Important Financial Considerations For Visa Holder

[fdimike]

I am new to this forum so please bear with me. My wife (Thai born - American citizen) and I (American) are planning to retire in Thailand in Feb '05. We will both retire 12/31/04, she from the private sector, me from combination military & government career. I will be 59 y/o at the time of my retirement, my wife 56. I will be receiving a pension for life. We are in good shape financially. We have already established a Thai bank account. Neither of us plans to work in Thailand. Can somone please explain to us how we should proceed re: obtaining the correct visa for our situation.

[JimGant]

Mike,

Lots of info on this forum, but it requires some sifting using the 'search' function. Then, you'll be able to ask some specific questions in order to better nail down your options.

A quick and dirty: You'll need a Non Immigrant 'O' or 'O-A' . Use these to search on.

Also, your wife should renew her Thai passport if it's expired, which will make it a lot easier, and cheaper, for her to enter, remain in, and leave Thailand. Since both the US and Thailand recognize dual citizenship, she would use her US passport for entering and leaving the US.

[ProThaiExpat]

fdmike: Your first decision is whether you want to get your non-immigrant visa in the States, the requirements for which vary between different Embassy's and counsulates or whether you want to do it the easy way here in Thailand.

The only advantage of doing it the "hard way" in the U.S. is that you can reportedly bring in household goods duty free if you have the comfort in knowing that you have your retirement classification before entering. Most, however, elect to buy all new here in Thailand as almost everything is available and much cheaper. U.S. Embassys require a police clearance and a more expensive medical certificate, among other things. Check with your nearentst Embassy for what they require.

Here in Thailand it is a slam dunk once you come into the country on a tourist visa. Below is my canned outline on how it is done:

Basic “retirement” classification questions answered!

Terminology is important in this area!!

Normally, entry into Thailand, from a foreign country is accomplished with a VISA, obtained from a Thai consulate or embassy abroad. This visa is called a non-immigrant O-A visa with a retirement classification. The same visa obtained in Thailand is termed a non-immigrant O visa with a retirement classification.

Entry into Thailand without a VISA, is permitted at the airport for thirty days, for aliens from visa waiver countries and is based on an ENTRY PERMIT.

As explained by immigration on their website, VISAS are primarily the province of Consulates and Embassies, entities attached to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. The MFA has given immigration the authority to change classifications of visas but not the authority to change an entry permit into a visa in Thailand, as far as I know.

Entry into Thailand without a visa, deportation from Thailand and regulation of the length of your stay, including entry and re-entry, are the province of the Department of Immigration, a police agency, staffed by police officers on assignment to the Immigration Department. The officer in charge of the Chiang Mai Immigration Department reminds us publicly, that immigration is a police agency, not a service agency and its function is to regulate, not to provide a service.

There is no such thing as a RETIREMENT VISA.

There is a long stay classification for aliens termed "RETIRMENT" and the requirement to qualify for this classification is essentially a verified Thai bank account of 800,000 Baht (alternatively a pension of 65K Baht) if applying in Thailand and an equivalent sum in an overseas account, or a pension, if applying overseas. Age requirement is being at least 50 years old.

The EASIEST way to get a long stay retirement classification is to do it in Thailand on the 3rd floor of the main immigration building in Bangkok. There has been some talk that it now can be accomplished at branch locations as well.

For some, the benefits of going through the additional hassle of obtaining the O-A in your home country is the comfort of having your immigration status finalized before you move to Thailand for retirement and the fact that you can move your household goods into Thailand without paying duty. (Make sure your shipping cost justify your shipment of goods easily replaced in Thailand at very reasonable prices)

The difficulty in obtaining this classification abroad is the differing requirements from Consulate to Consulate and Embassy to Embassy and the far more stringent requirements than in Bangkok. Sydney’s consulate told me in no uncertain terms that each Consul General had the right to interpret the regulations any way they want, and in Sydney, I needed a police clearance certificate from my home country, among many other things. Cambodia said forget it, don't even try.

The “long stay” retirement classification is based on a NON-IMMIGRANT O VISA (retirement) in Thailand (O-A abroad) and a change to this visa classification can be accomplished in Thailand, providing you have entered Thailand with a VISA, even a tourist visa, as was the case with me.

Here is an account of an expat doing this in Bangkok at the end of June, 2004

“I had a similiar experience this week at the main Immigration office.

I applied for the one year retirement extension. Apparently this

is not possible with a Tourist visa. So they had me getting in shape

with the stairs. From room 303 back down to the 2nd floor to

change my Tourist to a Non Imm O. Then to 1st floor to pay.

Back to 3rd floor room 303. They scrutinized my docs, asked my

Thai lady questions in Thai and then seemingly approved all my

papers (bank letter (200B), health certificate (380 B at Bumrungrad))

and told me to come back next month when my new 30 day

Non Imm O expires.

It was quite a runaround, but looks like I will have my 1 year

extension later this month.”

Thai immigration’s document “requirements list” is as follows” (obtained from their website)

Application for further stay to spend the remainder of life

in the Kingdom of Thailand

1. Immigration form 7 (Tor Mor 7)

2. Copy of passport

3. 4 cm. x 6 cm. photograph

4. 1,900 bath application fee

5. Financial Evidence:

- Bank account pass-book, bank statement

- Evidence showing reception of pension accompanied with Thai translation certified by the embassy or consulate of the country paying the pension

- Evidence presenting other sources of income or evidence of money transferred from overseas

6. In cases of having dependents (husband/wife, children), the applicant must provide evidence indication their relationship. Evidence must be translated into Thai and be certified by the embassy or consulate of the aliens.

7. Health Certificate for those who apply for further stay after Nov. 14, 2002.

8. The officials reserve the rights to examine or ask for additional documents, if necessary.

Name Webmaster (203.156.96.*) [ Saturday 15 May 2004 เวลา 16:16 น ] Comment No: 1

To obtain your change of visa classification on the 3rd floor of the main immigration building, you need to take with you a bank letter stating you have the required minimum 800k Baht for the retirement classification in a bank account (anything other than a fixed rate account). The letter should include the date of the transfer of the funds into your account, the source institution of the funds and the country from which the funds came.

The STANDARD BANK LETTER, one that merely states the amount on deposit on any given day is INSUFFICIENT for the change of status process, while it is fine for any annual extension thereafter. This was the case with me, others may have got by with the standard letter.

There is an option to qualify for retirement financial status through pension verification, but that is a very difficult approach, requiring an Embassy verification of the pension. (You need strong pension entitlement or promises to pay letters for the Embassy to get their verification) The difficulty is the individual immigration officer involved may choose to explore the stability of the source of your pension. Conceivably, the pension could be terminated or suspended for a number of reasons during the year and you would then be left penniless, if no other funds were available. Thus a savings account in Thailand in addition to qualifying with a pension is a better approach if you can manage that. A combination of the two also qualify to meet the minimum requirement.

The health certificate that is required is obtainable from any emergency room of any hospital (preferred) or clinic. Exam may not even occur. 50 Baht or more is charged.

Your signature on all photocopies of all documents, including every page of your passport, is required.

4cm x 6cm colored photograph (suggest you take more than one).

No Embassy letter is required unless you are trying to qualify financial responsibility through a pension.

No police or criminal clearance document is required.

Dress very well, be extremely polite, try to keep your head at or below that of the officers involved, don't stand over them when they are seated as that is seen as very intimidating or threatening.

Most importantly, have a mental frame of mind that you will do ANYTHING required of you, including numerous trivial and unnecessary tasks when requested. Your mind set is that you are not going away, you are there to stay the course until the document sought is obtained.

Your first extension under your non-immigrant 0 (retirement) status will probably be for only 90 days. I was given two 90 day extensions and then an extension for the balance of the first year, dated from when I entered the country.

Expect 30 days between the application and the approval, ie. two trips to immigration to allow for processing. After that, extensions can be obtained from any immigration office.

If you anticipate leaving Thailand on occasion in the forthcoming year, it is suggested that you obtain, at the time you apply for your retirement classification, a single or multiple re-entry permit. Once you have your retirement classification and leave the Kingdom, you lose your visa classification and must obtain another visa unless you have a re-entry permit. There is some information to suggest that for a retiree a single re-entry permit is the only one to get, as you lose the multiple re-entry permit after the first exit. I have no personal experience in this regard, as I have always just obtained singles.

I will be happy to answer any specific questions you may still have regarding retirement classifications if you want to PM me or post it.

CAVEAT: Individual discretion is always a factor with immigration police officers, so don’t be shocked if you are required to do other things or produce other documents. Remember, your there to do whatever is required by the individual officer to get your long stay classification. Humility goes a long way and feigning ignorance, even stupidity, will engender sympathy and a helpful attitude on the part of the immigration officer, to the point that he will actually help you to take care of the “problem”.

After sending me back to my bank for more detailed information in my bank letter, the immigration officer still wanted more and “volunteered” to obtain it by fax from the bank. Why he didn’t offer that at first, suggests that he was impressed with my attitude and willingness to do whatever was required and once seeing that, “volunteered” to help.

[lopburi3]

I am new to this forum so please bear with me. My wife (Thai born - American citizen) and I (American) are planning to retire in Thailand in Feb '05. We will both retire 12/31/04, she from the private sector, me from combination military & government career. I will be 59 y/o at the time of my retirement, my wife 56. I will be receiving a pension for life. We are in good shape financially. We have already established a Thai bank account. Neither of us plans to work in Thailand. Can somone please explain to us how we should proceed re: obtaining the correct visa for our situation.

You got the long and detailed answer from PTE so would just add that you have a choice. You can go the retirement or the support Thai wife route.

1. Long stay 800k in bank/medical certificate but available immediately or within a couple of days. No work allowed.

2. Support 400k in bank/wife verify each time and about six weeks wait for final approval.

One thing that can be a concern is timing as you are tied to the same dates each year to be here for extension and final approval stamps.

As said wife should get Thai passport if she has let it lapse and ID card. Thailand has no laws preventing dual citizenship. With this she can buy land if you want as the old restrictions have been removed.

[dseawarrior]

Kawp kuhn mak to ProThaiExPat!

What a great summary you wrote about the whole process!

I totally agree with your caveat. I believe that "attitude is everything" but especially in Thailand...

[CAVEAT: Individual discretion is always a factor with immigration police officers, so don’t be shocked if you are required to do other things or produce other documents. Remember, your there to do whatever is required by the individual officer to get your long stay classification. Humility goes a long way and feigning ignorance, even stupidity, will engender sympathy and a helpful attitude on the part of the immigration officer, to the point that he will actually help you to take care of the “problem”.]

The individual officers hold a great deal of power and they want to be assured that You are humble and sincere in your quest...

I discovered this same general principal last year as I was going through the fiancee visa process (for my Thai g-friend to visit the US). I got it done in what I felt was record time in 2 months! I felt that the trickiest part was definitely working with the Thai national consular officer at the US embassy in Bangkok. Thais are very concerned about whether you are "jing-jai". I think that the Thai perception of your "jing-jai" matters as much as your bank account balances and other "paperwork"...

Thanks again to ProThaiExPat for all the great information!

dseawarrior

will soon be moving to Chiang Mai

August 11, 2004

PS: I have some contacts for guest houses and such, but nothing definite yet... I am looking for a long-term rental... Any suggestions, please feel free to PM me as you like. Thanks!

[email protected]

[Roger13]

There is some information to suggest that for a retiree a single re-entry permit is the only one to get, as you lose the multiple re-entry permit after the first exit. I have no personal experience in this regard, as I have always just obtained singles.

Hi ProThaiExpat,

Congratulations & Thanks for the effort

made in making this very helpful Summary.

I have just refered 2 new potential retirees

in another post to read it.

Regarding the above Quote,

I have used a Multi Re-Entry Permit

with my Non Imm O Retiremet Extension

without any problem in the past.

However as I doubt that I will

leave the Kingdom more than twice

before my extension expiry date,

I intend applying for Single (Bht 1,000)

Re-entry Permits as required

rather than the (Bht 3,900) Multi. one.

Can I suggest you add to your Wonderful Summary

a word of warning about the O-A not being familiar to

Immigration Officers at point of entry who might

not be aware they should give a one year stay?

And that anyone not being given one year should politely

ask for a Senior officer to be refered to.

And should this not be forthcoming

there is a Window near the entrance of Immigration HQ

in Soi Suan Phlu where "mistakes" at the Airport can be corrected.

Maybe others have some more suggestions?

Then could we ask Admin to PIN a copy of your Summary

at the head of this Forum ... ?

Roger

[fdimike]

Thanks to all who contributed info to my question. I had no idea this was such a complicated question/procedure. I do not have any further questions at this time. However, my wife has some concerns over renewing her Thai passport. She is concerned that this will interfere with her receiving her Social Security income from the United States when she reaches 62. I suspect the Thai pasport will have no effect on her social security. Anyone have a similar experience so I can ease her concerns?

[JimGant]

my wife has some concerns over renewing her Thai passport. She is concerned that this will interfere with her receiving her Social Security income from the United States when she reaches 62.

Mike,

Not to worry. The US recognizes dual citizenship. She'll be entitled to all the SS she's earned, which would still be the case if she only had a 'green card.' (And, of course, she'll also have the 'privlege' of paying Fed taxes on up to 85% of this, as she would if residing in the US.)

My Thai-US wife initially entered Thailand for long stay purposes using her US passport. And it was a piece of cake to get a one year extension for her, as all she had to do is prove to Thai Immigration that she was a Thai national, which can be done even with expired ID Card and/or passport (Thai nationality, in this case, does not 'expire'). But the annual cost of 1900/3800 baht for extension/multiple reentry permit, plus the inconvenience of trudging to Immigration, wasn't worth it.

I mention the above in case your wife doesn't have her Thai passport renewed prior to heading across the pond. Also, my wife entered Thailand with a 30-day 'no visa required' stamp, from which she got her one year extension, an option only available to Thai nationals.

But if this forum teaches anything, it's that there is no consistency with Thai immigration rules. So, what worked for my wife may not for yours. Thus, best to get her Thai passport renewed.

[Mr Red]

She is concerned that this will interfere with her receiving her Social Security income from the United States when she reaches 62.  I suspect the Thai pasport will have no effect on her social security.  Anyone have a similar experience so I can ease her concerns?

fdimike -- check out http://www.ssa.gov/, under "Questions About" on this page, select "International Issues". Should answer all your questions.

Let me know how it turns out -- my wife and I are in a situation that is almost identical to yours, but we are retiring a bit farther out.

Good luck!

[JimGant]

Lopburi,

but available immediately or within a couple of days

Does this appear to be the rule rather than the exception? If so, it would seem the 'come back in 30 days' for the marriage extension has something to do with confirming one's marriage bonafides(?).

However, it would seem some getting 'retirement extensions' also have gotten the 'come back in 30 days,' which appears to be PTE's (above) experience.

The less hassle just might be worth the extra 400k required in the bank.........

[lopburi3]

Lopburi,

but available immediately or within a couple of days

Does this appear to be the rule rather than the exception? If so, it would seem the 'come back in 30 days' for the marriage extension has something to do with confirming one's marriage bonafides(?).

However, it would seem some getting 'retirement extensions' also have gotten the 'come back in 30 days,' which appears to be PTE's (above) experience.

The less hassle just might be worth the extra 400k required in the bank.........

Not on retirement so can't say for sure but from what I have read people say they get stamp on same day or next day for retirement type. I can say support type has always been a 6 weeks later return for me. Several years ago had about 700k in account and was asked if we had another account as she could then stamp us without a return. But this year it was well over 800k and got the same 6 week return.

This really is a pain when the time is during the travel months so agree that it might be a valid consideration for those with a choice.

Believe PTE was quoting another's experience in changing visa types rather than the normal long stay extension procedure.

[JimGant]

Lop,

Yeah, I do recall one guy who got his retirement extension in one or two days, plus he got it only a few days after arrival!

Which reminds me, what's your take on not having to wait until the last 30 days of your entry permit to apply for an extension?

Pretty soon, with all the inputs on this forum, you'll be able to do probability tables of x,y, or z happening for every given service at each Immigration office It really is amazing the amount of discretion each officer -- and office -- has. But, that can work in your favor -- I just haven't figured out how many bottles of Scotch it takes.....

[Roger13]

Lopburi,

but available immediately or within a couple of days

However, it would seem some getting 'retirement extensions' also have gotten the 'come back in 30 days,' which appears to be PTE's (above) experience.

My First two years applying for Retirement extension

I was given an initial 30 day extension.

A few years ago the Officer said

- I will give you one year immediately

this time - and has done so ever since

- usually takes 5 or 10 minutes

depending how much chatting they do

with you or other officers ...

That's at Suan Phlu in Bangkok.

Roger

[lopburi3]

Which reminds me, what's your take on not having to wait until the last 30 days of your entry permit to apply for an extension?

This used to be in writing on one of the old immigration web sites but recently, at least when you have the money in the bank, they seem to be able to make exceptions. Don't believe anything is involved other than 'why not do it now' as you are there and ready. Service rather than confrontation.

[astral]

A few years ago the Officer said

- I will give you one year immediately

this time - and has done so ever since

- usually takes 5 or 10 minutes

depending how much chatting they do

with you or other officers ...

That's at Suan Phlu in Bangkok.

That is the secret. At Suan Phlu it is quick

Out in the sticks it takes 6 weeks as the papers have to go to Bangkok for approval.

[JimGant]

My First two years applying for Retirement extension

I was given an initial 30 day extension.

A few years ago the Officer said

- I will give you one year immediately

this time - and has done so ever since

- usually takes 5 or 10 minutes

depending how much chatting they do

with you or other officers ...

That's at Suan Phlu in Bangkok.

Thanks, Roger, for that input.

Can anyone using Chiang Mai Immigration share their experience?

Much obliged.

[ProThaiExpat]

My last yearly retirement extention in late Mya 2004 took less that an hour in Chiang Mai, if you subtract the time my three visits to the photocopier required by each immigration officer handling the application requiring different pages copied. Best to copy ALL pages of your passport before you hand in your application, and sign each photocopy.

Prior posting is correct that 30 day extentions the first time and return in 30 days for new visa are only on the first application when visa is changed from tourist to non-immigrant 0. Speculating that processing, including, perhaps involving MFA, might be involved.

[ProThaiExpat]

Roger13: Thanks for your caveat regarding O-A at airport, I "canned" you word for word in the "summary" with attribution, hope you don't mind.

[noBuzz]

Hi.

Is it true that i can go to the immis ofice in bkk to apply for my o-visa (marriage)?

I thought i would have to go abroad to get it.

An immo told me this at poipet last weekend.

If i have to go abroad, where's the best place to go? (dont want to go back to Europe)

/NoBuzz

[lopburi3]

It is best to start a new thread when you have a question.

If you have a valid visa now (60 day tourist?) you can qualify for extension of stay for support of Thai wife you can just go to immigration and get it changed at the same time you apply for TM.7 extension.

I do not believe they will change your visa to O unless you have paperwork for extension and they can not change an entry without visa.

Penang is normally the best place to obtain a visa from Consulate and you will need marriage certificate/copy, and copy of wife ID card (or better take her with you).

[noBuzz]

Hey Lopburi3.

I've posted questions relating to the O-visa in this thread before and thought it appropriate to continue in the same thread. But I'll make sure to make new posts in new threads hereafter.

Thanx for your answer.

I'm on a 30-day visa. I've done visaruns to Poipet every month for 6 months.

If i have to go abroad, why did the immo at Poipet say i could go to bkk and get the o-visa?

Or are you saying i should first get an extension of my 30-day Touristvisa for support of wife, and then change the status to O here?

Best reagards,

NoBuzz

[lopburi3]

A tourist visa is 60 days for most people and if you have just been doing border crossings you do not have any visa. I do not believe Bangkok will issue an O visa on that basis but you can try. If you can meet extension support requirements (or have reasonable ability to in the near future) you might have a chance. If not I highly doubt it.

The normal thing to do after marriage is to go to Penang for a non immigrant O visa.

Then the future comes into question but perhaps you have that planned.

To stay in Thailand requires more than marriage and a 90 day visa in case you do not have plans made.