Illogical Thailand

[jing jing]

You might be interested to know that I voted for Bush twice.

What a surprise, ehh?

And Dakhar, I did say "majority of Thai women you guys have". Sorry I didn't highlight the word "majority" for you.

TG, I see you've got another couple of mental giants on the line here. How do you find the patience to debate these folks? A two-time Bush voter and a fella who's obsessed with the dimensions of male genitalia....

As for the OP, why generalize about an entire population from the bizarre behavior of one individual? Can't you just for a moment put yourself in the shoes of the poor underpaid schmuck who has to deal with the less than pleasant characters that comprise a large proportion of the farang tourist population in Bangkok? Wouldn't it irk you if day in and day out you had to haggle over 50 baht with all manner of obnoxious, sloppy, foul-smelling punters who, by coincidence of birth in a country with a currency worth 70 times as much as the local one, believe they are some sort of superior race? Throw an obligatory tattoed rental girlfriend into the mix and that'll impress the locals even more, right?

And what does any of this have to do with Thai logic, or the lack thereof?

It's the cultural differences that attracted many people to Thailand in the first place, so why do those same people then turn around and lament the fact that Thai people often see things differently than westerners?

After spending a year or two in country is it really so difficult to figure out how things work here, or why Thai people sometimes act the way they do?

If you think dealing with Thai people is challenging, imagine how an arrogant foreign person who couldn't speak any English might get treated in many areas of Texas or Mississippi, and you'll realize how tolerant and accomodating the Thai people really are. As for their logic, well..... maybe you need to think outside the western box a little bit to understand it, but rest assured there are reasons behind everybody's behaviour even though they may not be immediately obvious to the casual observer.

[Bananaman]

Lots of interesting opinions on this subject, although all this crap about racism is way off from the OP's initial point. I would have to agree that the minds of many Thais appear highly illogical to us however for the majority of the time this illogicality can either be easily ignored or doesn't impinge on daily comings and goings in any way. Seeing Thais out at midday riding motorbikes one handed with the other hand desperately trying to shield their eyes from the sun, begs the question why oh why doesn't the thought enter their heads that the minimal investment of B100 for a pair of sunglasses could make life a whole lot easier? The fact is however that as long as those characters riding along like that don't come careering into me then I can happily just ignore it because it affects my life not one iota. Thought about in this way you realise that this bizarre sense of logic is predominantly disadvantageous to the individuals who possess it. I was at a ladies clothes shop one occassion with the missus and the shop owner point blank refused to let my partner try a top on, even over the top she was already wearing. I politely informed her that if she allowed GF to try the top, there was a 50-50 chance at least that we would buy it while not letting her try it created a 100% chance of us not buying it. The shop owner just shrugged and came back with the usual "mai dai" response hence we left and went to buy clothes elsewhere. I was inclined to get annoyed by the situation but just figured what was the point cos the only person who really lost out was the vendor.

[mrt273nva]

it seems that many people are disturbed by the fact that i am not thai. i apologize to those that are bothered by my eagerness to understand a culture and a way of thought so that i can avoid problems in the future. my goal is to minimize incidents such as the CD shop as much as possible.

i am generalizing about a population and that also angers many people. i must generalize about thais because it is physically impossible for me to meet and get to know every single thai that exists. i believe it would be benificial to myself and to the thai people i come across if i have a better idea of where they are coming from.

if anyone can argue about my logic behind this please let me know what the flaws are. i am curious to find out why people are upset about me wanting to better understand the culture and the people with whom i share this great country.

[PeaceBlondie]

TG, I see you've got another couple of mental giants on the line here. How do you find the patience to debate these folks? A two-time Bush voter and a fella who's obsessed with the dimensions of male genitalia.... .........

If you think dealing with Thai people is challenging, imagine how an arrogant foreign person who couldn't speak any English might get treated in many areas of Texas or Mississippi, and you'll realize how tolerant and accomodating the Thai people really are. As for their logic, well..... maybe you need to think outside the western box a little bit to understand it, but rest assured there are reasons behind everybody's behaviour even though they may not be immediately obvious to the casual observer.

jing jing, at the risk of being accused of being obsessed with the dimensions of male genitalia (my ex wife had huge mammaries), your comments about 'many areas of Texas' raised a red flag, especially comparing it to Mississippi. Why, even out in West Texas, we had one of them furrniners, born in New England, who went on to get two of them there Ivy League degrees, plus a fake accent. Texas is full of foreigners (I lived among thousands of them), and last I heard, Juan Armando from Chiapas was working in....Mississippi.

Anyway, interesting topic. As I think you pointed out jing jing, we long-termers came to Thailand for the culture. I didn't even come here for the dimensions of....you know.

Nevertheless, I am still baffled at times by the Thai way of thinking. They do think, but I can't figure it out. Maybe that's because I got my degree in..... Texas.

[cclub75]

if anyone can argue about my logic behind this please let me know what the flaws are. i am curious to find out why people are upset about me wanting to better understand the culture and the people with whom i share this great country.

Don't be sorry. Your quest looks perfectly... logical and legitimate.

Some immatures people, thai pasionarias and/or ideologists, don't agree here. Why bother ?

You should ignore them.

[helicoptor]

I would like to add a story on this thread

We ordered a baby cot from a Bangkok company who offered to assemble the cot at our home at no extra cost, once inside the house they proceed to assemble the cot OUTSIDE the bedroom in which it was going to be placed.

Almost straight away I noticed that the head of the cot was wider than the door frame, I pointed this out to the guy by saying, 'Will you be able to fit it through the door?'

Answer = 'Not sure'

Did he check at this point? No, he carried on assembling the cot, once finished sure enough as he attempted to push the cot through the door it was about 100mm wider so no can do.

I had the 'right said fred, av a cuppa tea' song ringing in my head at this point.

So, he disassembled, and re-assembled INSIDE the bedroom

20 minute job that took an hour

[Dakhar]

That story, is one of the best examples of the type of logic that is used in this area of the world.

Thank you.

[Mid]

Reactive ,

not

Proactive .

[helicoptor]

Reactive ,

not

Proactive .

Well put

[think_too_mut]

That story, is one of the best examples of the type of logic that is used in this area of the world.

Thank you.

The story is an example of poor skills and technical culture of an individual, could happen anywhere and is no reflection of daily life in Thailand.

After living and working in Asia for many years, I find hardly anything illogical any more.

Simply, that's how things are done or not done.

[canuckamuck]

After living and working in Asia for many years, I find hardly anything illogical any more.

Simply, that's how things are done or not done.

Do You mean you have become numb from exposure, or that you now do things the long and difficult way because that is how its done?

[OlRedEyes]

My current take on thailand is it is suffering from deep-seated fear. Fear of being swamped, an inability to compete globally, a perceived inability to raise the standard to compete equally. Especially amongst the young. This leads not to a superiority complex, but an inferiority complex. Arrogance is normally an indicator of this as well.

Fear and frustration leads to quick explosions of total violence and substance abuse. Realistically, can anyone see thailand competing with the rest of the world in the next couple of generations? What's the future for the young? With an education system and culture churning out virtually useless degrees; cheap labour for the rest of the world? What's the options? Retracting within itself? Cannot really be done anymore, can it.

Their elders are failing them, but it is easier to blame foreigners. I think thailand is heading towards major upheaval, it's caught between a rock and a hard place. Serious cracks in society are opening up, and cannot be smoothed over anymore as it was in isolation.

The constant, rather desperate grabbing at straws, creating instant 'hubs' is evidence of panic, IMHO.

I see no courage to start taking the necessary (long-term) steps for thailand to raise itself to compete globally. And in a few short years, the stitching is going to come loose in a big way.

Not bashing. An opinion that truly saddens me.

[think_too_mut]

After living and working in Asia for many years, I find hardly anything illogical any more.

Simply, that's how things are done or not done.

Do You mean you have become numb from exposure, or that you now do things the long and difficult way because that is how its done?

Neither. Before, when I see something stupid, inefficient or dangerous, I would just ask myself : "Is this possible in the West". So many times times it was "yes" that I don't bother any more.

When it was "No", it inevitably boiled down to the primitivism that has saddled the poor across the globe, mostly in poor countries of Asia, Africa and Eastern Europe.

Simply, I would keep the distance or quickly overtake an overladen rattling truck in Thailand as I would in Turkey or in Papua New Guinea.

[WaiWai]

I see no courage to start taking the necessary (long-term) steps for thailand to raise itself to compete globally. And in a few short years, the stitching is going to come loose in a big way.

Not bashing. An opinion that truly saddens me.

I, too, think you may be right, OlRedEyes.

And this is not the case with Asian neighbours with cultures that are similar in many ways.

What, then, are the peculiarly Thai characteristics that have brought this situation about ?

Edited April 6, 2007 by WaiWai

[Dakhar]

I see no courage to start taking the necessary (long-term) steps for thailand to raise itself to compete globally. And in a few short years, the stitching is going to come loose in a big way.

Not bashing. An opinion that truly saddens me.

I, too, think you may be right, OlRedEyes.

And this is not the case with Asian neighbours with cultures that are similar in many ways.

What, then, are the peculiarly Thai characteristics that have brought this situation about ?

I think the refusal to "open their eyes" and learn from their neighbors is an issue. The Thai mantra is, "This is the way it has always been done." Well that may be the case, but the world is changeing and Thailand tries its best to hold on to what it was, rather than what it could be (as long as it accpets change). I met with a dean the other day, and she did not even have an E-mail address!

When I lived in Tiawan around 15 years ago it was evident that cheap labor was drying up. I was concerned about Tiawan's future... but they adapted, and turned itself into more a high technology production country rather than mfg. just about anything possible.

I imagine, Tiawan looked toward Singapore for their sollution.... that is only a guess, but I think a fair one at that. They have some similarities, strong education system, limited land, dense population etc.

Thailand seems to only look "down" down on foriengers of any kind. Rather than looking for sollutions that foreingers have already found to be prudent. Sad really, when you have Singapore, Taiwan, China etc all setting examples on how to pull out of harsh conditions and rise above.

[canuckamuck]

I, too, think you may be right, OlRedEyes.

And this is not the case with Asian neighbours with cultures that are similar in many ways.

What, then, are the peculiarly Thai characteristics that have brought this situation about ?

This is an excellent question, goes right to the root.

I have wondered this myself, and something that is different about Thailand is that it has kept its sovereignty (at least if you quickly flip past a portion of WW2) for as long as they have basically had their current geography, more than 400 years anyway. This has kept them free from the big chip on their shoulder that all their neighbors have. But the lack of colonization has also left Thailand a bit short of the innovation brought by the European cultures of the time. If Cambodia and Vietnam hadn’t been got sucked in by Marxism, they would have dominated the economy of Indo-China by now. Simply by the benefit of a superior education method that was instituted by the colonials. Malaysia is a good comparison.

[OlRedEyes]

I see no courage to start taking the necessary (long-term) steps for thailand to raise itself to compete globally. And in a few short years, the stitching is going to come loose in a big way.

Not bashing. An opinion that truly saddens me.

I, too, think you may be right, OlRedEyes.

And this is not the case with Asian neighbours with cultures that are similar in many ways.

What, then, are the peculiarly Thai characteristics that have brought this situation about ?

Too big a question to give my full opinion on here, would need too many references and too many pages. Isolation is a big factor, yes.

I wouldn't say many other Asian countries are on a much better road either. The Phils is a case in point. Started going well then went rapidly south. IMHO China is in for a mighty rough ride as well. Vietnam is already showing signs of following in the Phillipines' footsteps, after having been granted entry into the WTO.

I think the problem Asia in general has is the culture of control. Japan did well after being brought to it's knees in WWII by starting off producing cheap goods as a basis, then improving it's *technical* education in order to produce quality. China is trying to follow it's footsteps, with a far greater pool of labour. The critical constraint Asia has is the lack of individual creativity, free speech and free thought that is *absolutely necessary* to take any leading role except to become the factory of the world. And the powers in control don't want that freedom as it will destroy their control.

Which bodes well for the western economies, based on innovation.

The brain is similar to the body in that exercising certain aspects of it, strengthens those functions. Asia has a culture of following, not individual creativity. Even most of it's art is representation, not interpretation. The breakthrough in the west was the promotion of individuality. That is why free speech is so important.

Where would the middle east have been if it did not sit on a sea of oil. Similar culture of control.

[thaired]

Indirectly what you are referring to is 'culture shock' and is not limited to Thailand.

i'll have a look at those links but cuture shock is usually favored. i feel at home out of my element.

i think what got me was an incident today that has never happened to me in the LOS. i was in a CD shop with my friend looking for some music. the lady in the shop was friendly and played a cd at my request to see if it was the same title i was looking for. a large thai man came in the shop and turned off the music before it was even 10 seconds into playing. i explained to him that i wanted to hear the cd to make sure it was the right one. he was persistent in not allowing me to hear the cd. fair enough i thought, i told him i won't buy that cd. this is where everything went wrong. he exploded on me going off on a rant about how farang walk around saying what ever they want and doing whatever they want. he started saying that just because farang have money they do what they want. i turned to my friend and said, "lets not buy anything here". he then started cussing me out. i don't know where he learned all these vulgarities but it was loud and obsene. i tried to find his logic and there was none. i explained to him in thai that i live down the street, i'm not the evil farang that he had in his mind. he cursed me some more. again in thai i said that he was speaking very bad. i called him crazy and left. the rest of the day i have been baffeled by this single incident. that got me thinking about thailand and all the similar instances that have happened over the last year and a half here.

most my time here is great but every once in a while i get a bit freaked out.

Obviously your an has had a run in before with a rich farang who said & did exactly as he pleased....logical or not ?

[qwertz]

Nice one, redeyes.

[Buckwheat]

Please keep it on topic and stop the personal "back and forth".

Thanks

[mrt273nva]

Indirectly what you are referring to is 'culture shock' and is not limited to Thailand.

i'll have a look at those links but cuture shock is usually favored. i feel at home out of my element.

i think what got me was an incident today that has never happened to me in the LOS. i was in a CD shop with my friend looking for some music. the lady in the shop was friendly and played a cd at my request to see if it was the same title i was looking for. a large thai man came in the shop and turned off the music before it was even 10 seconds into playing. i explained to him that i wanted to hear the cd to make sure it was the right one. he was persistent in not allowing me to hear the cd. fair enough i thought, i told him i won't buy that cd. this is where everything went wrong. he exploded on me going off on a rant about how farang walk around saying what ever they want and doing whatever they want. he started saying that just because farang have money they do what they want. i turned to my friend and said, "lets not buy anything here". he then started cussing me out. i don't know where he learned all these vulgarities but it was loud and obsene. i tried to find his logic and there was none. i explained to him in thai that i live down the street, i'm not the evil farang that he had in his mind. he cursed me some more. again in thai i said that he was speaking very bad. i called him crazy and left. the rest of the day i have been baffeled by this single incident. that got me thinking about thailand and all the similar instances that have happened over the last year and a half here.

most my time here is great but every once in a while i get a bit freaked out.

Obviously your an has had a run in before with a rich farang who said & did exactly as he pleased....logical or not ?

you are asking about a logic of a rich farang that has caused a thai man to parades around with gold around his neck, wrists, and fingers screaming about rude farang. people talk about thais saving face, but this man had none. it was really quite sad to see. i felt bad for the sweet thai girl that was just watching her boss treat their customers like shit.

in the customer service industry you come across rude people all the time, but you must brush it off rather than take it out on your customers. not a very logical way to run a business is it...

Edited April 6, 2007 by mrt273nva

[think_too_mut]

The critical constraint Asia has is the lack of individual creativity, free speech and free thought that is *absolutely necessary* to take any leading role except to become the factory of the world. And the powers in control don't want that freedom as it will destroy their control.

Why is it "* absolutely necessary*".

IMO, it is not needed or is genuinly unwanted in many places in Asia.

India is not only a democracy, it's the world's biggest one. Still, economically, it is where China was in 1975.

Japan is a democracy set by Americans but 1 party has ruled it since Americans left. The whole generation of Japanese that is about to retire this and next year has worked hard and made Japan world's second largest economy. Still, that whole generation is dubbed "generation waiting on instructions".

While American civil aviation is developed world's worst and is almost blanket bankrupt, Cathay Pacific and Singapore Airlines, from 2 quasi or openly non-democratic city-states are the finest in the sky.

For some people and mindset western style democracy is not necessary. If implemented, it is deformed (voluntarily, like in Japan or in Thailand) to fit local traditions, habits and customs.

Just ask America how it is going about bringing "*absolutely necessary*" democracy to Iraq and Middle East.

[meadish_sweetball]

Several off-topic posts erased to make the topic stay on track.

Any more off-topic bickering will render suspensions.

Stay on topic please.

[canuckamuck]

The critical constraint Asia has is the lack of individual creativity, free speech and free thought that is *absolutely necessary* to take any leading role except to become the factory of the world. And the powers in control don't want that freedom as it will destroy their control.

Why is it "* absolutely necessary*".

IMO, it is not needed or is genuinly unwanted in many places in Asia.

India is not only a democracy, it's the world's biggest one. Still, economically, it is where China was in 1975.

Japan is a democracy set by Americans but 1 party has ruled it since Americans left. The whole generation of Japanese that is about to retire this and next year has worked hard and made Japan world's second largest economy. Still, that whole generation is dubbed "generation waiting on instructions".

While American civil aviation is developed world's worst and is almost blanket bankrupt, Cathay Pacific and Singapore Airlines, from 2 quasi or openly non-democratic city-states are the finest in the sky.

For some people and mindset western style democracy is not necessary. If implemented, it is deformed (voluntarily, like in Japan or in Thailand) to fit local traditions, habits and customs.

Just ask America how it is going about bringing "*absolutely necessary*" democracy to Iraq and Middle East.

India has the most people living in a democracy, that is not necessarily an advantage. They have a culture that is paralyzed by living in the past. Their clothes, their music, their food continues to be exactly the same as it was 50 years ago. Even their new cars have a 30 year old design. They can’t stomach any variation. It is the most uncreative place in the world.

Japan did well as a factory state that had good business skills. It will continue to be strong based on their financial savvy.

Cathay Pacific was started by an American; Singapore airlines, by the Brits.

Good business practice sustains them today.

Virtually all Major inventions of the last 200 years have come out of free thinking societies with a Judeo Christian background.

Logic is a result of flexing your imagination to perceive potential results. Uncreative societies are handicapped in logic.

[Naam]

India is not only a democracy, it's the world's biggest one.

India a democracy? were 30% of the votes are bought from villagers for a mere 100 rupees and/or the village elders tell them how to vote? tell us one more joke please.

[longway]

Indirectly what you are referring to is 'culture shock' and is not limited to Thailand.

i'll have a look at those links but cuture shock is usually favored. i feel at home out of my element.

i think what got me was an incident today that has never happened to me in the LOS. i was in a CD shop with my friend looking for some music. the lady in the shop was friendly and played a cd at my request to see if it was the same title i was looking for. a large thai man came in the shop and turned off the music before it was even 10 seconds into playing. i explained to him that i wanted to hear the cd to make sure it was the right one. he was persistent in not allowing me to hear the cd. fair enough i thought, i told him i won't buy that cd. this is where everything went wrong. he exploded on me going off on a rant about how farang walk around saying what ever they want and doing whatever they want. he started saying that just because farang have money they do what they want. i turned to my friend and said, "lets not buy anything here". he then started cussing me out. i don't know where he learned all these vulgarities but it was loud and obsene. i tried to find his logic and there was none. i explained to him in thai that i live down the street, i'm not the evil farang that he had in his mind. he cursed me some more. again in thai i said that he was speaking very bad. i called him crazy and left. the rest of the day i have been baffeled by this single incident. that got me thinking about thailand and all the similar instances that have happened over the last year and a half here.

most my time here is great but every once in a while i get a bit freaked out.

Obviously your an has had a run in before with a rich farang who said & did exactly as he pleased....logical or not ?

you are asking about a logic of a rich farang that has caused a thai man to parades around with gold around his neck, wrists, and fingers screaming about rude farang. people talk about thais saving face, but this man had none. it was really quite sad to see. i felt bad for the sweet thai girl that was just watching her boss treat their customers like shit.

in the customer service industry you come across rude people all the time, but you must brush it off rather than take it out on your customers. not a very logical way to run a business is it...

look mate the guy's a twit, nothing more. its nothing to do with 'logic'. ive lived around the world and hv had countless baffling encounters. why try to read so much into this? maybe u looked like the farang his ex-wife ran off with, or his grandmother had died yesaterday, or he's stressed about being in debt. the assumption i would make is that he is a nasty nationalistic/racist type, but who knows? there's no way of telling.

if the uk had a large number of non-english speaking sexpats living in thairang ghettos in london, some of the locals would flare up and act irrationally every now and then towards them too. dont u think???

if this is the first racist encounter you hv ever had then uve been lucky. if u want to understand thailand, then there are plenty of good history books; they give good accounts of the development of thai nationalism and a background to the class structure within the country. it all helps.

if u want to have generally good encounters, keep doing what u hv been doing, learn thai, and treat people like u would want to be treated urself. every now and then u will meet <deleted>, nothing u can do about it really.

i think i understand ur OP, but the example u used in the post is not very logical.

[think_too_mut]

India is not only a democracy, it's the world's biggest one.

India a democracy? were 30% of the votes are bought from villagers for a mere 100 rupees and/or the village elders tell them how to vote? tell us one more joke please.

Here it is: America is a democracy where enough people had enough brains to vote for you know who.

Or the voters in America are not red necks, gangland inhabitants, ATM booths bums and whatever happened to be over 18?

Should the voters pass some criteria other than be over 18 and not been stripped of their civil rights?

Had America has succeeded in Iraq quickly and 100%, who would the voters there be?

Have we forgotten people in Bangkok taking kids out to take pictures with soldiers and tanks, en masse, in thousands, tens of thousands.

A pro-democracy rally last week in Bangkok gathered 500 protesters. Then you talk how much necessary democracy is in Thailand.

[Tywais]

You were warned to stay on topic and stop bickering. Since no one is listening to this advice this topic is closed. The following is the OPs closing statement added at his request. At the moment discussing with other mods as to re-opening it or not.

my OP was seperate of the incident. but it was that incident that got me thinking about logic and the way things are done here. i used that encounter as one example. i am not caught up in that incident with that guy, but during that day it was all i could think about. i started getting very philosophical. i turned to you guys at TV to try and get my head around it. this thread has gotten very interesting now and i find myself analysing much of what is posted. good discussion... thanks guys.