Getting More Juice.

[Formaleins]

I posted a while back about not being able to get enough current to our house from the main supply which is about 100 yards from the house right next to a step down transformer. I am not sure if it is the supply to the village that is limited or the cables to my place that are stopping us getting anywhere near 45A. Crossy mentioned to me before ( but I misunderstood) about rigging a heavier cable with 10mm pigtails at each end. I thought that he meant running two 10mm cables.

 

So, if anyone has had similar experiences (We do not have 3 phase here so not an option) I had a few thoughts about what might be possible, please chip in and tell me if it is a no no or complete stupidity, I need to check all the options.

 

1: Would it make much difference (yes it would cost a bit) to run 10mm Copper the 100 yards to our house? Would I see a significant increase in current? (We are limited on the cable CSA due to the sizes of the consumer unit inputs, 10mm is as big as it allows)

 

2: Would EGAT be willing to double up the cables? anyone had this done? two of the 10mm aluminium into a joint near the meter and consumer unit into a single 10mm?

 

3: Would EGAT joint a heavier cable with the pigtails like Crossy mentioned or would I need to do that myself (I cannot find the type of 3M jointing compounds here anyway)

 

4: How about asking EGAT to put in another meter? anyone had that done before? I thought about a second meter on 10mm aluminium cable to a separate breaker and consumer unit that was just dedicated to the heavy duty stuff like water heaters and showers and keeping the original meter for the rest of the house. Looking at our electric bill, it doesn't appear to cost anything like a standing charge for a meter, you only seem to pay for what you use.

 

We already have an "agricultural" meter - the 5A version that runs a couple of pumps for the land and if you don't use more than a certain amount, you get it free.

 

As always Gents, any helpful advice is appreciated.

[farmerjo]

Install an AVR?

 

[sometimewoodworker]

In general you will not get a second meter for a house unless it is split into 2 addresses.

[Formaleins]

3 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

In general you will not get a second meter for a house unless it is split into 2 addresses.

Yes, I was thinking that this might be a possible problem.

[Formaleins]

30 minutes ago, farmerjo said:

Install an AVR?

 

What good will that do if I cannot even get the current from my existing supply? Voltage is not the issue, it is POWER! I already have 230V that supplies about half of the 45 A, if I install an AVR I will end up with even less power. all I want is the extra Amps. as Orker says, I cannot get two meters, so how about fatter cables or upgrading to copper?

Edited December 5, 2019 by Formaleins

[tjo o tjim]

What is the voltage when you pull 90A?  Is 90A what you need?  That is where the AVR helps you, increasing current upstream and increasing voltage downstream.

[Crossy]

What is the marking on the existing cables? When you say "10mm cable" do you mean 10mm² or 10mm in diameter? Is it copper or aluminium?

 

For a 100m run @ 50A you will be looking at 25mm² copper cable.

 

What size meter do you have (5-15, 15-45, 30-100)?

 

To address your points:-

 

1. Best bang per buck to replace your cable from meter to house would be to use 35mm² (or even 50mm²) aluminium cable. It's a lot cheaper than copper. It won't fit in the consumer unit so splice a length of smaller copper onto the end (put the joint outside the house).

 

2. EGAT (actually PEA) don't do anything after the meter. That's all down to you or your contractor (who could be PEA chaps moonlighting - talk to them).

 

3. Your contractor will do the pigtails if you tell him to, otherwise he will trim stands to fit (bad practice).

 

4. If you already have a second meter you could likely get that upgraded. But if your incoming supply is bad it won't make a lot of difference.

 

What's your actual load? Can you post some voltage/current figures? Make measurements at your consumer unit incoming terminals and at the meter.

 

Have you measured the voltage at the meter? If it's going low there it's time to talk to PEA as it's their problem.

 

Can you post photos of the transformer, if you're that close to it you really shouldn't be having issues unless it's badly overloaded (PEA again).

 

Sorry if you've answered these questions before, but it's best to have all the information in one place.

[farmerjo]

He may have PEA issues.

 

You cannot compensate for stupidity. The idiots around here mess with the supply with huge welders and other juice suckers, sometimes my supply will drop to 120 Volts. Usually an idiot in the village messing with the supply. I can only hope that each time it drops below 200V one of them is getting fried. The more worrying problem is when they mess with the supply further up the village we end up getting about 150 Volts and then the water pump goes mental. It cannot push the water through and just runs and runs until it runs dry then the thermal cut outs come in. This has to be damaging it, but there is no comeback on these idiots. The other thing is if you have PC's, the sods can disrupt the supply for about 2 seconds and cause the PC's to reboot... they have crashed my PC's over and over, again, you cannot get justice and go out and hang them. (Sadly)

Edited November 20 by Formaleins

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by farmerjo

[Formaleins]

5 hours ago, Crossy said:

What is the marking on the existing cables? When you say "10mm cable" do you mean 10mm² or 10mm in diameter? Is it copper or aluminium?

 

For a 100m run @ 50A you will be looking at 25mm² copper cable.

 

What size meter do you have (5-15, 15-45, 30-100)?

 

To address your points:-

 

1. Best bang per buck to replace your cable from meter to house would be to use 35mm² (or even 50mm²) aluminium cable. It's a lot cheaper than copper. It won't fit in the consumer unit so splice a length of smaller copper onto the end (put the joint outside the house).

 

2. EGAT (actually PEA) don't do anything after the meter. That's all down to you or your contractor (who could be PEA chaps moonlighting - talk to them).

 

3. Your contractor will do the pigtails if you tell him to, otherwise he will trim stands to fit (bad practice).

 

4. If you already have a second meter you could likely get that upgraded. But if your incoming supply is bad it won't make a lot of difference.

 

What's your actual load? Can you post some voltage/current figures? Make measurements at your consumer unit incoming terminals and at the meter.

 

Have you measured the voltage at the meter? If it's going low there it's time to talk to PEA as it's their problem.

 

Can you post photos of the transformer, if you're that close to it you really shouldn't be having issues unless it's badly overloaded (PEA again).

 

Sorry if you've answered these questions before, but it's best to have all the information in one place.

Some answers for you - Meter is 15/45, cable is aluminium, there are no markings left on it (been in the sun for 15 years) it is 8 core aluminium, ( I believe it is 25mm Sq. / 750V) @ 70C total diameter inc. insulation is 9mm, the cores are 2mm diameter. - voltage at the meter is OK, voltage at the consumer unit is OK until it is loaded. Normally we are drawing about 5 Amps, it is only when we run the 8KW heater the voltage drops to about 197V. I expected that we should be drawing about 40 Amps when the heater is on along with the TV's fridges etc. but all we are getting is 26A. (so if you knock off the 5 amps background draw, the shower is only running at about 5KW.) Cheers for the help.

 

I know you said about fitting thicker cable with splices / pigtails, could I not just splice two cables together?

Edited December 6, 2019 by Formaleins

[Formaleins]

If anyone knows of a good electrical supplier in Chiang Mai or Lamphun that sells good quality cables of the sort of sizes Crossy mentioned, please give me a shout as the only cable I can find locally is the same as what I already have and if I mention copper they just laugh at me and tell me "Expensive"

[unamazedloso]

Yep, as another said "get an AVR" 

we had the same issue and had blown up aircompressors, airconditioners and water pumps and such and was told by the electric company that they aint going to be upgrading anything until more people complain. Since this we went solar anyway, best thing we did... less bills.

[Crossy]

Doubling up what you have would be a decent way to go, it would also open the door to 3-phase should it become available.

 

The cable you have does look like 25mm² Al. Add two more runs of the same stuff and link them in pairs for an equivalent 50mm²????

 

What's the voltage dip like at the meter when you fire up the water heater?

 

An AVR may be the next step after adding extra cable (which would be lowest cost option), but do read my AVR thread, you wouldn't normally run your water heater through it.

 

For the best selection of cable and wire check out SK Universal http://www.sk-wires.com/en/ they are fast delivery and their English speaking man k. Bell is most helpful.

 

[Formaleins]

2 hours ago, unamazedloso said:

Yep, as another said "get an AVR" 

we had the same issue and had blown up aircompressors, airconditioners and water pumps and such and was told by the electric company that they aint going to be upgrading anything until more people complain. Since this we went solar anyway, best thing we did... less bills.

OK thanks for that, I need to read up more on these things.

[Formaleins]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

Doubling up what you have would be a decent way to go, it would also open the door to 3-phase should it become available.

 

The cable you have does look like 25mm² Al. Add two more runs of the same stuff and link them in pairs for an equivalent 50mm²????

 

What's the voltage dip like at the meter when you fire up the water heater?

 

An AVR may be the next step after adding extra cable (which would be lowest cost option), but do read my AVR thread, you wouldn't normally run your water heater through it.

 

For the best selection of cable and wire check out SK Universal http://www.sk-wires.com/en/ they are fast delivery and their English speaking man k. Bell is most helpful.

 

I will check out the cables. My only worry is the people not understanding how to attach them - they will simply clip off enough strands to make em fit.

[Formaleins]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

Doubling up what you have would be a decent way to go, it would also open the door to 3-phase should it become available.

 

The cable you have does look like 25mm² Al. Add two more runs of the same stuff and link them in pairs for an equivalent 50mm²????

 

What's the voltage dip like at the meter when you fire up the water heater?

 

An AVR may be the next step after adding extra cable (which would be lowest cost option), but do read my AVR thread, you wouldn't normally run your water heater through it.

 

For the best selection of cable and wire check out SK Universal http://www.sk-wires.com/en/ they are fast delivery and their English speaking man k. Bell is most helpful.

 

The voltage drop at the heater is from 230V down to 197V Thanks for your help, I have contacted those guys you sent me the link to, let you know what happens. Real headache at the moment with this problem, the weather has changed and we cannot get hot enough water. After the storm that wrecked all the wiring there is just too much to do, spending days with a chainsaw trying to clear fallen trees through where our cables go, some 100 foot trees down, concrete cable posts broken like twigs and 10 foot high grass and jungle. Another 200 litres of Roundup mixture sprayed again today. All this <deleted> and having to repair chainsaws and Honda motors and pumps just to get access is getting a bit much these days for this old dog. Not to mention the snakes that have taken up residence in my breaker boxes..... open the door with a stick after the last few experiences. Not sure who is scared more, me or them, but I am not venomous and usually don't bite!

[Formaleins]

20 hours ago, tjo o tjim said:

What is the voltage when you pull 90A?  Is 90A what you need?  That is where the AVR helps you, increasing current upstream and increasing voltage downstream.

Thanks for your advice. I don't really need 90A, 45 would probably be enough, but my voltage is dropping to about 190V when I draw about 27Amps. - I will look into this though, I assumed that the AVR would just maintain voltage at a level below my supply and not be boosting anything (a bit like a regulator) so as I said in another post, I need to understand a bit more on the subject, cheers for the advice!

[farmerjo]

As Crossy said,sort your cable size 1st.

I did not do this and went straight for an AVR.

I have a 550 metre run of 25sq cable.

The AVR does the job to about 75% of my needs but with thicker cable it would do 100%.

At least with the AVR,3500 watt shower i can turn the dial to 3/4 quarters and have a red hot shower even though the incoming volts are down to 160 before AVR,air cons going and normal appliances on. 

[Formaleins]

3 minutes ago, farmerjo said:

As Crossy said,sort your cable size 1st.

I did not do this and went straight for an AVR.

I have a 550 metre run of 25sq cable.

The AVR does the job to about 75% of my needs but with thicker cable it would do 100%.

At least with the AVR,3500 watt shower i can turn the dial to 3/4 quarters and have a red hot shower even though the incoming volts are down to 160 before AVR,air cons going and normal appliances on. 

Thanks, you must be in warmer climes mate! Doi Internon was 3C last night, 4.5KW shower barely gets the water lukewarm here and given the chill factor and years of acclimatization, it feels like a dive into a frozen lake in the mornings. Cheers!

[farmerjo]

1 minute ago, Formaleins said:

Thanks, you must be in warmer climes mate! Doi Internon was 3C last night, 4.5KW shower barely gets the water lukewarm here and given the chill factor and years of acclimatization, it feels like a dive into a frozen lake in the mornings. Cheers!

Believe me it's cold here,i'm in long johns but with better power,it's not about KW of the heater,it's how it performs.

I used to have a 6000kw shower blowing fuses out of fashion and no performance.The 3500 is more than adequate if fully powered.

I am by no means an electrician other than a restricted connect/disconnect motors ticket.

 

[Formaleins]

2 minutes ago, farmerjo said:

Believe me it's cold here,i'm in long johns but with better power,it's not about KW of the heater,it's how it performs.

I used to have a 6000kw shower blowing fuses out of fashion and no performance.The 3500 is more than adequate if fully powered.

I am by no means an electrician other than a restricted connect/disconnect motors ticket.

 

Understand what you mean - I had a National 10KW heater, never needed to go above the medium setting in winter. Then I bought a Panasonic 8KW and the thing is useless,  it won't warm the water even on full blast. I even reduced the flow rate switch but it just cannot heat the water anywhere near the old 10AM National. We have an old 4.5KW (about 14 year old on 2.5mm cable on a 15 metre cable run) that heats better than this junk. Well, we will either be taking tepid showers or simply stinking if I cannot get the temps up. I just fired up a gas blowtorch in my room to try to raise the heat a bit. It must be getting cold as my son who never feels the cold has been in looking for extra blankets and asking about if Thailand sells heaters!

[tjo o tjim]

4 hours ago, farmerjo said:

As Crossy said,sort your cable size 1st.

I did not do this and went straight for an AVR.

I have a 550 metre run of 25sq cable.

If your incoming cable / lateral has more than a 3% voltage drop (5% for a very long run like yours) at normal load then it is too small.  In your case, the 25mm2 is good for about 15A, maybe 20A short durations.  You might have been able to get by with just a 100mm2 cable, but the AVR should be a better solution if your issue is just when running the shower or starting the air con.

 

The math matters on getting the best value solution.

[Crossy]

If you're down to 190V at 30A or so AT THE METER it's time to talk to the supply authority.

 

What's the voltage off-load in the middle of the night (minimum load on the network)? If it's less than 230V you could ask them to change the transformer tap to boost the voltage somewhat. Starting at a higher voltage gives a bit more headroom.

 

If you do double up the cables make the joints outside the house, no worry about a short bit of 25mm², it's not going to be overloaded.

 

It's only getting down to 18C here but it's still decidedly chilly, even the dogs are actually asking to have their coats on at night. Madam has her scarf and woolly hat on (bought in Belgium when it snowed).

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

It's only getting down to 18C here but it's still decidedly chilly, even the dogs are actually asking to have their coats on at night. Madam has her scarf and woolly hat on (bought in Belgium when it snowed).

At the moment (8 o’clock) it’s 12C outside and 18C in the house, got to love double glazing and AAC,

 

SWMBO’s mum’s wearing the hat and a very thick down jacket that’s too hot for me until it gets down to about -5C but was just too good to throw out.

[Formaleins]

12 hours ago, Crossy said:

If you're down to 190V at 30A or so AT THE METER it's time to talk to the supply authority.

 

What's the voltage off-load in the middle of the night (minimum load on the network)? If it's less than 230V you could ask them to change the transformer tap to boost the voltage somewhat. Starting at a higher voltage gives a bit more headroom.

 

If you do double up the cables make the joints outside the house, no worry about a short bit of 25mm², it's not going to be overloaded.

 

It's only getting down to 18C here but it's still decidedly chilly, even the dogs are actually asking to have their coats on at night. Madam has her scarf and woolly hat on (bought in Belgium when it snowed).

No, the meter end is OK, the 190V is at the CU. Anyway, I have spent the day again in the jungle, cutting down trees and clearing a way through. I managed to hand dig and set 4 new poles for the cables. I contacted those guys you recommended and they are really good, Thanks! I have ordered 2 x 100m of the 50mm Sq. cable from what appears to be a rather "Fascist" brand called "Fuhrer" - Obviously a leader in cables as well as other things.  About 4.5K Baht with maybe a little over for delivery, but if it solves the problem it is money well spent. I would certainly prefer to pay for this than spend another 2 days out in the wilds trying to sort out existing cables whilst been eaten alive by ants.

 

One last question for you if you don't mind - What would be the most likely problem I would get if I can only get a 3rd rate Sompong to fit the 50mm cables and he clips the internal cores rather than does a proper joint? Is it a big problem or just not a good thing to do? (bearing in mind most Thai electrical work is usually "Not a good thing to do" in the first place.

 

Many thanks gentlemen for all of your advice and suggestions, it is extremely appreciated, and tonight I am going to read up on AVR's! Thanks.

[Formaleins]

10 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

At the moment (8 o’clock) it’s 12C outside and 18C in the house, got to love double glazing and AAC,

 

SWMBO’s mum’s wearing the hat and a very thick down jacket that’s too hot for me until it gets down to about -5C but was just too good to throw out.

1 C on the mountains last night and forecast to get colder over the next few days. I have my pom pom hat on and a pair of socks and a warm fleece jacket. Wouldn't want to be out on a motorbike tonight that is for sure. It is amazing how your body changes regarding temperatures. I spent my first 30 years in the cold North of England and the next 10 in the Bavarian Alps and Northern China, I must be getting soft in my old age. Hell, this is actually T-shirt weather for Newcastle! a summers day almost, another 5 degrees and we would be off to the coast and swimming in the North Sea thinking we were in the Bahamas!

[bankruatsteve]

1 hour ago, Formaleins said:

One last question for you if you don't mind - What would be the most likely problem I would get if I can only get a 3rd rate Sompong to fit the 50mm cables and he clips the internal cores rather than does a proper joint? Is it a big problem or just not a good thing to do? (bearing in mind most Thai electrical work is usually "Not a good thing to do" in the first place.

The most likely problem would be arcing between the cuts.  Maybe not happen but best to not have the potential.

[Crossy]

If your man can't get proper cable reducer crimps then simply bolting two regular cable lugs together followed by heatshrink or jointers tape would be a decent solution.

 

As noted earlier I would keep any joints outside the house, if it's going to fizz best it fizzes outside.

 

 

 

https://www.powerandcables.com/product/product-category/3m-scotch-23-tape/

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Formaleins]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

If your man can't get proper cable reducer crimps then simply bolting two regular cable lugs together followed by heatshrink or jointers tape would be a decent solution.

 

As noted earlier I would keep any joints outside the house, if it's going to fizz best it fizzes outside.

 

 

 

https://www.powerandcables.com/product/product-category/3m-scotch-23-tape/

 

 

 

 

 

 

Many thanks for all your help! I owe you more than just a few beers by now I reckon.

[Formaleins]

Well Gentlemen,

I sweated and bled over the last few days, put in 5 new electric poles and today finally got 4 runs of cable, 25mmSQ, 2x25mm for the live and 2 x 25mm for the neutral - Turned out to be 120Metres and not 100 so I had to make a second joint. Amazed to find joints and the amalgamating tape, 3M tape too! (All local)

So after all of that, seems I am not that much further forward. The heater is definitely warmer, but not like a kettle or cup of tea. The load has increased only by about 2 Amps from what it was with the single 25mm cable. So I think it is probably a supply problem from PEA/EGAT.

 

Maxed out tonight at about 28 Amps.

 

Maybe time to look at an AVR? But from what I can tell they are more of a voltage regulator and the ones I have seen max out at 8KW.

 

A Thai electrician (on his mother's side) mentioned some sort of box that can be attached to the line, unfortunately I could not understand exactly what he meant, but he said it was called a "STEP" - costing around 3-4K Baht. Any ideas? 

 

To me though, it seems as if it is a waste of time, you can juggle Volts / Amps etc. but if the power isn't there in the first place then you can not create energy out of thin air.

 

Cheers, been a really fun day with this....NOT! You would not believe how much I laughed and rolled around in hysterics after making the final two joints with all the amalgamating tape and then the insulating tape, when my wife, who watched the entire process, asked me why I had joined the new supply back to the cables from the old supply instead of joining them to the cables going into the house...oh the hilarity, luckily I had nothing heavy in my hand at the time and I also had bought an extra roll of tape.

 

Stood there watching me make a total F#C* up for 20 minutes and said nothing until I stretched the last inch of tape on the joints. - Would they do the same if you were filling your Diesel Truck with 95? Probably.

 

As a consolation though, the old cables were definitely past there sell buy - They were chipped and damaged all over the place with bare aluminium visible in about 5 or 6 places, plus the had snapped in 4 places and been rejoined by a magical Thai "Twist of the wrist" so they did need replacing.

 

I am thinking of keeping them nice and tight and above the new cables to act as a shock absorber for when the wind decides to snap yet another teak tree.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Formaleins

[farmerjo]

1 hour ago, Formaleins said:

Maybe time to look at an AVR? But from what I can tell they are more of a voltage regulator and the ones I have seen max out at 8KW.

 

A Thai electrician (on his mother's side) mentioned some sort of box that can be attached to the line, unfortunately I could not understand exactly what he meant, but he said it was called a "STEP" - costing around 3-4K Baht. Any ideas? 

 

To me though, it seems as if it is a waste of time, you can juggle Volts / Amps etc. but if the power isn't there in the first place then you can not create energy out of thin air.

The power comes from somewhere,would not be without my AVR now i have one.

Now your cables are thicker the rating of the AVR can be smaller.

Will dig up an old thread for you and post here.