Migrants clash with Greek police at border after Turkey opens floodgates

[simple1]

On 3/2/2020 at 11:56 PM, gk10002000 said:

I do understand the immigration thing, both from a refugee point of view and from those that are just trying to move to what they hope is a better place.  But storming a border of a country and breaking that country's laws is tantamount to invading the country.

True. On the other side of the coin Turkey has refused to provide shelter / support for the additional refugees from Idlib. Accordingly, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Not surprising Turkey has declined to take on the addition burden considering they already provide for at least 3.8 million refugees / asylum seekers. Many returnees to Syria aren't being welcomed, but subject to interrogation and torture. Accordingly what would you do in their situation?

[ivor bigun]

57 minutes ago, simple1 said:

True. On the other side of the coin Turkey has refused to provide shelter / support for the additional refugees from Idlib. Accordingly, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Not surprising Turkey has declined to take on the addition burden considering they already provide for at least 3.8 million refugees / asylum seekers. Many returnees to Syria aren't being welcomed, but subject to interrogation and torture. Accordingly what would you do in their situation?

Go back where i came from ,why go somewhere where you are not wanted and hated so much? and where they fire tear gas at you to stop you coming,could it be the freebies?

ps dont you mean economic migrants?

Edited March 4, 2020 by ivor bigun

[Opl]

1 hour ago, simple1 said:

True. On the other side of the coin Turkey has refused to provide shelter / support for the additional refugees from Idlib. Accordingly, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Not surprising Turkey has declined to take on the addition burden considering they already provide for at least 3.8 million refugees / asylum seekers. Many returnees to Syria aren't being welcomed, but subject to interrogation and torture. Accordingly what would you do in their situation?

it"s the resume of ever conflicting muslim countries producing the exodus of their youth to non-muslim countries, in search of a better life since décades if not a century.

Greece says "enough" and so do european populations think. What would you do in their situation? 

Edited March 4, 2020 by Opl

[kingdong]

2 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

In Germany, it would take 8 years for an asylum seeker to achieve full German citizenship and be able to move freely within the EU, by which time they and their family would have learned German, found employment, attended German schools. Why would they then want to move to the UK?

There you go,why bother with all that performance when you can go to the uk and get it all on a plate,jumping the queue in citizens in need.aren,t they supposed to seek asylum in the first safe country they set foot in?seem to be a bit selective for people allegedly fleeing from danger to their lives.

[kingdong]

2 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

In Germany, it would take 8 years for an asylum seeker to achieve full German citizenship and be able to move freely within the EU, by which time they and their family would have learned German, found employment, attended German schools. Why would they then want to move to the UK?

Are they allowed to work whilst applying for political asylum?

[JustAnotherHun]

12 minutes ago, kingdong said:

Are they allowed to work whilst applying for political asylum?

AFAIK after three months. Same for denied asylum seekers who are here as a "tolerated".

[simple1]

2 hours ago, ivor bigun said:

Go back where i came from ,why go somewhere where you are not wanted and hated so much? and where they fire tear gas at you to stop you coming,could it be the freebies?

ps dont you mean economic migrants?

Do some research, Assad ain't exactly being helpful with returnees with ongoing arrests and torture. There are still approx 6 million IDPs in Syria, plus around six million Syrian refugees elsewhere.

 

As far as I know 'economic migrants' from Syria are a small minority. From memory approx 90% of Syrian refugees are assessed as genuine refugees. If you're currently in a country where you are denied human rights why would you not head for a location where basic human dignity is provided. Here in Australia it has been noted, if they can gain employment, (there is employment discrimination against refugees) refugees are hard workers who seek to improve their circumstances, not just try to live off the pitiful welfare provided. I read today the EU is, again belatedly, offering Turkey assistance to handle the huge influx from Idlib, hopefully the change in attitude will assist. Some more detail...

 

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/29/where-displaced-syrians-have-resettled/

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/eu-throws-support-greece-refugee-conflict-turkey-200303163750374.html

Edited March 4, 2020 by simple1

[evadgib]

30 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

No, there you go. My original question was, "What change has leaving the EU made to those from outside the EU who migrate to the UK?" I'll answer for you, "None, nada, zilch". So much for leaving the EU to solve the immigration problem.

The ink hasn't dried yet. These links are ample evidence that UK is a major player on the world stage (& this was only the first page!) :

 

"There is space for hope and for a brighter future for the Iraqi people"

 

PM call with Turkish President: 3 March 2020

 

Foreign Secretary travels to Riyadh to discuss Yemen response

 

Foreign Secretary's joint press conference Turkish Foreign Minister, March 2020

 

UN Human Rights Council 43: UK statement for Interactive Dialogue with the Special Rapporteur on the Sale and Sexual Exploitation of Children

Edited March 4, 2020 by evadgib

[JustAnotherHun]

1 hour ago, simple1 said:

Here in Australia it has been noted, if they can gain employment, (there is employment discrimination against refugees) refugees are hard workers who seek to improve their circumstances, not just try to live off the pitiful welfare provided.

And what exactly does Australia with illegal immigrants? How would Australia react if it had land borders and violent "refugees" in front? 

Edited March 4, 2020 by JustAnotherHun

[simple1]

19 hours ago, Opl said:

it"s the resume of ever conflicting muslim countries producing the exodus of their youth to non-muslim countries, in search of a better life since décades if not a century.

Greece says "enough" and so do european populations think. What would you do in their situation? 

The issue of young men seeking asylum is likely mainly twofold:

1) Don't wish to be conscripted into a dictator's oppressive military

2) Safer for young men to undertake the first steps, rather than other family members

 

If I were able to make a difference would liaise with UNHCR / and relevant government/NGOs to contribute additional funding / resources for the camps. In parallel pressure M.E. host countries to implement applicable laws and resources  to qualify as UN designated 'safe country'

[Laughing Gravy]

2 hours ago, simple1 said:

The issue of young men seeking asylum is likely mainly twofold:

1) Don't wish to be conscripted into a dictator's oppressive military

2) Safer for young men to undertake the first steps, rather than other family members

I would like to add to that.

3), Some countries emptied their jails, the men told to burn their passports. say they are from Syria, Libya and other places deemed oppressive. "Stick to your guns", new identity, new passport, don't allow them to take your finger prints, aim for free housing, free, schooling, free medical, free money. New Life.

 

[ivor bigun]

2 hours ago, simple1 said:

The issue of young men seeking asylum is likely mainly twofold:

1) Don't wish to be conscripted into a dictator's oppressive military

2) Safer for young men to undertake the first steps, rather than other family members

 

If I were able to make a difference would liaise with UNHCR / and relevant government/NGOs to contribute additional funding / resources for the camps. In parallel pressure M.E. host countries to implement applicable laws and resources  to qualify as UN designated 'safe country'

Excuses,excuses you always have excuses for them ,why? 

[Laughing Gravy]

On 3/2/2020 at 12:35 PM, smedly said:

Skynews interviewed some and they were Afgan - what were they doing in Syria ?

 

up to no good IMO

Yes agree and saw that too. Also some Iranian, Algerians and from Niger. Blows the Turks theory they are from Syria.

[Opl]

3 hours ago, simple1 said:

The issue of young men seeking asylum is likely mainly twofold:

1) Don't wish to be conscripted into a dictator's oppressive military

2) Safer for young men to undertake the first steps, rather than other family members

 

If I were able to make a difference would liaise with UNHCR / and relevant government/NGOs to contribute additional funding / resources for the camps. In parallel pressure M.E. host countries to implement applicable laws and resources  to qualify as UN designated 'safe country'

The main reason for youg muslim men to smuggle to Europe is the fact that there they can at least live and raise a family even without working, thanks to social welfare. For in their respective home countries, no work = no money = no honey, etc...  Don't underestimate the main economic motivation, behind so called" asylum" rights.

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Opl

[simple1]

16 minutes ago, Opl said:

The main reason for young muslim men to smuggle to Europe is the fact that there they can at least live and raise a family even without working, thanks to social welfare. For in their respective home countries, no work = no money = no honey, etc...  Don't underestimate the main economic motivation, behind so called" asylum" rights.

 

Your claim can only be empirically backed up by the number of declined asylum seeker refugee applications by country. Regards the OP, using Germany as it is the most frequent talking point, out of 46,146 application by Syrians in 2018 only 69 were rejected outright. Other origin countries such as Nigeria the rejection rate is about 50% of all applications. For the future it would be good for you to use easily available data rather than rhetoric.

 

https://www.asylumineurope.org/reports/country/germany/statistics

[simple1]

1 hour ago, ivor bigun said:

Excuses,excuses you always have excuses for them ,why? 

Not excuses, not rhetoric, Facts. give it a try for a change

[simple1]

57 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Yes agree and saw that too. Also some Iranian, Algerians and from Niger. Blows the Turks theory they are from Syria.

Has the Turkish government specifically claimed only Syrians being facilitated to the border with Greece?

[Opl]

24 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Your claim can only be empirically backed up by the number of declined asylum seeker refugee applications by country. Regards the OP, using Germany as it is the most frequent talking point, out of 46,146 application by Syrians in 2018 only 69 were rejected outright. Other origin countries such as Nigeria the rejection rate is about 50% of all applications. For the future it would be good for you to use easily available data rather than rhetoric.

 

https://www.asylumineurope.org/reports/country/germany/statistics

let me explain to you how things work, and how migrants know they can make it :

- to pretend to be an asylum seeker = no deportation while the case is supposed to be scrutinized… a challenge already for the people in charge of

- even if asylum is denied , deportation is not effective, since people are not kept in detention, but free to move

- if ever a child is born, the child is not deported, and as the child can't be separated from its parents, the family finally stays

- migrants without documents are not allowed to work, so they finally benefit of social welfare, reason why they prefer Europe to  S.A or the UAE, etc..

- of course they can work illegaly too, be employed by relatives, etc,  reason why they choose countries where they already have connections

- and finally they settle, help another relative to make the move, ans so on 

You will so understand why Erdogan migrants came from almost all régions of the world, Morocco, Pakistan, Iran, Irak, etc, etc..

keep your statistics and principles, and face the reality, smugglers are more cleaver than you imagine

Edited March 5, 2020 by Opl

[JustAnotherHun]

7 minutes ago, simple1 said:

using Germany as it is the most frequent talking point, out of 46,146 application by Syrians in 2018 only 69 were rejected outright. Other origin countries such as Nigeria the rejection rate is about 50% of all applications. For the future it would be good for you to use easily available data rather than rhetoric.

That's what happens when one thinks a 5 seconds Google session makes him an expert.

In 2019:

Syria: 83.7%

Nigeria: 6.9%

These are NOT the accepted asylum seekers, it is the "Gesamtschutzquote" meaning they can stay in the country for some reasons.

 

In 2019 about 62% of all asylum seekers (including Syriens) were denied.

Beeing denied sadly does not mean you're sitting in the next plane to where you belong. You can stay and enjoy the social welfare system and - after a while - you can apply for visas for your relatives.

[ivor bigun]

1 hour ago, simple1 said:

Not excuses, not rhetoric, Facts. give it a try for a change

Its mainly other muslims that always defends them ,why do you?

[Laughing Gravy]

1 hour ago, simple1 said:

Has the Turkish government specifically claimed only Syrians being facilitated to the border with Greece?

I think you will find they said from Syria.

 

So what were the other nationalities doing there. Building sand castles and buying candy floss and kiss me quick hats. Mostly all young men.

 

Doesn't take a genius to work out.

[simple1]

10 minutes ago, ivor bigun said:

Its mainly other muslims that always defends them ,why do you?

To repeat only providing facts. I lived among a Muslim community in Thailand for a number of years & never had any negative issues. My mother was a racist / bigot which I hated. My so called upbringing now manifests in my loathing of those who constantly post right of centre rhetoric; that is what I push back against. If members were to post factual content relating to Islamists - so far as I'm concerned - no problem. 

[simple1]

8 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I think you will find they said from Syria.

 

So what were the other nationalities doing there. Building sand castles and buying candy floss and kiss me quick hats. Mostly all young men.

 

<SNIP>

Although Turkey's threat was related to Syrian asylum seeker influx from Idlib, I don't believe Turkey confined themselves to Syrians, but to a more general statement talking to 'refugees'.

 

Concerning your second paragraph, I assume, as an example, Afghans fleeing tribal & ethnic civil wars. Of course there would be some economic refugees in the mix.

 

You and others are probably not interested, but some may be...

 

https://www.unhcr.org/en-au/news/press/2020/3/5e5d08ad4/unhcr-statement-situation-turkey-eu-border.html

 

 

[Opl]

" refugees" for their Survival,  you mean like Asia Bibi, or "refugees" by opportunity , because these migrants find life too hard in Turkey - that's what they declare when interviewed? or economic migrants?  

Edited March 5, 2020 by Opl

[JustAnotherHun]

Facts are:

Syrian "refugees" go back to the country they were "fleeing" from for holidays, weddings, family parties. Strange, isn't it?

 

As soon as a "refugee" is in Germany, it is nearly impossible to get rid of him if he is denied asylum.

The numbers of "refugees" that are obliged to leave the country are rising year by year (246000 by June 2019) while deportations decline (20000 in 2019).

 

If deported, a "refugee" just has to return to the German border to apply for "asylum" once more and the game begins again. 

 

 

 

 

[ivor bigun]

1 hour ago, simple1 said:

To repeat only providing facts. I lived among a Muslim community in Thailand for a number of years & never had any negative issues. My mother was a racist / bigot which I hated. My so called upbringing now manifests in my loathing of those who constantly post right of centre rhetoric; that is what I push back against. If members were to post factual content relating to Islamists - so far as I'm concerned - no problem. 

Most who live in muslim areas in Thailand are part of the community ,i take it you are then.i seem to remember some time ago you saying this ,while i have worked amongst them in the UK  ,i find the ones here are not the same,not so bad (apart from many down south) 

Edited March 5, 2020 by ivor bigun

[simple1]

22 minutes ago, ivor bigun said:

Most who live in muslim areas in Thailand are part of the community ,i take it you are then.i seem to remember some time ago you saying this ,while i have worked amongst them in the UK  ,i find the ones here are not the same,not so bad (apart from many down south) 

It's Off Topic, as have been a number of posts in this topic. However, see if Mods will permit your commentary & my last reply within this OP. Sure I was a member of the community, but not as a Muslim, but someone who's main interest was with Vedanta. As I have posted a few times on this forum I have no real interest in Abrahamic religions. In our house in Thailand I have a semi naked Hindu goddess statue in the lounge, as well as a photo of my guru on a wall - no issues / problems whatsoever. Again from my personal experience I have had no issues with Muslims anywhere in Thailand or Southern India. I have not visited the deep South.

Edited March 5, 2020 by simple1

[Opl]

"This map presents the current migratory situation in Europe. Each circle represents one of the main migratory routes into the EU. Click on a circle or one of the countries of origin to see more details."

https://frontex.europa.eu/along-eu-borders/migratory-map/

[ivor bigun]

30 minutes ago, simple1 said:

It's Off Topic, as have been a number of posts in this topic. However, see if Mods will permit your commentary & my last reply within this OP. Sure I was a member of the community, but not as a Muslim, but someone who's main interest was with Vedanta. As I have posted a few times on this forum I have no real interest in Abrahamic religions. In our house in Thailand I have a semi naked Hindu goddess statue in the lounge, as well as a photo of my guru on a wall - no issues / problems whatsoever. Again from my personal experience I have had no issues with Muslims anywhere in Thailand or Southern India. I have not visited the deep South.

As i said i have never had a problem with muslims here in Pattaya ,in fact i used to joke with one outside the mosque on Sukhumvit many years ago ,he sold grilled beef and i used to ask for pork ,we both laughed.but as i said those that i met that ended up in the UK were vastly different ,and the ones that are coming now i can only say ,seem to be the lowest of the low ,unlike the ones who came legally and lived peacefully a long time ago, but even these  changed once the mosques and the ranting preachers came.

[thaibeachlovers]

I saw the news item on Al Jazeera today about the clashes on the Greek border.

They were all fit young men that seemed well fed and unharmed.

Also mentioned that the Greek navy has over 50 vessels out turning back the boats and the new policy is to take new illegal immigrants to Athens and then deport them back without a hearing.

The tide is beginning to turn, thanks to Erdogan.