FBAR Filing 2020 for US Expats

[cusanus]

Here's an important question. If you're American and don't know know about FBAR filing for the US Treasury, you'd better get informed in a hurry or risk Uncle Scam stripping you of your bank accounts and sending you to prison. So, for the rest of us, the question is whether or not a "co-signature" Thai bank account must be reported by the co-signer. I would assume so, but the question arose because I went to a local BB branch and asked to be named beneficiary on a relative's account, not a joint owner or signer. No problem. We signed the papers without any questions, though of course I can't read what I'm signing and had to assume I was only a beneficiary.  I was assured that I had no interest in the money or name on the account. Much later, however, I read discussions to the effect that Thai banks do not have beneficiaries, but co signers, whatever that actually means. I had to suspect then, that I actually am a co signer. I don't know if that means I have "signature authority" over the account or not as defined by the US Treasury, department, but it's certainly a worthy question to be put to the Thai expat community. I do plan on adding the account to my Fincen report just to be on the safe side, can't do any harm I suppose. It's not a tough job to file, but a very serious concern to do right unless you want to be ground under the heel of the US and sent to prison. I spent 57 years in the USA being the victim of nearly every high crime perpetrated by the US government: cocaine distribution, child porn, death threats, extortion, Rico violations, to name a few. Thank God I've found peace in Thailand the last 15 years, but you never entirely get rid of the parasites this side of the grave. Any experts out there who can set us straight?  I do hope the answers are helpful to others.

Edited February 14, 2020 by cusanus

[Langsuan Man]

Did the Thai bank ask for your social security number ?

 

If not,  you have nothing to worry about as far as FBAR is concerned.  And even if you were asked for your SSAN,   Signature authority is just a term used by US banks to determine the extent of "ownership" of an account.  Even if you are a "co-signer" the law only applies to your money in a Foreign Bank account

 

So unless you have deposited over $10,000 into this account you have nothing to worry about

Edited February 15, 2020 by Langsuan Man

[cusanus]

You're quite wrong on all counts. If you have money in a foreign bank it matters not whether or not the bank asks for your social security number. Not a passable excuse. The $10,000 threshold does NOT apply to any single account, but the aggregate of all accounts you own or have signature authority over, even the $807 in the account of concern. The co-signer rule does NOT apply to your money, but any accounts over which you have signature authority. A typical example would be the treasurer of a trust or pension, or in this case, anyone who has access to the funds for whatever reason but has no personal interest in them. I suggest for your own safety that you look a little closer at the rules. The penalty for missing an account is $10,000 per account (whether more or less than $10,000) PER YEAR. I'm not sure of the prison terms, but it would be a life sentence for many of us. The term signature authority used by US banks has no meaning in this case, it's a term used by the Department of Treasury for this purpose only. 

Edited February 15, 2020 by cusanus

[Pib]

 

Partial Quote for the FBAR Filing Instructions....two key factors in who must file is if you have financial interest in an account OR signature authority of that account. 

 

If you can go into a bank and withdraw money (i.e., you can control disposition of the funds) from another person's account (especially your spouse) you have signature authority over that account which means it would need to be reported on your FBAR also.  However, there are some exceptions like if an employee of a bank/financial company with certain duties related to overseeing accounts.

 

Quote

 

Who Must File an FBAR. A United States person that has a financial interest in or signature authority over foreign financial accounts must file an FBAR if the aggregate value of the foreign financial accounts exceeds $10,000 at any time during the calendar year. See General Definitions, to determine who is a United States person.

 

 

Foreign Financial Account. A foreign financial account is a financial account located outside of the United States. For example, an account maintained with a branch of a United States bank that is physically located outside of the United States is a foreign financial account. An account maintained with a branch of a foreign bank that is physically located in the United States is not a foreign financial account.

 

Financial Interest. A United States person has a financial interest in a foreign financial account for which:
1. the United States person is the owner of record or holder of legal title, regardless of whether the account is maintained for the benefit of the United States person or for the benefit of another person; or
2. the owner of record or holder of legal title is one of the following:
a. An agent, nominee, attorney, or a person acting in some other capacity on behalf of the United States person with respect to the account;
b. A corporation in which the United States person owns directly or indirectly: (i) more than 50 percent of the total value of shares of stock or (ii) more than 50 percent of the voting power of all shares of stock;
c. A partnership in which the United States person owns directly or indirectly: (i) an interest in more than 50 percent of the partnership's profits (e.g., distributive share of partnership income taking into account any special allocation agreement) or (ii) an interest in more than 50 percent of the partnership capital;
d. A trust of which the United States person: (i) is the trust grantor and (ii) has an ownership interest in the trust for United States federal tax purposes. See 26
U.S.C. sections 671-679 to determine if a grantor has an ownership interest in a trust;
e. A trust in which the United States person has a greater than 50 percent present beneficial interest in the assets or income of the trust for the calendar year; or
f. Any other entity in which the United States person owns directly or indirectly more than 50 percent of the voting power, total value of equity interest or assets, or interest in profits.
Person. A person means an individual (including a minor child) and legal entities including, but not limited to, a limited liability company, corporation, partnership, trust, and estate.

Signature Authority. Signature authority is the authority of an individual (alone or in conjunction with another individual) to control the disposition of assets held in a foreign financial account by direct communication (whether in writing or otherwise) to the bank or other financial institution that maintains the financial account. See Exceptions, Signature Authority.

 

Exceptions:
Certain Accounts Jointly Owned by Spouses. The spouse of an individual who files an FBAR is not required to file a separate FBAR if the following conditions are met: (1) all the financial accounts that the non-filing spouse is required to report are jointly owned with the filing spouse; 2) the filing spouse reports the jointly owned accounts on a timely filed FBAR electronically signed; and (3) the filers have completed and signed Form 114a, “Record of Authorization to Electronically File FBAR’s” (maintained with the filers’ records). Otherwise, both spouses are required to file separate FBARs, and each spouse must report the entire value of the jointly owned accounts. See instructions for specific items, Part III, Items 25-33.

 

Signature Authority. Individuals who have signature authority over, but no financial interest in, a foreign financial account are not required to report the account in the following situations:
1. An officer or employee of a bank that is examined by the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, the Office of Thrift Supervision, or the National Credit Union Administration is not required to report signature authority over a foreign financial account owned or maintained by the bank.
2. An officer or employee of a financial institution that is registered with and examined by the Securities and Exchange Commission or Commodity Futures Trading Commission is not required to report signature authority over a foreign financial account owned or maintained by the financial institution.
3. An officer or employee of an Authorized Service Provider is not required to report signature authority over a foreign financial account that is owned or maintained by an investment company that is registered with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Authorized Service Provider means an entity that is registered with and examined by the Securities and Exchange Commission and provides services to an investment company registered under the Investment Company Act of 1940.
4. An officer or employee of an entity that has a class of equity securities listed (or American depository receipts listed) on any United States national securities exchange is not required to report signature authority over a foreign financial account of such entity.
5. An officer or employee of a United States subsidiary is not required to report signature authority over a foreign financial account of the subsidiary if its United States parent has a class of equity securities listed on any United States national securities exchange and the subsidiary is included in a consolidated FBAR report of the United States parent.
6. An officer or employee of an entity that has a class of equity securities registered (or American depository receipts in respect of equity securities registered) under section 12(g) of the Securities Exchange Act is not required to report signature authority over a foreign financial account of such entity.
 

 

 

[Lacessit]

When I first read the headline, I thought a "U" had been omitted.

[timendres]

3 hours ago, cusanus said:

The penalty for missing an account is $10,000 per account (whether more or less than $10,000) PER YEAR. I'm not sure of the prison terms, but it would be a life sentence for many of us.

Penalties are a valid concern. Prison is unlikely. Prison is the result of criminal charges, which are typically only the result of fraudulent filings. If you are not filing, there is no fraud, only failure to file, which involves the penalties. The penalties in this case are severe, since the $10,000 is not the actual limit. They can take 50% of the account's maximum value within the year.

[cusanus]

You may be right, Tim. For many, the financial penalties would be pretty devastating. Also, no penalties should apply unless the failure was deliberate, but that isn't your call. Thanks for your comments. 

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by cusanus

[ChouDoufu]

other penalties may be more of a problem.

depending on circumstances, could have passport revoked.

[taxout]

Note particularly that "signature authority" means "the authority of an individual (alone or in conjunction with another individual) to control the disposition of assets held in a foreign financial account." So you have "signature authority" over an account even if it is, say, an account requiring two signatures for a withdrawal.

 

The penalties associated with FBAR are draconian. As a result, if there's any question whether an account should be included, then include it. If questions are raised down the road by the Feds, resolving those questions will be expensive, even if you finally prevail.

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by taxout

[muffy]

9 hours ago, Lacessit said:

When I first read the headline, I thought a "U" had been omitted.

The fbar computer filing doesn't work for me but the private pay one works but I refuse to pay . USA get your act together .

[cusanus]

11 hours ago, muffy said:

The fbar computer filing doesn't work for me but the private pay one works but I refuse to pay . USA get your act together .

There's nothing difficult about the online filing (which I understood to be the only way to do it this year). I wouldn't recommend advertising a refusal to comply.  <removed>
https://bsaefiling.fincen.treas.gov/NoRegFBARFiler.html

Edited February 16, 2020 by ubonjoe
off topic comment removed

[Pib]

Yeap...just use the link gave by cusanus above.  Downloaded the PDF Form file....complete it offline....when ready to file just click the link within the PDF file itself to file....the link takes you right to the US govt website to upload your completed FBAR.  Easy....I've done it for years.  Absolutely no reason to use some "pay" website to file your FBAR unless you just like paying for something that is free.

 

 

[zlodnick]

I file for myself and for my wife. It's a pain in the neck, but only takes 20 minutes or so and we really have no choice.

 

 My worry is, the wife doesn't use the computer, so what can she do when I'm gone?

[cusanus]

5 hours ago, zlodnick said:

I file for myself and for my wife. It's a pain in the neck, but only takes 20 minutes or so and we really have no choice. My worry is, the wife doesn't use the computer, so what can she do when I'm gone?

I've a very similar situation. The government may well just take it, perhaps using it also as an excuse to take on the "responsibility" to put your wife in a facility. 15% of SS recipients do not have access to their money; instead, it is paid to a "representative payee," often without the victim's consent. They payee is supposed to use the money to care for the older person, but in practice there is no way to assure this happens. At our age, nobody will hear your cries. If you get declared incompetent by a court, the seizure of SS checks automatically follows; however, based on a single telephone call, a SS representative can declare you incompetent without any court evidence. I've caught on to such things due to some very nasty experiences. Note that as we get older, not only are SS increases trailing far behind COL increases, but as our physical and mental capabilities diminish the government's rules become more difficult to maneuver; in fact, outright abusive. It took a friend of mine many phone calls, some of them 2-3 hours to SS reps just to get his address changed. It never happened and the following year his payments were suspended. That eventually got straightened out, but it wasn't easy.  Don't get me started.

 

[JimGant]

23 hours ago, zlodnick said:

My worry is, the wife doesn't use the computer, so what can she do when I'm gone?

Will she be hiring someone to help with US taxes? If so, FBAR filing should easily be part of the contract. Otherwise:

Quote

If you are unable to file electronically, contact FinCEN's Regulatory Help line at 1-800-949-2732 or 1-703-905-3975 (if calling from outside the United States) to determine possible alternatives to electronic filing.

The Feds really aren't out to get we wee folks; the FBAR law is just a hook to hang real money launderers on. Filing late FBARs electronically can be explained away on page one's drop down box. "Husband died and I'm a mess" should suffice, in this example. Also, if you're not a genuine money launderer, and you've declared as income on Sched B the interest from you FBAR associated accounts, relax:

Quote

The IRS will not impose a penalty for the failure to file the delinquent FBARs if you properly reported on your U.S. tax returns, and paid all tax on, the income from the foreign financial accounts reported on the delinquent FBARs,

https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/delinquent-fbar-submission-procedures

 

[cusanus]

13 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Will she be hiring someone to help with US taxes? If so, FBAR filing should easily be part of the contract. Otherwise:

The Feds really aren't out to get we wee folks; the FBAR law is just a hook to hang real money launderers on. Filing late FBARs electronically can be explained away on page one's drop down box. "Husband died and I'm a mess" should suffice, in this example. Also, if you're not a genuine money launderer, and you've declared as income on Sched B the interest from you FBAR associated accounts, relax:

Great answers and much appreciated. Should work 99% of the time. If you've heard of one of the many legit business in the US who've been destroyed by the IRS for laundering money (daily revenues), then you might have trouble relaxing. If you've observed a cocaine and meth racket going gangbusters on government property, it might also make you think. If you were not aware in past years and should have reported, then definitely report them. It's not worth having it come up later after the problem has multiplied. Believe it or not, the government is the major drug player on the block and cares more about seizing money than about whether or not you're guilty. Yes, I know, this is called conspiracy theory.  Nobody I know, me included, has owed a penny in taxes for many years, but we file anyway for several reasons. One in particular is that the address for the annual Proof of Life form is taken from your 1040, at least it's supposed to. It wasn't for the one fellow, a mystery, but that could be why he lost his SS. They claimed it was for some other reason, but wouldn't tell him. Let me just toss this in, that if your Proof of Life form (SSA 7162) has not arrived by early June, make sure you fill in a blank and send it in yourself. There are numerous addresses and methods and some do not work, so check back here if you're confused (after doing your FBARs).

[riclag]

I have a question on the FBAR form ,specifically my address

 

Address line -number , Soi name  , Village name

 

City line  Muang Sakon Nakhon

My question is  what do I do about the Province ?

When I have purchased items I always include the Province 

Example -City- Muang Sakon Nakhon,Sakon Nakhon,Thailand 47000

Thanks

[JimGant]

From the instructions:

Quote

If a foreign address contains address information that does not conform to the FBAR address format, record equivalent address information in the FBAR address items (except state). Enter as much of any non-conforming data as will fit in the 100-character street address field. Complete any address item that is known, even if some address items cannot be completed because of incompatible formats

 

[flexomike]

On 2/16/2020 at 2:33 AM, muffy said:

The fbar computer filing doesn't work for me but the private pay one works but I refuse to pay . USA get your act together .

been doing in online for four years, never had a problem with the system

[riclag]

22 minutes ago, JimGant said:

From the instructions:

 

so for example,  on the street line (# street ,village name, name of province) ,21/2500 Soi Tan,Tan Village,Province Sakon Nakhon!

Should I leave out the word Province?

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by riclag

[Number 6]

On 2/16/2020 at 2:33 AM, muffy said:

The fbar computer filing doesn't work for me but the private pay one works but I refuse to pay . USA get your act together .

FBAR is free. You can do it online or PDF. What am I missing?

 

 

[Number 6]

19 minutes ago, flexomike said:

been doing in online for four years, never had a problem with the system

Me too. 6 years. Don't overthink it. They just want your accounts and your address sorta. I'm sure they can't knock at your door lol. You'll get an email.

 

The issue raised is very valid though. If you have control over an account you should report it. My understanding.

[cusanus]

50 minutes ago, riclag said:

My question is  what do I do about the Province ?

When I have purchased items I always include the Province 

Example -City- Muang Sakon Nakhon,Sakon Nakhon,Thailand 47000

Thanks

If this helps, the Province is always the State,so you have to put in the country first from the drop down list, then the Province (state). Amphur or Amphoe is the city. I did mine two months ago and am too lazy to bring it up for a look, but it's a no brainer. 

[riclag]

1 minute ago, cusanus said:

If this helps, the Province is always the State,so you have to put in the country first from the drop down list, then the Province (state). Amphur or Amphoe is the city. I did mine two months ago and am too lazy to bring it up for a look, but it's a no brainer. 

It won't let me enter anything in the state after I enter Thailand

[cusanus]

2 minutes ago, riclag said:

It won't let me enter anything in the state after I enter Thailand

No problemo, just add it after city OR leave it out BECAUSE the zip code takes care of that. But I always use Amphur before the city name 

Edited April 7, 2020 by cusanus

[riclag]

3 minutes ago, cusanus said:

No problemo, just add it after city OR leave it out BECAUSE the zip code takes care of that. But I always use Amphur before the city name 

Thanks I'll leave it out

[moe666]

I pay turbo tax they do a fine job answer a few questions on Fbar the main ones being having 400,000dollars in a stock account and the answer is no and that does it. The little guy has to put up with this because of the one percent who were caught out with swiss bank accounts they were not reporting worth millions

[JimGant]

You can jam it all in the address box, as the instructions say (100 characters). Not in state box, as it's drop down. Leave out amphur, tambon, province descriptors. They really don't need a precise address, as they'll never contact you anyway, and if they do, it will be the same way as they notify you that the FBAR's been accepted, i.e., by the email you provide.

Edited April 7, 2020 by JimGant

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, moe666 said:

on Fbar the main ones being having 400,000dollars in a stock account

That's not FBAR related. It's FATCA reporting, which, if you exceed the threshold, would require you attach a FATCA form to your Form 1040 tax return. Anyway, for us little folk, it's all a big bother about nothing. 

[Pib]

14 hours ago, moe666 said:

I pay turbo tax they do a fine job answer a few questions on Fbar the main ones being having 400,000dollars in a stock account and the answer is no and that does it. The little guy has to put up with this because of the one percent who were caught out with swiss bank accounts they were not reporting worth millions

As already mentioned a FBAR is not a $400K requirement you are referring to; $400K is referring to one of the trigger amount relating to FACTA and IRS Form 8838 submission requirements.  Two different animals....two different forms....one you may have to file with the IRS/your federal return...the other "not" filed with your return but filed with a different department in the US Treasury.

 

Review below IRS webpage explaining the two different animals....full details with comparison chart at the webpage...I also included a partial quote..

https://www.irs.gov/businesses/comparison-of-form-8938-and-fbar-requirements

 

Partial Quote.

 

 

Quote

 

The Form 8938 filing requirement does not replace or otherwise affect a taxpayer’s obligation to file FinCEN Form 114 (Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts). Unlike Form 8938, the FBAR (FinCEN Form 114) is not filed with the IRS. It must be filed directly with the office of Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN), a bureau of the Department of the Treasury, separate from the IRS. 

Individuals and domestic entities must check the requirements and relevant reporting thresholds of each form and determine if they should file Form 8938 or FinCEN Form 114, or both. Form 8938 and Instructions can be found at About Form 8938. FinCen Form 114 and Instructions can be found through FinCen’s BSA E-Filing System.