albertik Posted March 2, 2020 Author Share Posted March 2, 2020 3 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said: I did not post the picture of the mechanical device. Probably impossible in Thailand for a reasonable price. That is exactly what you need and the same as I have. Why? How many kilometres away is it? ???? you do not have to supply all the power for the holding tank pump from the float switch in your storage tank. You need just enough to trigger a contactor (relay) so 0.5mm2 is plenty big enough. It isn’t rocket science, if you’re slightly competent you can do it yourself. I preferred to pay the electrician as I didn’t want to crawl around the ceiling and roof of my house Looked like a device to me. Anyway I have, after much consideration, decided to keep my present system at least for the time being. The system I currently employ requires me to manually flip an electrical switch every other day or so to refill the holding tank and thus avoid having the pump resupply the tank after 2 or 3 liters of depletion. That switch is strategically placed outside my back door which is only a matter of 3 or 4 steps from my coffee pot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artisi Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 29 minutes ago, albertik said: No, that is not correct. If you have power at the tank controlling the pump on /off via the ball valve, simply install a float switch and change the wiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elkski Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 I just learned dont put " ball cock pump" into Google search. This is an easy job Alberto dont give up. What is a ball cock? How does it shut off the pump? I'm assuming a ball cock is not an electrical device but rather a check valve that is pushed closed when the tank is full and the back pressure triggers a pressure switch on the pump? The only way your going to get what you want is with a variable level float valve like suggested above. Surely easy to buy online. The one shown above uses electrical water sensors with no moving parts. There are some that use floats on a rod and the rod has movable tabs that trigger a switch. If you cant or don't want to run these level sensors on pump voltage because you don't want big wires or wires at all from the tank it can be done. you can use a 24 v control circuit and run small wires and non dangerous voltage from tank to pump. no wires between tank and pump requires a different approach. I assume your tank filling pump triggers off of pressure? So currently when the tank is full and the cock valve as you call it shuts the pressure in the tank goes up and you have adjusted your pump pressure switch to detect this without bursting the tank with overpressure. What you need is to replace the cock valve as you call it ( I call it a check valve. A ball valve is name for a normal valve with as ball inside) either a mechanical float valve or a sensor type high low valve to trigger a solenoid valve that open or closes a valve on your pump line. When your tank is full in between the two level sensors the solenoid valve in the pump Line near the tank is closed in the pumps pressure is high turning the pump off. When the floats mechanical or electrical sensors Arlo this opens the solenoid valve in the pump line and the pump runs until the float detects high level of water and closes the solenoid in the pump line which triggers the pressure switch back at the pump. You guys need to start using the correct terminology cock valve?, solenoid valve, solenoid switch, level sensor, etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sometimewoodworker Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 (edited) 51 minutes ago, albertik said: Looked like a device to me. My picture was of the electrical not mechanical device 51 minutes ago, albertik said: The system I currently employ requires me to manually flip an electrical switch every other day or so to refill the holding tank and thus avoid having the pump resupply the tank after 2 or 3 liters of depletion. So the electrical float switch that I posted could replace the switch or be added to it, your problem is then solved. It seems that you can not or will not understand that that is all that is needed. you already have the control needed the only thing you need to do is run a couple of wires from that switch to your ready use tank and install the Somic ฿370 float switch in the tank Edited March 2, 2020 by sometimewoodworker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahjongguy Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 Like this: https://www.electricsolenoidvalves.com/3-4-12v-dc-electric-brass-solenoid-valve/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertik Posted March 2, 2020 Author Share Posted March 2, 2020 18 minutes ago, Artisi said: If you have power at the tank controlling the pump on /off via the ball valve, simply install a float switch and change the wiring. Great idea but it isn't quite that simple. I have power to the supply pump at the well source but this is separate from the supply tank. The electrical supply pump is regulated by a pressure sensor ( that pressure sensor is controlled by water level dictated by the ball valve) That is to say..... when the ball valve opens due to the water level drop, the electrically operated supply pump kicks in and replenishes the tank. So everytime the tank is drained by a couple of liters, the ball cock will open and the sensor will activate the supply pump. The problem I am attempting to overcome is to not cycle the electrical supply pump each time the water is used, I.E. 1 toilet flush. In the mean time I will just use the switch on my sitting area just outside the back door. It essentially achieves the same result, albeit requiring me to remain ever vigilant. At the same time I am trying to do my income taxes for Uncle Sam. Not sure which task is more daunting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertik Posted March 2, 2020 Author Share Posted March 2, 2020 Thanks Elkski. I will take your suggestion under advisement. At 1st glance seems like a workable solution. It looks as though you have a good sense of my dilemma and are offering a viable solution. I believe most of my terminology was accurate but it not please feel free to enlighten me. I will not be offended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertik Posted March 2, 2020 Author Share Posted March 2, 2020 15 minutes ago, mahjongguy said: Like this: https://www.electricsolenoidvalves.com/3-4-12v-dc-electric-brass-solenoid-valve/ I tried to access the link you provided but for some mysterious reason the browser I am using won't allow access. Will try later with a different one. At any rate, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertik Posted March 2, 2020 Author Share Posted March 2, 2020 Elkski, are you sure you didn't put ball gag into your google search????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahjongguy Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artisi Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 30 minutes ago, mahjongguy said: Like this: https://www.electricsolenoidvalves.com/3-4-12v-dc-electric-brass-solenoid-valve/ Doesn't solve the problem. It needs floating level actuated switch to sense pre-determined low level and high level. This has now been advise over and over, seems the penny hasn't dropped yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahjongguy Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 So, that electric valve would be installed by the tank and controlled by a 350 baht water height sensor installed into the tank. The existing float valve would become redundant but harmless. This solution would require a 12 vdc power source (aka wall wart). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elkski Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 (edited) I talked about using correct terminology but called it a variable level valve rather than switch. I keep all my old wall warts in a box in the garage. So useful. What is this ball valves switch you guys refer to? Is it a mechanical thing that closes the fill pipe? Or is it electrical? If its mechanical it can stay in place in case the newly installed solenoid valve fails or level sensing circuit fails. I would think a 24 v valve would be better than 12. What is the voltage required for that sonic switch? Edited March 2, 2020 by Elkski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahjongguy Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 In this thread some have referred to the standard in-tank float valve as a "ball valve" because the float is usually a big metal or plastic ball. It's confusing terminology, in that a ball valve is a manual inline valve with a round (rather than flat) gate inside, and isn't pertinent to this discussion. " What is the voltage required for that sonic switch? " Somic is one of many brands of level sensors. It is only a switch and thus doesn't require a particular voltage. What matters is that it's intended to handle low voltage and so cannot be used to directly turn off and on a 220v pump. So, the solution involves a cheap differential sensor, a cheap 12 or 24 vdc supply, and a matching solenoid (~US50), all located by the tank. There was mention earlier in this thread of replacing the ordinary float valve with a completely mechanical differential operating valve. It would be a great solution but they cost around US$250 and I suspect non-existent in Thailand. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sometimewoodworker Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 9 hours ago, mahjongguy said: Somic is one of many brands of level sensors. It is only a switch and thus doesn't require a particular voltage. What matters is that it's intended to handle low voltage and so cannot be used to directly turn off and on a 220v pump Sorry you are completely wrong. The Somic Auto Liquid Control Level Switch is rated for 7.5A @ 220AC and 15A @ 110VAC It is perfectly capable of (and is currently) switching my pump. You can use either the normally off contacts or normally on contacts 10 hours ago, mahjongguy said: So, the solution involves a cheap differential sensor, a cheap 12 or 24 vdc supply, and a matching solenoid (~US50), all located by the tank. No it doesn’t. The Somic switch on the tank along with wiring (2 X 2.5mm) leading to the switch by the back door is all that is needed 13 hours ago, Artisi said: It needs floating level actuated switch to sense pre-determined low level and high level. This has now been advise over and over, seems the penny hasn't dropped yet. So true. Specially as my water supply system has exactly the same setup as is being asked for using components that do the job. There are a couple of unimportant differences 11 hours ago, Elkski said: What is this ball valves switch you guys refer to? Is it a mechanical thing that closes the fill pipe? Or is it electrical? If its mechanical it can stay in place in case it is mechanical and is what I have installed in my tank and it works. 11 hours ago, Elkski said: in case the newly installed solenoid valve fails or level sensing circuit fails. I would think a 24 v valve would be better than 12. What is the voltage required for that sonic switch There would be NO solenoid Valve. the Somic is a switch. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sometimewoodworker Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 11 hours ago, Elkski said: What is this ball valves switch you guys refer to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artisi Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 5 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said: Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sometimewoodworker Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 10 hours ago, mahjongguy said: It's confusing terminology, in that a ball valve is a manual inline valve with a round (rather than flat) gate inside, No it isn’t. It has a ball float controlling a valve with a normal flat plunger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahjongguy Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artisi Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 40 minutes ago, mahjongguy said: Guess the above now solves all the OP problems. When talking about water tank control valves float (ball) valves, ball valve is understood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fruit Trader Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 The OP has done a runner and decided he will leave as is. He does not want an electrically operated solution because the storage tank location does not have the required facility. Meanwhile back on earth . . . Ball cock/Float valve - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballcock Ball valve - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_valve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertik Posted March 3, 2020 Author Share Posted March 3, 2020 Turns out Mahjongguy is technically correct when ascribing the correct nomenclature. That issue is contentious due to what terms are used colloquially. In trying to address my dilemma I was using what I should have referred to as ball cock float valve as opposed to a ball valve. You all have helped to contribute to a future solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertik Posted March 3, 2020 Author Share Posted March 3, 2020 4 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said: Sorry you are completely wrong. The Somic Auto Liquid Control Level Switch is rated for 7.5A @ 220AC and 15A @ 110VAC It is perfectly capable of (and is currently) switching my pump. You can use either the normally off contacts or normally on contacts I do believe the Somic Auto Liquid Control Level Switch might be just what I was looking for. 1 question......does this switch control the water level by closing a valve at the tank or must it be wired directly to the supply pump? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sometimewoodworker Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 14 minutes ago, albertik said: Turns out Mahjongguy is technically correct when ascribing the correct nomenclature. That issue is contentious due to what terms are used colloquially. In trying to address my dilemma I was using what I should have referred to as ball cock float valve as opposed to a ball valve. You all have helped to contribute to a future solution. I believe that I know exactly how to solve your question what parts are needed, where to put them and you will not need to change or add any electrical power. however there is a considerable difficulty in communication for some reason. A drawing of your current setup will be needed to be sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sometimewoodworker Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 6 minutes ago, albertik said: I do believe the Somic Auto Liquid Control Level Switch might be just what I was looking for. 1 question......does this switch control the water level by closing a valve at the tank or must it be wired directly to the supply pump? It does not control a valve. In all probability you should wire it to the switch you currently use beside your back door. Again a diagram will be needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertik Posted March 3, 2020 Author Share Posted March 3, 2020 3 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said: It does not control a valve. In all probability you should wire it to the switch you currently use beside your back door. Again a diagram will be needed. Thanks, I will try to make and forward some kind of diagram. This may take me a couple of days, so bear with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertik Posted March 3, 2020 Author Share Posted March 3, 2020 3 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said: It does not control a valve. In all probability you should wire it to the switch you currently use beside your back door. Again a diagram will be needed. I have an electric source next to my storage tank but it is on a separate circuit apart from the electric that operates the supply pump. . I am wondering if the electrical service next to my storage tank can be used with the prospective float sensor (inside the storage tank) to control the supply pump ( which is isolated from the storage tank, by about 30 meters) Currently I use the back door switch to turn on/off the supply pump as required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sometimewoodworker Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 1 minute ago, albertik said: I have an electric source next to my storage tank but it is on a separate circuit apart from the electric that operates the supply pump. . I am wondering if the electrical service next to my storage tank can be used with the prospective float sensor (inside the storage tank) to control the supply pump ( which is isolated from the storage tank, by about 30 meters) Currently I use the back door switch to turn on/off the supply pump as required. As I said you probably do not need any more power supply. 1) I need to understand where the tank (that you pump water into) is. 2)Where the back door switch to turn on/off the supply pump is. 3)If the back door switch to turn on/off the supply pump is a single pole or double pole switch. (How many wires going into the switch) please do not try to describe in words but draw a simple sketch as that will be much more clear. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artisi Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 The amount of time so far trying to understand what is going on, the design for a major water treatment pumping station could have been completed. How about a simple sketch showing what's what, where the pumps and power supplies are along with what controls what and how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertik Posted March 4, 2020 Author Share Posted March 4, 2020 14 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said: draw a simple sketch as that will be much more clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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