Sovereignty comes first: Britain lays out tough stance for EU trade talks

[Chomper Higgot]

49 minutes ago, Loiner said:

The EU has directly and indirectly contributed to the decline of British manufacturing. 

It was not the only factor, but nonetheless contributed in many aspects.

And you’ve got many examples to share.

[metisdead]

Some baiting troll posts have been removed.  A member's nationality is not part of the discussion in this topic. 

[Logosone]

11 minutes ago, englishoak said:

 

  You right, we were especially GREAT at piracy and kicking ass, proud of it too, thats the way the world was back then, you forgot being great at drug dealing too..  you must be either Scottish or French to envy our Greatness so much LOL...   You dont have to consider us great sonny, most of the world and history books already agree with me so you carry right on with your silly pathetic vitriol,  just makes you look like a butthurt loser, dont forget to take that plug out before bed now  

 

Talking of losing nice new account you got there, try not to misuse and abuse t like last time, ta ta salty 

 

Well, I'm happy for you that you manage to be proud of the accomplishments of other men, long since deceased, with which you had nothing to do whatsoever, like Francis Drake.

 

Drake, alas, was not that 'GREAT' at piracy. He failed to take Las Palmas, was defeated by the Spanish there and then proceeded to embark on an even more disastrous campaign in Spanish America where he was defeated again and again. 

 

He of course famously failed at San Juan in Puerto Rico as well, another famous defeat for Drake. Still a hero of course, even if no British man alive today can claim any credit for his career. But okay, if it helps you sleep at night.

 

Good point about the drugs, I'd almost forgotten the British role in the Opium trade in China. Still, the continued theft from other nations is probably worse. 

[Chomper Higgot]

Whatever the UK brings to the negotiations it would be wise to leave jingoism behind, and of course they will, but it plays well with the Brexiteers.

 

The key to any negotiation is to know what you want and what you are willing to give for it.

 

It might be necessary to hide what is being given from the jingoistic supporters, but that’s politics.

[puipuitom]

9 hours ago, Victornoir said:

You reverse the facts and distort history.

1870, 1914, 1939 ... 3 successive European wars mainly between Germans and French. Millions of deaths for nothing.
It was to stop this that the EU was formed and so far it has worked perfectly. The common market was only a happy consequence.

 

The UK Atlantist was not invited and only participate after repeated requests, year after year. Now it leave and in my eyes it is rather a good thing for the future.

Exactly as Charles de Gaule said for years: the British do NOT feel themselves a part of Continental Europe, big chance for frustration and sabotage, so… NEVER let them in the EEC.  He was over 99 % right.

[puipuitom]

9 hours ago, englishoak said:

If that happens it would be exactly the same for the EU too and they sell far more into the UK than we do in the other direction. However, Boris is in the party of Red tape cutting not the other way around and we can do whatever we need to immediately, cut taxes, VAT etc to help business, cut regulations is far more likely to offset any added. To get a good deal hardball is the only language the EU understands and it looks like so does this government. Free trade ports and zones are on the cards as is far more Global trade. As time goes on that will only increase, the path is set and the focus will not be on European trade but the rest of the world. EU in contrast is failing and just lost one of its 3 net contributors, Already theres trouble brewing there how that HUGE financial hole is going to be plugged ... Italy is in a terrible state, Greece remains bankrupt and Spain is on the edge, Germany is all but in recession and France has been burning for a year already and continues to, the rest take out far more than they put in and Ireland is almost totally dependent on trade with the UK... whatever Britain's problems they are small compared to the EUs already worsening ones. 

 

I dont think many appreciate the size of the mandate hes been given, it will allow transformation of the UK not seen since the times of Thatcher, only this time it will be the regions in the rest of the UK who will be focused on or he will lose that mandate and Boris is not a stupid man. It'll take a while to clean out Whitehall of the EU centric civil servants and thats already happening. We have spent long enough naval gazing, time to get going on the future. 

 

EU is not the future for us, the world is and the sooner the EU wakes up to that the better. 

Nice, all these tax cuts, but.. any idea, where the UK will get the funds from to pay all what is necessary to run a country ? Not to forget the 350 mln pounds per week for the NHS !

As lost contributor to the EU budget: that soon will be covered by import duties of UK products into the EU: a LOT more.

The GDP of Greece is growing again, that of Italy and France are about the size of the UK ( and higher as of the Single Kingdom), with more trade treaties ratified than the UK will have in a decade.

The big wide world… is really waiting for you … as supplier maybe, but NOT as customer for British products. Please donot forget it is NOT the times of the 19th + beginning of the 20th century, when "negociation" for the British meant: "we give a proposal, and.. when YOU bend enough for us, maybe we will add a few crumbs for you".

Edited February 3, 2020 by puipuitom

[Krataiboy]

9 hours ago, Victornoir said:

You reverse the facts and distort history.

1870, 1914, 1939 ... 3 successive European wars mainly between Germans and French. Millions of deaths for nothing.
It was to stop this that the EU was formed and so far it has worked perfectly. The common market was only a happy consequence.

 

The UK Atlantist was not invited and only participate after repeated requests, year after year. Now it leave and in my eyes it is rather a good thing for the future.

Sounds like you've swallowed the bankers' version of European history and the origins of the European Union.

 

They should know. They start the wars and reap the profits!

[Logosone]

20 minutes ago, puipuitom said:

Nice, all these tax cuts, but.. any idea, where the UK will get the funds from to pay all what is necessary to run a country ? Not to forget the 350 mln pounds per week for the NHS !

As lost contributor to the EU budget: that soon will be covered by import duties of UK products into the EU: a LOT more.

The GDP of Greece is growing again, that of Italy and France are about the size of the UK ( and higher as of the Single Kingdom), with more trade treaties ratified than the UK will have in a decade.

The big wide world… is really waiting for you … as supplier maybe, but NOT as customer for British products. Please donot forget it is NOT the times of the 19th + beginning of the 20th century, when "negociation" for the British meant: "we give a proposal, and.. when YOU bend enough for us, maybe we will add a few crumbs for you".

 

Exactly right. The UK is a real country. With real problems. Any fanciful notions of becoming a tax haven are unrealistic, since the UK has to pay billions for pensioners, unemployed and NHS. It needs its taxes.

 

Excellent point that the lost revenue of UK into the EU coffers will be covered by duties on UK products many times over.

 

It is also correct that selling British goods and services is the real problem for the UK, apart from the massive debt. It is much harder to sell services, they are more regulated in other countries. And 80 % of the UK economy is now services. And with very few products that others would want, it is not likely that the trade deficit will fall.

 

Expectations that the obedient colonies will eagerly buy British rather than French, German, Italian or Spanish products are going to be in for a massive disappointment. From Thailand, Japan, China to the US, people chose the best or cheapest product. That is almost never a British product.

 

Not exactly stellar prospects for the British.

[puipuitom]

4 hours ago, evadgib said:

It popped up briefly during Sky's press review this morning but I wasn't paying attention re specifics.

HTH

First of alll:  “We deny such a contingency plan exists,” said a spokesman for Nissan Europe.  https://www.ft.com/content/c4f0d1e2-4442-11ea-a43a-c4b328d9061c  Maybe whisful thinking of the Brexiteers ?

2) Great., There is too much car production capacity inside the EU, so when Nissan will close a few plants: GREAT !

The rest of the world still prefer : "deutsche Grúndlichkeit"

[codebunny]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

And you’ve got many examples to share.

Comments like that make you look like a troll - baiting people rather than contributing to a grown up discussion. 

[puipuitom]

5 hours ago, transam said:

Its a mistery to me how you haven't had a heart attack by now over Brexit...I have read three plus years of your doom and gloom...????

Why ? Any consequences of Brexit did not happen yet. Maybe at 1 Jan 2021.

Time enough for industries in the UK to scale down their activities and expand inside the EU. Of course not in one blow, as then the Unions will block their premises, and no spare part nor machine gets out.

Just step-by-step:

- new model cannot be produced ( in full scale) in ...Sunderland..., because... components from the EU cannot be brought in easy and without duty into the UK ,  etc...

- EU customers insist Insurance and finance activities for them are under EU law,

- Foods MUST be under IFS ( BRC obsolete), and under EU food inspection, so FSA is not valid (anymore) ..etc etc..

Many excuses possible.

I am an international food trader. Many EU customers ( retail + industry) "hesitate" to add in components/products, of which they do not have an idea, how the position will be in .. 11 months...

[Logosone]

6 minutes ago, codebunny said:

Comments like that make you look like a troll - baiting people rather than contributing to a grown up discussion. 

Not at all, he was right. 

 

That poster should substantiate his claims that the EU contributed to the UK's de-industrialisation.

 

How, pray tell did the EU do that?

 

Examples on a postcard please.

[codebunny]

1 hour ago, Logosone said:

 

Lol, the car manufacturers will not close car plants in the UK 'just to assuage the bully boys of the EU'. They will do so because for all the car buyers in the UK, there are far more in the EU. Bigger market, you see.

 

It's only a bigger market if consumers have money to spend. For a quite few years now, growth in the EU has been below inflation, demonstrating what a dismal failure the project is, economically.

 

Quote

 

I would never buy Nissan or Toyota over Citroen or Peugot, they're great cars. Renault too. Wonderful cars. Nissan and Toyota are okay, but Citroen Peugot and Renault are better. Your loss.

Statistically, Nissan and Toyota are cheaper to run and repair; Renault are frequently problematic.

To suggest that "French cars" are better than "Japanese cars" looks like covert Euronationalism.

As has been said, judge the cars by their price and performance, not their origin.

 

Quote

Californian wine over French, lol. 

Again, a tinge of Eurocentrism there...

Quote

 

This whole idea that all Brits will start buying from Australia, Botswana and New Zealand is frankly ludicrous. 

Interesting that you insert Botswana into the mix, is there something wrong with Botswana as a customer? You know that it's a southern African country of about a million people? Why would you cite it over a developed country like America or a large population developing country like India?

Quote

Britain is not a directed economy like China. And many millions of Britons buy BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Volkswagen, Renault, Citroen, Peugot, they will continue to buy clothes from Zara, spread Nutella on their bread rather than Marmite. 

Quite, which is why many EU jobs derive their income from exports to the UK, isn't it.

Quote

See it's an issue of quality, even the British know the best quality is usually a European product.

What's a "European product"? You mean a Norwegian product? or an Albanian product?

Surely products' quality is more to do with the company that produces it and their standards, wherever they're from... or do you prefer Eurojingoism as a way of determining quality?

Quote

And they will buy accordingly. Just like the Chinese. Just like the Americans. Just like the Japanese who are falling over themselves to copy French bread btw. And German cakes.

Sometimes they even make it themselves, because even Japanese can make bread, and even Americans can make cakes... then they don't need to import them so much, do they?

Edited February 3, 2020 by codebunny

[VocalNeal]

4 minutes ago, puipuitom said:

I am an international food trader.

well good for you.

 

Nice to hear you have such a positive spin on the whole thing. 

Edited February 3, 2020 by VocalNeal
keyboard on the blink

[codebunny]

1 minute ago, Logosone said:

Not at all, he was right. 

 

That poster should substantiate his claims that the EU contributed to the UK's de-industrialisation.

 

How, pray tell did the EU do that?

 

Examples on a postcard please.

Why don't you, and the person you applaud provide some evidence of your claims, for a change?

It should be very easy to do if the evidence is so self...evident?

[Logosone]

6 hours ago, vogie said:

And the icing on the cake is that Nissan has suggested that if any tariffs are imposed on any of its cars, they will pull out of France and Spain and just concentrate on production in the UK. The sweet smell of success, don't you just love it.????????????

"Nissan has reportedly drawn up contingency plans to pull out of manufacturing in mainland Europe in the event of a hard Brexit in favour of ramping up its production in the UK.

 

Nissan denied having made such a plan, however, and said its Sunderland plant would be under threat"

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/03/nissan-eu-uk-hard-brexit

 

Vogie, there is no icing...not even a cake, poor Britishers.......nothing to see here people....all as before...

 

"Graham Biggs of BMW UK said: "In the event of a no-deal Brexit, some or all of the production of the Mini could be moved to Holland where we have a plant. We need frictionless trade and a no-deal Brexit will not give us that.""

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/03/05/bmw-toyota-sound-no-deal-brexit-alarm/

[Chomper Higgot]

21 minutes ago, codebunny said:

Comments like that make you look like a troll - baiting people rather than contributing to a grown up discussion. 

Sorry for calling out an unsubstantiated claim.

 

I think you get the idea:

 

“Why don't you, and the person you applaud provide some evidence of your claims, for a change?”

Edited February 3, 2020 by Chomper Higgot

[puipuitom]

2 hours ago, tebee said:

So should the EU send all the sick old UK retirees in the EU back to the UK (inc ME!) and overwhelm the NHS too?

Yeah… with all docters, nurses etc from the EU gone. But one big advantage: as many farm helpers are also gone, enough jobs vacant. ( Sorry for you ) 

[codebunny]

6 minutes ago, puipuitom said:

Yeah… with all docters, nurses etc from the EU gone. But one big advantage: as many farm helpers are also gone, enough jobs vacant. ( Sorry for you ) 

So you mean there are vacancies for the unemployed in the UK? And a minimum wage that will rise to £10.50/hr. I've heard that some countries outside the EU even train doctors and nurses who work in the EU, places like India and the Philippines... or are those doctors less good than EU ones for some reason you'd like to share?

[codebunny]

9 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Sorry for calling out an unsubstantiated claim.

 

I think you get the idea:

 

“Why don't you, and the person you applaud provide some evidence of your claims, for a change?”

Can you quote the last claim you made that wasn't unsubstantiated? ...asking for a friend.

[codebunny]

13 minutes ago, Logosone said:

"Nissan has reportedly drawn up contingency plans to pull out of manufacturing in mainland Europe in the event of a hard Brexit in favour of ramping up its production in the UK.

 

Nissan denied having made such a plan, however, and said its Sunderland plant would be under threat"

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/03/nissan-eu-uk-hard-brexit

The Guardian [snigger]

13 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Vogie, there is no icing...not even a cake, poor Britishers.......nothing to see here people....all as before...

 

"Graham Biggs of BMW UK said: "In the event of a no-deal Brexit, some or all of the production of the Mini could be moved to Holland where we have a plant. We need frictionless trade and a no-deal Brexit will not give us that.""

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/03/05/bmw-toyota-sound-no-deal-brexit-alarm/

Hmm... a 12-month old story, how relevant and up-to-date.

[vogie]

10 minutes ago, Logosone said:

"Nissan has reportedly drawn up contingency plans to pull out of manufacturing in mainland Europe in the event of a hard Brexit in favour of ramping up its production in the UK.

 

Nissan denied having made such a plan, however, and said its Sunderland plant would be under threat"

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/03/nissan-eu-uk-hard-brexit

 

Vogie, there is no icing...not even a cake, poor Britishers.......nothing to see here people....all as before...

 

"Graham Biggs of BMW UK said: "In the event of a no-deal Brexit, some or all of the production of the Mini could be moved to Holland where we have a plant. We need frictionless trade and a no-deal Brexit will not give us that.""

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/03/05/bmw-toyota-sound-no-deal-brexit-alarm/

Strangely enough I never had you down as a Guardian reader and in Yorkshire we have a saying which goes 'you can't kid them that kids others', ever heard of that one?

 

But that claim of keeping our plant open in the UK was made by two Nissan members on the negotiating team, so at the end of the day, you pays your money you takes your choice.

[codebunny]

2 hours ago, chilli42 said:

Who else is the U.K. going to trade with ... the Commonwealth, the Chinese or Americans? The EU is the largest UK trading partner.  Also, can you expect the EU to extend generous trading terms to the U.K.?  That would be a signal to all EU members that leaving the EU brings more advantage than remaining. It is comforting and to hear politicians talking tough, it plays well in the press. I am not sure if it’s hubris or just to please voters but it’s u realistic.

Ireland and Germany are the largest trading partners in Europe, the EU is not a country, but there are quite a lot of countries in the world who like buying quality British goods and services, delivered in a more efficient and cost-effective way than they might be in other European countries.

[puipuitom]

2 hours ago, Loiner said:

The EU has directly and indirectly contributed to the decline of British manufacturing. 

It was not the only factor, but nonetheless contributed in many aspects.

Just search in Google:

IN THE 1970s, Britain was dubbed “the sick man of Europe”, a role previously played by the Ottoman empire in the late 19th century. ... The reason Britain joined what was then the EEC in 1973 (at the third attempt) was, in large part, a desperate attempt to find a way of forcing the country to become more competitive.19 jul. 2017

https://www.economist.com/buttonwoods-notebook/2017/07/19/britain-back-to-being-the-sick-man-of-europe

 

Thanks to the EEC ( and since the ratification of the Lisbon treaty by the UK parliament member of the successor: the EU) , the UK is economically still alive.

 

[puipuitom]

2 hours ago, AlbionBob said:

All this doomsday talk about Brexit infuriates me !  I wondered when it might occur to a car manufacturer that it would be crazy to take car manufacturing out of the UK, just to assuage the bully boys of the EU.  Do they not realise that UK car buyers, of which there are many millions, will buy cars manufactured in the UK,  using UK workers, and having NO punitive duties imposed, over those coming from the continent with such duties imposed just in order to punish the UK for having the temerity to leave their beloved union !  I for one, and I suspect many millions of us Brits will buy Nissan and Toyota, rather than Peugeot or Citroen, if they have such a price differential, just as I suspect that we will be buying Californian, Australian or South African wines rather than French or German wines !  I am one of the school that will henceforward refuse to buy anything from the EU if I can get it from elsewhere.   Bring on the trade deals with Japan, US, Australia, New Zealand et al  !!

Those import duties are nothing else as the consequence of trading under WTO-rules, as the Brexiteers prefer. 

Just 11 months to go, and trade with the UK really bings money into the EU treasury:  https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/dds2/taric/taric_consultation.jsp?Lang=en  

[AlbionBob]

Personally think I'd believe the Financial Times than the Telegraph regarding Nissan !   And regarding Japanese cars, my mechanic friend tells me that they are the most reliable cars on the road !  Here in Thailand, how many Peugeots or Citroens do you see ??   Millions of Toyotas and Nissans !  

Further, how do you know that British citizens prefer Euro products ?  Yes, currently we buy what we like, but most of us don't look at the place of origin.  If the EU wops on high tariffs, I feel that the UK people will look at more what they buy more carefully and chose a cheaper option.  On wines, we can, and do, at present buy Australian, Californian, South African and Chilean - all of which are in my opinion better than French or German...  Botswana, I don't know..do they produce wine ???   More obfuscation from <deleted>...will they ever give up ?  

[samran]

10 minutes ago, AlbionBob said:

Personally think I'd believe the Financial Times than the Telegraph regarding Nissan !   And regarding Japanese cars, my mechanic friend tells me that they are the most reliable cars on the road !  Here in Thailand, how many Peugeots or Citroens do you see ??   Millions of Toyotas and Nissans !  

Further, how do you know that British citizens prefer Euro products ?  Yes, currently we buy what we like, but most of us don't look at the place of origin.  If the EU wops on high tariffs, I feel that the UK people will look at more what they buy more carefully and chose a cheaper option.  On wines, we can, and do, at present buy Australian, Californian, South African and Chilean - all of which are in my opinion better than French or German...  Botswana, I don't know..do they produce wine ???   More obfuscation from <deleted>...will they ever give up ?  

Um, the EU won’t put tariffs on their own exports. That is the UKs decision....

[Logosone]

14 minutes ago, codebunny said:

 

It's only a bigger market if consumers have money to spend. For a quite few years now, growth in the EU has been below inflation, demonstrating what a dismal failure the project is, economically.

 

 

I'm glad you raise this point. 

 

Europeans have just under €10 trillion at their disposal in 2019. Per capita purchasing power grew by approximately 3.5 percent in 2019, which is significantly higher than last year’s value.

 

https://www.gfk.com/insights/press-release/europeans-spend-eur14739-per-person-in-2019/

 

How about the UK?

 

"[LONDON] Britons' purchasing power, which took a hit this year against the backdrop of Brexit, looks set to stagnate in 2018, according to a new study released on Wednesday.  Following what was a "tough year for living standards" in 2017... the prospects for a "meaningful pay recovery" are "still out of sight", said Torsten Bell, head of the Resolution Foundation, a London-based think tank.

Since Britain voted to leave the European Union in June 2016, a drop in sterling - making imported goods more expensive - has pushed inflation up to more than 3.0 per cent.

 

https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/government-economy/british-purchasing-power-set-to-stagnate-in-2018-study

 

Economically the EU project has been a fantastic success. Imagine creating a new currency from scratch linked to so many states? That currency, the Euro is now very stable, and set to replace even the USD as a reference in some countries and areas.

 

41 minutes ago, codebunny said:

Statistically, Nissan and Toyota are cheaper to run and repair; Renault are frequently problematic.

To suggest that "French cars" are better than "Japanese cars" looks like covert Euronationalism.

 

Whose statistics are those, Boris Johnson's? The Renault Laguna is one of the most reliable cars ever built. The Germans have tested it over 100,000 km and its reliability was outstanding.

 

https://www.autozeitung.de/renault-laguna-grandtour-im-100-000-km-test-161964.html

 

Toyota and Nissan maybe cheaper, but you get what you pay for, which Nissan and Toyota has keyless entry, automatic handbrake, keyless start and automatic locking and mirror closing? The Renault Laguna has. I've owned one, as well as Toyota and Nissan, and would choose Renault every single time.

 

53 minutes ago, codebunny said:

 

 which is why many EU jobs derive their income from exports to the UK, isn't it.

 

Sometimes they even make it themselves, because even Japanese can make bread, and even Americans can make cakes... then they don't need to import them so much, do they?

None of the big European giants derive all their income from the UK none. From Mercedes, BMW, Nutella, Renault, Zara, anyone one of them could stop selling to the UK and survive quite easily. Could the UK survive without selling to the EU?

 

The Japanese actually make very good copies of French bread, and German cakes. Alas not quite as good as the real thing, and whilst they don't need to import the real thing, guess what, they do. 

[Morty T]

7 hours ago, vogie said:

Whats it like to have lost to the uneducated and what does that make you, jealous, bitter, hurting, sore loser? 

And the icing on the cake is that Nissan has suggested that if any tariffs are imposed on any of its cars, they will pull out of France and Spain and just concentrate on production in the UK. The sweet smell of success, don't you just love it.????????????

The real issue here is that the EU just lost their military arm, now who is going to send troops when the liberals in the EU try to impose one of their fantasy support missions, the Germans 5555

[Jane Dough]

12 hours ago, AussieBob18 said:

Boris will also be stating that the UK will talk with any other State about leaving the EU, and will be in the future more than willing to assist them in going thorugh the process.

I think that may well be "help" other nations could do without. 

 

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