I so fed up with stupid dangerous drivers

[VocalNeal]

5 hours ago, canthai55 said:

I xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx find it to be just another day in paradise.

That and that I drive like an Indonesian.

[richard_smith237]

18 hours ago, kingofthemountain said:

21 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

You are 100% wrong - you just don't understand the stats

80% re vulnerable road users - the stats you refer to are deaths - if you look the percentage of private 4-wheeled vehicles they are about the same as the national average for the USA.

Furthermore the tertiary source you quote is also inaccurate as it is misquoting deaths per 100k as 'accidents" a totally different statistic.

It is a problem with many people's opinions on road safety in Thailand is that they are unable to make head nor tail of the  reality

yes for sure i don't understand

good for you feel sure and secure in your 4 wheels vehicle

i just hope for you don't be unlucky with Somchai in his 12 wheels truck

or a crazy minivan with his traditionnal ''brake failure'' (Aka i feel asleep at the wheel)

i don't know for the USA but in Europe these accidents are very rare because the rules

and the enforcements are very stricts. In Thailand these accidents are very common because

the rules aren't stricts and the enforcements don't exists.

It's a fact, but you can stay in deny, no problem, i can not waste my time to argue about it

 

Airbag makes an extremely valid point: 

 

A rudimentary comparison of Road fatality statistics between Thailand and USA identifies the following:

- Riding a motorcycle is 16x more dangerous in Thailand than in the USA,

- Driving (or being a passenger) in a car (4 wheeled vehicle) is 2.7x more dangerous in the USA than in Thailand

 

 

 

Thailand Road Deaths: (Ref 2013)

WHO Stat: 24,237 road deaths per year

12% of which were in 4 wheeled vehicles = 2908 deaths per year.

75% of which were motorcycles = 17,935 deaths per year

Population of Thailand: 69, 040,000 People

 

Death rate in cars per 100,000 people = 4.21

Death rate on motorcycles per 100,000 people = 25.9

 

 

 

US Road Deaths: (Ref 2017)

Stat: 40,327 road deaths per year

92.8% of which were in 4 wheeled vehicles = 37,133 deaths per year.

13.2% of which were motorcycles = 5,286 deaths per year

 

Population of USA: 327,200,000 people

 

Death rate in cars per 100,000 people = 11.34

Death rate on motorcycles per 100,000 people = 1.61

 

 

Inaccuracy of statistics:

With all of the above noted, what these statistics do not account for is distance covered. 

For a RTA stat to be truly representative it needs to be on a basis of Per 100,000 people per xx KM driven / ridden. 

I would hazard a guess that if the information were out there to also include distance driven we would have a more comparable statistic, perhaps bringing the death rate for cars (4 wheeled vehicles) to be quite similar between Thailand and the USA and also one which is more damning for Thailands motorcycle statistics. 

 

 

References: 

http://www.thaiwebsites.com/caraccidents.asp

https://driving-tests.org/driving-statistics/

 

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2019 by richard_smith237

[Airbagwill]

Here's a pie chart using WHO stats...

 

 

 

"For a RTA stat to be truly representative it needs to be on a basis of Per 100,000 people per xx KM driven / ridden. "

 

This is a problem I have posted on several times - the gathering collating and analysis of RTA stats in Thailand is virtually nil. 

Certain orgs gather stats at certain times but there is no long term series that can be used  properly.

 

"Using its own methods (called "Projected death registration data"), the WHO estimates the number of road traffic deaths in 2013 at 24,237 persons, or a Rate per 100,000 population of 36.2

According to this estimate, Thailand in 2013 ranks SECOND in the WORLD, after Libya, which is in the midst of what can be at least called 'civil unrest'. Though based on data from 3 years ago, this statistic is now invariably mentioned in any article in local newspapers, related to the traffic deaths issue. The number of deaths may be an estimation, but we never noticed it challenged by Thai authorities"  - Accident Statistics for Thailand

 

PS - in most countries RTi's crashes etc are scientifically analysed and the results fall into 3 categories - Minor injy, serious injury and fatal - there is no such large database in Thailand.

 

If you want to see what a successful road safety country does, check out the wealth of detailed info on this site. - 

https://data.gov.uk/dataset/cb7ae6f0-4be6-4935-9277-47e5ce24a11f/road-safety-data

Edited December 4, 2019 by Airbagwill

[Airbagwill]

19 hours ago, kingofthemountain said:

i just hope for you don't be unlucky with Somchai in his 12 wheels truck

or a crazy minivan with his traditionnal ''brake failure'' (Aka i feel asleep at the wheel)

As has been said there is no real way to support your claims as there is little or no scientific analysis of RTAs in Thailand.

Again your comments are largely assumption and prejudice - as indicated by your derogatory name for the people of Thailand

[Airbagwill]

13 hours ago, Fairynuff said:

You will never fix stupid, so pointless trying

Actually this is what "safe system" does - it mitigates the results of poor driving and human error and prevents them for occurring in the first place.

The sad thing is that these drivers don't realise how they are affected by road systems and misinterpret it as being a sign that they themselves are really great drivers....

Edited December 4, 2019 by Airbagwill

[richard_smith237]

4 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

Actually this is what "safe system" does - it mitigates the results of poor driving and human error and prevents them for occurring in the first place.

The sad thing is that these drivers don't realise how they are affected by road systems and misinterpret it as being a sign that they themselves are really great drivers....

Definitely agree - the road design and engineering in the UK, i.e. position of lanes, junctions, intersections, traffic calming measures, positioning of signs, placement of joining and departing lanes etc all play a major contribution towards road safety in the UK. Most drivers are blissfully unaware of how they are 'guided' by the road into a safer automotive environment. 

 

Road engineers and designers in Thailand on the other hand do tend to 'throw' a junction wherever they please with a degree of inconsistencies which lends to hesitation and accidents. 

[Airbagwill]

2 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Road engineers and designers in Thailand on the other hand do tend to 'throw' a junction wherever they please with a degree of inconsistencies which lends to hesitation and accidents. 

Agreed - but I'm not sure they actually have trained road engineers/designers in Thailand! I get the impression that any Tom, Dick or Harry may get the job.

[lagavulin1]

I actually thought that the quality was improving despite my expectations of carnage due to the bigger bikes on the roads. My near death experiences seemed to be declining. I was wrong. Then came the food delivery drivers! 

[hobz]

20 hours ago, BestB said:

I do not hate everyone.  I only hate idiots who do not know and do not follow simple road rules 

So does everyone else.

[DannyCarlton]

4 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

It's about time the expat "driving experts" (not even road safety!) - took a long hard look at their Dunning Kruger -like selves.......

 

- “Thai roads are dangerous and all Thai drivers are reckless morons”.

And of course, as in your post, your opinion is right and everyone else's is wrong.

 

Fact: Thailand has one of the highest annual number of road deaths (per 100,000) in the world.

 

Fact: The Thai driving test is cursary at best.

 

Fact: RTP pay minimal attention to enforcing the traffic laws.

 

Fact: Thai roads are among the most dangerous in the world mainly due to the extreme lack of driving skills of it's drivers.

 

These facts aren't just "my opinion". When I look in the mirror, I see someone who has driven for most of his life in a country where it takes months of training, an hour long driving test, on public roads to obtain a driving licence, the police rigourously enforce traffic laws and the average driver doesn't suffer from "face".

 

Road deaths per 100,000 (2018). Thailand= 32.7,  UK= 3.1.

[Airbagwill]

27 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

And of course, as in your post, your opinion is right and everyone else's is wrong.

 

Fact: Thailand has one of the highest annual number of road deaths (per 100,000) in the world.

 

Fact: The Thai driving test is cursary at best.

 

Fact: RTP pay minimal attention to enforcing the traffic laws.

 

Fact: Thai roads are among the most dangerous in the world mainly due to the extreme lack of driving skills of it's drivers.

 

These facts aren't just "my opinion". When I look in the mirror, I see someone who has driven for most of his life in a country where it takes months of training, an hour long driving test, on public roads to obtain a driving licence, the police rigourously enforce traffic laws and the average driver doesn't suffer from "face".

 

Road deaths per 100,000 (2018). Thailand= 32.7,  UK= 3.1.

Every issue you have raised has been addressed - yet you have no argument only gainsay and ad hominem.

You have nothing whatsoever to support your supposition in fact your understanding is so poor, you aren't even arguing with what I've posted.

 

You also need to learn a bit about critical thinking and what is or isn't fact.

 

it isn't whether or not Thai road safety is appalling, it is why - and although a lot of th reasons why have been laid out above you appear not to have understood or read a single word.

 

It is a symptom of the debate on road safety amongst expats etc that many ae prepared to wade in with what they consider is an "opinion" (it isn't) without any real knowledge of the situation whatsoever.

[kekalot]

I get into a situation almost the same as the OP every time I drive for more than 20 minutes on the highway.

 

so I used to mostly drive on the left lane only

 

but then this happened hundreds of times by now that a gas station is close and less than 100 meters before the station a vehicle will pass in the middle lane (right of me) at 120-150, then immediately cut right in front of me in the left lane AND brake in my face to make the left turn to stop at the gas station.

 

this instead of going behind me in the left lane, slowing down, using turn signals.

 

now when I do drive the motorbike, I drive in the middle lane when nearing a gas station

 

but then another problem surfaces, those idiots with the black SUVs or the minivans coming behind your motorbike at 140 km/h and honking their horn for you to "get the F out of the way" instead of just using the fast lane like they absolutely can 95% of the time.

 

the only crash I have ever had here was 2 ladies up on a motorbike riding slow as hell on left lane during peak traffic (full 3 lanes) and she out of nowhere turned left right in my front wheel while I was trying to pass her on the shoulder which was clear.

she used no brakes, no signal light, they had no helmets and it turns out no license or insurance.. guess who had to cover everything including some tea money for the police to take my bike in hostage..

Edited December 4, 2019 by kekalot

[kingofthemountain]

3 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

As has been said there is no real way to support your claims as there is little or no scientific analysis of RTAs in Thailand.

Again your comments are largely assumption and prejudice - as indicated by your derogatory name for the people of Thailand

i am not agree at all with you 

but as i have already posted i am not going

to waste my time to argue with you

i have enough experience to know when it is. for some obvious reasons, totaly useless.

 

And for your last sentence about my asumptions and the use of a derogatory name

it's funny to read your post nr 124 in this topic just 2 hours ago

''But I'm not sure they actually have trained road engineers/designers in Thailand! I get the impression that any Tom, Dick or Harry may get the job.''

Sound like some asumptions here and the use of a derogatory name for western people. 

 

You are probably in Thailand since too long now to have enough perspective on

yourself, but mai pen rai

 

Have a nice day

Edited December 4, 2019 by kingofthemountain

[Pattaya46]

3 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

- Riding a motorcycle is 16x more dangerous in Thailand than in the USA,

That's false, or at least means nothing. You totally ignore the fact that there are far more motorcycle by 100'000 people in Thailand than in USA.

[kingofthemountain]

2 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Definitely agree - the road design and engineering in the UK, i.e. position of lanes, junctions, intersections, traffic calming measures, positioning of signs, placement of joining and departing lanes etc all play a major contribution towards road safety in the UK. Most drivers are blissfully unaware of how they are 'guided' by the road into a safer automotive environment. 

 

Road engineers and designers in Thailand on the other hand do tend to 'throw' a junction wherever they please with a degree of inconsistencies which lends to hesitation and accidents. 

You are partially right but you have totaly missed in your post

the role and the importance of the police and the laws and rules enforcements

in the general road safety

[kingofthemountain]

As everybody here (Except 2 or 3 in denial) have posted

from my 40 years of driving experience (10 in Thailand) i can summarize the situation in 1 sentence

in western countries the driving is often a pleasure, in Thailand it's most of the time an ordeal

 

 

Edited December 4, 2019 by kingofthemountain

[Airbagwill]

34 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

it's funny to read your post nr 124 in this topic just 2 hours ago

''But I'm not sure they actually have trained road engineers/designers in Thailand! I get the impression that any Tom, Dick or Harry may get the job.''

Sound like some asumptions here and the use of a derogatory name for western people. 

 

THat is a genuine concern - I don't call Thai people by derogatory racist names.

[Airbagwill]

6 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

As everybody here (Except 2 or 3 in denial) have posted

from my 40 years of driving experience (10 in Thailand) i can summarize the situation in 1 sentence

in western countries the driving is often a pleasure, in Thailand it's most of the time an ordeal

 

 

I have more driving experience than you both in ad out of Thailand - however this counts for nothing if you haven't the background knowledge to understand and analyse what is happening on the roads of Thailand.

Like I said, everyone who drives a car or truck thinks they're an expert on road safety. 

[transam]

We have all heard of the Thai "face" thing, well I am sure it is alive and well on the Thai roads too.

Must be in front, don't give way to anyone, he's got a better car than me, take no notice of pedestrian crossings, can't stop at a red light, the list goes on and on.

 

A mindset that they are more important than any other. Even if they did have better driving tests the situation would stay the same...????

[kingofthemountain]

2 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

I have more driving experience than you both in ad out of Thailand - however this counts for nothing if you haven't the background knowledge to understand and analyse what is happening on the roads of Thailand.

Like I said, everyone who drives a car or truck thinks they're an expert on road safety. 

Yes i am sure everybody here is perfectly aware that the only expert is you

[kingofthemountain]

6 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

I have more driving experience than you both in ad out of Thailand - however this counts for nothing if you haven't the background knowledge to understand and analyse what is happening on the roads of Thailand.

At your very advanced age it should be more safe to stop to drive

even if you understand much more better than the others.

Edited December 4, 2019 by kingofthemountain

[kingofthemountain]

9 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

THat is a genuine concern - I don't call Thai people by derogatory racist names.

I am surprising that someone with your superior intelligence and high knowledge

don't know Somchai is one of the most used name in Thailand, so nothing racist here

just a common name like ''Joe'' for western people.

Anyway i am suspicious with someone who brings the debate on this ground

usualy because they are short in answers. for me and for your information there is

only one human race, with the same proportion of idiots everywhere, so personally

i negate the notion of racism.

[richard_smith237]

14 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

29 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

THat is a genuine concern - I don't call Thai people by derogatory racist names.

I am surprising that someone with your superior intelligence and high knowledge

don't know Somchai is one of the most used name in Thailand, so nothing racist here

just a common name like ''Joe'' for western people.

Anyway i am suspicious with someone who brings the debate on this ground

usualy because they are short in answers. for me and for your information there is

only one human race, with the same proportion of idiots everywhere, so personally

i negate the notion of racism.

 

Thats a rather desperate 'back-pedal' the very nature of your comment and use of 'somchai' was without doubt derogatory towards Thai's in general. 

 

Very rarely is 'Somchai' used to describe Thai's in a general light much like we would use 'Joe-Bloggs' in the West, or even 'Tom, Dick and Harry' to describe 'anybody and everybody'.

Somchai is used almost universally to describe a 'hapless, feckless often toothless grinning local gent of poor means and below average intelligence' you know this which is why you used 'Somchai' to highlight an element of stupidity.

[kingofthemountain]

15 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Thats a rather desperate 'back-pedal' the very nature of your comment and use of 'somchai' was without doubt derogatory towards Thai's in general. 

 

Very rarely is 'Somchai' used to describe Thai's in a general light much like we would use 'Joe-Bloggs' in the West, or even 'Tom, Dick and Harry' to describe 'anybody and everybody'.

Somchai is used almost universally to describe a 'hapless, feckless often toothless grinning local gent of poor means and below average intelligence' you know this which is why you used 'Somchai' to highlight an element of stupidity.

It's pure asumption from your part

and honestly a very poor comment.

I am personaly shocked by the sense you give at the use of Somchai

and you describe it as ''universally'' and honestly it's the first time i see it (Including on

this forum where the name is often used but not in the trash way you describe)

Usualy it's used to dscribe a Thai male in general, and it was the only way here for me.

Anyway you don't know me, so if you want really to know if i am racist or not i invite you

to share a day of my life and see how i live among the Thais, with my thai girlfriend.

 

Wait, finaly no, i not invite you, I am sure you have much more to share

with your ''friend'' Airbagwill (Even if i doubt he invites you or anybody else)

as i said nothing to do with racism, i just prefer to avoid a certain % of persons present everywhere all around the world, particularly now that i have the choice to do it.

Have a nice day

Edited December 4, 2019 by kingofthemountain

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, Pattaya46 said:

4 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

- Riding a motorcycle is 16x more dangerous in Thailand than in the USA,

That's false, or at least means nothing. You totally ignore the fact that there are far more motorcycle by 100'000 people in Thailand than in USA.

 

Did I? I now can't ignore the fact that you didn't read the whole post. 

 

4 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Inaccuracy of statistics:

With all of the above noted, what these statistics do not account for is distance covered. 

For a RTA stat to be truly representative it needs to be on a basis of Per 100,000 people per xx KM driven / ridden. 

I would hazard a guess that if the information were out there to also include distance driven we would have a more comparable statistic, perhaps bringing the death rate for cars (4 wheeled vehicles) to be quite similar between Thailand and the USA and also one which is more damning for Thailands motorcycle statistics. 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

2 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

And of course, as in your post, your opinion is right and everyone else's is wrong.

 

Fact: Thailand has one of the highest annual number of road deaths (per 100,000) in the world.

 

Fact: The Thai driving test is cursary at best.

 

Fact: RTP pay minimal attention to enforcing the traffic laws.

 

Fact: Thai roads are among the most dangerous in the world mainly due to the extreme lack of driving skills of it's drivers.

 

These facts aren't just "my opinion". When I look in the mirror, I see someone who has driven for most of his life in a country where it takes months of training, an hour long driving test, on public roads to obtain a driving licence, the police rigourously enforce traffic laws and the average driver doesn't suffer from "face".

 

Road deaths per 100,000 (2018). Thailand= 32.7,  UK= 3.1.

100% agree on the primary facts you mentioned and much of what everyone else has written which highlights how much of a multifaceted issue this is. 

 

The statistics are damning whichever way they can be looked at or manipulated. However, they can also be 'softened' to more appropriately represent 'us' on the roads. 

 

Most of the Motorcycle fatalities involve youngsters (16-26yrs olds), alcohol, speeding, no helmets, running lights, racing etc.. by filtering out these stats we would still be left with poor stats, however, perhaps less damning and more representative of the true risk we face on the roads in Thailand. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DannyCarlton]

54 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Most of the Motorcycle fatalities involve youngsters (16-26yrs olds), alcohol, speeding, no helmets, running lights, racing etc.. by filtering out these stats we would still be left with poor stats, however, perhaps less damning and more representative of the true risk we face on the roads in Thailand. 

Many of the alternative stats just aren't available for Thailand. "Most of the Motorcycle fatalities involve youngsters (16-26yrs olds), alcohol, speeding, no helmets, running lights, racing etc." are symptoms of Thai's total disregard for road safety, not causes. No need to filter them out when looking for root causes. Whatever stats you use for road safety in Thailand the stats are damning. e.g. Road fatalities per 100,000 motor vehicles: Thailand= 60.2, UK=3.4. Twice as damning as the stat for road deaths per 100,000 people.

 

We all know that Thailand's roads are amongst the unsafest in the world by whatever statistics you use. If you know otherwise, please quote the stats with links. Otherwise all you have is a straw man argument. Yes factors such as road design play a part, but by far the biggest factor is the abilities and mentality of the person behind the wheel.

 

You have been shown that, the total inadequacy of the Thai driving test, the rudimentary levels of law enforcement and the adolescent mentality of the average Thai man, are the real root causes.

 

Yourself and the extremely rude, patronising and baseless to the point of trolling, @Airbagwill  both have a history on this forum as "Thai apologists". By all means continue to reside in Thailand with your heads buried deep in the sand but don't expect sane and sensible expats to do the same.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2019 by DannyCarlton

[richard_smith237]

3 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

Many of the alternative stats just aren't available for Thailand. "Most of the Motorcycle fatalities involve youngsters (16-26yrs olds), alcohol, speeding, no helmets, running lights, racing etc." are symptoms of Thai's total disregard for road safety, not causes. No need to filter them out when looking for root causes. Whatever stats you use for road safety in Thailand the stats are damning. e.g. Road fatalities per 100,000 motor vehicles: Thailand= 60.2, UK=3.4. Twice as damning as the stat for road deaths per 100,000 people.

 

We all know that Thailand's roads are amongst the unsafest in the world by whatever statistics you use. If you know otherwise, please quote the stats with links. Otherwise all you have is a straw man argument. Yes factors such as road design play a part, but by far the biggest factor is the abilities and mentality of the person behind the wheel.

 

You have been shown that, the total inadequacy of the Thai driving test, the rudimentary levels of law enforcement and the adolescent mentality of the average Thai man, are the real root causes.

 

Yourself and the extremely rude, patronising and baseless to the point of trolling, @Airbagwill  both have a history on this forum as "Thai apologists". By all means continue to reside in Thailand with your heads buried deep in the sand but don't expect sane and sensible expats to do the same.

 

 

Well I've agreed with you but you've still managed to form an argument disagreeing with someone who's agreed with you and call them (me) a Thai Apologist.

 

Read my comments again and then consider, if (when) you ride a motorcycle in Thailand are you in the same risk group as those 16-26 year olds who ride at night, speeding, without a helmet, while drunk, running lights etc.

 

The statistics are highly damning and true of the population in aggregate, but when singled out, you, I and most others we know do not face that same risk for no other reason than our road behavior is better.

 

In much the same manner my Son (restrained in his car seat) does not face the same risk as a child on a motorcycle without a helmet, or a child in a car without a car seat.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Airbagwill]

Here is a beer mat calculation to illustrate your chances of dying in a 4 wheeled private vehicle including WHO stat estimates using the highest figure per 100k for Thailand......36 per 100k.

 

Thai 4-wheeled private vehicles...13% of 36 = 4.68 (@36 Per 100,000)

 

In USA about 40% are 4 wheeled private vehicles

 

@ 12.4 per 100k.= 40% of 12.4 = 4.96

 

This would suggest that in Thailand you are in fact slightly SAFER than in the USA.

This is of course only using the stat most commonly used on TV and other media. 

Using the full but incomplete range offered by WHO, Thailand drops down to around 100th in the road death league.

 

The problem is that the westerners' and authorities apparently race-based obssession that Thai people are inherently bad drivers is not even relevant to road safety ...so long as people confuse driving and road safety as one and the same, they will fail to understand and therefore address the problem.

hence the success of countries that have adopted "safety system" schemes.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Airbagwill

[macahoom]

5 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

Here is a beer mat calculation to illustrate your chances of dying in a 4 wheeled private vehicle including WHO stat estimates using the highest figure per 100k for Thailand......36 per 100k.

 

Thai 4-wheeled private vehicles...13% of 36 = 4.68 (@36 Per 100,000)

 

In USA about 40% are 4 wheeled private vehicles

 

@ 12.4 per 100k.= 40% of 12.4 = 4.96

 

This would suggest that in Thailand you are in fact slightly SAFER than in the USA.

This is of course only using the stat most commonly used on TV and other media. 

Using the full but incomplete range offered by WHO, Thailand drops down to around 100th in the road death league.

 

The problem is that the westerners' and authorities apparently race-based obssession that Thai people are inherently bad drivers is not even relevant to road safety ...so long as people confuse driving and road safety as one and the same, they will fail to understand and therefore address the problem.

hence the success of countries that have adopted "safety system" schemes.

 

 

 

I'm surprised no one has pulled you up on this:

 

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that 13% of vehicles on Thai roads are four wheeled and privately owned. Using this statistic, you then bafflingly conclude that 13% of people killed on the roads are travelling in four wheeled, privately owned vehicles.  

 

Talk about flawed logic!