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An Introduction

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hi all,

i just wanted to introduce myself. i came across this forum in search of facts for an article, and i'm now hooked.

hooked and relieved.

my husband and i have plans of moving to thailand perhaps in the next couple of years, but after running into some of the lowest of the low on other forums, i almost decided to change my mind and search elsewhere. this site went far in clearing the air just enough.

background: except for a one year stint in scotland, for the past ten years i've been living and working in brunei, with visits to thailand two - four times a year. in the run up to moving to thailand [perhaps working in bangkok then retiring to changmai], i'm looking into learning thai now because my foreign language skills are awful. just ask my french neighbors in pau!

i'll be either lurking here, or asking endless questions in able to become more familiar with thai living, whenever it happens.

to those responsible, thanks for putting together such a great forum for western women in thailand.

cat

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in the run up to moving to thailand [perhaps working in bangkok then retiring to changmai],

You're very much welcome on this forum.

I have a question:

You have been living for quite a long time in Brunei and are considering to retire in Thailand.

Why is it so?

You do not really know Thailand.

Why not Indonesia, Philippines, Europe or any other part of the world?

Not a critic though, just trying to understand better the appeal for Thailand.

  • Author

to answer your questions:

You do not really know Thailand.

we spend about 2 months a year in thailand and feel we know enough to make this choice. also, by working in bangkok first for five+ years first, we should know even more before the final judgement.

my husband has taught thai students for the past ten years, so we now have friends/ex students/academic contacts from changmai university, to kanchanaburi, to bangkok. the plan is to retire to changmai so he can be linked to the university there. he's heavy into research, loves his field, and has no plans to 'retire'. for me, i also have no plans to retire and i work via the internet so it doesn't matter where i live. and i LOVE the thought of living in a country where everywhere you go, people are beaming at you. as i kid i was told that i smile too much, so am ready to wipe away western conditioning. we're already familiar with the frustrations of se asia, so do not expect for things to work the same as they do in the west. and very aware of keeping 'face', not losing your temper, being polite, etc. yes, i know thai culture is deeper than i'm stating here, but i believe we'll have an easier start than most westerners relocating.

btw - we are hooked into the academic/higher society of thailand, and as we are not party people, are not familiar with the night scene at all. looks like there are two thailands from where i stand. i've always known about 'why' some people go to thailand, but this week was the first time i'd read the rawness. when doing a search i was bombarded with some pretty low opinions about thailand and the thai people, but it's a thailand i don't know, nor do i want to. the thai people i've known personally are decent, hard working, honorable and loyal. the thai people i've ran across in my travels are sweet, helpful and trustworthy. i believe my husband is naive in that he doesn't want to think or discuss the other side of thailand, but i'm of the thought that i need to at least acknowledge it to beware of the risks. guess i immersed myself a wee bit too much this week and became a bit alarmed. hence this forum being a needed bit of fresh air.

Why not Indonesia

VERY anti western in parts, we've done the muslim world and prefer to not be under that control when we retire, and we don't want to live in bali

Philippines

no feel for it, although we have fondness for the people. [large community here]

Europe

too expensive. my husband is british and we've both lived there [uk, france]. the last time recently in scotland. also, there are no servants, and once you've gotten used to servants, it's a bit difficult going back. especially as we are both workaholics and cherish our time. spending all day sunday on household 'chores' doesn't suit anymore. seems like everytime we go back [we have a flat in the uk] i spent all my time doing dishes. not my favourite chore.

why not any other part of the world?

i'm an airforce brat, and have tasted a bit of the world. in our adult lives we've both travelled extensively around the world to conferences, etc, and have checked out different situations. most we've nixed because of religion, infrastructure, and/or politics. kenya at one time was our dream. no more. as an airforce brat i've never felt at home in the us, and trust me, i tried by living in about 10 states before giving up. also, after our stint in scotland, we feel we've been in asia too long to go back to the west, i don't know, but i find living there difficult, with the bottom line always centered around how much things cost. after every visit to the uk [twice a year or so], we are more than glad to get back to sun and unfettered living of asia.

thanks for the welcome

also, there are no servants, and once you've gotten used to servants, 
:o
also, there are no servants, and once you've gotten used to servants, 
:o

What's the :D for? I wish I could agree but since I don't have any servants to rely on I wouldn't really know.

Sounds good tho! :D

Welcome to the forum, feel free to post away, can't help you much with the academic world, or Chiang Mai but if you have any cultural questions etc, I may have some info.

And good luck to you, sounds like you have alot going for you already. Most people come here with rose colored glasses on, not having seen much of the world (myself included, the inexperience, not the rose colored glasses), so you should do ok.

Catat ... I add my welcome too. :o

  • Author

all,

thank-you very much for your warm welcome. and yes, i'll be coming here often to discover more, especially about the cultural differences and western women in thailand. any book suggestions would be appreciated. seems there are loads of western people [mainly men] writing about their time in thailand. the few i've picked up from the airport i wouldn't pass on to anyone, unless they want to fuel their distrust. i don't mind common sense facts though. but, why can't they leave the black brushes at home?

btw, when i posted my response i was in a hurry. it's fathers day out here [a surprise to us as it's usually held mid month, but that's how things work] and we were on our way to a dim sum breakfast. i had to get my husband out of the house asap so the furniture company could sneak in lounge chairs for the patio without him knowing, and didn't double check my post. anyway, i need to correct the two months comment. the most we've been there is two months in a year. yearly visits run the minimum 2 weeks, up to 2 months in total. apologies for misleading.

servants: reallly wonderful, you should try it! expat houses here are large, with marble or tile floors that need to be cleaned every day, or every other day. we also have a beautiful garden with a koi pond that needs to be maintained. also, with the heat and humidity i find western women get shagged out quickly if they are trying to keep up the housework without help. not that i have the time away from my job anyway, even if i wanted to attempt it. our amah [maid] handles everything to do with the house. unpacking luggage, feeding and care of the critters [in addition to platinum koi, we have cats], housework, light gardening [we have a garden group that comes in for the heavy], and she's a fantastic cook. as long as we have the ingredients and the recipe, she'll do a 5 star job of it. the only thing she's hesitant at is the spices. we're advocates of 'rot kon thai' and she thinks black pepper singes the mouth, but except for the odd backsliding, we're finally there.

again, thanks.

cat

servants:
:o

i haven't heard that word for a long time.

i hear housekeepers,maids, cooks,cleaners,drivers, gardners,butlers and even old retainers, but i thought the word servant had had its day because of its negative connotations.

guess it must be nice if you can have 5 star hotel service at home.

hope you can find good "help" in thailand. some people have problems.

enjoy your stay and keep us informed about your experiences in thailand.

  • Author

<<i hear housekeepers,maids, cooks,cleaners,drivers, gardners,butlers and even old retainers, but i thought the word servant had had its day because of its negative connotations.

maybe in the west, but the west doesn't exactly have a huge impact here as far as negative connotations go. brunei is a former british protectorate, so servant fits for some, but maid is also used. a driver is a driver, not to be confused with an amah or maid. old retainer sounds like the deep american south. butlers? hahh hahh hahh! you'd get laughed out of brunei. even the british high commissioner doesn't have a butler.

most residents call them amahs [a local word], proceeded by 'my' [my amah, my driver, my gardener. i don't know why this is]. but my filipino friends [80 or so% are filipino's] take the word amah as a put down and insist on servant or maid. guess it's all about the background of the country, and the individual mindset.

i call her alice. edith was our first 'amah' and we became very close. her son was born while living with us and is named after my father. we still keep in touch via mobile messaging, although she moved home when we moved offstation for a brief stint in the uk.

i usually say alice, or edith when i'm talking out here, but everyone knows who they are in my life. and i'm sure it'd be really confusing if i started chatting about what a good cook alice is to you all right off the bat.

btw - i wrongly assumed most expats in thailand had amahs, just like the majority out here do. i've had several western friends who've lived in bangkok for 3 - 6 year stints, and all have had live in maids, with varied results.

cat

Depends on where you are, income level, etc. Seems like it is more relevant for professional western couples than it is for thai-farang couples. Also, it seems more likely in a big city. I live in the country (island life) and although we have girls working at my husband's resort they don't do my personal stuff (laundry etc) although they do cook for us whenever we feel like Thai food. I don't know, I guess it's because I am a westerner but I feel these girls are not my maids, they work for the resort (its a small place so they have plenty to do). Most bungalow owners here do have their staff do personal stuff for them (ie cleaning their house, doing their laundry, taking care of their kids) but I feel that the girls who work for us have enough on their plates already without having to take care of me too. As I have said, "it's not in their job description!" That said, I am sure they wouldn't mind doing these things but I cannot bring myself to ask them to do the extra work on top of all their other duties (cleaning rooms, cooking food, washing dishes, washing bungalow laundry etc).

brunei is a former british protectorate, so servant fits for some, but maid is also used.

thankfully , thailand never suffered the humiliation of being a british protectorate or colony.

in thailand one word for a maid is "kon chaay", literally servant.

these days it is considered somewhat insulting to the maid to use that word.

the word "maebaan", (housemother,housekeeper) is considered more appropriate.

  • Author

<<thankfully , thailand never suffered the humiliation of being a british protectorate or colony

well, if i was in the position of having to choose, it'd be the british over the portuguese or spanish. or french for that matter. or even the 'visiting' japanese :-) btw, the british are very well thought of here. the sultan's father was such a big fan he created a churchill museum. it's the americans who looked down on.

<<the word "maebaan", (housemother,housekeeper) is considered more appropriate.

thanks for the tip.

i'm of the impression that most are from burma, not thailand. does anyone know?

well, if i was in the position of having to choose, it'd be the british over the portuguese or spanish. or french for that matter. or even the 'visiting' japanese :-)

this is a topic for a lengthy discussion i'm sure. but not now :o

<<thankfully , thailand never suffered the humiliation of being a british protectorate or colony

well, if i was in the position of having to choose, it'd be the british over the portuguese or spanish. or french for that matter. or even the 'visiting' japanese :-) btw, the british are very well thought of here. the sultan's father was such a big fan he created a churchill museum. it's the americans who looked down on.

<<the word "maebaan", (housemother,housekeeper) is considered more appropriate.

thanks for the tip.

i'm of the impression that most are from burma, not thailand. does anyone know?

yeah, right...

either way, having maids and nannies (amahs) will indeed spoil you forever

how can you evr go back? we have both....3 kids....

  • Author
well, if i was in the position of having to choose, it'd be the british over the portuguese or spanish. or french for that matter. or even the 'visiting' japanese :-)

this is a topic for a lengthy discussion i'm sure. but not now :o

and hopefully not 'lengthy' on this forum [wink] [wink]. not sure about you, but i've done and been done on this particular topic. not saying it's not interesting, but i'm not sure there's anything new to say. it'd be just two sides striking a public pose :-)

now back to thailand and it's western women. and amahs. burmese or not.

well, if i was in the position of having to choose, it'd be the british over the portuguese or spanish. or french for that matter. or even the 'visiting' japanese :-)

this is a topic for a lengthy discussion i'm sure. but not now :D

and hopefully not 'lengthy' on this forum [wink] [wink]. not sure about you, but i've done and been done on this particular topic. not saying it's not interesting, but i'm not sure there's anything new to say. it'd be just two sides striking a public pose :-)

now back to thailand and it's western women. and amahs. burmese or not.

I'll let you have a maid Catat. :D Jeez even I have one, but not a live in. :o

  • Author
Depends on where you are, income level, etc. Seems like it is more relevant for professional western couples than it is for thai-farang couples. Also, it seems more likely in a big city. I live in the country (island life) and although we have girls working at my husband's resort they don't do my personal stuff (laundry etc) although they do cook for us whenever we feel like Thai food. I don't know, I guess it's because I am a westerner but I feel these girls are not my maids, they work for the resort (its a small place so they have plenty to do). Most bungalow owners here do have their staff do personal stuff for them (ie cleaning their house, doing their laundry, taking care of their kids) but I feel that the girls who work for us have enough on their plates already without having to take care of me too. As I have said, "it's not in their job description!" That said, I am sure they wouldn't mind doing these things but I cannot bring myself to ask them to do the extra work on top of all their other duties (cleaning rooms, cooking food, washing dishes, washing bungalow laundry etc).

yes, i see you are in a different situation than mine. i'd also be a bit leary if it wasn't the done thing where i was living. i'd also have sympathy for those who are already stretched [just ask alice]. but, if you'd like some help, how about get someone to come in part-time? i'm of the age where doing housework no longer makes my day, like i was when i was first married. i'd rather share the wealth [alice is putting two children through a better education with what she makes here], while doing what i'm excited about.

when i first arrived in brunei i did the same as all the other western women did, state that 'i' don't need an amah. hahh hahh! after 4 months, all of us new arrivals had a part-timer. after 6 months we all have full-time live ins. when my family lived in japan we had maids, then when i was working in the us too many hours i had a part-timer for the heavy work, so i took to it like a duck out of water. FREE!!

Hi theCatat and welcome

Every time I think of the word “servants” I picture butlers, maids, governesses, chauffeurs, housekeepers, cooks, etc. My imagination runs wild at times and can’t help thinking of a scene from Gosford Park :D.

Seriously though I do not think it’s unusual to have a maid or cleaning lady in Bangkok, I have one and she does a great job. However, (this is going to sound crazy :o) I actually don’t mind cleaning – in the west I’ve been known to go into my own little world and scrub the house from top to bottom. I especially find doing the dishes therapeutic – not sure if it’s the running of the water, the scrubbing action or the cathartic experience of cleansing :D:D.

However I won't deny that if it was offered to me on a silver platter I wouldn't resist. :D

I especially find doing the dishes therapeutic – not sure if it’s the running of the water, the scrubbing action or the cathartic experience of cleansing :o:D.

Are you sure you are talking about cleaning the dishes, Nat?

But I pretty much agree with the rest of the story,... :D:D

I especially find doing the dishes therapeutic – not sure if it’s the running of the water, the scrubbing action or the cathartic experience of cleansing  :o  :D.

Are you sure you are talking about cleaning the dishes, Nat?

hee...hee what gave it away? The scrubbing motion :D:D

what gave it away? The scrubbing motion

Partly.

But the cathartic experience,... :o

what gave it away? The scrubbing motion

Partly.

But the cathartic experience,... :D

:o that one would result in me begging for forgiveness :D

  • Author
Hi theCatat and welcome

Every time I think of the word “servants” I picture butlers, maids, governesses, chauffeurs, housekeepers, cooks, etc. My imagination runs wild at times and can’t help thinking of a scene from Gosford Park :D.

Seriously though I do not think it’s unusual to have a maid or cleaning lady in Bangkok, I have one and she does a great job. However, (this is going to sound crazy :o) I actually don’t mind cleaning – in the west I’ve been known to go into my own little world and scrub the house from top to bottom. I especially find doing the dishes therapeutic – not sure if it’s the running of the water, the scrubbing action or the cathartic experience of cleansing :D:D.

However I won't deny that if it was offered to me on a silver platter I wouldn't resist. :D

<<I actually don’t mind cleaning

many moons ago i also enjoyed cleaning, but no longer. i just don't have the time. and the time i do have, i'd spend spoiling my husband and pottering around in the garden. yes, i'm one of 'those' wives. his breakfast on a tray is a daily event. [no, alice doesn't cook his breakfast, that's my time]. then fridays and sundays and holidays [this is a muslim country, so the weekend is split] i cook up something special.

other than that, i don't have the time. when a big project is on, i'm working 12-14 hour days, seven days a week, for three+ weeks at a time. no time for dishes, floors, ironing, etc. no time for sleep sometimes.

<<My imagination runs wild at times and can’t help thinking of a scene from Gosford Park

hahh hahh! yes, i imagine it would do. out here i'm pretty informal though. alice can wear whatever she wants in the daytime, but for dinners she has to dress up in smart black. [no, NOT the french outfit]. and i'm pretty laid back as far as hours. for the locals, they normally work an amah 7 days a week, with one-three sundays off a month. . since alice has a child, i give her friday, sunday and all local holidays off. and pay her twice the going rate of local. and 1/4 more than what my friends pay. i depend on her greatly and want to show appreciation. besides, most amahs don't cook as well as clean AND they are always coming up with personal problems, so alice is a cut above the rest.

<<Seriously though I do not think it’s unusual to have a maid or cleaning lady in Bangkok, I have one and she does a great job.

how does that work out there? is it a live-in situation? or three times a week? can i ask what the salary range is?

out here the range is B$250 - B$450++. depending if you are local or expat, or if the maid comes from indonesia [lower range], or the philippians [higher range], or if they are new or fully trained. the dips pay a LOT more than us peons though.

i know salaries are low in thailand for help, just like here. a fulltime secretary for the government may take home as little as B$400 per month. it's very low out here, but there are no taxes and the cost of living is decent and most things are avaliable at a reasonable price. except for alcohol that is, we are always having to do a booze run across the border. i'm always chomping at the bit to visit thailand!!!

no time for dishes, floors, ironing, etc. no time for sleep sometimes.

Ironing? Sorry, that's against my religion :o . Besides, where I live, no one cares if you wear wrinkly clothes, we're just grateful when you wear something that is not a t-shirt and shorts!

Our house is part of the business really, so I don't do the dishes or the floors either. However, I guess because it is all integrated I like to keep my personal space mine so I do our laundry and those kinds of personal things. We don't have kids so it really isn't much.

Our cook makes about 6000 baht a month, (not including room, but she does get meals), but then, she is cooking all day, she also does dishes, cleans rooms etc. Also, we live on a small island, expenses are higher here than in the big cities.

Again, the burmese staff would be your choice, there are plenty of Thai's willing to do it too.

Funny, in the south, the girls who work for us are called 'dek tam ngan' (literal translation: working kids, why?) , I don't know if this is for personal staff or not but it definitely is the word we use for the staff that work at the bungalows.

  • Author

<<roning? Sorry, that's against my religion

mine too! i hate ironing. when in the west, if it didn't get enough wrinkles out in the dryer, then out the window it went.

<<Our cook makes about 6000 baht a month, (not including room, but she does get meals), but then, she is cooking all day, she also does dishes, cleans rooms etc. Also, we live on a small island, expenses are higher here than in the big cities.

that's about midrange here. brunei $ is the same as singapore, so 6000 baht is B$300 give or take a baht. it's really easy when i run around thailand, i just cut in half and cut off some zeros to figure out price. unlike when i'm in the uk, where i just weep at how strong the pound is when i convert. a tank of petrol here is under B$20. in the uk it's £40 [around B$120+]

cat

<<Seriously though I do not think it’s unusual to have a maid or cleaning lady in Bangkok, I have one and she does a great job.

how does that work out there? is it a live-in situation? or three times a week? can i ask what the salary range is?

It’s not a live-in situation :o. I’m actually a single working woman, so there’s not much cleaning for her to do - she comes in once or twice a week (300 baht – some people pay more or less, I’m happy with this price as easily down a bottle of wine worth more in one sitting :D). She doesn’t have many dishes to do either, except for a mug or (wine) glass – I love cooking for other people just hate doing it for myself, so often eat out, therefore few dishes. Apart from sandwiches, the only thing I really make for myself is mashed potato and gravy (courtesy of Boo – have enough Bisto and oxo cubes to last me a lifetime :D).

From the sound of it, think you’re very lucky to be able to spoil your hubby and potter in the garden – the ideal lifestyle :D

don't forget the masher nat nat :o forgot to ask, did the glass vase last the trip to bkk, or was it smashed to pieces?

(this is going to sound crazy :o) I actually don’t mind cleaning – in the west I’ve been known to go into my own little world and scrub the house from top to bottom. I especially find doing the dishes therapeutic – not sure if it’s the running of the water, the scrubbing action or the cathartic experience of cleansing :D:D.

I have read quite a few of your posts and I think you are a nice person. Is there any chance you are 3 foot tall with a flat head as then it sounds like you would be perfect.. the dishes are stacked and the kettle is on, see you in 15 minutes :D

Is there any chance you are 3 foot tall with a flat head as then it sounds like you would be perfect

:o Actually without heels have been known to occasionally suffer from the Napoleon complex :D:D have also successfully balanced a pint of beer on my head while attempting to belly dance :D

Boo the vase survived! I’m shocked, I dropped that bag so many times. Have the peacock feathers in it at the mo until I find a better place. Keep thinking about the superstitious thing you mentioned about the feathers as my mate, that stayed the other weekend, freaked about them also. Have never seen them in a negative light due to their meaning in Greek mythology. The story goes: Hera didn’t trust her husband, Zeus, so she had her watchdog Argus (with a hundred eyes) guard a cow she thought Zeus wanted to shag :D (actually it was the nymph Io that Zeus had transformed). Anyway so that Zeus could have his way he had Argus slain and in his memory Hera scattered his eyes over the peacock’s tail. Wonder if they do have any meaning in Thailand.

Wonder if they do have any meaning in Thailand.

Can't stop a Thai man in a "power" position to have the girl he wants,...

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