Third World In Whose Eyes?

[ThaiGoon]

Got any harder figures than a wikimap?

Here. Look at table 45.

http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/publi...UNPAN015292.pdf

The latest was 2001 data. I guess, if wikipedia is to be trusted, Thailand actually has improved in terms of income distribution.

Also if you don't trust the data provied by wiki, then please feel free to present the one of your own that can contradict what I just posted. I'm looking forward to seeing it. The account of personal experiences shouldn't count.

Edited April 8, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[ThaiGoon]

Don't know what you just read there, but Gini seems to sup[port me on this. heh

Greg

Right, it does. I hope you are not another jayjayjayjay who can't seem to read a table or a graph.

Actually, look at table 47 (Proportion of population below national poverty line: 1988-2002) from the UN link. It's pretty clear there.

Edited April 8, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[Maigo6]

skyscrapers and 10 lane highways count for very little when the police can murder and not be held accountable , local and national politicians are able to form policy and award contracts to further their own greed and are rarely held accountable , and the rule of law is not enforced uniformly.

So it's kinda like the USA then.....................

[cdnvic]

I would think the the amount of very wealthy people in the US would skew those figures somewhat. While Thailand does have a growing middle class, it's still nowhere close to the US in standard of living.

Besides, it's not all about personal wealth and income. Third world has to do a lot with roadways sitting half built, and and gross inefficiencies in government due to corruption and lack of accountability.

[ThaiGoon]

skyscrapers and 10 lane highways count for very little when the police can murder and not be held accountable , local and national politicians are able to form policy and award contracts to further their own greed and are rarely held accountable , and the rule of law is not enforced uniformly.

So it's kinda like the USA then.....................

True that!!! :D

[naka]

Thailand is a very, very poor country.

I believe the elevated tollways have also been built in the last ten years as well.

Just a couple of corrections. Firstly, Thailand's GDP per Capita is $9,100 (2006 est.) per CIA factbook. And that's considered a mid income country, not a "very very poor country." And secondly, the first stage expressway in Bangkok was completed and opened in 1987.

Anyway, I generally agree with almost everything that's been said by everyone.

Statistics Statistics and da(m)ned lies !

This US$ 9,100 is GDP - per capita (PPP)

Your post would suggest to many readers that the average Thai earns Bt 320,000 P.A.

Not So !.

These figures are well and truly skewed by the imbalance of wealth in Thailand.

Better to look at the median numbers.

Naka.

Edited April 8, 2007 by naka

[andook]

I would think the the amount of very wealthy people in the US would skew those figures somewhat. While Thailand does have a growing middle class, it's still nowhere close to the US in standard of living.

Besides, it's not all about personal wealth and income. Third world has to do a lot with roadways sitting half built, and and gross inefficiencies in government due to corruption and lack of accountability.

The US economy seems to be increasingly reliant on illegal labour from over the border, and its "grey economy" profits from cultivation of marijuana and the porn business are massive too.

[cdnvic]

The US economy seems to be increasingly reliant on illegal labour from over the border, and its "grey economy" profits from cultivation of marijuana and the porn business are massive too.

There's a reason people learn economics in universities and not by watching CNN.

[Prakanong]

skyscrapers and 10 lane highways count for very little when the police can murder and not be held accountable , local and national politicians are able to form policy and award contracts to further their own greed and are rarely held accountable , and the rule of law is not enforced uniformly.

So it's kinda like the USA then.....................

True that!!! :D

But what are the consequences say in Thailand and the USA for being caught al la the Enron players and the like - I think that is the difference some point out.

Yes there are laws in place in both countries but the risk of being sent to jail or even prosecuted is different is it not?

However there is no doubt Thailand has developed a lot recently even in the 15 years I have been going, living and travelling on business there. The infrastructure has improved tremendously but now it need to be more widespread and not just say Bangkok etc.

Edited April 8, 2007 by Prakanong

[Heng]

No matter what a nation's status is or whatever your origin, we all live lives of different classes (first to nth world).

I think we hear 'third world' a lot on this board because many foreigners move here and adopt 'third world' lives. Some even do so right after they spend time enjoying the 'first world' parts of Thailand on holiday. They submerse themselves by marrying a local husband or wife who is from X generations of subsistance farming, surround themselves by poor and often unscrupulous inlaws whom they can barely communicate with, heck, some suddenly find themselves living in homes with real dirt floors and using well water, ...to the point that they assume that this indeed must be the norm for everyone. You can sometimes see how some go a little 'off balance' when they are confronted by foreigners and locals who aren't living in the 'third world' as they are.

It's akin to moving across town into the ghetto in a lot of western cities or moving into the middle of an Native American reservation, staying long enough until you 'go native,' and allowing the norms of those locales to make you feel bitter towards the entire nation and anyone who chooses not to partake in that particular lifestyle.

[jumnien]

No matter what a nation's status is or whatever your origin, we all live lives of different classes (first to nth world).

I think we hear 'third world' a lot on this board because many foreigners move here and adopt 'third world' lives. Some even do so right after they spend time enjoying the 'first world' parts of Thailand on holiday. They submerse themselves by marrying a local husband or wife who is from X generations of subsistance farming, surround themselves by poor and often unscrupulous inlaws whom they can barely communicate with, heck, some suddenly find themselves living in homes with real dirt floors and using well water, ...to the point that they assume that this indeed must be the norm for everyone. You can sometimes see how some go a little 'off balance' when they are confronted by foreigners and locals who aren't living in the 'third world' as they are.

It's akin to moving across town into the ghetto in a lot of western cities or moving into the middle of an Native American reservation, staying long enough until you 'go native,' and allowing the norms of those locales to make you feel bitter towards the entire nation and anyone who chooses not to partake in that particular lifestyle.

Keen observation. There's also the overweight alcoholic colonial expat type who uses the term "third world" derrogatorially everytime something doesn't go his way or he doesn't get what he wants. He'd cry if he were a baby, but as a semi-adult he's force to adopt an air of superiority or anger. He knows no other way.

[bkk_mike]

It is always difficult to classify countries so roughly into generalizations. Several posters here have brought the US as an example, being the richest and most powerful country on earth. But in terms of poverty, wealth distribution, health service, education and social justice the US definitely lags far behind Scandinavian countries, which are maybe the top in those terms worldwide.

Have you looked at Scandinavian tax rates.

There's a reason why Scandinavia has low income inequality... - It's because at the bottom end, they have a welfare state that pays out quite a lot of money, and at the top end, people emigrate when they can no longer stand the amount of tax they're paying. (It's why you have so many Scandinavians in the UK / US / rest of Europe).

I'm not saying all high-earning Scandinavians leave - just that enough leave to lower their income inequality figures...

Edited April 8, 2007 by bkk_mike

[OlRedEyes]

Dunno if this really needs much discussion? Taking a walk down the road, any road, with your eyes, ears & nose slightly open should answer the question pretty quick... If it doesn't, just try and buy something of quality. Or go complain at the local police station about their performance. Or ask for a receipt at immigration for the tea money. Or check if the tour bus carries a spare. Or...

[Prakanong]

Thaigoon has pointed out the Gini Index and there are others such as the UN's HDI which has Thailand at 74 in the world in 2006

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...Index#endnote_2

I think given over all indices Thailand is not 3rd world in any technical sense if the term 3rd world can have a technical meaning any more! NIC (Newly Industrialised Country) is the correct term for Thailand now I believe.

The term 3rd world is used here and on other forums as a catch all though.

Would Amyarta Sen be talking about Thailand developing now with a recent coup to end democracy and not forgetting the rampant endemic corruption and patchy rule of law

I think many here are discussing apples and oranges when they discuss 3rd world - there is the hard technical figures as opposed to the soft corruption et al which has such an adverse affect on quality of life.

[thaihome]

...Thailand is spending (wasting?) millions of baht daily propping up its currency. This money could be better used to pay decent salaries. THEN - clamp down on bribes and corruption.

Peter

Uh, "propping up its currency"? I don't think so. If anything, BOT is spending millions (and it is not VAT revenue) trying to weaken it.

TH

[alexth]

Third world in front of the opened eyes

[jumnien]

Cheney - Halliburton. Who says corruption on a very large scale is endemic to the third world.

[cdnvic]

Cheney - Halliburton. Who says corruption on a very large scale is endemic to the third world.

Ok, you bribe three cops in American Cities to get out of speeding tickets, I'll bribe three in Thailand for the same reason. Whoever goes to jail first loses.

[Prakanong]

Cheney - Halliburton. Who says corruption on a very large scale is endemic to the third world.

If it could be proved many would go to jail for it and I bet there are plenty looking for proof.

When does favouritism become corruption?

When it does come out in say the USA with ENRON and the UK with Distillers/Guinnes they do get openly prosecuted and go to jail.

[dantilley]

I think it's impossible these days to pigeon-hole countries into first or third world status. It is especially difficult with Thailand, which is third world in many ways but definitely first world in others. Some examples:

First world:

Roads (generally)

Technology which is generally available to the populace

Hospitals

Shopping malls and other entertainment venues such as cinemas, bowling alleys, etc.

Third World:

Levels of corruption

Sanitation and cleanliness in many places

Standard of housing and accommodation, especially outside of Bangkok

Education standards

[jumnien]

All you people who write home about how brave you are to be hanging out in the third world country of Thailand are, well, let's just say exaggerating a bit.

[bingobongo]

All you people who write home about how brave you are to be hanging out in the third world country of Thailand are, well, let's just say exaggerating a bit.

mdeland, sorry your midlife crisis has not yet subsided

anyway third world is defined as a "country with a small middle class and a much smaller ruling elite are considered Third World countries as well, since their populations are overwhelmingly rural, agrarian and poor."

[bannork]

Thailand IS a third world country, the only place in thailand that doesnt have grinding poverty is Bangkok and some areas of bangkok are affected as well. ever look behind the buildings and walls and see the slums?

90 percent of thailand has grinding poverty, THATS what defines third world

Greg

Have you ever lived upcountry in Thailand? Motorbikes, at least one per house, pickups every few houses, TV in every house. Many people are living in poverty but it's hardly grinding. Income that never reaches the taxman, remits from relatives working in Bangkok or abroad, plus a diet that consists of rice from their fields ( free) with cheap vegetables, fish and meat.

How come so many Thai men can afford to be drunk frequently, and often as not on beer nowadays rather than the cheaper lao khao ( white whisky)?

My nieces went to school on 10 baht a day, they finished Mattayom 6 and now have jobs in factories in Chonburi, earning 6,000 to 9,000 baht a month, depending on the overtime. They don't drink or smoke and have saved about 150,000 baht in 3 years, enough to start a shop in the village.

There's millions of Issan people with dreams like theirs.

[OlRedEyes]

A rather dicey, already crumbling infrastructure. Corruption at all levels, unhidden and accepted. Military junta. Even the judicial system is, shall we say, rather suspect. Grinding poverty outside of the smaller part of the major cities. No real rule of law. No indication of acceptance of universal human rights. Failed education system. Hmmm....

I'll have to ponder....

[think_too_mut]

All you people who write home about how brave you are to be hanging out in the third world country of Thailand are, well, let's just say exaggerating a bit.

Exaggerated a lot. Thailand is a knidergaten-safe compared to Brasil and some other tropical destinations.

One thing that puzzles me is - several posters mentioned "good hospitals".

Poor sods, don't understand that 2-3 good hospitals (catering mainly to foreigners) do not constitute a health system of a country.

Of course, I am not going to throw a stone at Thailand. It may be a third world country but what hel_l the people complaining about Thailand have left?

Maybe 1st world countries but "havens" like Leichester, UK or Des Plains, Ohio.

IMO, life anywhere else, in Thailand among the several alternatives, looks and feels better than there.

[Maigo6]

All you people who write home about how brave you are to be hanging out in the third world country of Thailand are, well, let's just say exaggerating a bit.

I'm quite happy in Thailand, warts n' all.

I mean it ain't like Thailand is a dangerous lawless society with danger lurking on every corner, if some see it as such a place, what the heck keeps you here?

I know many Farangs in Thailand...in my experience, it's the guys that have slipped up making bad investments etc, and have lost a lot of money, or those that try to live on a shoestring budget that do most of the complaining.

The well off Farangs that have zero money worries are in general quite happy. If they were not happy, they would simply move on. Unless they are completely insane that is, and decide to spend the rest of their lives moaning and whinging.

Others cannot afford to move on and therefore have to stay in a Country they do not like, to them I say this......................................

"It ain't Thailands fault, it's yours, you should have planned your future better, what fool would invest all his money in Land and House in a 3rd world country where you cannot OWN land, but you knew that didn't you, so you tried to skirt the law by forming a bogus company didn't you !! And now you spend all your time complaining about things that existed when you first came to Thailand and will exist long after you're gone"!!

Have a nice Singkhran.

Edited April 8, 2007 by Maigo6

[OlRedEyes]

I know many Farangs in Thailand...in my experience, it's the guys that have slipped up making bad investments etc, and have lost a lot of money, or those that try to live on a shoestring budget that do most of the complaining.

I, and I suspect there are many like me, haven't made bad investments, lost any money, and don't live on a shoestring budget. But then, I don't complain.v I observe, and discuss.

[PeaceBlondie]

Cheney - Halliburton. Who says corruption on a very large scale is endemic to the third world.

One of my almanacs falls open at the page of "World's most corrupt leaders" from www.transparency.org The leaders of Indonesia, Philipines, Zaire, Nigeria, Serbia, Haiti, Peru, Ukraine, and Nicaragua - hardly a "First world" or fully developed nation in the group - stole as much as 35 billion US$.

Who says corruption on a very large scale is endemic to the third world? The facts.

After retirement from our govt. jobs, where we could have been offerred big bribes, Benny and I realized we only got one real 'bribe offer' in 45 years of service - and that was from an Asian businesswoman who didn't know you couldn't bribe American officials!!

[jezchesters]

Thailand is not a third world country for a couple of reasons - the first being that technically there are no third-world countries since the collapse of the second-world (as the OP mentioned).

The correct terminology is 'developing country' or 'less developed country'. The UN uses a system called the HDI (Human Development Index) to guage a country's development based on a myriad of factors. Development is not just guaged on how much money is earnt.

A rating of less than 0.500 denotes a 'less developed country. Thailand rates at 0.778, only 0.144 behind Germany and 21 places above Turkey: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_hum_dev_ind

Of course, you can always argue with those amateurs at the UN can't you?

Edited April 8, 2007 by jezchesters

[taxexile]

amatuers at the UN

well , at least those 4 words of your post makes sense.