be feasible. The technology already exists for checking vehicle registration plates, so cross-border shipments could be accounted without inspection stops.

 

5) Ireland should have requested a mandate from the EU to handle the negotiations for its border on its own since this could just be an elaboration of existing arrangements. But of course that would not accord with obstructionist agendas.

 

6) It should be obvious that the backstop would never end and that May's deal is a Catch-22 - endless blackmail by the 27 remainer countries. No wonder it was rejected 3 times by Parliament. The current impasse exposes, gives a preview of the dilatory game that would await the UK should it fall into the May trap. So it's better to confront this stonewalling now than to endure years of fruitless grandstanding by EU grandees.

 

7) Though we must remember that it's never over - up next - the trade negotiations !!!

How many years will that go on? 27 with vetoes vs 1. Without serious reform, the EU may disassemble beforehand.

1) So, YOU think, if YOU leave any club/organisation, this club has to continue to negotiate with you on the terms YOU can leave ? The EU = Union of States, with free movement of goods, capital and people amount this union. If the UK wants to leave, then.. L E A V E  ! Consequences follow.

 

2) EU Bureaucrats ONLY and ONLY have to follow up what is decided in the EU Council ( of prime) ministers of all EU member states ( same civil servants in the UK have to follow the UK Government). The EU Commission ( kind of ministers) only have to work out / come with suggestions to the EU council. The EU Parliament only has in some cases a veto right.

 

3) Borders are NOT to make an occasion to stamp something in a passport, but to avoid smuggling etc. These smugglers try to find loopholes in a border defence. So, a check.. a few miles away, is opening a border, everything can pass.

 

4) look to smuggling: NONSENSE to give any importer a kind of free-cars based on previous inspections.

 

5) Ireland has the duty to protect the outside bonder of the EU. Impossible they can make agreements different as the entire Union, unless a sea border between Eire and the rest of the EU.

 

6) The free crossing of the inter-Irish border is agreed and signed as Good Friday agreement. This "backstop" was created on demand of the British to find a way to keep this border open. With appropriate solution later, this guarantee = backstop could be succeeded by anything better.

His Unendless Genius, Unlimited Wisdom, Boris the Liar, thought in Berlin he could find a solution in 30 days.  Yes in technology where we do not have the faintest idea, how it would work.

At least he found the opposite way: Not the EU together with the UK, but ONLY the Stormont responsible for a real hard border or not. Just as the HoC voted against, exactly the 27 EU member states will vote against, leaving two options: Hard Brexit or revoke art 50.

The ‘backstop’ was a British proposal, not one …

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/the-backstop-was-a-british-proposal-not...

18-1-2019 · The ‘backstop’ was a British proposal, not one tabled by Ireland or the EU ... Irish food exports, especially of meat, will be subject to heavy duties.

 

7) new developments of the EU is from 1 Nov onwards nothing which the UK has any voice nor vote in. Looking to the disaster we saw the last 3 years, quite some criticism is evaporated. To give you an idea: the ONLY party in the Netherlands in favour of a NEXIT lost ALL its 4 seats in the EU Parliament. 

And Mr "Selfini"... is now in the opposition. AfD: against (muslim) immigrants, but NOT against the EU. Even Madame Le Pen is quite silent about any leaving the EU.

[carbine1125]

23 hours ago, Scot123 said:

Your very wrong. I did 2 tours in NI {2 and a half years} as a soldier and we had checkpoints on the border roads. We stopped cars searching for smuggling and of course weapons etc. Police never there all tucked up nice and safe in their little compounds again guarded by military. If you wanted them to leave said safety OMG!!!! How dare you. 

No you are very wrong, your misinformation of the facts is a slur on the memory of the hundreds of RUC officers who were slain by IRA murderers. Methinks, if you did actually serve any time in N.I, you were nowhere near the border. And if you did in fact spend any time around it, you would know it was the British army who had the security compounds of high walls, blast proof building and sangers to protect them. The men of the RUC had to go home to their normal housing estates where they were targeted by cowards who mostly placed bombs under their private cars and scurried away in the dark.

[HauptmannUK]

Boris' plan succeeds in replacing no border with what is effectively TWO borders. A complete dog's breakfast.

Of course the Elephant in the Room is the USA.  Half the east coast of the US think they are Irish!  If you have ever been to Boston or NYC on St Patrick's Day you'll know what I mean. Any suggestion that the GFA will be contravened and there will be intense pressure on the UK from the US - certainly no chance of any trade deal.

[StreetCowboy]

10 hours ago, samran said:

I think brainwaves like this, and most of Boris’ chums ideas, are borne out of a particular type of upper class English arrogance where they couldn’t particularly give a toss about the Irish (even the ones in the North for whom they are responsible for). 

Even the ones in the North who agreed to prop up their minority government.

 

I don't think that there was ever any intention that this proposal would be agreed, they just wanted to be seen to be making a proposal, so that it was not their fault that in the end, they got what Rees-Mogg wanted; a no-deal Brexit and no constraints on his financial shenanigans.  

 

EDIT:

If I'd not relied on spell checker for Shenanigans, I'd have been applying for an Irish passport.

[placnx]

To respond to this writer replying to my post #15, I will refer to the numbers he has inserted before my quoted paras in his post #19 - see my response further below.

6 hours ago, puipuitom said:

1) So, YOU think, if YOU leave any club/organisation, this club has to continue to negotiate with you on the terms YOU can leave ? The EU = Union of States, with free movement of goods, capital and people amount this union. If the UK wants to leave, then.. L E A V E  ! Consequences follow.

 

2) EU Bureaucrats ONLY and ONLY have to follow up what is decided in the EU Council ( of prime) ministers of all EU member states ( same civil servants in the UK have to follow the UK Government). The EU Commission ( kind of ministers) only have to work out / come with suggestions to the EU council. The EU Parliament only has in some cases a veto right.

 

3) Borders are NOT to make an occasion to stamp something in a passport, but to avoid smuggling etc. These smugglers try to find loopholes in a border defence. So, a check.. a few miles away, is opening a border, everything can pass.

 

4) look to smuggling: NONSENSE to give any importer a kind of free-cars based on previous inspections.

 

5) Ireland has the duty to protect the outside bonder of the EU. Impossible they can make agreements different as the entire Union, unless a sea border between Eire and the rest of the EU.

 

6) The free crossing of the inter-Irish border is agreed and signed as Good Friday agreement. This "backstop" was created on demand of the British to find a way to keep this border open. With appropriate solution later, this guarantee = backstop could be succeeded by anything better.

His Unendless Genius, Unlimited Wisdom, Boris the Liar, thought in Berlin he could find a solution in 30 days.  Yes in technology where we do not have the faintest idea, how it would work.

At least he found the opposite way: Not the EU together with the UK, but ONLY the Stormont responsible for a real hard border or not. Just as the HoC voted against, exactly the 27 EU member states will vote against, leaving two options: Hard Brexit or revoke art 50.

The ‘backstop’ was a British proposal, not one …

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/the-backstop-was-a-british-proposal-not...

18-1-2019 · The ‘backstop’ was a British proposal, not one tabled by Ireland or the EU ... Irish food exports, especially of meat, will be subject to heavy duties.

 

7) new developments of the EU is from 1 Nov onwards nothing which the UK has any voice nor vote in. Looking to the disaster we saw the last 3 years, quite some criticism is evaporated. To give you an idea: the ONLY party in the Netherlands in favour of a NEXIT lost ALL its 4 seats in the EU Parliament. 

And Mr "Selfini"... is now in the opposition. AfD: against (muslim) immigrants, but NOT against the EU. Even Madame Le Pen is quite silent about any leaving the EU.

1-2) This is not a club but a treaty-based organization, quite unwieldy at that. These comments are largely a regurgitation of Barnier et al talking points, personages mandated to negotiate on behalf of the 27.

3-4) Constructive comments, please. This smuggling story evokes Project Fear.

5-6) In the end for its own interest Ireland needs to take responsibility to work with the UK on the detail as this is too small for the EU to be bothered. It's true that Parliament chose May, and that just goes to show how they were operating in a bubble, seemingly unaware I guess of her botching record as Home Secretary.

7) Actually, the problem is between the northern tier - Germany, NL, Finland being the most demanding - vs the southern members, the ones most likely to want to leave.

 

The BBC show Dateline London has an excellent discussion of future scenarios for Brexit and the next election, which Iain Martin of The Times expects will bring out the realignment of Remain and Leave with voters crossing from normal affiliations. This show airs again on Sunday at 03:30, 08:30, 15:30 BKK time.

 

This discussion also shows the passions of two on Remain plus a neutral party from Brussels:

https://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestory/2019/10/boris-johnson-brexit-proposal-eu-workable-191004195122213.html

[Monomial]

6 hours ago, HauptmannUK said:

Boris' plan succeeds in replacing no border with what is effectively TWO borders. A complete dog's breakfast.

Of course the Elephant in the Room is the USA.  Half the east coast of the US think they are Irish!  If you have ever been to Boston or NYC on St Patrick's Day you'll know what I mean. Any suggestion that the GFA will be contravened and there will be intense pressure on the UK from the US - certainly no chance of any trade deal.

 

A unique perspective. My grandmother was 100% Irish from Eire. I myself am a mutt of many different European breeds, as are many of those people who celebrate St. Patrick's day. The vast majority don't know the difference between Ireland, Northern Ireland, or the UK. If you are pinning your hopes on people from the US demanding that the GFA be respected, you are barking up the wrong tree.

 

There are lobbyist groups for sure, but they will be easily ignored by financial factors. The heavyweights in the US are much more closely aligned to the financial centers of London than anywhere else. The US will support whoever aligns most closely with the national interest. And after brexit, I suspect that the money trails to London will outweigh any Ireland lobbyists. Sure, you will see Congress making statements, but that is only talk. The vote will go to where the money is.

 

I could be wrong, but I sincerely doubt it.

 

[Thongkorn]

1 hour ago, rhyddid said:

Send the Army to man the border !

 which the EU army

[StreetCowboy]

2 hours ago, Thongkorn said:

 which the EU army

the whole point about Brexit is that we want to let anybody's money in, any goods of whatever quality, immigrants from all over the world whom we can exploit, not EU citizens who are entitled rights.   We want open and free trade.  We want to treat immigrant workers as second-class people.  I can see Brexit creating an EU army, for the reason you propose.

[bristolboy]

16 hours ago, placnx said:

.

7) Actually, the problem is between the northern tier - Germany, NL, Finland being the most demanding - vs the southern members, the ones most likely to want to leave.

 

 

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/03/19/europeans-credit-eu-with-promoting-peace-and-prosperity-but-say-brussels-is-out-of-touch-with-its-citizens/pg_2019-03-19_views-of-the-eu_0-02/

[elliss]

On 10/4/2019 at 9:54 PM, observer90210 said:

Brexit or No Brexit, everything must be done to preserve peace and prosperity in lovely, wonderful Ireland !

 

 I wish .  Ireland was never considered,  by the big mouth Brexit brigade , 

    with the big red bus , going nowhere .. oops into a big ditch..

 

     Farage , where are thou, looking for a red tie coalition , green tie,  any tie will do,  except blue..

     Looking forward to Oct 31,  the big guns are being polished.   Boris cannon fodder ...

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2019 by elliss

[placnx]

Thanks, bristolboy, for the Pew research. The recession in the EU is likely to get worse, and when Germany refuses to spend some of its surplus to revive the EU economy, I suspect that more countries will tend to the Greece profile. This would be the vulnerable ones, notably Italy. Perhaps in the case of Spain, the populist movement will have a resurgence if the economy sinks again.

[bristolboy]

11 minutes ago, placnx said:

Thanks, bristolboy, for the Pew research. The recession in the EU is likely to get worse, and when Germany refuses to spend some of its surplus to revive the EU economy, I suspect that more countries will tend to the Greece profile. This would be the vulnerable ones, notably Italy. Perhaps in the case of Spain, the populist movement will have a resurgence if the economy sinks again.

When you haven't got facts on your side, you can always invoke the future.