Thai Domestic Electrical Work.

[elkangorito]

The devices used to join wires are generally called 'connectors' or 'BP connectors'. See the attached picture.

Nah, we don't use those bodges

Get proper BS standard joint or junction boxes from MK. Maintain the integrity of the jacket, no exposed conductors

I'll find a photo, remember in the UK we run TPS naked under floors and in ceilings, no conduit required on domestic installations

Obviously either is 1000000 times better than the "twist the wires and tape" method.

I beg your bloody pardon Crossy. They are not 'bodges' (bodgy in Australian).

Actually, they are only used in conjunction with an appropriate J-box, so no bare cable is exposed.

Are you saying that Australian electrical standards are crap, considering that Australia has basically adopted the IEC regs & fine tuned them to Australian requirements?

[Crossy]

Are you saying that Australian electrical standards are crap, considering that Australia has basically adopted the IEC regs & fine tuned them to Australian requirements?

555 Thought that might provoke a reaction

Of course not (as you well know mate) :D

Trouble is (as you also know) in our wonderful adopted country the BP's (if they get used at all) don't get the benefit of the J-Box

[paulsmithson]

yeah polarity is of concern I think ( not an electrician but am handy) especially if y0u are using a MEN link.

Thai installations are supposed to have had an earth for over two years now but not many domestic installations do.

if using a thai three pin plug then surely a fuse is incorporated(?) and should be on the live side??? Is this so?

[elkangorito]

yeah polarity is of concern I think ( not an electrician but am handy) especially if y0u are using a MEN link.

Thai installations are supposed to have had an earth for over two years now but not many domestic installations do.

if using a thai three pin plug then surely a fuse is incorporated(?) and should be on the live side??? Is this so?

Hi Paul.

You'll find a discussion about these things through the below link;

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...amp;hl=electric

[Crossy]

yeah polarity is of concern I think ( not an electrician but am handy) especially if y0u are using a MEN link.

Thai installations are supposed to have had an earth for over two years now but not many domestic installations do.

if using a thai three pin plug then surely a fuse is incorporated(?) and should be on the live side??? Is this so?

No fused plugs here unlike the UK. Outlets are protected by a 20A MCB in the consumer unit (not UK standard 30A) and all are radial wired (no ring mains).

Have a look at the thread elkangorito pointed at and here http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/

[Pink Mist]

The devices used to join wires are generally called 'connectors' or 'BP connectors'. See the attached picture.

BP came from the original manufacturer BLUE POINT, they are now and have been for a while been made by clipsal but "BP " still is the normal slang amongst us

[elkangorito]

The devices used to join wires are generally called 'connectors' or 'BP connectors'. See the attached picture.

BP came from the original manufacturer BLUE POINT, they are now and have been for a while been made by clipsal but "BP " still is the normal slang amongst us

I've been scratching my head about this for 20 years...now I know. Thanks bronco

[Lite Beer]

My house has two wires coming in so I assume my electrical outlets are not safely grounded.

Is there any way I could retrofit grounding?

My House was built in April 2007. I never really thought about it but after reading the many helpful posts on here I had a closer look and my house has no Earth or Ground.

We got a proper electrician to check things out and he confirmed this. He also found the electric shower Earth wires in the roof , going nowhere.

He put a 2 meter spike in the ground , connected the showers, changed 5 double sockets (where we have 3 pin appliances) and connected them. All done in a day.

I know we live in an Isaan village and the man was a friend , but the cost of this was 2,500 Baht including materials and labour.

A small price for safety. Anyone living in a house that is not Earthed, it can be done and is not expensive.

I would like to thank Crossy . Elkangorito and every one else for all the great information on this forum.

[klikster]

Your last question has a built-in bias whether you intended it or not. You use the word "qualified" only relating to "foreigner". Your questions about Thai electricians are incomplete in that they do not address "qualifications" one way or another.

Do you have an agenda related to "qualified foreigners"? If so, don't you believe that you should state that agenda?

[elkangorito]

Bump!

Seeing as you (klikster) are still around, my comments in blue.

Your last question has a built-in bias whether you intended it or not. You use the word "qualified" only relating to "foreigner".

There is no "built in" bias...there are only facts. You see, there are no regulatory "licensing" requirements for electricians performing residential work in Thailand. This is the opposite for farang electricians who perform domestic electrical work in their own countries. As a matter of fact, Thailand does not seem to have any standards that regulate domestic electrical wiring whereas in most farang countries, standards not only exist but are also enforced.

Your questions about Thai electricians are incomplete in that they do not address "qualifications" one way or another.

I work at a Thai Vocational College. The college seems to think that it teaches people to become electricians. I think the college is wrong because;

1] there are basically 2 electrical courses - electrical power & electronics. The students who undertake electrical power do not do any wiring practice that pertains to domestic installations. They do learn a lot more theory than what is needed to become an electrician. Since there are no electrical wiring rules, the information learnt by students is subject to whatever the teacher wants to tell or not tell them.

2] upon successful completion of the electrical power course, they will be issued with a certificate, which qualifies them in the field of electrical power, a very broad subject. Learning all about things mechanical does not qualify a person to be an automotive mechanic. Learning about all things electrical does not qualify a person to be an electrician.

If I lived in Australia, I would not want an electrical engineer to tamper with my domestic electrical installation since he/she would probably know bugger all about the specifics (detail) & would not know how to twist a wire (no real practice).

Do you have an agenda related to "qualified foreigners"? If so, don't you believe that you should state that agenda?

Yes, I do. I wish to one day start an electrical business.

[longball53098]

I guess I will continue this thread with some added information that I hope will be useful.

It would seem that if you read many of the web forums here in Thailand that have threads related to the Do-It-Yourself (DIY) person these forums will have topics that relate to electricity and the questions and discussions about all the whys, what ifs and how do I stuff. Such is the case here on TV DIY section. Many folks posting every week or so with electric questions.

I for one read topic after topic related to electrical questions as I have more than a passing interest and consider myself to be more than a novice about home electrical. Although I am not a certified electrician by trade I did carry a low voltage license most of my working life in the USA and this does entail a certain degree of training and knowledge of high voltages.

There are many true experts on the forums and their knowledge is invaluable and we can get it free in most cases.

One of the more frequent discussions that pop up is related to the “way” it’s done here in Thailand. Many discussions about how a place has been wired or not wired as the case may be. The use of the proper wire/cable and if a ground is installed or not and so on and so on. How to install a consumer panel and so on.

I am in the process of building a house in the Rayong Changwat in the Banchang district. Of course we will require temporary electrics for construction and then electrics for the house when complete. I would not even begin to discuss how the construction people disregard safety when it comes to electrical use during building. I would bet if any statistics were kept that the accident rate and death rates from electrical hazards is quite high.

We all know that the regulations regarding electrical systems for the home are quite loose if non-existant, I really don’t know what the regs are if they do exist but what I do know is the Provincial Electric Authority of Thailand (PEA) does have serious guidelines that they would like to see adhered to and they try to make it quite well known to the local population.

As I mentioned we are building a house and just the other day we visited the PEA office here in Banchang to apply for the temporary power for construction. Very simple process. When we finished I happened to notice a bookshelf below a large display board. On this shelf were several booklets and pamphlets showing and describing electrical use, energy use and conservation and electrical use safety. I took note of one booklet of 42 pages that was especially informative. This book shows and describes the proper way of installing electric services in most Thai homes. From the simple home in the country village to the most modern. All pictures and diagrams are clear and no need for reading Thai if you are a foreigner. For any Thai that claims to be a “professional” electrician all of this information should be second nature and used on a daily basis. For those of us that post the myriad of questions about how to install a service panel and wire it correctly this booklet could easily serve as a guide. For those that say they cannot make the “local” electrician understand what they want them to do I would think this book would be a useful tool to “guide” the local into doing it your way.

It is very obvious to me that the PEA is trying very much to get the message out to all that there is a way to make your home more safe and reliable using the methods shown by them and for not much cost. I would have to believe they are educating folks as best they can. This book definitely goes into earthing/grounding techniques the how to and also the whys. Great stuff.

I attach a scan of the cover and the first 2 pages. I would imagine that any PEA office has these same books. Next time you’re out and about if this kind of thing peaks your curiosity stop in and get one. If you understand electrical a little the pictures tell the story because the book is of course written in Thai.

Is this the solution to all your issues with the local guy? Hardly! But this may help some of you get your point across to the “electrician” your trying to persuade to do it the way you know is correct. I would say maybe a visit by them to the PEA office would help also.

[skipvice]

Thanks longball, copied and saved. I plan to have our home rewired in the next few months.

[dotcom]

The devices used to join wires are generally called 'connectors' or 'BP connectors'. See the attached picture.

What happened to your picture?

[longball53098]

This is a great topic

[dotcom]

Litebeer. I am trying to work out if you think 2500 baht for all that work & materials was "expensive"? Sorry but it's not clear.

Down here in the big city that would be considered "cheap".

Be happy knowing you have the only grounded system in the village. Are the roads paved up there?

[loong]

Most wiring that I have seen in Thailand is downright dangerous. Ok a lot of it is alterations to the original installation.

I find it unbeleivable that nowhere in Thailand seems to sell junction boxes and evrything seems to be twisted and taped.

I'm not qualified, but I am sure that I can do a better job than most Thai electricians.

Before, I stayed in a house that had 1 of those big boxes (residual breaker? - not sure) with a dial to adjust the sensitivity. When we had an electric shower intalled the electrician totally ignored this and connected straight into the mains switch. Maybe it wasn't man enough to cope with a 5Kwh shower. The only thing between the mains power from the power lines and the shower was a double pole switch with no safety device whatsoever. He did however put an earthing rod outside the bathroom and connected the shower to this, but with no fuse in the circuit, I don't know what would happen in the event of a fault.

If you are considering using an electrician. Ask him to put in an upstairs light with a switch upstairs and down, so you can switch on before climbing the stairs and switch off from upstairs. If he looks at you as if you are an idiot, then maybe he doesn't know his business. I did this for my father in law and they almost seemed to think that it was magic. The kids were running up and downstairs switching the light on and off enjoying the game. Mind you, guess how I made the connection to the mains - yes twisted and taped the wires. I looked and looked, but was unable to find any junction boxes or anything at all to make the connection. When in Rome do as the Romans do.

[dingdongrb]

I am like Tywais and hold a EE degree and by no means have a journeyman's license when it comes to either domestic or commercial electrical wiring. But I have remodeled a few of my previous homes in the USA and performed all the electrical work (was inspected by a journeyman and state inspector) so I have no problems with dealing with most electrical wiring.

However since coming to LOS and now living here to see how they wire their infrastructure for electrical distribution I have have no faith in Somchai whether it be domestic or industrial wiring....

[longball53098]

Most wiring that I have seen in Thailand is downright dangerous. Ok a lot of it is alterations to the original installation.

I find it unbelievable that nowhere in Thailand seems to sell junction boxes and everything seems to be twisted and taped.

I'm not qualified, but I am sure that I can do a better job than most Thai electricians.

Before, I stayed in a house that had 1 of those big boxes (residual breaker? - not sure) with a dial to adjust the sensitivity. When we had an electric shower intalled the electrician totally ignored this and connected straight into the mains switch. Maybe it wasn't man enough to cope with a 5Kwh shower. The only thing between the mains power from the power lines and the shower was a double pole switch with no safety device whatsoever. He did however put an earthing rod outside the bathroom and connected the shower to this, but with no fuse in the circuit, I don't know what would happen in the event of a fault.

If you are considering using an electrician. Ask him to put in an upstairs light with a switch upstairs and down, so you can switch on before climbing the stairs and switch off from upstairs. If he looks at you as if you are an idiot, then maybe he doesn't know his business. I did this for my father in law and they almost seemed to think that it was magic. The kids were running up and downstairs switching the light on and off enjoying the game. Mind you, guess how I made the connection to the mains - yes twisted and taped the wires. I looked and looked, but was unable to find any junction boxes or anything at all to make the connection. When in Rome do as the Romans do.

I will let the pictures speak to say that your statement about J boxes is not accurate. Wire nuts are available also.

[Crossy]

I will let the pictures speak to say that your statement about J boxes is not accurate. Wire nuts are available also.

Interesting, and some differences in terminology.

Those ^^^ are not what would be called 'junction boxes' in the UK, they are simply 'boxes' or 'conduit boxes'. Under UK regs cable joints are not normally permitted in this type of box, they are used to join the conduit and allow cables to route to their destination.

A UK junction box contains fixed screw terminals that are used to terminate the cores. I have never seen this type of box in Thailand (get them in Malaysia though).

Personally, I don't like wire-nuts (I like twisted joints even less), wire-nuts are fine if installed correctly but so often they are not, leading to possibly fizzing joints hidden away in a box somewhere This is why they are not permitted in UK installations, even JBs must be 'accessible' so hiding them in the ceiling is not allowed unless there is an access hatch (so they're ok in the loft space).

EDIT Have you looked inside those nicely installed boxes, could be scary

[loong]

Crossy,

if you do some alterations to the wiring in your Thai home, how do you make the connections? Do you bring junction boxes from the UK?

I want to upgrade the wiring in this house, put in an earth and a lot more sockets. As they use radial, not ring main in Thailand I can't believe that you need a mcb in the Consumer unit for every single socket.

How many sockets can you run from 1 mcb?

Cheers

[Crossy]

if you do some alterations to the wiring in your Thai home, how do you make the connections? Do you bring junction boxes from the UK?

I want to upgrade the wiring in this house, put in an earth and a lot more sockets. As they use radial, not ring main in Thailand I can't believe that you need a mcb in the Consumer unit for every single socket.

How many sockets can you run from 1 mcb?

I use big (25A) choc-bloc connectors inside boxes like those illustrated above (like I said I don't like wire-nuts) to hook up the droppers, I've given up trying to persuade local sparkies to run down to the outlet then back up UK style, 'wastes cable'.

You can run as many outlets as you wish off each MCB (the cable is protected by the breaker), sensible installation would be 6-8 doubles per breaker (fewer in high power areas like the kitchen and workshop). Our place has a breaker per room.

Use 2.5mm² cable and a 20A breaker per radial.

Useful stuff here http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/ I really must add a page on joining wires

[loong]

Hi crossy

when I was trying to find a means of connection, I did look for the Choc bloc style, but could only see the small ones, same as you get inside a Fluorescent light fitting. Certainly not man enough for anything else.

thanks very much for the info

[dotcom]

What size wire are you trying to splice (join)?

[loong]

At that time I was trying to find a better replacement for the existing wiring -twisted and taped 2mmSq or 2.5 I think

[longball53098]

I will let the pictures speak to say that your statement about J boxes is not accurate. Wire nuts are available also.

Interesting, and some differences in terminology.

Those ^^^ are not what would be called 'junction boxes' in the UK, they are simply 'boxes' or 'conduit boxes'. Under UK regs cable joints are not normally permitted in this type of box, they are used to join the conduit and allow cables to route to their destination.

A UK junction box contains fixed screw terminals that are used to terminate the cores. I have never seen this type of box in Thailand (get them in Malaysia though).

Personally, I don't like wire-nuts (I like twisted joints even less), wire-nuts are fine if installed correctly but so often they are not, leading to possibly fizzing joints hidden away in a box somewhere This is why they are not permitted in UK installations, even JBs must be 'accessible' so hiding them in the ceiling is not allowed unless there is an access hatch (so they're ok in the loft space).

EDIT Have you looked inside those nicely installed boxes, could be scary

Maybe I am not using correct terminology as the boxes depicted most likely are what I would call pull boxes rather than what you call a junction box. You are correct that a J box in your world would be used as a point that wires meet and are joined, same in my world. This should be accessible for service purposes. And I would even try to avoid splice boxes if possible and keep all the wiring home runs.

In my world we always use wire nuts and the method used to install the nut was to twist the wire first then apply the nut. Now with new technology nuts the companies making the nuts say there is no need to twist the wires. They have proven effective in the USA for years and are approved. If someone using them does not apply correctly that's not the nuts fault. The chock block method can have the same issues. I have repaired several poor connections in my current place due to poorly wired chock blocks. It all boils down to training and proper installation procedures and someone that cares to do a proper job^^^^^^^^^^quality is job one!

My point was to answer the question of box and wire nut availability. Conduit boxes, junction boxes and whatever is available here. You can buy EMT and fittings if you choose. The proper stuff is here and available. It may cost you and you may have a difficult time getting it installed but it is all available.

[Crossy]

RE. Choc-blocks.

Not knowing what they're called in Thai I just went in our local electrical emporium with a small choc-block and asked for a bigger one. After some rummaging the lady came out with all sorts of sizes including some that looked good for 25mm² cable (huge). I got some marked '25A' big enough to get three or four 2.5mm² wires in

HomePro also have some fair sized ones if you hunt for them.

[Crossy]

It all boils down to training and proper installation procedures and someone that cares to do a proper job^^^^^^^^^^quality is job one!

Can't argue with that

I'm quite sure that modern wire-nuts are just fine. They've been outlawed in the UK for some time (IEE regs 14th edition, 1966) and at the time were really only slightly better than tape, I've not actually brushed with a modern one, it goes against years of 'you can't use that now'.

EDIT I've started quite a discussion on the IET forum regarding whether wire-nuts (Screwits in the UK) are actually legal. Seems that the old ceramic ones are definately out, but the modern ones 'may' be ok as they are not specifically prohibited. UK sparkies use the premise 'if it's not specifically prohibited then it must be ok'

[stephanienyc]

I will let the pictures speak to say that your statement about J boxes is not accurate. Wire nuts are available also.

Interesting, and some differences in terminology.

Those ^^^ are not what would be called 'junction boxes' in the UK, they are simply 'boxes' or 'conduit boxes'. Under UK regs cable joints are not normally permitted in this type of box, they are used to join the conduit and allow cables to route to their destination.

A UK junction box contains fixed screw terminals that are used to terminate the cores. I have never seen this type of box in Thailand (get them in Malaysia though).

Personally, I don't like wire-nuts (I like twisted joints even less), wire-nuts are fine if installed correctly but so often they are not, leading to possibly fizzing joints hidden away in a box somewhere This is why they are not permitted in UK installations, even JBs must be 'accessible' so hiding them in the ceiling is not allowed unless there is an access hatch (so they're ok in the loft space).

OK. I've been following the posts on the electrical subject for a couple months now. The main problem I see here is that a lot of you are from the UK or Australia. You are bringing your British and Australian wiring standards, conventions and expectations to a country where primarily American standards are used. Think "American".

For instance, USA type junction boxes do not have integrated terminal blocks in the enclosure. We use twisted wire & a nut (called Scru-its in the UK - obsolete for a few decades now) and these go in a plain metal or plastic box -- the same type used for switches and sockets. The proper way to assemble these connections is to twist the wires and then screw the nut on. Wrap the thing with electrical tape to protect the splice from getting full of debris and dust.

Boxes in the USA also have to be fully accessible if installed in a finished wall. That's why they're mounted in the same way as switch/outlet boxes and are then fitted with a blank plate that can be unscrewed for inspection/repair.

Also, American sockets are not switched (like you see in the UK). We also don't use ring mains or put plugs in our fuses (UK). That is just the way these things evolved. Thailand just happens to follow mostly American standards and conventions for electric, adapted for local conditions and customes, just like the Philippines and South Korea.

However, that being said, there is no excuse for just taping a couple wires together and tossing the whole mess behind the wall. That would be improper in any country in the world. If anyone has seen wiring installations in the USA, you'll know we have lots of cowboys. Ditto the UK and Australia.

Be safe!

[Crossy]

Thailand just happens to follow mostly American standards and conventions for electric, adapted for local conditions and customes, just like the Philippines and South Korea.

Hmmm, I don't see any 110V 60Hz or 220V bi-phase supplies in Thailand.

Actually about the only US standard stuff here is the style of the outlets and the "colors" of the wires (which has caught out numerous American citizens with their 110V appliances) and even that's starting to change, with an increasing amount of Euro standard Brown, Blue, Green/Yellow cable becoming available. Do you have MEN or PME in the US?

Philippines is 220V 60Hz delta, again not US, I would sort of agree about Korea where they haphazardly mix 110V and 220V lamps and outlets (cost me a TV, plugged the 110V telly into an unmarked 220V outlet).

Thai standards such as they are are actually closer to Oz than anywhere else.

[stephanienyc]

Thailand just happens to follow mostly American standards and conventions for electric, adapted for local conditions and customes, just like the Philippines and South Korea.

Hmmm, I don't see any 110V 60Hz or 220V bi-phase supplies in Thailand.

Actually about the only US standard stuff here is the style of the outlets and the "colors" of the wires (which has caught out numerous American citizens with their 110V appliances) and even that's starting to change, with an increasing amount of Euro standard Brown, Blue, Green/Yellow cable becoming available. Do you have MEN or PME in the US?

Philippines is 220V 60Hz delta, again not US, I would sort of agree about Korea where they haphazardly mix 110V and 220V lamps and outlets (cost me a TV, plugged the 110V telly into an unmarked 220V outlet).

Thai standards such as they are are actually closer to Oz than anywhere else.

That is what i meant by US standard stuff -- the devices and wires (and even some installation standards).

In the USA we bond the neutral wire from the utility transformer to the customer provided ground (earth) connection at the main service disconnect (usually where the meter and main disconnect are). After that point, the neutral and ground must be on separate wires. http://en.allexperts.com/q/Electrical-Wiri...l-vs-ground.htm

As far as South Korea, from my personal experience, the rule of thumb is: Outlets with flat pins are for 110 volts. Outlets with round pins are for 220 volts. Nowadays we use Schuko grounded sockets for 220 volts, but in the old days - Korean sockets just had the two round pins with no ground. The ungrounded sockets were only recently discontinued, so you still see a fair amount of them. This is the new type: http://www.iseao.co.kr/htm/je2s11.htm