Warren's big healthcare plan relies on big assumptions

[samran]

5 hours ago, Crazy Alex said:

It cost you plenty in taxes already paid.

Still much less that if he was an American.

 

The US spend close to 19% of GDP in health care. In Norway, it’s just under 11%.

 

So you fellas pay more, and get less. Only people with blinkers think that is a good deal. 

[samran]

16 hours ago, Thaidream said:

I am sorry to hear about your mother.   My best to you and her.

 

However, you have some misconceptions about Healthcare, at least in America and some serious misconcetions about human behavior.

 

My Thai wife died of cancer and we lived in America for years where we both had top notch medical insurance.  Most insurance polices in America do not  provide yearly check-ups; dental or vision.  When one becomes ill they go to a doctor which normally is not paid by insurance  unless the copay is met.

 

My wife's cancer was actually found in Japan where I was transferred and surprisingly enough after being initially treated at a US Military Hospital- they were unable to handle the treatment.  We opted to return to Thialnd and be treated at the National Cancer Center in Bangkok.  My wife's cancer went into remission using radiation and chemotherapy and using medication that was not allowed by the American Health System.   Thailand's medical  system imports drugs from all over the World ( And very expensive)   My wife lived an added 10 years and would have certainly expired had we stayed in Japan or went back to the US.

 

While the medical insurance covered everything- I had to pay up front and seek reimbursement.  Eventually, the Insurance Company  starting rasing rates -first from $200 per month to $500 per month and then to $2000 per month making it virtually impossible to continue.  I covered the rest out of pocket with savings which were eventually exhausted as well as selling a home we owned.  The total treatment cost was  many millions of baht.  Had we gone back to America-  the cost would have been  5 times the Thai cost plus higher insurance premiums based on the higher cost.

 

II thought I was well funded; great insurance;  large savings; fully paid home.  Bad things happen to decent people.  

 

Medical care is a human right.  No one should have to die or go bankrupt from a lack of money.  People in America are dying and going broke from the current system, This is not from poor planning but from a system that is fuelled by greed and a lack of caring for  peole.

 

All Governments need to provide medical care for everyone in their country. This is not Socialism .  This is what governments exist for.  If things like healthcare; education and  good order are not the responsibility of governments why do people pay taxes?

 

The American system is the most expensive in the World because of an insestuous relationship between for profit medicine; Insurance and Big Phamaceutical.  Thow in lawyers and accountants and you have a system that is in need of a complete tear down and replacement.

 

Medicare for All has to be the goal- the American public can no longer afford to let the current system exist.  

 

However, Elizabeth Warren , if elected will get tremdous pushback from interest groups who want to keep the status quo so these  interests can grow richer while the sick continue to die.

 

IMO-  I would offer Medicare for All as an option for both Companies and individuals for 10 years and I would mandate that any medical provider must treat a person who has it and use the prices listed in Medicare For All.   I would also mandate the same for the drug industry. 

 

 What will eventually happen is through the years, more and more people will start to switch to Medicare for All as the costs are lower and privaate insurace will need to lower their premiums to compete for go out of business.

 

Every industralised country in the World has government sponsored medical care- all of Europe: Canada; Japan; Australia- but not the USA.   It;s time for America to join the rest of the World.

 

 

Thanks for sharing your story. 
 

It exposes the myth that even if you had great insurance you still won’t be left out of pocket. 
 

We had an international gold standard policy here when cancer struck in our family, and we went back to Australia for treatment.

 

We asked the question of the treating doctor, one of Australia’s and a leading global cancer specialist if we should use our insurance or use Medicare in Australia.

 

She said ‘just use Medicare’ and she was right. First class treatment all the way and the only thing we paid for at the hospital was car parking.

 

Given the intensity of the treatment scheduled, I shudder to think what would have happened if we HAD to rely on the private insurance. We certainly would have struggled to keep up the premiums with no income coming in at various points for long stretches, so even though we had had the insurance for years they would have dropped us no questions asked. 
 

The insurance industry in Australia has done its best over the past 20 years to convince/scare the government down the path to a US style insurance arrangement, but after 20 years people are dropping their private insurance in record rates after going to hospital - using their private insurance - and leaving with massive out of pocket costs they thought they were insured for. 
 

 

[Nyezhov]

46 minutes ago, samran said:

The US spend close to 19% of GDP in health care. In Norway, it’s just under 11%

Comparing the health care costs in a diverse country with a population of 300 mill plus to a mini homogenous country that has a population and economy smaller than NJ is sort of silly, nah? There are more miners in the USA than people in Bergen. So whats your point?

[samran]

4 minutes ago, Nyezhov said:

Comparing the health care costs in a diverse country with a population of 300 mill plus to a mini homogenous country that has a population and economy smaller than NJ is sort of silly, nah? There are more miners in the USA than people in Bergen. So whats your point?

ah yes, the ‘diverse USA vs homogeneous country X’ line that Breibart feeds you. 
 

Then compare the US to the other 18 OECD countries. Taken together they are more diverse and different as a whole than the US. Different climate, people’s, languages, local challenges.

 

All manage to come in cheaper than the US.

 

Time to stop with the ‘but we are Americans so we are special/different’ cop out line. 
 

[Crazy Alex]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

The talking points are, to suggest that it can't be done,,  because government does everything more expensive. 

My rebuttal  was the government's in other countries do it, why can't we?

That is my argument . that if other countries can do it , we can do it also?

You did not address that very cogent observation but instead you went into the weeds, Please don't be mad at me for not following you in the weed . 

My argument still stands, If other governments can do it, why can't we?   You want to tell me we we can't, and I promise to listen.

I answered your question. Let's try this again.

 

We can't because we have demonstrated TWICE we can't. First attempt was Medicare, which resulted in a 750% cost overrun.

 

Second was Obamacare. We were supposed to save $2,500 per year. Instead, premiums went UP more than $2,500?

 

Why can't we? I say it's because government is incompetent. I see two past examples of government failing at this. While you may think that means it's time to give them yet even more power, I say you're wrong. And we haven't even gotten into the $22 trillion in debt these same clowns have accumulated on your behalf? You think the people who accumulated about $60,000+ of debt on your behalf can fix health care on your behalf? Seriously?

 

Let's try a practical example for you. Let's say you took your car to a mechanic to change a timing belt on an engine. The mechanic screws it up. Are you going to return to that mechanic and just figure since he's a mechanic and you'll trust him again? Or would you make other arrangements?

[Crazy Alex]

21 minutes ago, samran said:

ah yes, the ‘diverse USA vs homogeneous country X’ line that Breibart feeds you. 
 

Then compare the US to the other 18 OECD countries. Taken together they are more diverse and different as a whole than the US. Different climate, people’s, languages, local challenges.

 

All manage to come in cheaper than the US.

 

Time to stop with the ‘but we are Americans so we are special/different’ cop out line. 
 

We are different. We have much higher obesity rates, for example. More diabetes. More bariatric surgery. More heart disease. So yes, of course our health care costs will be higher. You think the government with two massive failures in major health care initiatives is somehow going to pull off a third time is a charm?

[Nyezhov]

21 minutes ago, samran said:

ah yes, the ‘diverse USA vs homogeneous country X’ line that Breibart feeds you. 
 

Then compare the US to the other 18 OECD countries. Taken together they are more diverse and different as a whole than the US. Different climate, people’s, languages, local challenges.

 

All manage to come in cheaper than the US.

 

Time to stop with the ‘but we are Americans so we are special/different’ cop out line. 
 

Dude I dont read Breitbart so your childish comment demonstrates your hate ridden weltanshauung, typical of the left.

 

So, to respond to your cherry picking:

 

1. I was responding to a comparison to Norway and the USA

2. I raised other issues than homogenitytytyty.

 

America is different, unique and unless you have traveled extensively or lived there, you cant comment, especially when you are from a mini country. But hey, How much of the USAs increased medical costs are derived from unique socioeconomic circumstances, such as high rate of urban violence, DWI... wait, VA costs are included in that, how many combat vets do you have their in the Euro paradise? Do you know how much prostethic limbs cost? How many miners ya got? How about motor vehicle safety, trial lawyers, alcohol, weed, large scale farming? 

 

And we are special. 

 

 

 

[samran]

8 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

We are different. We have much higher obesity rates, for example. More diabetes. More bariatric surgery. More heart disease. So yes, of course our health care costs will be higher. You think the government with two massive failures in major health care initiatives is somehow going to pull off a third time is a charm?

You’ve got 18 other models around the world to pick and choose from, from. What is so hard about that? 

[samran]

1 minute ago, Nyezhov said:

Dude I dont read Breitbart so your childish comment demonstrates your hate ridden weltanshauung, typical of the left.

 

So, to respond to your cherry picking:

 

1. I was responding to a comparison to Norway and the USA

2. I raised other issues than homogenitytytyty.

 

America is different, unique and unless you have traveled extensively or lived there, you cant comment, especially when you are from a mini country. But hey, How much of the USAs increased medical costs are derived from unique socioeconomic circumstances, such as high rate of urban violence, DWI... wait, VA costs are included in that, how many combat vets do you have their in the Euro paradise? Do you know how much prostethic limbs cost? How many miners ya got? How about motor vehicle safety, trial lawyers, alcohol, weed, large scale farming? 

 

And we are special. 

 

 

 

A cop out if I ever read one. 

[Nyezhov]

1 minute ago, samran said:

You’ve got 18 other models around the world to pick and choose from, from. What is so hard about that? 

Because government sucks and screws things up

[Nyezhov]

1 minute ago, samran said:

A cop out if I ever read one. 

In other words, you cant contest what I wrote. I win...again....

[Crazy Alex]

1 minute ago, samran said:

You’ve got 18 other models around the world to pick and choose from, from. What is so hard about that? 

What makes you think any of the 18 models would work here in the US?

[Crazy Alex]

2 minutes ago, samran said:

A cop out if I ever read one. 

Translation: I cannot possibly overcome the facts and realities you posted. I better just make a personal attack and get the hell out of dodge.

[samran]

55 minutes ago, Nyezhov said:

In other words, you cant contest what I wrote. I win...again....

 

55 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

What makes you think any of the 18 models would work here in the US?

 

54 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

Translation: I cannot possibly overcome the facts and realities you posted. I better just make a personal attack and get the hell out of dodge.

Wow, you guys really schooled me.
 

You guys are indeed special and different and the combined experiences of the other 18 OECD countries who all do health care cheaper and more effectively than you (whether they are via public or private means) have absolutely no bearing on what could be done in the US.
 

Yes none of us have heard of your special and complex problems. What is this ‘obesity’ and ‘diabetes’ that you speak of?
 

You know, a single buyer negotiating better deals out of drug companies and hospitals could not possibly work, nor would broadening your insurance pool. Neither would having integrated health care so people are insured and can tackle problems early, when they are cheapest to do so. 
 

None of it would work below the 49th parallel and north of the Rio Grande. Coz you’re Americans, and you are special.

Clearly we simpleton foreigners don’t understand that placing a whacking great effective tax on employers to provide health insurance is clearly the best way. And that making them pay more for a worse outcome is actually a ‘good’ thing. 
 

Yep, you really schooled us. 

Edited November 3, 2019 by samran

[roobaa01]

warren the professor with bankcrupty degree wanna spend usd $ 52 trillion whilst 2 million jobs are lost. the us deficit is usd $ 22 trillion, thus warren wants to more than double it by printing money. what a dellusion next her other nonsense like forgive all student debt loans. warren is economically deranged. true socialism is for losers only.

 

wbr

roobaa01

[Chomper Higgot]

5 hours ago, Crazy Alex said:

The FDA operates the same way as the MIC and banksters. So we can certainly agree the revolving door is a huge problem. We can also probably agree there is simply too much money to be made by politicians for them to give a damn about doing anything about it.

And who going into this election has proposals to tackle that?

[Thaidream]

9 hours ago, Nyezhov said:

Comparing the health care costs in a diverse country with a population of 300 mill plus to a mini homogenous country that has a population and economy smaller than NJ is sort of silly, nah? There are more miners in the USA than people in Bergen. So whats your point?

His point is that the US Healthcare systeem is the most overpriced system in the World and not always the best.  Healthcare is a human right  - not a commodity that should be priced  and made a profit on.   Throw in For profit insurance; Big Pharmaceutical  that is in bed with the for profit healthcare system  plus  lawyers and even accountants and you have a system that will eventually collapse on its own.

 

The number one  reason for bankruptcy is inability to pay the hospital bills. Americans are going broke and at times expiring because of lack of healthcare.

 

Compare that with a country like Norway; Canada; UK; Japan; Australia where people do not fear illness because all their lives they and others are covered by a National Health System mostly paid by taxes automatically deducted from their pay checks.

 

Medicare for all is coming to America- the public wants it and it will be paid for by companies; the wealthy and  other taxes.  It may not be this election but it is coming.

 

As one of the posters  stated- Every other indistrialized country can do it and it works- why can't America.

[sirineou]

15 minutes ago, samran said:

Same guys who tell you that paying more for health care and getting less for it, is a good thing. 

and the incredible thing is, a sizable part of the population is buying it. 

[metisdead]

Some off topic posts and the replies have been removed. 

[sirineou]

4 minutes ago, Tug said:

Well said and thought out although I do feel you missed one problem the medical lobby they keep the problem going protecting big pharmaceutical companies ect ect imo once we get rid of trump and get competent leadership (right or left) we will in our owne messy way evolve towards single payer the sooner the better and thanks for the post love your example

it is inevitable because the current system is financially unsustainable for both individuals and government.

The question is, have we endured enough pain yet to stop screaming  socialism ,and parroting big med talking points?

[Scott]

Off-topic, troll posts and replies removed.  

 

[ricklev]

Like Sanders, Warren's entire career has been about fighting the good fight.  Not just speaking truth to power but taking legal and political action against power.  

 

It's a hell of a fight and in my book they are American heroes!

Edited November 3, 2019 by ricklev

[Number 6]

Well, I'll give her credit. Best way to do this is via Medicare platform. It's simple and proven.

 

Reduce medical fees by 50% across the board and cap. Everyone. Don't like it? Go work elsewhere. Medicine, has for decades been lisc to steal.

 

 

Fund via wealth taxes starting at 3M+ person, 7M couple, 10M family. With deductions for education.

 

Three tier program:

People that pay tax into and fund system

People relatively healthy and reasonable BMI

People that are unhealthy. Alcohol, drugs, obesity, bad diet, chronic poor hygiene. Here you work with nurses to get yourself into above category. Your coverage is void in this latter category.

Lifetime cap for medical coverage which adjusts accordingly to inflation and actuarial issues. Yes, let people die if they've hit their cap. They can fund themselves.

 

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Number 6

[zydeco]

On 11/2/2019 at 5:07 AM, rooster59 said:

 

Warren estimates her plan would require $20.5 trillion in new federal spending over the next decade. Cost-cutting measures aside, she would rely on an array of new taxes to fill the gap.

 

About half of the new federal spending would be covered by having businesses direct most of their current spending on private health insurance into a government fund.

 

The rest would largely come from new taxes on Wall Street, big businesses and wealthy individuals.

These include:

 

- A transactions tax of 0.1% on most securities and transactions involving derivatives.

 

- A systemic risk fee on financial institutions with $50 billion in total assets.

 

- A repeal of corporate tax breaks in the 2017 tax law, returning the top corporate tax rate to 35%.

 

- A new 2% tax on net wealth above $50 million and a 6% tax on wealth over $1 billion.

This all sounds pretty good to me. Giving health care to illegals is crazy. But taxing Wall Street, billionaires, and companies up to 90 percent after a certain level seems like a great idea. These thieves have been transferring wealth from savers to elite bankers and billionaires since the Great Recession. Time for them to give it back. For doing this and being harder on China and Big Tech than Trump talks about but never follows through on Warren is going to get my vote. Would like to see every share of stock buybacks be accompanied with a mandatory matching payment to national health care.

Edited November 5, 2019 by zydeco

[sirineou]

2 minutes ago, zydeco said:

This all sounds pretty good to me. Giving health care to illegals is crazy. But taxing Wall Street, billionaires, and companies up to 90 percent after a certain level seems like a great idea. These thieves have been transferring wealth from savers to elite bankers and billionaires since the Great Recession. Time for them to give it back. For doing this and being harder on China and Big Tech than Trump talks about but never follows through on Warren is going to get my vote.

 Elizabeth gets my vote too,

But I don't understand who said anything about giving health care to illegals. I understand if a person shows up at the emergency room that you don't ask them about their status. If you did and they said they were illegal what would you do, turn them away to die? But no illegal is going to apply for a medicare card, and health care.

[Cryingdick]

Interesting poll from NYT. Looks like Warren is the weakest link right now.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/upshot/trump-biden-warren-polls.html

[zydeco]

16 hours ago, sirineou said:

 Elizabeth gets my vote too,

But I don't understand who said anything about giving health care to illegals. I understand if a person shows up at the emergency room that you don't ask them about their status. If you did and they said they were illegal what would you do, turn them away to die? But no illegal is going to apply for a medicare card, and health care.

To be fair, she is not alone. Here is the source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/policy-2020/medicare-for-all/undocumented-immigrant-health-care/

She and the others need to back off this immediately.

[sirineou]

4 hours ago, zydeco said:

To be fair, she is not alone. Here is the source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/policy-2020/medicare-for-all/undocumented-immigrant-health-care/

She and the others need to back off this immediately.

I agree. If a progressive voter such as me disagrees with such  policy, then I can just imagine how well it will fly with others.

 I can see when someone shows up at the emergency room that such person needs to be treated regardless of  status, and there need to be be no repercussions afterwards because people just wont go,to the emergency room because they will be afraid of the repercussions,  , 

 But to offer to enroll them into the system would amount to an open invitation for every person who is sick and cant get medical care in their country , to come to the US simply just trying to survive.

The Plack at the Statue of Liberty should the change to simply say "Send as your Sick".

  And how would such a proposal work? Would sick undocumented Immigrants become documented then? because how can you have someone in the system if they are undocumented?

  I personally think  they meant in an emergency bases, and they need to explain themselves. I can't believe they have not thought of all the things I mentioned above.   

 

PS: reading the link you so kindly provided. I see that Sanders had the most politically astute answer. To the question  he answered " "My plan would cover all U.S. residents." "

Then the quoted a twit of his "If you are a human being, regardless of your immigration status, you have a right to health care " which I think pertains to my assertion that you can't refuse emergency care, 

Edited November 6, 2019 by sirineou

[GarryP]

On 11/3/2019 at 1:51 AM, Crazy Alex said:

It cost you plenty in taxes already paid.

But is that bad? If your taxes are raised to cover the additional cost of medicare is that bad? You no longer need to pay insurance cover, so you are no worse off. In fact the increase is likely to be much less than the premiums you would be paying. Is that bad?

 

If large conglomerates/companies etc. are paying taxes as they should be instead of offshoring earnings to avoid tax or getting ridiculous tax breaks, wouldn't that in itself help towards healthcare for all. Many rich Americans are paying far less in tax than the middle class American. Even Warren Buffet said it was stupid that he was paying less tax than his secretary in percentage terms.

 

Also, when you mention social democracy to many Americans, they immediately equate that with socialist states or communism, which is crazy.     

[ricklev]

What no anti-universal care conservative is willing to say out loud is that they believe if you don't have  money or insurance and you turn up at the hospital or the emergency room of the hospital you don't get care and you stay sick or you die.   

 

That is the only way the current semi-free market health care system will work.  By letting people die or stay sick.  Everybody with insurance or with enough money for care are subsidizing the poor with no money and no insurance through high prices.  

 

If we accept that we are not going to let people die or turn them away at the hospital door because of no money than we can start working on rational alternatives.   Or just for Christ's sake be honest and say to hell with the poor and the working class and the middle class and let them get sick and die with no care.

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2019 by ricklev