I so fed up with stupid dangerous drivers

[GarryP]

On 12/4/2019 at 2:05 PM, lagavulin1 said:

I actually thought that the quality was improving despite my expectations of carnage due to the bigger bikes on the roads. My near death experiences seemed to be declining. I was wrong. Then came the food delivery drivers! 

Yes, the Food Panda, Grab, Line Man etc. are definitely something to watch out for. Riding at ridiculous speeds, weaving between traffic and shooting out of side streets like they are taking part in some crazy action movie.  

[Airbagwill]

Try this for size....the number of COLLISIONS AND CRASHES in UK and Thailand are about the same.

So why the discrepancies in deaths?

[GarryP]

13 hours ago, mike787 said:

just drive like they do...can't beat them, join them!

Or knock 'em down.

[GarryP]

57 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

Try this for size....the number of COLLISIONS AND CRASHES in UK and Thailand are about the same.

So why the discrepancies in deaths?

Emergency services have a big part to play in this. 

[Airbagwill]

3 hours ago, GarryP said:

Emergency services have a big part to play in this. 

The situation is ROAD SAFETY - not just driving. It is quite clear that collisions happen all over the world - we also know what human error actually is and so one has to conclude that it is the severity of accidents and what happens AFTER that is in fact crucial to the death rate - for instance the positioning/planiting of trees etc next to roads and in the middle of the older dual catriageways. Once a vehicle has lost control, the occupants in Thailand are at a much higher risk than in Europe.

As you say the emergency services have to take a major slice of the action ere - in Thailand that are inconsistent, under-trained and under-equipped. .....and when you get to an A&E - after a much longer wait than in EU, the treatment you get will be a lottery, maybe even moving you form one hospital to another, depending on insurance or hospital facilities.

Also vehicle design, road design. road engineering and emergency services are factors all ignored by those who simplistically think that Thai people are a "race" of idiot drivers - they are just barking up the wrong tree, along with the Thai authorities who also don't have the vaguest idea of what road safety entails.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Airbagwill

[rech]

On 12/2/2019 at 7:55 PM, Bournville said:

Yeh. This is nothing new. Just a rant. But for gosh sakes... Generally speaking Thai drivers of any motorized vehicle have sh$t for brains!

 

and what about foreigners riding a motorbike in this country, then keep complaining ?

 

????

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

10 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

On 12/8/2019 at 8:32 PM, richard_smith237 said:

 

IF everyone who drives from the Airport to their home and sees fewer incidents in The UK than on the equivalent journey in Thailand, is this still confirmation bias?

 

Is it also confirmation bias is Thailands roads are more dangerous and more silly stuff does actually happen here?... or is it just confirmation, even if it is anecdotal?

 

I think you need to understand confirmation bias.

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence especially when dealing in large numbers.

 

 

In any one day in Thailand I see more 'dangerous driving' and more 'near misses' than I do in any one day when driving in the UK. 

 

My notion that it is more dangerous to ride a motorcycle in Thailand than the UK is based on observations of driving here for many years and not based on some 'racially motivated' negative bias of Thai's driving. 

 

Equally so, the bulk road fatality statistics (used earlier post #122 I think) suggest that driving a car in Thailand is safer than driving a car in the USA, given that other factors are not included in these bulk stats the suggestion was that driving a car in Thailand is a similarly risky endeavor to driving a car in the US. 

 

The same statistical analysis would suggest the UK is still safer than Thailand to drive a car. 

 

That I see more near misses and dangerous driving in Thailand than the UK also backs this up - this could be confirmation bias, or it could just be correct that there are more near misses and examples of dangerous driving in Thailand than in the UK. 

 

Are Thai's worse or better drivers? Place a Thai in the UK with the same UK driving education and sense of road safety through their UK upbringing and there would be no difference whatsoever. 

Place a British person in Thailand, give the British Person the same upbringing and driving education, sense of road safety etc as a Thai and again, there would be no difference. 

 

In fact we see many foreigners taking the same risks as Thai's on Thailands roads because of the lack of enforcement. I break more traffic rules in Thailand than I would in the UK because the enforcement and fines are stronger in the UK. 

 

This all contributes to Thailands roads being more dangerous - Conformation Bias? possibly, but is it bias if it's true?

 

Anecdotal evidence may not be meaningful evidence when regarding aggregate comparison, but that does not make all anecdotal evidence inaccurate.

 

I see more dangerous incidents on Thailands roads than I do on Britains Roads - ergo Thailand is a more dangerous place to drive. Call it confirmation bias or common sense, I don't think it's wrong. 

 

My point throughout this whole topic has been that Thailands roads are more dangerous than in the West, but not as dangerous as the statics suggest when evaluated on personal risk per mode of transport and certainly not sufficiently dangerous enough to prevent me from enjoying driving a car and riding a motorcycle here (in Bangkok).

 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

6 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

The situation is ROAD SAFETY - not just driving. It is quite clear that collisions happen all over the world - we also know what human error actually is and so one has to conclude that it is the severity of accidents and what happens AFTER that is in fact crucial to the death rate - for instance the positioning/planiting of trees etc next to roads and in the middle of the older dual catriageways. Once a vehicle has lost control, the occupants in Thailand are at a much higher risk than in Europe.

As you say the emergency services have to take a major slice of the action ere - in Thailand that are inconsistent, under-trained and under-equipped. .....and when you get to an A&E - after a much longer wait than in EU, the treatment you get will be a lottery, maybe even moving you form one hospital to another, depending on insurance or hospital facilities.

Also vehicle design, road design. road engineering and emergency services are factors all ignored by those who simplistically think that Thai people are a "race" of idiot drivers - they are just barking up the wrong tree, along with the Thai authorities who also don't have the vaguest idea of what road safety entails.

 

It would be interesting to see the statistics outlining: 

 

- Number of accidents (collisions) per 100,000 km driven (in 4 wheeled vehicles)

- Number of accidents (collisions) per 100,000 people (in 4 wheeled vehicles)

- Number of accidents (collisions) per 100,000 vehicles (4 wheeled)

 

For USA, Thailand and the UK (just to start with). 

 

As you have mentioned, the issue is far more complex and multifaceted than simply improving driver education and better policing. 

 

 

[Airbagwill]

4 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

It would be interesting to see the statistics outlining: 

 

- Number of accidents (collisions) per 100,000 km driven (in 4 wheeled vehicles)

- Number of accidents (collisions) per 100,000 people (in 4 wheeled vehicles)

- Number of accidents (collisions) per 100,000 vehicles (4 wheeled)

 

For USA, Thailand and the UK (just to start with). 

 

As you have mentioned, the issue is far more complex and multifaceted than simply improving driver education and better policing. 

 

 

These statistics are avaulabl3 in direct proportion to road death rates.

In the UK every accident stat is readily available ...in the USA they are their but the situation is muddied by different state systems and in Thailand the best is often educated guesswork.

Worth noting that USA mileages are much higher than most.

Most accidents occur less than 10km from home,

[spiekerjozef]

Bikers...... think they own the road

[SkyNets]

Driven here for over 11 years, seen a lot of crazy things. I think it comes down to spatial awareness, you can see it when walking in a crowd here too. Something at a genetic level? going from farm lands/jungle to densely populated areas maybe takes a few generations. I still can’t believe it when I see a motorbike pull out of a side street and not even look for oncoming traffic.

[VocalNeal]

1 hour ago, SkyNets said:

I still can’t believe it when I see a motorbike pull out of a side street and not even look for oncoming traffic.

 

Hmmmm? Isn't there something about traffic on the right giving way?

 

As we all know this, isn't it called normal?

Edited December 10, 2019 by VocalNeal

[SkyNets]

1 hour ago, VocalNeal said:

Hmmmm? Isn't there something about traffic on the right giving way?

 

As we all know this, isn't it called normal?

Hmm, I meant on coming traffic from the same lane/direction as the bike/car is pulling into from a side street

Edited December 10, 2019 by SkyNets

[VocalNeal]

8 minutes ago, SkyNets said:

Hmm, I meant on coming traffic from the same lane/direction as the bike/car is pulling into from a side street

 

So pulling out from a side street into a main street? Ie turning left? 

[spidermike007]

When I was growing up, we took drivers education courses. They showed us horrendous films, or semi trucks plowing into cars, and literally obliterating everything in their path. They also showed us graphic images of head on collisions. 120mph impacts. Even as a young kid, it made quite an impression. It was horrific, and it was hard to get those images out of your head afterwards. But, it left a lasting impression, and when I started driving, I understood it was serious business, and that it was a very dangerous thing to do.

 

I see people driving here, with their families in the car, and doing things, and taking the kinds of risks no rational or sane person with common sense would do. What for? To gain one minute? Why take those risks? What is the logic? Often, when I am cruising along at 100kph, someone cuts right in front of me. Or someone comes out from the side road, right in front of me. I have to slam on my brakes, or change lanes to avoid him. I look in my rearview mirror, and there is nobody behind me. So, if he had waited two seconds, he would have had completely safe passage onto the highway. What gives? Where is the intelligence, caution, and prudence? Where is the common sense? What about just the survival instinct? 

[Airbagwill]

1 hour ago, VocalNeal said:

Hmmmm? Isn't there something about traffic on the right giving way?

 

As we all know this, isn't it called normal?

 

1 hour ago, VocalNeal said:

Hmmmm? Isn't there something about traffic on the right giving way?

 

As we all know this, isn't it called normal?

Read your Highway Code - the left has priority by default on Thai roads.

[VocalNeal]

30 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

 

Read your Highway Code - the left has priority by default on Thai roads.

Yes exactly a guy coming out of a side-road turning left into the main road has priority. The vehicle on the right has to give way. So normal here. 

 

The only thing that irks me is the scooters trying to turn left between me and the kerb/curb when I am turning left. I just ignore them and carry on.

Edited December 10, 2019 by VocalNeal

[richard_smith237]

29 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

58 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

 

Read your Highway Code - the left has priority by default on Thai roads.

Yes exactly a guy coming out of a side-road turning left into the main road has priority. The vehicle on the right has to give way. So normal here. 

 

The only thing that irks me is the scooters trying to turn left between me and the kerb/curb when I am turning left. I just ignore them and carry on.

 

Apologies gents but that is completely wrong and a commonly miss-understood and miss-quoted myth amongst expat drivers in Thailand. 

 

A vehicle exiting a side road on the left does not have right of way at all. 

 

The Vehicle entering from the left only has right of way on roads of 'equal status' and only when both vehicles arrive at a junction simultaneously and when a principle roadway is not marked 

i.e. at crossroads in many provincial towns across Thailand. Most crossroads will still have a line and 'stop sign' indicating both vehicles have to stop, before entering the junction, precedence in this case should be given to the vehicle on the left. 

 

Every vehicle has to give way to another vehicle traveling along a road of 'higher status' i.e. the Vehicles turning off the minor-road (side road) onto the Principle roadway still has to give way to other cars on that road (i.e. give way to the right). 

 

Vehicles also have to give way to the right on traffic roundabouts. 

 

Quote

Title 6: Driving through Junctions or Circles

Section 71 (500B)
[If, when entering a junction, there are other vehicles, the driver must let such vehicles go through first.

If two vehicles enter a junction from different directions at the same time, the vehicle on the left side has a right of way, except when there's a designation of principle roadway in which case the vehicle on the principle roadway has a right of way.]
 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by richard_smith237

[SkyNets]

Sorry was not on about a Junction or roundabout, more like this but coming out from a sidestreet. Guess we are all right ????

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

31 minutes ago, SkyNets said:

Sorry was not on about a Junction or roundabout, more like this but coming out from a sidestreet. Guess we are all right ????

 

 

 

 

An example of absolute mindlessness, combined with stupidity and carelessness.

 

And just when we think things can't get any more idiotic the Pickup-van comes along with healthy does of pure and utter fvckwittery.

 

---------- 

On the 'Give way to the left' debate: 

 

The person entering the main / primary / principle roadway has to stop and give way to traffic traveling along the main / primary / principle roadway. 

 

The person riding along the principle road way does not have to give way to someone entering from the left from a minor roadway (side road). 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by richard_smith237

[Airbagwill]

6 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

A vehicle exiting a side road on the left does not have right of way at all. 

Sadly it does!

[Airbagwill]

4 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

The person riding along the principle road way does not have to give way to someone entering from the left from a minor roadway (side road). 

There is no designation of primary roadway - expats are making an assumption here.

[Airbagwill]

"[A principle roadway is announced by the traffic officer and installed with indicative traffic signs.]" Thai driving laws

 

Similar systems exist in Netherlands and France but they of course are clearly signed

 

NB - "pulled out IN FRONT OF ME"..........the other driver got there first!

On most roads priority is from the left.

On roundabouts, priority is from the right.

 

"Section 71 (500B)

[If, when entering a junction, there are other vehicles, the driver must let such vehicles go

through first.

If two vehicles enter a junction from different directions at the same time, the vehicle on

the left side has a right of way, except when there's a designation of "principle roadway" in

which case the vehicle on the principle roadway has a right of way.]

 

“Section 71 (500B)

[If, when entering a junction, there are other vehicles, the driver must let such vehicles go through first.

If two vehicles enter a junction from different directions at the same time, the vehicle on the left side has a right of way, except when there's a designation of “principle roadway” in which case the vehicle on the principle roadway has a right of way.]

 

This then appears to be the law - from 2522 (1979)”

You use the expression "Equal roads" which by default in Thailand means all roads... In UK and USA we are hardwired into the concept of some roads "naturally" having priority.

In Thailand the road has to be designated.  This maybe by bylaw, sign or "competent police officer".

And this is why I keep harping on about the need to totally reform, re-engineer and re-design all the roads in Thailand. There is in fact no signage on thereafter at eye level to let motorist know if they have priority or not, by default it is to the right.

However, as you drive through a town, I'm sure you are aware of the blue Soi numbering signs on posts along the road ... take note that every now and then one of those signs actually doesn't say "Soi" it says  "Sai" ... that road definitely has priority. What your chances are of spotting this in a moving car are, I don't know.

Of course Thai motorists are aware of these conundrums and drive accordingly, but foreign motorists in their arrogance continue to drive according to the perceived "good driving practices" they learned back home.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Airbagwill

[Airbagwill]

4 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

An example of absolute mindlessness, combined with stupidity and carelessness.

 

And just when we think things can't get any more idiotic the Pickup-van comes along with healthy does of pure and utter fvckwittery.

 

---------- 

On the 'Give way to the left' debate: 

 

The person entering the main / primary / principle roadway has to stop and give way to traffic traveling along the main / primary / principle roadway. 

 

The person riding along the principle road way does not have to give way to someone entering from the left from a minor roadway (side road). 

 

 

"Side street" is a junction.

[GarryP]

1 hour ago, Airbagwill said:

There is no designation of primary roadway - expats are making an assumption here.

When I took the theory part of the driving test, in Thai language, in September 2019 ทางเอก (tang aik - primary/main road) and ทางโท (tang toe - secondary road) were mentioned repeatedly in the questions.  They are also mentioned repeatedly in the Road Traffic Act 2522 and its subsequent amendments.     

[richard_smith237]

2 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

There is no designation of primary roadway - expats are making an assumption here.

Wrong, they are designed with a 'stop' sign at the junction which enters the principle roadway and also with a 'give way line'....

Edited December 10, 2019 by richard_smith237

[richard_smith237]

2 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

8 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

A vehicle exiting a side road on the left does not have right of way at all. 

Sadly it does!

Airbag, you have made an excellent contribution to this thread so far - but on this you are so very very wrong - read the Thai Land Traffic Act - it specifies principle road ways and when vehicles should give way and to where etc - you have quoted it, but its seems not understood it.

 

Your comments are in direct contraction of the Land Traffic Act. 

 

 

Your assumption that 'All vehicles must give way to vehicles entering the road way from the left' is not only preposterous, its outlandishly dangerous. 

 

What you are suggesting is that when traveling along a two lane highway at 100kmh I have to come to an abrupt halt because a car wants to pull out from a minor road to the left?

 

This is wrong and is the very reason those traveling along a 'principle roadway' are given priority.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by richard_smith237

[torturedsole]

My personal gripe is Thais taking a left turn in their cars.  The approach to the junction appears normal then all of a sudden it's 'Driving Miss Daisy' and slows to 2mph.  What the hell is that about?  I suspect lack of confidence and lack of a decent driving test.  A highly dangerous manoeuvre and extremely frustrating.  If their on their bikes then it's the complete reverse.  

[torturedsole]

4 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

read the Thai Land Traffic Act

Like a Thai ever took any notice of the Traffic Act.  ????

[Airbagwill]

14 hours ago, torturedsole said:

Like a Thai ever took any notice of the Traffic Act.  ????

there is of course an element of enforcement but it is an old rule that has been ingrained in Thai road culture.