Motorcycle hits bicycle: who is at fault?

[Isaanbiker]

16 hours ago, Sheryl said:

 

Thanks, this is what I thought I had always heard.

 

Prior to this family starting in on the cash demands my thought had been to (at the school meeting) ask for reimbursement of actual medical costs (500 baht at provincial hospital) plus 1500 baht for a new (used) bicycle. (It was an old bike purchased used to begin with that was totalled, but it was also the only bike in the household). And I was prepared to come down in negotations a bit  on the bike cost given how old it was.

 

Had they come in apologetic and pleading  their own expenses for moto repair, I would probably  have settled for just the 500 baht medical costs.

 

But now I am seriously p***ed. And the Cambodian parents are outraged. It is an immutable law in Cambodia -- except of course if someone hiso is involved - moto huts bicycle, moto pays, end of story. They weren't looking to make money out of it, just outraged that money is being asked from them/me. (I think the expectation is that they would get it from me, obviously they can't afford it themselves).

 

Have to admit my reaction to all this is more than partly down to the fact that it is the third time in 7 months that someone in my household has been hit by a motorcycle. First I was run over at high speed  while crossing the street (3 fractures, leg torn wide open, 2 surgeries, 2 weeks in hospital, 2 months in a wheelchair). Then my beloved dog was run over and killed. And now the little girl on her bicycle.

 

I forgave the guy who hit me, sincerely (my insurance paid the medical costs). We never got to see the driver who killed the dog but my sentiments by then were a bit frayed, though I made allowances for possibility that it couldn't be helped (it was unwitnessed so don't really know the details). But now moto attack #3, and the responsible parties have the nerve to try to make money from it to boot....I am completely out of patience.

 

 

Sorry to hear of your misfortune. I also almost got killed by a speeding kathoey who had the pick up of a teacher when they drove home in the morning and did a red light with high speed.

 

   I was luckily driving my pick up when that happened. 

 

  The injuries were so severe that it took three hospitals to figure that out how fragged up my spine was/is.

 I was asking for 150K, but should have asked for a minimum of 500 K.

 

  I hope that you'll not have such unpleasant events again. Weird is how many foreigners got injured when you read a few threads. 

 

  Thais do not consider Cambidians as human beings, they use them as slaves only.

Why do they believe that they are a better race makes me a bit angry.

 

  

[BritManToo]

27 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Anyone know on that? For future reference.

Since there seems to be a "motorcycle curse" upon my household....

Yes, you definitely need a police report for the hospital to claim direct.

My gf ran around for a foreigner who toppled his m/c while in his driveway, breaking his hip.

She took him to government hospital, negotiated the price (30k, maximum under government insurance), then got the police report for the hospital (NakornPing), who then claimed their money direct.

The old guy paid 25k of his own money to recuperate (in plaster) for a month in a CM private nursing home (LaLissa).

Edited November 28, 2019 by BritManToo

[Sheryl]

1 minute ago, BritManToo said:

Yes, you definitely need a police report for the hospital to claim direct.

My gf ran around for a foreigner who toppled his m/c while in his driveway, breaking his hip.

She took him to government hospital, negotiated the price (30k, maximum under government insurance), then got the police report for the hospital, who then claimed their money direct.

The old guy paid 25k of his own money to recuperate (in plaster) in a CM private nursing home.

 

Thanks, good to know for future. And explains why we could not get this covered.

[TheFishman1]

Motorcycle at fault don’t pay them ask them to pay for bicycle 

[reargunnerph3]

Ask for a copy of the motorcycle riders license and insurance? No license = no police = nothing happening. Buy the kid a new bicycle?

[scubascuba3]

5 hours ago, Sheryl said:

 

You may be right  Sally (in which case the approach unfortunately worked).

 

Though I think sheer greed and a perception of the other party being vulnerable (Cambodians..and with a foreign employer) also played a role. I did not mention earlier because did not want to confuse the discussion but they actually managed to wrangle 1000 baht from me yesterday - demanded it from my Thai housekeeper (elderly uneducated  lady)  who called me from the hospital and I misunderstood  and thought it was the hospital bill so arranged to pay it, being at that point anxious to ensure the girl was not denied any needed treatment; that hospital will often require things like Xray fee to be paid in advance if not under the 30 baht scheme which of course the girl is not.

 

Found out later it was taken by the driver's family and the hospital bill altogether separate and directly paid by the Cambodians . I was pretty irate when I learned that and told the housekeeper as much so she sent her(adult and better educated)  daughter to retrieve it  last night. On arrival at the house she was greeted immediately with aggressive shouts of "1,000 is not enough! We want more!"  to which I replied as you can guess and said I was more than ready to get the police involved if they so desired.. She managed to get the 1,000 back but apparently when they showed up at the school this morning they were still looking to get some profit out of this, and from what I could hear in the background as I talked with the principal (who was quite pleasant) they were being pretty strident about it. Some people....

 

For future reference, in a motor vehicle  accident should the family decline to pay the hospital bill and instruct the hospital to claim from por ror bor? (I believe I heard somewhere that in addition to the insurance of a vehicle there is also a fund for victims of accidents with insured vehicles)?

if the motorbike is taxed and insured cover as follows

[tandor]

21 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I don't know the answer but I find your assumptions a little strange.

When is too fast too fast? Did anybody measure their speed? I don't think looking at them and thinking "they are too fast" is good enough.

Why should the motorcycle automatically be liable? I.e. maybe the bicycle was suddenly wobbling from side to side on the street.

 

Obviously I don't know what happened. But without knowing all the facts I think it's strange to blame the motorcycle driver alone.

..correct...whoever said they were riding at excessive speed needs to have at least 5 years experience in that area to assess accurately a vehicles' speed within 5kmph, or some other evidence ie video where the speed can be approximated from two stationary points...good luck to the OP.

[rumak]

6 hours ago, Sheryl said:

On arrival at the house she was greeted immediately with aggressive shouts of "1,000 is not enough! We want more!"  to which I replied as you can guess and said I was more than ready to get the police involved if they so desired.. She managed to get the 1,000 back but apparently when they showed up at the school this morning they were still looking to get some profit out of this, and from what I could hear in the background as I talked with the principal (who was quite pleasant) they were being pretty strident about it. Some people....

FROM my earlier post,  page 3

 

Really comes down to the people involved .  Thais can get aggresive, or at the least refuse to acknowledge wrongdoing.  

The reason I say all this is because nothing is for sure and if no independent and truthful witness to the incident it will become a power play.   If the gardener does not have much experience in resolving a conflict it might be difficult !   

 

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by rumak

[Scott Tracy]

Counter claim seems the way to go.

Remind the parents of the motorcyclist of the rules regarding age, license, helmet, tax, insurance, etc. Perhaps if you know your headman well, he can intercede too, for the price of a beer.

[thrilled]

Unwritten rule in Thailand. The larger vehicle has the right of way. The police could say the motorcyclist has to pay the bicycle rider money. It’s kind of backwards in Thailand. I walk a lot in Thailand and I’m extra careful. Riding a bicycle,motorcycle and a small car in Thailand you might be waiting for an accident to happen.

[Kwasaki]

22 hours ago, Sheryl said:

And I was prepared to come down in negotiations a bit  on the bike cost given how old it was.

What I post is thai on thai accident situation in our province.

 

S/h bicycle you can get for 300 baht but they are at fault so should compensate a new about 1800 baht or so.

 

The problem I'm sure you know it the fact the victim is Cambodian and they are considered by Thais as low class aliens in Thailand.

 

Reminds me of when I worked in Arab countries if involved in a motor accident even if it is not your fault, it is because you shouldn't be there. ????   

 

I sympathise and understand you wanting justice so if you as Falangie tell local police that you will go worldwide public about the incident maybe some justice will be done, up to you. 

 

 

[Captain 776]

What did Police say?

They decide who is at fault right at the scene.

[Captain 776]

Dont expect anything to happen fast.

A lady pulled right in front of me Oct 26 2018, Police determined she was at fault, I needed 765,000 BHAT for 2 surgeries.

Court date is Dec 17, 2019.

[MeePeeMai]

8 minutes ago, Captain 776 said:

Dont expect anything to happen fast.

A lady pulled right in front of me Oct 26 2018, Police determined she was at fault, I needed 765,000 BHAT for 2 surgeries.

Court date is Dec 17, 2019.

Wow that's terrible. Didn't her insurance (or yours if she had none) pay for your medical bills?

[ifmu]

On 11/27/2019 at 4:14 AM, Chazar said:

why on earth would you  think that? does liability not enter into it?

No.   Only the circumstances leading up to it. ...need more info. But I like the comment about parents should deal with this .. Or let the insurance comp. Oh yeah no ins

Edited November 28, 2019 by ifmu
spell

[thailand49]

There is two laws, one is on the books since 1972-76 motor vehicle act of Thailand and then there is the made up law by the police who had good intend but made the problem worse by not enforcing the law.

 

The made up law is allowing kids to use motorbikes to get to school thinking they are doing Thais a big favor. I label this the biggest source of the problem " factory of death " while they urge everyone to obtain license at check point they give a pass to children right off the start that things don't matter you aren't responsible due to your age and you need to get to school.

 

In this particular case there is no mention of what the child is doing on the bicycle being on a bicycle doesn't remove her responsibility there are responsible operation procedures even for a bicycle.

 

In the end,  the police in these types of meeting have no authority to enforce any party to make payment they only think they have because if gone unchallenged they continue to be the source of the problem in these types of matter. First, and foremost regardless of what happen or what was allowed the law or act states you must have a license to operate as we know the kid didn't have one that is really the end of story as to whom is at blame. There is no law that gives exception except in the mines of the police.

 

Sure not easy for either party to say this to the police especially if they are Thai since they are brainwashed that this is how the system works so they go along with it they see nothing wrong with it because it is part of the theory " This is Thailand " I have no problem with any solution that makes thing better but this isn't one of the cases since 85% of the death comes from motorbike.

 

In five years I've participated in two of these types of meeting for Farang friends and one for myself when I was on my motorbike. All incident the Farang had no involvement in creating the accident in fact all the Thais made admission to guilt although in this case it involves locals the law or act still exist. In all these cases the police ask for money for the Thai although guilty indicating " you will feel better about yourself etc "  basically the theory you have it so you should give it up.

 

I speak enough Thai to get my point across, learn never say it as you are mad nor raise you hand to show you are losing control. In each case I tell the official with the driver handbook in my hand that what is in the book is what is applied.  Then I add if I took a gun and told you to hand over your wallet with all your money would you feel good about it? In the end, I tell them you took a oath to up hold the law please do your job.

 

As noted they don't have the authority to extract anything out of anyone even locals, just sit and don't budge. In all the cases after we got tired of sitting told the officer, " we are leaving if you want us to come down again we will be coming down with a lawyer "  of course politely as in each case they change their toon we Wai and walk out.

 

In the end, no one wins including you because you can't scrape the bottom and get anything when in general there is nothing to get even if you go to court it is basically a wash as we American call it.

 

Good luck!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Max69xl]

On 11/27/2019 at 7:15 PM, Chazar said:

nonsense, the  Thai who hits you might try this bs  on but its  just the  normal procedure

A Thai national vs a Cambodian?

Thai national wins.

[Jaxxper]

I’d claim that the motorcyclist ( assuming having bonefide licence etc) should claim on their insurance. I guess if the have no license etc then they are SOL. Maybe have someone talk to the parents ( Police maybe) and say you will not make an issue with the police if they repair/replace the pushbike. Might be a way to go.

 

[thailand49]

On 11/28/2019 at 6:12 PM, Max69xl said:

A Thai national vs a Cambodian?

Thai national wins.

Look the only weakness I see here is that one party is Cambodian although here legally poor most likely uneducated and scared but no one police or the school has the authority to make a decision as to who is going to pay!

 

The only reason these types of meeting even happen is because there isn't one Thai in this country from the top to bottom has any idea what the rules are driving is even about the reason for the discussion. These discussion the police throw out nonsense hoping someone is going to break down and pay up end of story! and it seem here 8 pages that not only Thai have brought into the " This is Thailand "

 

In the end, regardless of past practice if the boy had time to sound his horn he had time to slow down or go around! Him not slowing down and actually crashes into the girl is not surprising since when they are taught there is not one ounce of being defensive. You see it each night on the Thai channels accident after accident as if they are causing them on purpose just to be on T.V.

 

I've work in the transportation industry for 40 years, prior to retiring had carried Commercial A, teaching, certifying commercial drivers attended countless seminars with the California Highway Patrol in depending fault of accidents. You can determine fault just by the impact, tire marks if any on the road or just by where the biker landed. In attending the seminars I made a number of friends and got trained how to ride a motorbike.  Years later I entered into the Airline industry with my training the last five years I traveled through the U.S. in training ground crew workers how to handle equipment and towing Aircraft.  Never in my imagination I thought any of that training would come in handy in Thailand in helping me stay alive.

 

As noted in an earlier post it is really standing up for yourself based on one thing and that is the law of driving in Thailand!  nothing else really matters if you think because you aren't Thai that is on you because you have bucket and brought into their thinking which is discrimination and prejudice! Recently I renewed my motorbike/Car license for the 3rd time actually stay up for the whole video and glad I did because I learn something it confirmed aside from the footage made in Thailand that nearly all the rules were taken from the West so aside from Pedestrian having right away the rules in the West applies here. Just because no one complies with them doesn't mean if you do you are wrong! 

 

Driving here is never taking anything for granted or assuming if you put yourself for something to happen it will.  You got to remember both parties are just children although one was riding a bicycle there are studies when it comes to decision making don't mature until you are in your late Twenties the reason why youth pay more in insurance premiums and certainly both in this case were and still are children which is why you don't put a weapon in the hands of a child which is exactly what the Government or Police have done by making an exception for children to take a weapon to get to school without any real training and zero enforcement.

 

As for the original poster forget about about the bicycle. Cambodian or not if she is attending a Thai school should have basic medical coverage through the school. As for coverage for the boy on the motorbike I can safely say 99% of Thais do not carry 3rd party insurance the insurance that comes with the registration of the bike covers only for medical so it isn't going to cover the bicycle. The poster if concern can easily get a second hand one for 1000-1500 baht. The police nor does the school has any power to extract anything from either party if there is someone who can translated to them what I wrote here that should settle the matter. In a Thai court which it will never get that far no Thai judge is going to rule or come up like the 8 pages of stuff here he is going to rule on the law because the lawyer will present his case on what I just wrote and not all this " This is Thailand B.S. "  is when the police try to be judge and jury on something they don't even know themselves and that is how to drive and Oh, put on a helmet themselves!

 

Just sit there and say nothing when everyone gets tired get up Wai and walk out.

[brokenbone]

On 11/27/2019 at 7:33 PM, Sheryl said:

 

The Moto hit the bicycle.

 

The bicycle had  turned right from left lane to go into the driveway. No other vehicle in sight when she started the turn. It is a very quiet country road.

 

The motorcycle came roaring up while she was still in the middle of the road. Honked but did not slow down, the girl was afraid to move forward or back when the moto honked not knowing what the moto would do so stayed still (seems sensible to me - enable the moto to gauge her position and go around her).

 

Moto despite having seen her did not slow down. Crashed right into her hitting broadside. Moto was not driving in the left lane but rather near the center of the road.

 

No witnesses though so we cannot prove she did not turn abruptly right in front of the moto (which still shouldn't have been in the center of the road I think).

 

I doubt anyone is much up for trying to wade through the minutiae of which vehicle was exactly where, though. I just thought there might be an automatic rule or cultural norm when it is motorcycle vs bicycle. There is in Cambodia, the moto is automatically at fault. Likewise car vs moto, the car is.

well, bicycles dont usually have indicators, and waving with an arm

is precarious on a bicycle, -they are notoriously difficult to balance as it is already.

so im guessing he was overturning when she without knowing cut him off,

bicycles typically dont have mirrors either.

 

it would take camera to actually verify who is at fault,

as it is i think i would just say both are at fault,

guessing theres no eye witness either

[Airbagwill]

Favourite pastime of farangs and Thai people alike on Samui is passing right-turning vehicle on the right.

[Airbagwill]

23 minutes ago, brokenbone said:

t would take camera to actually verify who is at fault

Why do people put so much faith in cameras - the assertion "they never lie" is just a load of rubbish. Almost any video can be easily ripped apart in a court and this has been the case ever since they were allowed as evidence.

[Lokie]

The girl from whats been explained was not at fault, the boy on motobike was

However

as been mentioned earlier in thread a Thai v any other nationality here in LOS out Trumps any laws or what ever else you want to throw in the ring. Resist any payment but may be better to just concede to save the Cambodian family aggro down the line, they have to live here and unfortunatly its how the mop flops

[Airbagwill]

On 12/1/2019 at 4:16 PM, brokenbone said:

t would take camera to actually verify who is at fault,

Cameras are just about the worst possible evidence and can be utterly ripped apart in a court.

[Airbagwill]

On 12/2/2019 at 9:39 PM, Lokie said:

The girl from whats been explained was not at fault, the boy on motobike was

However

as been mentioned earlier in thread a Thai v any other nationality here in LOS out Trumps any laws or what ever else you want to throw in the ring. Resist any payment but may be better to just concede to save the Cambodian family aggro down the line, they have to live here and unfortunatly its how the mop flops

There is no such thing as an incident where blame can be attributed 100% to any one party

[scubascuba3]

What was the conclusion to this? @Sheryl

[Lokie]

45 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

There is no such thing as an incident where blame can be attributed 100% to any one party

Spit it out man, do not talk in riddles...?

 

We are in LOS, right or wrong does not enter into settling a dispute like this (call it what you will) The cambodian family could end up getting more aggrevation than it is worth, in long run they will not win (yes unfair but thats how it is here on the whole)

 

Never turn up to a gunfight with a knife (sort of thing if you like, as here you will come off worse) 

[Sheryl]

3 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

What was the conclusion to this? @Sheryl

See post 85.

[scubascuba3]

This is the site to look at for details on the compulsory insurance. A police report is required. I'm not sure if it covers 3rd party medical costs 30k limit, in theory another rider or car should have own insurance

 

https://www.rvp.co.th/index_en.php

 

It's also worth knowing where your local office is