Non-OA retirement extension and insurance

[Sheryl]

No. To extend on medical grounds you would need a letter from the hosputal stating you are admitted to the hospital and completely unable to travel. Your situation won't likely meet this criteria and further having such a n extension might eaise a red flag to insurers.

 

Medical extensions when granted are usually for 30 days.

 

If you go through a broker as suggested you should be able to get the policy in time. You tell them when your extension is due and they will help push it through. As you are under the age at which medical exam is tequired that saves some time.

[Peter Denis]

26 minutes ago, Lim Yuan Hai said:

If so, what are the requirements and how long visa will I get, can my wife also get the same duration of stay visa as assistant because I have to walk with 2 crutches?

Hi Lim Yuan Hai,

Is your wife a thai national?

If so, the solution is simple > When your extension of stay of your original OA Visa is due, apply for reason of MARRIAGE (instead of for reason of RETIREMENT).  The requirements are different, but an extension for reason of MARRIAGE does NOT require health-insurance.  And of course the lower financials to be proven (400K in the bank instead of 800K when using the money in bank method, or 40.000 THB instead of 65.000 THB when using the income method), are a nice bonus too.

[Momofarang]

2 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

Just change visas as many other have done.

16 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

I compiled a comprehensive roadmap to switch from a Non Imm OA - retirement Visa to a Non Imm O - retirement one, addressing all issues and options

 

I can't understand that grown up people can ignore the fact that Non-O and Non-OA cannot coexist with differing requirements regarding health insurance. They will fix it one way or the other, and in the current anti-farang context my natural pessimism leads me to think it will be "the other".

 

1 hour ago, 4MyEgo said:

Well done, now there is someone who thinks outside the square and looks for loop holes in the system, let's just hope they don't spread this madness to other visa/extensions, or at least grandfather them so current expats are secure.

As I said above the "spread" has a good chance to happen. Therefore for someone in my situation, 67 with a couple of pre-existings, it would be wise to get the extra useless cover for about one percent of my income. I am already spending 8.5% on health covers for the whole family anyway. And I don't believe they will accept existing covers in any near future as there is way too much money to made from the existing scheme/scam. This is what drives me mad, as the requirement for HI is totally legitimate but they implement their policy in their totally frakked up Thai way.

 

[Momofarang]

20 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

Hi Lim Yuan Hai,

Is your wife a thai national?

If so, the solution is simple > When your extension of stay of your original OA Visa is due, apply for reason of MARRIAGE (instead of for reason of RETIREMENT).  The requirements are different, but an extension for reason of MARRIAGE does NOT require health-insurance.  And of course the lower financials to be proven (400K in the bank instead of 800K when using the money in bank method, or 40.000 THB instead of 65.000 THB when using the income method), are a nice bonus too.

Peter, by now everyone would know that Non-O or move to "Thai wife extension" are a good stop gap measures. But probably not enough in the medium/long term.

 

Thanks for your efforts anyway.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Momofarang

[Peter Denis]

27 minutes ago, Momofarang said:

I can't understand that grown up people can ignore the fact that Non-O and Non-OA cannot coexist with differing requirements regarding health insurance. They will fix it one way or the other, and in the current anti-farang context my natural pessimism leads me to think it will be "the other".

In my opinion they will not 'fix' it anytime soon and also make health-insurance mandatory for the Non Imm O - retirement Visa. 

There are several other reasons for my opinion, but consider the following:  A Non Imm O Visa is a 90-day Visa, and that would therefore imply that insurance-companies would issue 90-day health-insurance policies, which is highly unlikely.  And I cannot believe they would force a 1-year policy on a 90-day Visa.

Also when making it mandatory for Non Imm O - retirement Visas, they would have to take into consideration that in doing so they 'blocked' the last remaining escape-road for OA - retirement Visa holders over the age of 75, or with pre-existing conditions as these categories cannot get any of the thai-approved health-insurance policies on offer now. 

So if they go that road, they would have to take this into consideration and not enforce it in the incommunicado bulldozer way they mishandled the present farce.

Be assured that they are well aware that the present debacle is a total failure, and that having it slowly fizzle out and not continue on the March of Folly is somewhat of a 'face-saver'.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Peter Denis

[4MyEgo]

38 minutes ago, Momofarang said:

And I don't believe they will accept existing covers in any near future as there is way too much money to made from the existing scheme/scam. This is what drives me mad, as the requirement for HI is totally legitimate but they implement their policy in their totally frakked up Thai way.

That leaves me with two options.

 

1) Cancel my current policy which covers my pre-existing condition and exit Thailand to return to my homeland where health insurance is free in the public sector (Medicare), which also gives me the option to take out private cover which covers my pre-existing condition

 

or

 

2) Keep my current policy here and pay the usual 60,000 baht per annum, plus increases when it suits them to raise the annual premium as they just did my families cover by 15%, so I cancelled it, and then take out the additional insurance cover that the Thai IO recognises and pay for the additional cover which is nothing short of ransom, of which I am sure I cannot have dual policies, i.e. one insurer might refuse to pay as I have cover with the other, and I know 99% sure Thai insurers won't cover pre-existing conditions.

 

Perhaps they might just wake up and see that non O/A visas have declined since they made it mandatory to get Thai health insurance, and if they make insurance mandatory for expats on other visas, they might recognise that some require overseas insurers to cover their pre-existing coverage whereas the Thai insurers won't insure them for their pre-existing conditions, if not, what then, does the expat end up in hospital suffering an event from a pre-existing condition that the Thai insurer doesn't cover, so who foots the bill then, back to square one, geniuses ! 

 

Edited December 23, 2019 by 4MyEgo

[4MyEgo]

18 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

A Non Imm O Visa is a 90-day Visa, and that would therefore imply that insurance-companies would issue 90-day health-insurance policies, which is highly unlikely.  And I cannot believe they would force a 1-year policy on a 90-day Visa.

From my understanding the one year extension is just that, a one year extension, on the proviso that you report every 90 days, whereby you are granted another 90 days within that one year extension date, and to update them of any changes to your circumstances in the reporting period, e.g. change of address etc etc.

Edited December 23, 2019 by 4MyEgo

[Chazar]

On 12/21/2019 at 5:27 PM, natway09 said:

1 guy committing suicide rather than spend their small nest egg on treatment (being left for his son) 

Why would you possibly NOT insure yourself ?

His  choice and id  want the same choice also, Id  rather leave my Wife the cash than spend it  all on whats inevitable anyway.

[Peter Denis]

38 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

From my understanding the one year extension is just that, a one year extension, on the proviso that you report every 90 days, whereby you are granted another 90 days within that one year extension date, and to update them of any changes to your circumstances in the reporting period, e.g. change of address etc etc.

That's correct.  But when issued the Non Imm OA Visa is valid for a full year.  The 90-day Non Imm O - retirement Visa however is only valid for 3 months, after which it can be extended for a full year.  Indeed, they could opt to make the health-insurance mandatory for the extension of the Non Imm O Visa.  

But my point is that it would be difficult to make it mandatory for the initial 90-day Non Imm O - retirement Visa.

And that would open the door to yet another loophole, i.e. exiting an re-entering Thailand at the end of the 90-day Non Imm O - retirement Visa, and re-applying.

But the above is of course speculation, and imo when thai authorities decide to enforce insurance on all tourist/alien categories, it will for sure be done in a different way than how they mishandled the present 'pilot' project. 

[maxcorrigan]

On 12/21/2019 at 9:13 PM, Mac98 said:

Because the pre-existing conditions loophole means you will not be covered for what is most likely to put you in hospital. You will have paid thousands of dollars for absolutely nothing. And if a retiree makes it to 75 he can't get insurance anyway. Offer a decent policy and i will buy it. They should have an inexpensive "catastrophic" policy that covers costs for anything and everything, but only for the part of those costs exceeding 200,000b. The hospital should collect your passport and not return it until your part of the bill has been paid.    

Exactly, some posters come up with these none thought out reasons for not having insurance, just try getting insured at 81 with existing conditions see what it costs if you can get it, and what you are covered for, as the swaying goes "words are cheap" the actual doing is somewhat different!

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, Peter Denis said:

That's correct.  But when issued the Non Imm OA Visa is valid for a full year.  The 90-day Non Imm O - retirement Visa however is only valid for 3 months, after which it can be extended for a full year.  Indeed, they could opt to make the health-insurance mandatory for the extension of the Non Imm O Visa.  

But my point is that it would be difficult to make it mandatory for the initial 90-day Non Imm O - retirement Visa.

And that would open the door to yet another loophole, i.e. exiting an re-entering Thailand at the end of the 90-day Non Imm O - retirement Visa, and re-applying.

But the above is of course speculation, and imo when thai authorities decide to enforce insurance on all tourist/alien categories, it will for sure be done in a different way than how they mishandled the present 'pilot' project. 

Sorry, but a little confused, because the way I read into these visas makes me see that the only difference between the two types of visas, is that the Non 'O/A' can only be applied for from overseas, and the Non 'O' can only be applied for here, i.e. you would enter Thailand on a tourist visa and then apply for the retirement extension for 12 months before the tourist visa expires.

 

Now if the above is correct, maybe a few people have been entering Thailand of the Non 'O/A' racked up some hospital bills and departed, yes paranoia lurkes, I mean it is a multi-entry visa after all, and these people can come and go as they please with no real concrete foundations here, maybe the Thai government have uncovered a scam where hospital bills have gone unpaid from people on Non 'O/A' visas, I did say paranoia lurkes. 

 

As I recall some time back immigration enforced the old rule for expats on retirement visas/extension to have either the 65,000 baht per month in their bank account to show 12 months continuous deposits when applying for the retirement extension or the 800,000 baht method in the bank 2 months prior to the application to extend, and to keep the money in the bank for 3 months after the extension was granted, this could have possibly eliminated the dud agents out there, I did say possibly, as it could make it harder to show the money bein gin the bank for the 3 months after, I don't know, not in that area of extension, but perhaps some could shed some light on this ?

 

The above might have been though up to go easy on retired expats, knowing that mandatory insurance would create a problem for a lot, besides, the retirees have been here for years/decades and have formed a concrete base living here and contributing to the economy and are mostly law abiding, who also pay their hospital bills.

 

Just food for thought.

 

Moving onto the marriage extension, possibly the same scenario, although half the amount required and no requirement to keep money in the account after the granting of the extension.

 

The above is starting to make sense to me, any thoughts ?  

 

A Thai retirement visa is available for foreign nationals over 50 years of age who wish to retire in Thailand. ... When applied for within Thailand it is officially known as a Non-Immigrant O-Long Stay Visa. When applied for outside of Thailand it is known as a Non-Immigrant OA-Long Stay Visa.

[Mr Smithy]

6 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Sorry, but a little confused, because the way I read into these visas makes me see that the only difference between the two types of visas, is that the Non 'O/A' can only be applied for from overseas,

The O/A visa is a multiple entry visa which, if used correctly allows for a 2 year stay.

[4MyEgo]

11 minutes ago, Mr Smithy said:

The O/A visa is a multiple entry visa which, if used correctly allows for a 2 year stay.

Thanks, I am assuming that the 'O/A' visa also has the usual 90 day reporting and annual renewal process and fee like the retirement and marriage extension have ?

[JohnHauser]

Found this at https://www.thaiembassy.com/travel/health-insurance-thailand-new-requirement-for-retirees.php

Does anyone have any prices for the 800k/40k min. insurance (see below) necessary for Non OA

 

Which companies participated in this scheme?

Here are some of the insurance companies that the applicants may obtain their health insurance to:

• Viriyan Insurance,
• Asia Insurance 1950,
• Thaivisa Insurance,
• Sompo Insurance,
• LMG Insurance,
• Thai Health Insurance,
• Navakij Insurance,
• Dhipaya Insurance,
• The Falcon Insurance,
• Pacific Cross Health Insurance,
• AXA Insurance,
• AETNA Health Insurance

[Mr Smithy]

6 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

'O/A' visa also has the usual 90 day reporting and annual renewal process

90 day reports are needed if 90+ days are spent in Thailand No visa can be renewed but an extension of stay can be applied for toward the end of any entry gained with an O/A visa.

[Kadilo]

3 hours ago, Momofarang said:

I can't understand that grown up people can ignore the fact that Non-O and Non-OA cannot coexist with differing requirements regarding health insurance. They will fix it one way or the other, and in the current anti-farang context my natural pessimism leads me to think it will be "the other".

 

As I said above the "spread" has a good chance to happen. Therefore for someone in my situation, 67 with a couple of pre-existings, it would be wise to get the extra useless cover for about one percent of my income. I am already spending 8.5% on health covers for the whole family anyway. And I don't believe they will accept existing covers in any near future as there is way too much money to made from the existing scheme/scam. This is what drives me mad, as the requirement for HI is totally legitimate but they implement their policy in their totally frakked up Thai way.

 

Agreed. People are only jumping through hoops to avoid the inevitable down the road whether we like it or not. 

[ubonjoe]

49 minutes ago, JohnHauser said:

Found this at https://www.thaiembassy.com/travel/health-insurance-thailand-new-requirement-for-retirees.php

Does anyone have any prices for the 800k/40k min. insurance (see below) necessary for Non OA

Why use a unofficial website for info.  From the bottom of that page. "This is NOT the official website of the Thai Embassy"

This site has info about the 400/40k baht minimum. https://longstay.tgia.org/home/companiesoa

[Peter Denis]

1 hour ago, 4MyEgo said:

Thanks, I am assuming that the 'O/A' visa also has the usual 90 day reporting and annual renewal process and fee like the retirement and marriage extension have ?

Once you are applying for an extension of stay the requirements and conditions for an extension based on an original OA Visa or based on an original O Visa (and be it for retirement or marriage), are exactly the same.

The ONLY difference being that since Oct 31, an extension of stay based on an original OA Visa for reason of retirement now requires meeting the thai-approved health-insurance requirement.

[4MyEgo]

2 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

Once you are applying for an extension of stay the requirements and conditions for an extension based on an original OA Visa or based on an original O Visa (and be it for retirement or marriage), are exactly the same.

The ONLY difference being that since Oct 31, an extension of stay based on an original OA Visa for reason of retirement now requires meeting the thai-approved health-insurance requirement.

Just wondering if you gave any thought to my previous reply at #71

 

I am just trying to understand why the Thai government singled out the 'O/A' visa to have mandatory health cover, perhaps some truth to my paranoia ? 

[Peter Denis]

11 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Just wondering if you gave any thought to my previous reply at #71

 

I am just trying to understand why the Thai government singled out the 'O/A' visa to have mandatory health cover, perhaps some truth to my paranoia ? 

No paranoia or conspiracy theories needed, its just plain incompetence for the largest part, topped off with laziness and greed, in designing and rolling-out the scheme.

Background being that the thai Ministry of Health signaled a considerable gap in payment of hospital bills by foreigners.  The Cabinet then urged a study 'on the proper procedures of mandatory health insurance to cover tourists and foreigners of all groups, in order to reduce the medical expenses among Thai hospitals.'

Of all possible groups and options, the group of OA - retirement Visa holders was singled out for the 'pilot project'.

Possible reasons, probably a combination of:

- a relatively small group would be affected, so well fitted for a pilot project,

- during the validity of their original OA Visa and permission of stay, which could be almost 2 years, holders were previously not required to meet any financial requirements in Thailand,

- parallels with the Non Imm O-X Visa schema. 

A proper evaluation of the pilot project will for sure show that the roll-out of the health-insurance requirement

for Non Imm OA - retirement Visas will have close to ZERO impact on non-paid hospital bills.

Back to the drawing-board for a proper all stakeholder-inclusive scheme would be the sensible thing to do, taking into consideration the negative consequences of this disastrous pilot.

 

 

 

[OJAS]

7 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Medical extensions when granted are usually for 30 days.

So does this really mean that medical extensions are, in practice, seldom granted for 90 days as stated in section 2.25 of Police Order 327/2557?

[JohnHauser]

2 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Why use a unofficial website for info.  From the bottom of that page. "This is NOT the official website of the Thai Embassy"

This site has info about the 400/40k baht minimum. https://longstay.tgia.org/home/companiesoa

Same list of Companies.

Where do you see the price list and 400/40k information?

[ubonjoe]

10 minutes ago, JohnHauser said:

Where do you see the price list and 400/40k information?

Click on the company's name and it takes you to their website.

[JohnHauser]

34 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Click on the company's name and it takes you to their website.

Thanks

Edited December 23, 2019 by JohnHauser

[Peter Denis]

56 minutes ago, JohnHauser said:

Same list of Companies.

Where do you see the price list and 400/40k information?

Yes, it's worthwhile to screen the coverage and costs of the policies that meet the thai-approved health-insurance requirement imposed by IO when applying for an extension based on your original Non Imm O Visa for reason of retirement.

Then you will discover the ridiculous coverage they provide and the equally ridiculous expensive annual premium they charge for that bogus health-insurance.

 

Fortunately there is a simple escape-route to avoid this bogus health-insurance scam.

Just exit Thailand (to 'kill' your Non Imm OA - retirement Visa), and return VisaExempt.  Then apply in the first week of your return at your local IO for a 90 days Non Imm O - retirement Visa (application must be done minimum 15 - some IOs require 21 - days before expiry of your permission to stay from that VE-entry).  In the last month of that 90 days Non Imm O - retirement Visa, apply for a 1 year extension of stay at that same local IO.  The requirements and conditions for extension of stay of an OA - retirement Visa and an O - retirement Visa are exactly same, except that the latter does NOT require health-insurance.

 

Note: I just PM-ed you the comprehensive roadmap I compiled to switch from a Non Imm OA - retirement Visa to a Non Imm O - retirement one, addressing all issues and options you may encounter.

It provides more detail on how to embark on the the steps outlined above.

 

[Sheryl]

You can also find a posted chart summarizing polucies and prices in a pinned thread in the Health Forum

[oldcpu]

12 hours ago, Momofarang said:

Therefore for someone in my situation, 67 with a couple of pre-existings, it would be wise to get the extra useless cover for about one percent of my income. I am already spending 8.5% on health covers for the whole family anyway. And I don't believe they will accept existing covers in any near future ...

 

IMHO it is unfortunate that those of us on a Type-OA with existing Health Insurance that exceeds any of the Insurance offered by the Thai approved Health Insurance companies, are being pressured to change our health insurance, if we wish to remain on a Type-OA visa + subsequent extensions.  

 

I'll be 66 in less than a month, no pre-existing health issues.  I do have significantly superior subsidised health insurance (>50% paid by organisation that I retired from) that comes with my pension, and will continue for the rest of my life (and my much younger wife's life), with a 'cap' on my monthly fee such that my health insurance payments do not increase in price as I get older (nor as my wife gets older when I do pass away).  Further, my health insurance also fully insures my wife - again, with requirements far exceeding the Thai specified in-patient/out-patient minimum. 

 

With this health insurance, my wife and I can go to the most expensive Thai hospitals if/as required, have our medical bills paid, which benefits those hospitals (and hence Thai people) as I in essence help fund those hospitals.  Getting good treatment from those hospitals also benefits my wife and myself.

 

My wife is Thai, so she is NOT using the Thai medical system, but rather my insurance pays for her, saving the Thai tax payer money.    Our marriage is registered in North America and Europe, but not registered in Thailand, as my wife did not want it registered here in Thailand (more on that below - and I also noted this in a separate Thai Visa thread). 

 

My choices are to either : (a) change my visa (which "may" be temporary if similar health insurance implications placed on other visas in the future), or

                                         (b) change my heath insurance to the Thai approved Insurance companies, which means I pay 2x or 3x as much, and only cover myself and not my wife (which in essence costs the Thai taxpayer more) and means I can not go to the best hospitals, or

                                         (c) pressure my Thai wife to agree to register our marriage here in Thailand so I don't have to prove our far superior health insurance.

 

Obviously I am working on (c), but so far my wife is not keen on such. 

 

Still, IMHO its unfortunate that the current views (from what I have read) in posts/stories on this forum,  suggest that superior international health insurance is not likely to be accepted, despite the Thai Certificate of Foreign Insurance being completed.  I believe this is probably true that superior foreign insurance may not accepted. 

 

Why? 

 

I believe because it is deemed too difficult for Thai immigration officials to verify the international insurance (in a foreign language) presented to them.  How can they be certain the insurance is as good as it is claimed to be, if they can't read the insurance documents? Its far easier to verify insurance on an already validated list. 

 

Edited December 23, 2019 by oldcpu

[Momofarang]

9 hours ago, oldcpu said:

I believe because it is deemed too difficult for Thai immigration officials to verify the international insurance (in a foreign language) presented to them.  How can they be certain the insurance is as good as it is claimed to be, if they can't read the insurance documents? Its far easier to verify insurance on an already validated list. 

I don't blame immigration, it is the MoH who should provide, an "Insurance certification office". This could have been achieved easily. At Bumrungrad or Bangkok hospital they have easy access into my Insurance details and accept this as guarantee before admission. A similar setup could be used by MoH to issue certificates to be handed over to Immigration. They don't want to do it because there is no money to be made from it. T.I.T once more.

[ubonjoe]

11 hours ago, oldcpu said:

(c) pressure my Thai wife to agree to register our marriage here in Thailand so I don't have to prove our far superior health insurance.

Obviously I am working on (c), but so far my wife is not keen on such. 

What is her reason for not doing it?

Doing it has no repercussions for her. She can keep her maiden name if she wants to. No problem to buy land or houses.

 

[Peter Denis]

11 hours ago, oldcpu said:

My choices are to either : (a) change my visa (which "may" be temporary if similar health insurance implications placed on other visas in the future), or

                                         (b) change my heath insurance to the Thai approved Insurance companies, which means I pay 2x or 3x as much, and only cover myself and not my wife (which in essence costs the Thai taxpayer more) and means I can not go to the best hospitals, or

                                         (c) pressure my Thai wife to agree to register our marriage here in Thailand so I don't have to prove our far superior health insurance.

Hi, obviously option (c) is the preferred route to go for you.  Note: When you are using the 800K money in bank method to prove your financials when applying for an extension of stay, switching to reason of marriage when your extension is due, will have the advantage of halving that requirement, and freeing 400K THB.  Such a Bonus might convince your wife to register your marriage also in Thailand.

Option (b) is definitely out > it would be madness to dump your present generous health-insurance policy, for the expensive and basically worthless bogus thai-approved health-insurance scam.

When you consider option (a), just PM me and I will send you a comprehensive roadmap to embark on the surprisingly easy and not expensive OA > O transition.