Regenerative Agriculture

[IsaanAussie]

Worth a look for vetch, beans, peas etc.. to go with sunn hemp. Point being in nature "pairie" grassland is not a monoculture the more diverse the better. 

To me the first issue is getting enough ground moisture to get it all to grow. Passing that tipping point that limits Isaan paddies. 

Imagine the quality of baled forage you could produce!

[IsaanAussie]

This is the first video I watched of Gabe Brown. It is long and a bit dry but bare with it. There are many others if you search his name on youtube. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUmIdq0D6-A

[farmerjo]

1 hour ago, IsaanAussie said:

Vitavar (spelling) or Kings grass. Can get it from the Ag ext places.

Had a look,might need a few more horsepower for that????

We can grow two crops a season here but would be more orientated to say a corn crop in april followed by a legume mix.

Back to front i know but that's what the climate predicts.

Edited December 19, 2019 by farmerjo

[kickstart]

2 hours ago, IsaanAussie said:

Worth a look for vetch, beans, peas etc.. to go with sunn hemp. Point being in nature "pairie" grassland is not a monoculture the more diverse the better. 

To me the first issue is getting enough ground moisture to get it all to grow. Passing that tipping point that limits Isaan paddies. 

Imagine the quality of baled forage you could produce!

Would vetches and peas grow here in Thailand ,black beans would ,if you can find the seed ,and they like the cool season ,so they would grow well after a rice crop .

I would say Mung beans would be your best bet ,seed easily available ,do not need a lot of water ,but being a legume the insects like them ,some form of insecticide would be needed .

For ubon stylo seed contact your local DLD office ,and I am almost certain it has a tap root ,if you have  a large cup of coffee and trawl the net they is a paper on growing ubon stylo in rice paddies , try Khon Khen University they have published some good papers about farming in Thailand .

It would make a good  silage/hay with a protein of 13% ,pluss if it is cut at a young stage.

But, growing grass /legumes on a rice field , as soon as the rains come the plants would become waterlogged ,the field would have to be subsoiled first before sowing .

[kickstart]

2 hours ago, farmerjo said:

Had a look,might need a few more horsepower for that????

We can grow two crops a season here but would be more orientated to say a corn crop in april followed by a legume mix.

Back to front i know but that's what the climate predicts.

That is what we use to do corn ,then followed by mung beans worked well ,as I said mung beans do not need a lot of water .

But with the climate of the past 2 years ,one crop of corn a year is about your lot .

A few years ago rice farmers tried sesame  seed soon as the rains come in  April ,then followed by the main rice crop , sesame seed is a 80-90 day crop, yields of sesame seed where very variable ,on  our Kee-Pet soil ,very light land it barely covered costs ,but on heavy land they where some useful yields,

How much of the low yields where due to poor soil condition and not the weather is anyone's guess. 

[farmerjo]

37 minutes ago, kickstart said:

That is what we use to do corn ,then followed by mung beans worked well ,as I said mung beans do not need a lot of water .

But with the climate of the past 2 years ,one crop of corn a year is about your lot .

A few years ago rice farmers tried sesame  seed soon as the rains come in  April ,then followed by the main rice crop , sesame seed is a 80-90 day crop, yields of sesame seed where very variable ,on  our Kee-Pet soil ,very light land it barely covered costs ,but on heavy land they where some useful yields,

How much of the low yields where due to poor soil condition and not the weather is anyone's guess. 

You've had a good increase in no-till planters in your area KS.

Do the guys doing it feel it can be the difference on a tight year with moisture for the 2nd crop giving them and others looking over the fence more confidence.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by farmerjo

[IsaanAussie]

How about sorghum in the blend? One of the grasses MH sells is Mulato II which is drought tolerant and reasonable forage value. Mung beans intercropped.  

My thoughts were to try first to achieve SOM and nutrient soil increases rather than produce a crop. Get roots into the ground to improve percolation rates. If grains/beans could be combined to be used as feed then all the plant matter baled for silage prior to preparation for the next rice crop. Am I being too simplistic? 

[kickstart]

12 hours ago, farmerjo said:

You've had a good increase in no-till planters in your area KS.

Do the guys doing it feel it can be the difference on a tight year with moisture for the 2nd crop giving them and others looking over the fence more confidence.

 

 

In this area sunflowers have been our susses story ,they are all direct drilled in to maize stubble ,before they where sown with Ford 6600 and a 7 disc plough with a seeder attachment  ,which gave you a very uneven growth as the seeds where sown at various depths ,and a low yield .

With direct drilling you got an even  seed depth , and a higher yield ,also a Ford 6600 with a seeder is about 250-300 baht rie ,with direct drilling the farmer can use his  own 23hp Hino ,or get some one in at about 150 baht/rie ,a win win situation .

As for water sunflowers do not need a lot ,80% of crops never see any rain this year 100%,the main  reason they are popular. 

Second crop maize has been direct drilled a lot is the time factor ,direct drilling can be done immediately after harvest  before you had to wait for a guy to come with his Ford and plough ect ,that  could take up to 2 weeks .

Again the crop can be drilled by the owner ,no cost of the ploughing tractor ,more soil nutrients avlable to the plant as they are they for the plant ,not one foot under ground after they have been ploughed under ,again a win win situation .

As for giveing farmers more confidence ,I would say it is more  financial with  less inputs than  before ,and with sunflowers higher  yield.

You can rise your fist in the air and say yes ,when farmers drill the first crop of maize by direct drilling ,which I think will not happen ,right now ploughs are out ploughing land,more weed control than anything   ,would a crimper roller work ? I do not think so ,the weeds would get up again ,a minimum till would work done at the right time ,with that your past crop   plant nutrients would still be available for the next crop and  less soil disturbance than ploughing .

[farmerjo]

7 minutes ago, kickstart said:

You can rise your fist in the air and say yes ,when farmers drill the first crop of maize by direct drilling ,which I think will not happen ,right now ploughs are out ploughing land,more weed control than anything   ,would a crimper roller work ? I do not think so ,the weeds would get up again ,a minimum till would work done at the right time ,with that your past crop   plant nutrients would still be available for the next crop and  less soil disturbance than ploughing .

Now glyphosate is going to be around longer,a boom spray behind the tractor may become more beneficial to getting rid of the plough if they could just make the no-till machines a little heavier here for that 1st crop.Reading through the Yeoman's plow a few more times i think i'm swaying to put the money into building a 2 or 3 tyne subsoiler to replace my single shank rather than a roller crimper at this stage as i already have a 5 foot slasher which works okay for here.

Just thought i'd share this, i emailed my brother yesterday who has pretty much cropped wheat on wheat for 30 years in 14-16" rainfall country with no livestock.

I asked him since he has been minimum tilling(6" knife points) did his soil samples improve for organic matter in the soil,stay the same or worse.

He said he has always had low organic matter and the agronomists there don't advise building it as it locks up to much nitrogen in the soil trying to break it down. 

Another interesting point on the GPS,he is in the process now of widening his seeder bar because even with Autosteer he lost 20 hectares in overlapping this year.

 

 

[kickstart]

3 hours ago, IsaanAussie said:

How about sorghum in the blend? One of the grasses MH sells is Mulato II which is drought tolerant and reasonable forage value. Mung beans intercropped.  

My thoughts were to try first to achieve SOM and nutrient soil increases rather than produce a crop. Get roots into the ground to improve percolation rates. If grains/beans could be combined to be used as feed then all the plant matter baled for silage prior to preparation for the next rice crop. Am I being too simplistic? 

Sorghum would work ,but it dose not grow well on light land ,and like a lot of N to do well ,and finding the seed ,use to be a lot around ,we grew brown sorgum ,once our dairy farmers grow the white sorghum ,keeping the seed back for the following year ,try your local Agi Office for seed ,

Mulato II I dream of this grass but on our land it will not grow ,gets to wet Mulato II likes free draining land.

You could use Paspalum Atatum will grew on most soils and as a young gass has a reasonable forage value (,as a grazing grass soon gets old and stock will not eat it).

What would work is Pigeon Pea a legume,  I think in Thai ถั่วแระ seed has been available ,again try your local Agi Office .

 

[sbf]

Here is my provisional list for a cover to go down before we plant rice a month or two later. I think that the timing of the sowing of the cover will vary from year to year. We will have to monitor rainfall and ground moisture carefully to try and get the sowing date correct. We wowuld like to direct drill the rice into the rolled cover. 

 

I have heard of a technique used in India where they grew Macuna. This was planted in rows in the rice fields, allowed to establish and spread out over the field. Then just before rice sowing the Macuna was rolled up, cut where the plants emerged from the ground. The rice seed was sown and the Macuna then rolled out again to dessicate and decay. Pretty low tech way to get a good mulch cover in place, give a nitrogen boost from the Macuna which is leguminous. Plenty of non-itchy forms available - the Thai one is not for me.

 

Maize

Sunflower

Cowpeas

Alyce Clover

Sesame

Sesbania

Pigeon Pea

Cannavallea

Sunflower

Cumin

Coriander

Black Beans

Mung Beans

Soya Beans

Mexican Sunflower

Quinoa

Amaranthus

Pearl Millet or Japanese Millet

Sorghum or Sorghum Sudan

Kenaf

Butterfly Pea

Mustard

 

I think that is 20+ which is what we are aiming for, and pretty cheap seed which I think is important if one needs to try and encourage other farmers to follow.  9-10 plant families and probably go for a balance of mix which gives us 30-40% Graminae and 60-70% other families. We do not want to use Crotolaria as it is our crop after the rice and before we will sow the mixed cover, but it would be a natural as other have mentioned. 

[drtreelove]

https://www.nutri-tech.com.au/downloads/seminars/regenerate-nz-feb-2020.pdf

[kickstart]

On 12/20/2019 at 10:20 PM, sbf said:

Here is my provisional list for a cover to go down before we plant rice a month or two later. I think that the timing of the sowing of the cover will vary from year to year. We will have to monitor rainfall and ground moisture carefully to try and get the sowing date correct. We wowuld like to direct drill the rice into the rolled cover. 

 

I have heard of a technique used in India where they grew Macuna. This was planted in rows in the rice fields, allowed to establish and spread out over the field. Then just before rice sowing the Macuna was rolled up, cut where the plants emerged from the ground. The rice seed was sown and the Macuna then rolled out again to dessicate and decay. Pretty low tech way to get a good mulch cover in place, give a nitrogen boost from the Macuna which is leguminous. Plenty of non-itchy forms available - the Thai one is not for me.

 

Maize

Sunflower

Cowpeas

Alyce Clover

Sesame

Sesbania

Pigeon Pea

Cannavallea

Sunflower

Cumin

Coriander

Black Beans

Mung Beans

Soya Beans

Mexican Sunflower

Quinoa

Amaranthus

Pearl Millet or Japanese Millet                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

Sorghum or Sorghum Sudan

Kenaf

Butterfly Pea

Mustard

 

I think that is 20+ which is what we are aiming for, and pretty cheap seed which I think is important if one needs to try and encourage other farmers to follow.  9-10 plant families and probably go for a balance of mix which gives us 30-40% Graminae and 60-70% other families. We do not want to use Crotolaria as it is our crop after the rice and before we will sow the mixed cover, but it would be a natural as other have mentioned. 

A comprehensive list ,but where would you get 50% of the seed, Alyce clover and Mustard I would say not available in Thailand ,and I can not see them growing in Thailand ,Mustard use be be grown in a wet cool autumn  UK ,not a tropical country ,and I would say millet seed  would be unavailable .

I would use Mung bean or Pigeon pea, job done ,if you looked at the price of sunflower seed that would be off your list expensive. 

[farmerjo]

1 hour ago, drtreelove said:

https://www.nutri-tech.com.au/downloads/seminars/regenerate-nz-feb-2020.pdf

What date will he be in Thailand.

[IsaanAussie]

9 hours ago, farmerjo said:

What date will he be in Thailand.

I have asked him that before. If we could get a group together he might well stop by. More likely we could get Steve (NTS) here, he lives in SEA and travels to India often. He has stated he would like to come visit.

[Grumpy John]

I have a question slightly off course.   We have a rice block which has 20 rai,  5 of which at the East end does poorly for yield and we are thinking we will turn that to fruit trees.....not sure what fruit yet. The question is: Would it be advantageous to us to use a post hole borer to create decent size holes to place a mixture of good soil and potting mix before planting?  Based on the assumption that the soil is probably long dead. 

[BritManToo]

28 minutes ago, Grumpy John said:

Would it be advantageous to us to use a post hole borer to create decent size holes to place a mixture of good soil and potting mix before planting? 

Not unless the hole borer was three feet wide.

[IsaanAussie]

Just now, Grumpy John said:

I have a question slightly off course.   We have a rice block which has 20 rai,  5 of which at the East end does poorly for yield and we are thinking we will turn that to fruit trees.....not sure what fruit yet. The question is: Would it be advantageous to us to use a post hole borer to create decent size holes to place a mixture of good soil and potting mix before planting?  Based on the assumption that the soil is probably long dead. 

If you just create a fertile hole (dripline diameter) you will be forming a poorly drained flower pot. I would suggest you think about creating a pond and increasing the height of the land into which you plant the trees with the spoil. Regenerating the soil can then be done before you plant.

[farmerjo]

1 hour ago, Grumpy John said:

I have a question slightly off course.   We have a rice block which has 20 rai,  5 of which at the East end does poorly for yield and we are thinking we will turn that to fruit trees.....not sure what fruit yet. The question is: Would it be advantageous to us to use a post hole borer to create decent size holes to place a mixture of good soil and potting mix before planting?  Based on the assumption that the soil is probably long dead. 

I have hired out my post hole digger for rubber and dragon fruit plantations,they grew well.

Personally for my lime trees i just deep ripped a strip and they have grown well.(not rice land)

The design of a tree planter is normally a scalper with a ripper then a set of press wheels to pack around the seedling.

 

 

Edited December 25, 2019 by farmerjo

[worgeordie]

You should stream the movie " The biggest Little Farm", about a couple

from California who bought 200 acres of land ,of basically dead soil,and

how they brought it all back to life ,how they solved the problems they

came up against,how Gophers took over,so they put up Owl boxes,and

ended up with 180 Barn owl on the farm,eating Gophers,then they had

big problems with Starlings pecking at their stone fruit trees, then Hawks

made their home there and controlled the Starlings.

 

The land was so lush the had a plague of snails eating the tree leaves,

so they let Ducks into the orchard,which ate them all.

it's a very good watch and just shows what can be achieved,with hard work,

and a bunch of volunteers,  

Happy Christmas regards Worgeordie

Edited December 25, 2019 by worgeordie

[IsaanAussie]

Rice paddies are flood prone by nature. Not conditions fruit trees tolerate. Basically too much water in the wet and not enough/none in the dry. 

[farmerjo]

2 hours ago, IsaanAussie said:

Rice paddies are flood prone by nature. Not conditions fruit trees tolerate. Basically too much water in the wet and not enough/none in the dry. 

What if he took out the banks IA and deep ripped,laser levelling land has taken off over the years and it's already done.

Edited December 25, 2019 by farmerjo

[IsaanAussie]

Just now, farmerjo said:

What if he took out the banks IA and deep ripped,laser levelling land has taken off over the years and it's already done.

How about bringing the surface to plant trees into up above the existing paddy bunds as the starting point. The bunds are usually the highest local flood level. If from the boundary, you could slope into the centre then any rain would run into the middle, the site of the pond. In X section the outside would be high and dry and have trees maybe even pasture, perhaps inside that a lower level where other crops or vegetables could be grown during the wet. The pond being surrounded by rice paddies forming the lowest level with a bund edge around the pond to regulate the paddy depth.

Does that make sense?

[farmerjo]

On 12/19/2019 at 9:13 PM, kickstart said:

A few years ago rice farmers tried sesame  seed soon as the rains come in  April ,then followed by the main rice crop , sesame seed is a 80-90 day crop, yields of sesame seed where very variable ,on  our Kee-Pet soil ,very light land it barely covered costs ,but on heavy land they where some useful yields,

How much of the low yields where due to poor soil condition and not the weather is anyone's guess. 

I'm interested in sesame,similar to sunn hemp.

Easy on the harvester being a high crop,same with weed control.

Not sure how far the varieties have come in Thailand regarding a non desicant shatterless harvest.

Varieties i've come across on the net are CM07 black,CM53 white and KKU3.

Yields seem reasonable if can minimize harvest losses.

 

 

[Grumpy John]

I should have mentioned this 5rai is on a very gentle slope towards the  East end (I did say it was the East end of the block but without a GPS I would probably be stuck out there till I die of hunger! ????) Not a lot  of water to worry about during the wet and B-in-L tells we can divert it. I thought we could probably get an 18 inch PHB and GEt the tRees started then then top  dress around each tree as we go......

[IsaanAussie]

Just now, Grumpy John said:

I should have mentioned this 5rai is on a very gentle slope towards the  East end (I did say it was the East end of the block but without a GPS I would probably be stuck out there till I die of hunger! ????) Not a lot  of water to worry about during the wet and B-in-L tells we can divert it. I thought we could probably get an 18 inch PHB and GEt the tRees started then then top  dress around each tree as we go......

Cut a series of swales across the slope to slow the water down and allow it to soak in. Plant on the swales. 

[kickstart]

On 12/25/2019 at 10:40 PM, farmerjo said:

I'm interested in sesame,similar to sunn hemp.

Easy on the harvester being a high crop,same with weed control.

Not sure how far the varieties have come in Thailand regarding a non desicant shatterless harvest.

Varieties i've come across on the net are CM07 black,CM53 white and KKU3.

Yields seem reasonable if can minimize harvest losses.

 

 

When we grew sesame ,it was red varietie ,we had no idea on varieties  name ,no labels  on the bags .

Problem is sesame seed is kept back from the previous year for seed stock ,and I would say over a few years varieties names get lost ,as for non  desiccant shatterless harvest  varieties, that is out of Thailand's league ,never seen them ,and harvest is done by hand .

You could try Pacific seed they might help with finding some seed .

[Grumpy John]

On 12/27/2019 at 11:38 AM, IsaanAussie said:

Cut a series of swales across the slope to slow the water down and allow it to soak in. Plant on the swales. 

Not really sure that is the answer.  At dinner last night the conversation was about the hard floor of  the paddie.  Exactly what can I expect to  find.   Tik had no idea!  With the amount of rock in the soil nearby it could be as bad, in its own way,  as the concrete soup sitting on the top...and I am not heading out there With a pick and shovel to find out! An excavator is the answer.....and the dam at the East end is due for a clean out.....I think I have a plan!  ????

[sbf]

On 12/23/2019 at 9:02 PM, kickstart said:

A comprehensive list ,but where would you get 50% of the seed, Alyce clover and Mustard I would say not available in Thailand ,and I can not see them growing in Thailand ,Mustard use be be grown in a wet cool autumn  UK ,not a tropical country ,and I would say millet seed  would be unavailable .

I would use Mung bean or Pigeon pea, job done ,if you looked at the price of sunflower seed that would be off your list expensive. 

KS, Alyce we already have, it grows well on one of the farms and is always present there. When we harvest and clean the Sunn Hemp we usually get a couple of kg of Alyce seed as a byproduct. 

 

Mustard is widely grown in India so could try and get a little seed from there, should be adapted more or less to our conditions. https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ija/2012/408284/  Or I may have a look in my favorite seed merchant Makro where I picked up the Coriander and Cumin. 

 

I have a few OP Sunflowers growing now by the house and will harvest them in a month or two so they should just need a little time and effort. A kg or two of their seed is all that is needed as part of the mix.  I have stock of most of the rest of the seed already, just testing viability of some species at the moment so we can mix the seed early and be ready for sowing on the first decent rain after Songkran. Incidentally Quinoa after 1 day pic attached, just over 24 hours, 100% germination - source of seed Royal Project Shop at Don Muang, 150 baht for 200 gms which contains around 100,000 seeds. 

 

The reason I do not want to just put in one species is I am interested in is seeing how the mix performs. There is some interesting observations in a couple of the links in the OP that the mixed cover crop plots in trials were more tolerant of adverse conditions than any one of the species on its own. 

 

[sbf]

I just watched this presentation on regenerative agriculture by an Aussie soil microbiologist which I found very interesting. A long watch but he gets his points across in an easily digestible manner. Put everything into an evolutionary perspective for me anyway.