Authentication Of A Spanish Poder

[Toni]

I need an authentification of a "poder" at the Spanish Embassy here.

As it seems there are no Notaries in Thailand according the following: "El poder debe otorgarse ante el Cónsul español o bien ante Notario, en este último caso revestido de la “apostilla” de la Convención de La Haya de 5 de Octubre de 1961" I cannot use their services.

Now the Embassy needs more than 5 weeks to see me, to put the seals and to check some ID-s which is too long for me.

Somebody the same experience? When I am in quite urgent need of this my only option is to fly-out to Spain or are there surrounding countries with faster services or which are more Spanish directed (Philippines?).

[leisurely]

Pardon my ignorance, what is a poder? I can't be the only person to wonder. (I hope)

[PeaceBlondie]

I think that Toni is using a word that means "the power" as in a power of attorney. However, maybe I'm wrong.

Toni, the term 'notary' may not be commonly used in English in Thailand. Can our British friends give the equivalent term, or maybe the Thais here? The other term apostilla makes no sense to this American, since my crummy little dictionary only identifies it as a marginal notation.

Toni, do you need some documents sworn to as to their authenticity? As to the fact that you are the person stating the facts? Do you need to delegate somebody as your power of attorney?

And just as a wild guess: perhaps you are a foreign teacher who is being asked by your prospective employer to 'verify' that your academic credentials are authentic. Trust me, if you give them something in Spanish, they won't understand, but maybe it won't matter then, anyway.

[Toni]

Pardon my ignorance, what is a poder? I can't be the only person to wonder. (I hope)

well, my humble apologizes, but that is why I used this phrase: to attract only the people who might have had experience with the situation. Or am I rude to do this in the way I did, i.e. to "exclude" a reader who can be interested as well? Yes, a "poder" is a power of attorney indeed.

[Toni]

I think that Toni is using a word that means "the power" as in a power of attorney. However, maybe I'm wrong.

yes, you are right

Toni, the term 'notary' may not be commonly used in English in Thailand. Can our British friends give the equivalent term, or maybe the Thais here? The other term apostilla makes no sense to this American, since my crummy little dictionary only identifies it as a marginal notation.

sorry for leaving my big English dictionaries in Europe and as English or American or Australian is not my mother tongue I might struggle sometimes with words which are not very well used or recognized in English or American or Australian languages.

Toni, do you need some documents sworn to as to their authenticity? As to the fact that you are the person stating the facts? Do you need to delegate somebody as your power of attorney?

yes, that is exactly what I meant!

And just as a wild guess: perhaps you are a foreign teacher who is being asked by your prospective employer to 'verify' that your academic credentials are authentic. Trust me, if you give them something in Spanish, they won't understand, but maybe it won't matter then, anyway.

as the word "teacher" is a loaded word nowadays and I was not one of the thousands, you can easily see because of ,apparently, my poor knowledge of the English language, your wild guesses are wild indeed unfortunately! I am so far that I understand that, when I have to supply such a thing to be used locally, I have to supply this in English here in Thailand! It is the only language of the 5 I am speaking which can be understood locally. Might be the guess could be that the "poder" has to be used in Spain?

Edited April 8, 2007 by Toni

[Artisi]

A power of attorney is not some you use to certify your documents - a power of attorney is someone authorised by yourself to act on your behalf with your full authority in any matter.

If you need someone to certify that you have signed a legally binding document by way of witnessing your signature - you need a notary or in Thailand a government official can witness you signature, the level of the gov official varies dependng on the level of authority needed for the document - any Thai lawyer can advise you on this matter. I believe there are some notaries in Thailand - again ask a Thai lawyer for direction.

If you need to have a witness to a document you have prepared appointing someone to act on your behalf with your Power or Attorney - again consult with a Thai lawyer to see what level of authority you need to witness your signature.

Edited April 8, 2007 by Artisi

[Toni]

I think that Toni is using a word that means "the power" as in a power of attorney. However, maybe I'm wrong.

Toni, the term 'notary' may not be commonly used in English in Thailand. Can our British friends give the equivalent term, or maybe the Thais here? The other term apostilla makes no sense to this American, since my crummy little dictionary only identifies it as a marginal notation.

Toni, do you need some documents sworn to as to their authenticity? As to the fact that you are the person stating the facts? Do you need to delegate somebody as your power of attorney?

And just as a wild guess: perhaps you are a foreign teacher who is being asked by your prospective employer to 'verify' that your academic credentials are authentic. Trust me, if you give them something in Spanish, they won't understand, but maybe it won't matter then, anyway.

Concerning the term "notary", as I said before, I left my English dictionaries in Europe, I "Googled" and found an explanation under: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notary_public. I am getting a bit of my self-confidence back again, pffffffff! For eventual further postings from my side it is good to know that I refer always to the basic English language because I never know whom I have to please: the American, the Australian or the British. And as we are more British-orientated in Europe.......

[PeaceBlondie]

Toni, thank you for your reply. My wild guess was loco.

I asked you three different questions, and you replied "yes...exactly." To all three questions? We still are confused, not knowing whether you need a power of attorney, or just the seal of a notary public.

We are not yet among the cogniscenti. Or, ellos quienes lo conocen.

And now I have to stop before I break the usual forum rule that we only use English in the ThaiVisa forums. However, if you are in Thailand needing to get proper verification for documents that are in Spanish, some use of that language is unavoidable.

Good luck.

[Naam]

The other term apostilla makes no sense to this American

apostilla (english "apostille") internationally acknowledged notarized document with a special "apostille sticker" according to The Hague convention dated back to the 1920s. not every country has ratified this convention but Spain has.

[Naam]

As it seems there are no Notaries in Thailand according the following: "El poder debe otorgarse ante el Cónsul español o bien ante Notario, en este último caso revestido de la “apostilla” de la Convención de La Haya de 5 de Octubre de 1961" I cannot use their services.

correct as Thailand is not a signatory of The Hague convention. assuming you are not a spanish national your embassy or consulate could notarize the required document with attached apostille. some embassies are however reluctant and ask for proof that you understand the language of the document before notrizing your signature.

[Toni]

A power of attorney is not some you use to certify your documents - a power of attorney is someone authorised by yourself to act on your behalf with your full authority in any matter.

If you need someone to certify that you have signed a legally binding document by way of witnessing your signature - you need a notary or in Thailand a government official can witness you signature, the level of the gov official varies dependng on the level of authority needed for the document - any Thai lawyer can advise you on this matter. I believe there are some notaries in Thailand - again ask a Thai lawyer for direction.

If you need to have a witness to a document you have prepared appointing someone to act on your behalf with your Power or Attorney - again consult with a Thai lawyer to see what level of authority you need to witness your signature.

Spot on, thanks! The only problem seems to be that there are no Notaries in Thailand "accepted" by the, in Spanish mentioned, convention of The Hague as the Spanish Embassy told me. And when they are speaking about an official Notary in this convention I am in doubt that they accept such a confirmation from any Thai official. Notaries are very strict in following the rules. And that is very good, thats why they can be trusted for 100%. And, as I wrote, my problem is that the time the Spanish Embassy takes is too long for me! Anyhow I will follow your advice to look for a lawyer who might know such a Notary and I will visit the Embassy to ask them personally if it is really necessary to take that long because I only had info by telephone.

Thanks again!

[Toni]

Toni, thank you for your reply. My wild guess was loco.

I asked you three different questions, and you replied "yes...exactly." To all three questions? We still are confused, not knowing whether you need a power of attorney, or just the seal of a notary public.

We are not yet among the cogniscenti. Or, ellos quienes lo conocen.

And now I have to stop before I break the usual forum rule that we only use English in the ThaiVisa forums. However, if you are in Thailand needing to get proper verification for documents that are in Spanish, some use of that language is unavoidable.

Good luck.

yes, loco perdido!

no, I responded with yes at: "Toni, do you need some documents sworn to as to their authenticity? As to the fact that you are the person stating the facts? Do you need to delegate somebody as your power of attorney?"

We are not yet among the cogniscenti.

I am not too clever, but this sounds Italian ???

Or, ellos quienes lo conocen.

por lo menos algien puede saber me pareze que hay Farangs Espanol en ese Forum, seguro!

And now I have to stop before I break the usual forum rule that we only use English in the ThaiVisa forums.

But which English??? (lol)

thanks anyway

[Toni]

The other term apostilla makes no sense to this American

apostilla (english "apostille") internationally acknowledged notarized document with a special "apostille sticker" according to The Hague convention dated back to the 1920s. not every country has ratified this convention but Spain has.

there is my problem! No, it was the convention from 1961: "la Convención de La Haya de 5 de Octubre de 1961"

[Toni]

I think that Toni is using a word that means "the power" as in a power of attorney. However, maybe I'm wrong.

Toni, the term 'notary' may not be commonly used in English in Thailand. Can our British friends give the equivalent term, or maybe the Thais here? The other term apostilla makes no sense to this American, since my crummy little dictionary only identifies it as a marginal notation.

Toni, do you need some documents sworn to as to their authenticity? As to the fact that you are the person stating the facts? Do you need to delegate somebody as your power of attorney?

And just as a wild guess: perhaps you are a foreign teacher who is being asked by your prospective employer to 'verify' that your academic credentials are authentic. Trust me, if you give them something in Spanish, they won't understand, but maybe it won't matter then, anyway.

How clever Google is!! Now I found on the right hand side of the topic a lot of links to public Notaries..........!

[A_Traveller]

My understanding is, and has been for many years that Thailand is NOT a signatory of the "Council of Notaries" protocol. however, the Lawyers Council Of Thailand did introduce a course in 2003 to provide for the administration of oaths and to attest to the authenticity of signatures. This course is limited to a lawyer currently licensed by the Lawyers Council of Thailand to practice law.

A lawyer having passed this course would be able to provide certification of same, which in addition to a current valid licence to practice, such applied certification {stamps & seals} would be viewed as equivalent to a notary, even though such a designation has no formal meaning in Thai law.

Confused.... TIT

Regards

/edit spelling//

Edited April 8, 2007 by A_Traveller

[Toni]

My understanding is, and has been for many years that Thailand is NOT a signatory of the "Council of Notaries" protocol. however, the Lawyers Council Of Thailand did introduce a course in 2003 to provide for the administration of oaths and to attest to the authenticity of signatures. This course is limited to a lawyer currently licensed by the Lawyers Council of Thailand to practice law.

A lawyer having passed this course would be able to provide certification of same, which in addition to a current valid licence to practice, such applied certification {stamps & seals} would be viewed as equivalent to a notary, even though such a designation has no formal meaning in Thai law.

Confused.... TIT

Regards

/edit spelling//

Yes, they can of course, but I think that these Thai "courses" are not sufficient to meet the qualifications demanded to act as an official Notary according the Conventions. It is a very high ranked profession where privacy and integrity must be fully guaranteed.

It seems that Thailand still not can meet the specifications according to the Convention or do not want to sign that Convention. And as long this is not happening I cannot find such an approved Notary in Thailand!

[A_Traveller]

To clarify:-

Thai governments over time have decided not to ratify the convention. There is nothing anyone, including the lawyers themselves, can do about that.

Depending on your requirements I would suggest that one option would be to go to an international law firm with representative offices in both Spain and Thailand. This would allow a degree of confidence in both jurisdictions.

Regards

/edit amendment //

Edited April 8, 2007 by A_Traveller

[El Taco Loco]

Toni, try the Spanish embassy in KL. Faster service. No need to "volar a la madre patria".

[Toni]

To clarify:-

Thai governments over time have decided not to ratify the convention. There is nothing anyone, including the lawyers themselves, can do about that.

"where privacy and integrity must be fully guaranteed"

Depending on your requirements I would suggest that one option would be to go to an international law firm with representative offices in both Spain and Thailand. This would allow a degree of confidence in both jurisdictions.

Regards

/edit amendment //

That is also an option but not a guarantee because when it does not work out I have lost time again.

Anyhow, it is better to use the three guaranteed options I have: waiting until the Embassy finished their job, flying to Spain or finding a country near bye and accepted by the convention.

At least this topic was a bit useful so readers can now know a bit more about Notaries and their conventions whenever they need them (and one needs a Notary more than once in a lifetime) and that the meaning "English" can be a very disputable one, even the language itself.

[Toni]

Toni, try the Spanish embassy in KL. Faster service. No need to "volar a la madre patria".

THAT is a good remark! Thanks! Do you have an experience with that or do I have to phone first? To be honest, I am not waiting "de volver a Espana". Although I felt Spaniard after 15 years this nationalism is fading out after being in Thailand now!

[A_Traveller]

It would seem from the above you are disinclined to use the services of a Thai Lawyer, even one who is part of a international legal firm, since, in your opinion such a lawyer does not meet your requirements of privacy and integrity.

I find that unfortunate. However, again, I state that given the lack of clarity in your posts the international legal firm would be a suitable operational approach.

Further, the standing of suitably qualified lawyers as specified in my post above should meet international criteria, the process being put in place to provide such a service. The real issue is not the quality of the legal service, but the fact that successive governments have not ratified the convention. After all any lawyer can only act in accordance with the jurisdiction.

Regards

PS Just to add that the legalisation of documents, to use the correct UK legal term, issued and notarised {sworn and an oath commissioned in UK terms} in the UK is undertaken by a division within the FCO in London only, not by the Embassy nor High Commission.

PPS Each country interpolates these rules as they see fit. The Hague Convention is designed, in a perfect world, to allow legalisation to work transparently across jurisdictions, the reality is that each legal system believes its way is preferable.

/edit add PS//

/edit 2 add PPS//

Edited April 8, 2007 by A_Traveller

[Naam]

there is my problem! No, it was the convention from 1961: "la Convención de La Haya de 5 de Octubre de 1961"

1961 was one of the "updates" Toni but that's irrelevant for you as you won't find any notary in Thailand who meets the specified requirements. i had a similar problem recently and had to fly with my wife to Brazil were we sold some immobile property because the brazilian embassy refused to notarize our procuração.

[Naam]

However, again, I state that given the lack of clarity in your posts the international legal firm would be a suitable operational approach.

unfortunately that's not an option for Toni as no international legal firm exists in Thailand which is empowered to notarize with apostille.

[Toni]

It would seem from the above you are disinclined to use the services of a Thai Lawyer, even one who is part of a international legal firm, since, in your opinion such a lawyer does not meet your requirements of privacy and integrity.

I find that unfortunate. However, again, I state that given the lack of clarity in your posts the international legal firm would be a suitable operational approach.

Further, the standing of suitably qualified lawyers as specified in my post above would meet international criteria, the process being put in place to provide such a service. The real issue is not the quality of the legal service, but the fact that successive governments have not ratified the convention. After all any lawyer can only act in accordance with the jurisdiction.

Regards

/edit no change//

sorry, that is not what I state or want to state! Such a lawyer MIGHT BE rejected because of the convention-rules and than I am loosing time again! That is what I am afraid of! I am not afraid for integrity of such an institute as long as I have my papers done now! I am sure and convinced about the quality and knowledge of these people. Furthermore I meant that the Thai officials cannot meet the rules of the convention might be because of a certain name and fame they have!

For the lack of clarity: sorry I either cannot wright proper or I am too hasty or my knowledge of the English language is miserable or, again, some appearing differences in between the 3 main English languages.

Anyway, thanks for your first answer! This option is very good and I shall always use such an institute whenever I have lack of a lawyer and not only because of the language problems but I think a Farang can express easier his problems to another Farang because of the differences in culture are not that big to make ones problem easier understandable.

[chownah]

Haven't been able to maintain interest and read all of the posts here but just wanted to add that the US Embassy has a notary service available but seems like its pricey....and I think you have to be a US citizen but not sure on that.....Spain might accept a US notary stamp but don't know....you could ask them (at the Spanish Embassy).

[Toni]

Haven't been able to maintain interest and read all of the posts here but just wanted to add that the US Embassy has a notary service available but seems like its pricey....and I think you have to be a US citizen but not sure on that.....Spain might accept a US notary stamp but don't know....you could ask them (at the Spanish Embassy).

thanks for your tip! I'll do so to-morrow. Which Notary is not pricey; they are all protected by their corporation and their cartel is very solid. I am almost sure that a American Notary will be accepted.

thanks again!!

[Tywais]

Haven't been able to maintain interest and read all of the posts here but just wanted to add that the US Embassy has a notary service available but seems like its pricey....and I think you have to be a US citizen but not sure on that.....Spain might accept a US notary stamp but don't know....you could ask them (at the Spanish Embassy).

thanks for your tip! I'll do so to-morrow. Which Notary is not pricey; they are all protected by their corporation and their cartel is very solid. I am almost sure that a American Notary will be accepted.

thanks again!!

As far as I know the US notary service is only for documents issued from the US and not other countries. E-mail or call first.

[Toni]

Haven't been able to maintain interest and read all of the posts here but just wanted to add that the US Embassy has a notary service available but seems like its pricey....and I think you have to be a US citizen but not sure on that.....Spain might accept a US notary stamp but don't know....you could ask them (at the Spanish Embassy).

thanks for your tip! I'll do so to-morrow. Which Notary is not pricey; they are all protected by their corporation and their cartel is very solid. I am almost sure that a American Notary will be accepted.

thanks again!!

As far as I know the US notary service is only for documents issued from the US and not other countries. E-mail or call first.

ok, thanks

I the mean time I mailed KL and Manila

[bina]

since my country does not do the apostille thing, all my forms went thru my embassy, and then back in home country thru notary who swears that the original and the copy/tranlation are the same; that is all he notarizes... and it costs per page/per word sometimes (they have a price list among all notaries) and in additon goes thru the law courts for part of the notary procedure... but the notary takes care of that also.

the notary is also a translator specialist or sub contracts out to a translator who is also a notary for that particular language (did i explain this clearly?) ... it took me three weeks in home country... it is not a fast procedure as far as i can tell, anywhere, nor is it cheap. lots of papers with seals/stamps/ribbons on each page.

israel likes to make everything doubly complex so every document i have has three pages of signed stamped ribboned pages to go with it. and the notary places his own certificate of proof of notary (his authorization and declaration) tranlsated

bina

[Toni]

since my country does not do the apostille thing, all my forms went thru my embassy, and then back in home country thru notary who swears that the original and the copy/tranlation are the same; that is all he notarizes... and it costs per page/per word sometimes (they have a price list among all notaries) and in additon goes thru the law courts for part of the notary procedure... but the notary takes care of that also.

the notary is also a translator specialist or sub contracts out to a translator who is also a notary for that particular language (did i explain this clearly?) ... it took me three weeks in home country... it is not a fast procedure as far as i can tell, anywhere, nor is it cheap. lots of papers with seals/stamps/ribbons on each page.

israel likes to make everything doubly complex so every document i have has three pages of signed stamped ribboned pages to go with it. and the notary places his own certificate of proof of notary (his authorization and declaration) tranlsated

bina

when they are doing the same for Europe (backwards and forwards Thailand-Europe) I can understand why it takes soooooo long for a 10 minutes job, really 10 minutes, when I am going to the local Notary (in Spain)! It may take a part of the day before I can collect the papers or when he needs them only I can fly-in in the morning and fly-out early afternoon. Knowing everything is understanding everything.

Anyhow I go to the Embassy this morning and ask them for an explanation so I know to-day which will not say that my problem has been solved when they stick to their 5 weeks.