Over to EU on Brexit delay, Johnson says after parliament rejects swift decision

[SheungWan]

Get the EU to amend Article 50 then.

On a practical note, probably the next step is for Boris to allow the extra days for discussion. And stop the threats. Doesn't work.

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[tebee]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

I do agree that it is dog5hit and I agree that 3 days is insufficient time for debate. But this pile of poo is still largely the 5hit that May managed to achieve and that is because, as a remainer, she allowed the negotiations to be run by the EU from the outset. Boris is too fixated on getting out of the EU by Halloween, his ego is at stake, plus there was no change to renegotiate completely in the time that he has had.

 

You may say that parliament is doing its democratic duty but most of them are remainers who seem happy to drag this out until Brexit fails and they can let the EU take more and more control over the governance of the EU. This possibility is one of the prime drivers of the leave vote. It seems to me that the majority of today's MPs are too lazy or too incompetent to do their own jobs w.r.t lawmaking. Both government and parliament are not functioning and a reset in the form of a general election is required now.

 

The problem with May isn't so much that she was a remainer,  but more that she was a xenophobe obsessed with immigration. She thought she would become a great hero by riding a poputrist tiger of anti-immigration sentiment, but being fundamentally stupid, let it get out of control and it devoured her and her reputation instead.  If you analyze her deal, it's one aim was to get rid of FOM while doing as little as possible collateral damage to the economy. 

 

Her two big mistakes were the red lines she conjured out of nowhere and the invoking of article 50 without any consensus of what we want from Brexit. I said at the time, these would make any successful brexit virtually impossible.

 

What we should have done is considered brexit as a ten + year project - you can't change the complete direction of a countries economy  in two short years. If we had spent the three or four years we have already wasted deciding what we from brexit, involving all interested parties, representatives of the devolved governments, the people that would be affected and businesses, then there might of been some sort of consensus of how a sustainable brexit could be achieved. We should then have looked to taking a transition of at least 7 years to negotiate the deals that would be needed to support that vision.

 

Instead we rushed into a top down brexit inspired by what politicians guessed  the voters sentiments were, solely to get them more votes at the next election and ignoring what was good for the country, as well as well as ignoring and marginalizing almost half the electorate. 

 

This sort of brexit deserves to fail and fail it will.           .

 

   

[JAG]

14 minutes ago, Victornoir said:

Time and time again, history has shown us that war does not work in Europe and that's fine.

It is on this observation that was built the project of European Union (Jean Monnet) which is worth to our generation to have been spared by the war for 75 years now.

There is no reason for this agreement between nations to be limited at Western Europe. Ukraine is knocking on the door and bridges will be established with Greater Russia when we are freed from the US guardianship.

So, sooner or later will be realized the grand initial project of a peaceful Europe "going from the Atlantic until the Urals".

What are you going to call it - Project Barbarossa?

[nauseus]

23 minutes ago, Victornoir said:

Time and time again, history has shown us that war does not work in Europe and that's fine.

It is on this observation that was built the project of European Union (Jean Monnet) which is worth to our generation to have been spared by the war for 75 years now.

There is no reason for this agreement between nations to be limited at Western Europe. Ukraine is knocking on the door and bridges will be established with Greater Russia when we are freed from the US guardianship.

So, sooner or later will be realized the grand initial project of a peaceful Europe "going from the Atlantic until the Urals".

You guys need to get your atlases out.

[SheungWan]

European Union [emoji898]

Operation Babarossa was war to the East. Silly comparison.

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[SheungWan]

Time and time again, history has shown us that war does not work in Europe and that's fine.

It is on this observation that was built the project of European Union (Jean Monnet) which is worth to our generation to have been spared by the war for 75 years now.

There is no reason for this agreement between nations to be limited at Western Europe. Ukraine is knocking on the door and bridges will be established with Greater Russia when we are freed from the US guardianship.

So, sooner or later will be realized the grand initial project of a peaceful Europe "going from the Atlantic until the Urals".

"Bridges with Greater Russia". And so all the nuts with their pet theories come out to play. Itching to divert the discussion.

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[vogie]

So now it's official, Brexit is on hold and we are waiting for instructions from our EU masters in Brussels on how to proceed, what a state of affairs and the remainers are OK with this.

Boris and most of the Tories are being held hostage by the rest of parliament, Corbyn and his band of delayers are applying for squatters rights, what a bunch of useless individuals they all are. The Lib/Dems have over a quarter of their MPs who belonged to other parties not so long ago and were voted in by the electorate to deliver Brexit, what a bunch of undemocrats. As for the SNP they will vote againgst anything the government puts forward.

Parliament is housing these totally dysfunctual bunch of misfits, don't these people have any shame at all. Boris should get an interim possession order and get the bailiffs to evict these useless people that claim to be MPs and gain possession of parliament again.

I suspect a GE may be a long time coming, Labour talk the talk but will not walk the walk, cowards.

[nauseus]

53 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Operation Babarossa was war to the East. Silly comparison.

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Geography not a big favourite of yours?

[luckyluke]

29 minutes ago, vogie said:

So now it's official, Brexit is on hold and.....

 

"Could have saved a lot of time just writing the words "life goes on"."
- Dixit SheungWan -

[nauseus]

31 minutes ago, vogie said:

So now it's official, Brexit is on hold and we are waiting for instructions from our EU masters in Brussels on how to proceed, what a state of affairs and the remainers are OK with this.

Boris and most of the Tories are being held hostage by the rest of parliament, Corbyn and his band of delayers are applying for squatters rights, what a bunch of useless individuals they all are. The Lib/Dems have over a quarter of their MPs who belonged to other parties not so long ago and were voted in by the electorate to deliver Brexit, what a bunch of undemocrats. As for the SNP they will vote againgst anything the government puts forward.

Parliament is housing these totally dysfunctual bunch of misfits, don't these people have any shame at all. Boris should get an interim possession order and get the bailiffs to evict these useless people that claim to be MPs and gain possession of parliament again.

I suspect a GE may be a long time coming, Labour talk the talk but will not walk the walk, cowards.

Yes, they are. That's why nothing but a GE can really change anything.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Victornoir said:

European Union ????

I think that it would shock you to learn that Putin's definition of European boundaries is rather different to yours and your Gaullistier buddies. 

[luckyluke]

One could proclaim that Charles de Gaulle was a kind of Brexiter " avant la lettre" .

 

 

[JAG]

2 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

One could proclaim that Charles de Gaulle was a kind of Brexiter " avant la lettre" .

 

 

It was another European politician, although a contemporary of De Gaulle (in his first couple of years as Deances leader - in exile, granted to him by the UK as it happens) who dreamed of a pan European realm which extended from the Atlantic to the Urals. mind you, he came a bit unstuck over Russia as well...

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

 

The problem with May isn't so much that she was a remainer,  but more that she was a xenophobe obsessed with immigration. She thought she would become a great hero by riding a poputrist tiger of anti-immigration sentiment, but being fundamentally stupid, let it get out of control and it devoured her and her reputation instead.  If you analyze her deal, it's one aim was to get rid of FOM while doing as little as possible collateral damage to the economy. 

 

Her two big mistakes were the red lines she conjured out of nowhere and the invoking of article 50 without any consensus of what we want from Brexit. I said at the time, these would make any successful brexit virtually impossible.

 

What we should have done is considered brexit as a ten + year project - you can't change the complete direction of a countries economy  in two short years. If we had spent the three or four years we have already wasted deciding what we from brexit, involving all interested parties, representatives of the devolved governments, the people that would be affected and businesses, then there might of been some sort of consensus of how a sustainable brexit could be achieved. We should then have looked to taking a transition of at least 7 years to negotiate the deals that would be needed to support that vision.

 

Instead we rushed into a top down brexit inspired by what politicians guessed  the voters sentiments were, solely to get them more votes at the next election and ignoring what was good for the country, as well as well as ignoring and marginalizing almost half the electorate. 

 

This sort of brexit deserves to fail and fail it will.           .

 

   

If May was such a xenophobe then I don't think that the highest ever immigration numbers would have happened during the last 3 years of her watch as Home Secretary.

 

The two year reference is from Article 50. Ten years? No thanks. The problem with Brexit and the subsequent negotiations was that both the EU and the remain establishments in parliament and business don't want it and have done everything they can to thwart it. With even a modest amount of goodwill from both sides then 2 years would have been enough, at least for a sensible agreement, which could have included trade deals.

 

The possibility of a referendum existed since before Cameron even got elected (in 2007 before any UKIP pressure). Plenty of warning. It was not exactly quick and was certainly far less rushed that the one Wilson had in 1975. 

 

 

[JAG]

20 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I think that it would shock you to learn that Putin's definition of European boundaries is rather different to yours and your Gaullistier buddies. 

Now Nauseus, tch, tch, tch; you should be aware that the correct term is "Gaullist" not "Gaullister". I know I am being pedantic, but I am trying to help our colleague from Hong Kong save his bile for a more worthwhile target!

[stevenl]

4 minutes ago, JAG said:

It was another European politician, although a contemporary of De Gaulle (in his first couple of years as Deances leader - in exile, granted to him by the UK as it happens) who dreamed of a pan European realm which extended from the Atlantic to the Urals. mind you, he came a bit unstuck over Russia as well...

And again that silly, insulting comparison.

[nauseus]

2 minutes ago, JAG said:

Now Nauseus, tch, tch, tch; you should be aware that the correct term is "Gaullist" not "Gaullister". I know I am being pedantic, but I am trying to help our colleague from Hong Kong save his bile for a more worthwhile target!

Yes. I know. My bad. I just like the sound of Gaullister, that's all. It adds emph and reminds me of the Munsters!

[JAG]

Just now, stevenl said:

And again that silly, insulting comparison.

He rather left himself open to it by using the phrase "Europe stretching from the Atlantic to the Urals". I'm sorry if I have touched a nerve - look upon it as robust debate?

 

As for "insulting", well I and many others on this forum who argue for the UK leaving the EU suffer far worse on a daily basis. We survive.

[luckyluke]

9 minutes ago, JAG said:

It was another European politician,

He was a dreamer, but lousy strategist.

 

Mrs. Merkel had/has a better plan, she seems to succeed peacefully, where others failed, using the force.

 

Apparently the U.K. tried to reverse her power, they failed, so they dropped off.

 

Well that's a way to see/explain the actual situation.

 

Pretty sure there are others. 

 

[JAG]

5 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

He was a dreamer, but lousy strategist.

 

Mrs. Merkel had/has a better plan, she seems to succeed peacefully, where others failed, using the force.

 

Apparently the U.K. tried to reverse her power, they failed, so they dropped off.

 

Well that's a way to see/explain the actual situation.

 

Pretty sure there are others. 

 

Hmm, well there certainly are grounds for considering umh, a certain British antipathy to what many see as German ambition (?), as being part, if not all, of the Brexit case...

 

And yes, before the outrage flood tide, I know that Nigel Farage's wife is German!

Edited October 24, 2019 by JAG

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

I think that it would shock you to learn that Putin's definition of European boundaries is rather different to yours and your Gaullistier buddies. 

I doubt very much it would.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

So now it's official, Brexit is on hold and we are waiting for instructions from our EU masters in Brussels on how to proceed, what a state of affairs and the remainers are OK with this.

Boris and most of the Tories are being held hostage by the rest of parliament, Corbyn and his band of delayers are applying for squatters rights, what a bunch of useless individuals they all are. The Lib/Dems have over a quarter of their MPs who belonged to other parties not so long ago and were voted in by the electorate to deliver Brexit, what a bunch of undemocrats. As for the SNP they will vote againgst anything the government puts forward.

Parliament is housing these totally dysfunctual bunch of misfits, don't these people have any shame at all. Boris should get an interim possession order and get the bailiffs to evict these useless people that claim to be MPs and gain possession of parliament again.

I suspect a GE may be a long time coming, Labour talk the talk but will not walk the walk, cowards.

Brexiteers failed to plan, wound up stuck in a mess of their own making.

 

And of course, it’s everyone else’s fault.

[tebee]

34 minutes ago, nauseus said:

If May was such a xenophobe then I don't think that the highest ever immigration numbers would have happened during the last 3 years of her watch as Home Secretary.

 

The two year reference is from Article 50. Ten years? No thanks. The problem with Brexit and the subsequent negotiations was that both the EU and the remain establishments in parliament and business don't want it and have done everything they can to thwart it. With even a modest amount of goodwill from both sides then 2 years would have been enough, at least for a sensible agreement, which could have included trade deals.

 

The possibility of a referendum existed since before Cameron even got elected (in 2007 before any UKIP pressure). Plenty of warning. It was not exactly quick and was certainly far less rushed that the one Wilson had in 1975. 

 

 

May not a Xenophobe ? Ha Ha. Hostile environment and all that <deleted>. Fighting and appealing immigration court cases long after there was any hope of winning, just wasting taxpayers money. Using terror act provisions to expel people here on tier 2 visas (highly skilled/skilled shortages) over errors in tax returns. Windrush scandal. Nasty piece of work. 

 

Two years was never going to be enough. You can't turn the oil tanker of the nation's economy around in that  time - especially as the shape of brexit wasn't defined until after that two year was up. You still wonder why the economy  has been wrecked on the reef of uncertainty?

 

If you want brexit in two years you will get a bad brexit which won't last. It's your choice: Wreck the economy for a generation and see brexit reversed a few years later or spend the time developing a sustainable brexit.

 

The idea of a brexit/referendum may  have been around for several years, but no one knew then what that brexit would or should look like. The few plans that had been suggested, like Flexit, where thrown away in the euphoria of the win and replaced by rhetoric.           

[nauseus]

9 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Brexiteers failed to plan, wound up stuck in a mess of their own making.

 

And of course, it’s everyone else’s fault.

Well any planning that there may have been was also (mis)managed by a reMAYner!

[nauseus]

14 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I doubt very much it would.

Find "Urals", select "map" and tell me where they are.

[tebee]

56 minutes ago, nauseus said:

If May was such a xenophobe then I don't think that the highest ever immigration numbers would have happened during the last 3 years of her watch as Home Secretary.

 

 

 

Further to my previous answer -

 

She was also dreadfully incompetent there - is it surprising that she was equally so as PM?  

[vogie]

23 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Brexiteers failed to plan, wound up stuck in a mess of their own making.

 

And of course, it’s everyone else’s fault.

Not interested in echolalia, it's boring.

[nauseus]

5 minutes ago, tebee said:

May not a Xenophobe ? Ha Ha. Hostile environment and all that <deleted>. Fighting and appealing immigration court cases long after there was any hope of winning, just wasting taxpayers money. Using terror act provisions to expel people here on tier 2 visas (highly skilled/skilled shortages) over errors in tax returns. Windrush scandal. Nasty piece of work. 

 

Two years was never going to be enough. You can't turn the oil tanker of the nation's economy around in that  time - especially as the shape of brexit wasn't defined until after that two year was up. You still wonder why the economy  has been wrecked on the reef of uncertainty?

 

If you want brexit in two years you will get a bad brexit which won't last. It's your choice: Wreck the economy for a generation and see brexit reversed a few years later or spend the time developing a sustainable brexit.

 

The idea of a brexit/referendum may  have been around for several years, but no one knew then what that brexit would or should look like. The few plans that had been suggested, like Flexit, where thrown away in the euphoria of the win and replaced by rhetoric.           

No explanation about the high numbers immigrating 2014-2016, however.

 

Some jaunty nautical quips, with the tanker and reef references. But wait. Ahoy there! It has only been remainers who are surprised that this actually happened. 

 

Well if 2 years is not enough than you might explain that to the EU? It's their guideline.

 

The economy is not wrecked but actually still doing better than the rest of the EU.

[nauseus]

8 minutes ago, tebee said:

Further to my previous answer -

 

She was also dreadfully incompetent there - is it surprising that she was equally so as PM?  

No. 

[SheungWan]

Geography not a big favourite of yours?

I passed my Geography 'O' Level, which seems probably not to have been the case with some of the Brexiteers on this thread having a go at dipping their toes in historical references without knowing when and where the references pertain to.

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