Doi Suthep disappears in haze pollution

[saengd]

1 hour ago, cmsally said:

Nothing will happen on a regional basis  because it is not whole countries enveloped in smog.  Bangkok/S Thailand/large parts of Laos including Vientiane/S Myanmar are all largely unaffected. So they don't give a ------ what happens to large parts of their countries which are traditionally agricultural and poorer. This is why a regional solution relying on national governments will not work.

These monopolistic governments (as well as the Chinese govt) couldn't care a less if these areas become the trash dumps of Asia.

Respectfully, have you looked at the firemaps, Myanmar and Laos contain far more burning sites than does Thailand, Northern Myanmar and all of Laos are one big fire? I simply cannot believe those countries are not affected by the pollution to the same or a greater extent than is Thailand, anyone looking at the firemaps objectively would regard Thailand as being the least of the regions worries. I'll reinforce yet again that Thailand should lead the way and do something but the lasting solution is a regional issue, an ASEAN issue and anything Thailand does alone will not be effective.

 

https://firms.modaps.eosdis.nasa.gov/map/#z:6;c:102.6,17.7;d:2020-03-13..2020-03-14;l:countries,firms_noaa20-viirs,firms_viirs,firms_modis_a,firms_modis_t

[cmsally]

There is already an agreement on Transboundary haze pollution (ASEAN), which seems to have failed.

https://www.greenpeace.org/southeastasia/press/3239/a-haze-free-asean-by-2020-are-we-there-yet/

 

If you have governments that benefit from a part of their country being handed over to corporate monoculture  and poverty, then of course they will not be screaming "Help" to Asean. This is precisely the problem, the benefits outweigh the problems for those in charge. You have to have a government that wants to stop the smoke. If you transported every single one of those in charge up to the worst of the affected areas and made them live with no AC / closing windows in the middle of the smoky season, I guarantee the air would improve overnight.

[saengd]

It doesn't appear as though Thailand would have a problem lodging a very large complaint, the problem appears to be Shah State, not so much Thailand:

 

From your link:

 

• Between December 2018 to May 2019, there were a total of 6,879 fire hotspots within maize plantations of Upper Northern Thailand.
• Between December 2018 to May 2019, there were a total of 14,828 fire hotspots within maize plantations of Shan State of Myanmar

From this research, the area of maize plantations in Shan State of Myanmar has increased alarmingly within only six months (from 400,660 hactares or 4,006.6 square kilometers in December 2018 to 1,206,933 hactares or 12,069.33 square kilometer in May 2019). However, there is no publicly available information on who occupies/uses the land, and specifically how land or forest fires originate.

 

 

 

[cmsally]

Shan state is essentially tied into Thailand.

https://www.iss.nl/sites/corporate/files/CMCP_35-_Woods.pdf

 

http://www.mekonglandforum.org/node/2163

[saengd]

6 minutes ago, cmsally said:

Shan state is essentially tied into Thailand.

https://www.iss.nl/sites/corporate/files/CMCP_35-_Woods.pdf

 

http://www.mekonglandforum.org/node/2163

Ahhhhhh, right then! Sound of coin dropping.

 

EDIT TO ADD: Interesting that, despite the existence of your second link,  Greenpeace says, " However, there is no publicly available information on who occupies/uses the land, and specifically how land or forest fires originate".

[saengd]

I don't have an answer for that one, it's a clever business set up that leaves all parties looking clean as a whistle, the only people who suffer are Thai residents who can genuinely point across the border as being the cause of the problem, even gov.th is clean.

[cmsally]

That is the whole idea, in that lack of regulations and education mean it is very difficult to trace who is creating the problem.

It is very convenient to have neighbouring countries with a large percentage of subsistence farmers, lack of education and high level of corruption.

Thais look clean because you point at Burma and Burmese don't care because its Shan State and I suppose just there for their use as a money making trash can.

The same of course would go for Laos.

 

[saengd]

I don't know what the solution is to this problem but I do know that one of the steps must be to raise awareness. I'd previously heard the odd story about Laos being used as a proxy for Chinese maize but this is the first time in almost twenty years that I've been able to join up the dots, so thank you for posting those links.

 

It seems clear to me that instead of farangs bleating about Somchai in Thailand burning his crops they need to be complaining about a different and much bigger problem, Shan State and Laos and that conglomerate that shall not be named. That is not to say there isn't a Thai problem inside Thai borders but from a burning perspective it's a much much smaller problem than the first one....I suspect very very few people understand that. 

 

I highly recommend people read those links.

[saengd]

12 hours ago, cmsally said:

That is the whole idea, in that lack of regulations and education mean it is very difficult to trace who is creating the problem.

It is very convenient to have neighbouring countries with a large percentage of subsistence farmers, lack of education and high level of corruption.

Thais look clean because you point at Burma and Burmese don't care because its Shan State and I suppose just there for their use as a money making trash can.

The same of course would go for Laos.

 

Coming back to the original point for a moment which is whether the majority of the pollution problem originates inside Thailand or beyond its borders: the Greenpeace report makes it clear that last year there was twice the number of hotspots in Shan State (SS) than there was in northern Thailand and that the growing area was at least twice as large. Anecdotally, the pollution problem seems to have worsened over the past five years which seems to be reflected in the increase of growing area in SS. I've not seen any reference to the number of fires or growing area in Laos but in just looking at the volume of hotspots on the NASA firemaps I estimate there are twice as many if not more. Those things suggest Thailand is surrounded by near neighbors where the volume of fires is between four and six times that of Thailand, do you agree?

 

Offshore winds from the East and West coasts of Vietnam and Myanmar mean that air currents converge in Thailand which is right in the middle of the landmass, it seems inescapable that Thailand suffers as a result, windmaps seem to confirm this is the case with the greater impact coming from the East.

 

I has always thought that blown in pollution was a lesser problem when compared to home grown pollution, I am now convinced the homegrown variety is dwarfed by what's happening in neighboring countries, possibly even as much as 70/30 but that's just a guess. 

 

The fact that Thai business might be responsible for at least part of the problem makes a solution difficult to imagine. There will be almost no chance the people of Laos or Myanmar will want to force change which leaves the onus for it on the Thai population and ASEAN as a whole. ASEAN seems likely to be impotent in this case and the Thai population hamstrung by a government that is not fully democratic and is at least partially corrupt. Perhaps climate change and drought offer a partial solution although the Chinese annexation of the Mekong seems to have covered that base.

 

I don't know, I'd be interested to hear what anyone else thinks the solution is to that problem, it seems clear however that complaining about Thai farmers home grown burning is not part of the bigger problem, or the solution.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Thailand]

Visibility very low today, many drivers have lights on.

My Accuweather phone app says it is Fog! ????

[Forza2002]

More than a dozen fires alight in the foothills surrounding Chiang Mai...https://www.airvisual.com/air-quality-map?lat=18.7446293&lng=99.0861594&zoomLevel=15

[Lacessit]

Oh please, those on thread bleating about Shan State and Laos just don't get it. Doi Suthep is on fire NOW. It's local action.

There is a fairly simple solution to the air pollution problem. Fine and jail the poo yais in any villages where the fires occur. Confiscate private property of any landowner burning off. Without compensation.

It wouldn't take long for the message to sink in.

Not that it's ever going to happen.

[saengd]

7 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Oh please, those on thread bleating about Shan State and Laos just don't get it. Doi Suthep is on fire NOW. It's local action.

There is a fairly simple solution to the air pollution problem. Fine and jail the poo yais in any villages where the fires occur. Confiscate private property of any landowner burning off. Without compensation.

It wouldn't take long for the message to sink in.

Not that it's ever going to happen.

What I get is that yet again TVF posters demonstrate their need for easy simple answers and most often don't look beyond the end of their nose, let alone read reports or studies, even when they do contain pretty pictures and easy to read graphs! Here, tell me what you think I don't get:

 

"I have always thought that blown in pollution was a lesser problem when compared to home grown pollution, I am now convinced the homegrown variety is dwarfed by what's happening in neighboring countries, possibly even as much as 70/30 but that's just a guess". 

[Lacessit]

2 minutes ago, saengd said:

What I get is that yet again TVF posters demonstrate their need for easy simple answers and most often don't look beyond the end of their nose, let alone read reports or studies, even when they do contain pretty pictures and easy to read graphs!

Ok, let's hear your better answer. Please, no BS about education. The Thai education system is dedicated to dumbing down the populace.

[saengd]

3 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Ok, let's hear your better answer. Please, no BS about education. The Thai education system is dedicated to dumbing down the populace.

You could try reading post number 40, OR, you could read the Greenpeace report that Sally posted earlier, OR, you could just look at the graphs I extracted and posted from it above, OR, you could just read the following. But if you want your very own personalized "better answer" described just for you, you're going to be SOL!

 

"I has always thought that blown in pollution was a lesser problem when compared to home grown pollution, I am now convinced the homegrown variety is dwarfed by what's happening in neighboring countries, possibly even as much as 70/30 but that's just a guess". 

[Lacessit]

4 minutes ago, saengd said:

You could try reading post number 40, OR, you could read the Greenpeace report that Sally posted earlier, OR, you could just look at the graphs I extracted and posted from it above, OR, you could just read the following. But if you want your very own personalized "better answer" described just for you, you're going to be SOL!

 

"I has always thought that blown in pollution was a lesser problem when compared to home grown pollution, I am now convinced the homegrown variety is dwarfed by what's happening in neighboring countries, possibly even as much as 70/30 but that's just a guess". 

Of course I'm SOL, because you don't have anything better, just unscientific guesses which are irrelevant to any solution. Thanks for stopping by.

[saengd]

1 minute ago, Lacessit said:

Of course I'm SOL, because you don't have anything better, just unscientific guesses which are irrelevant to any solution. Thanks for stopping by.

I think the Greenpeace report is pretty compelling, twice the number of hotspots. And the NASA firemaps are also pretty compelling, you should try looking at both and seeing just how unscientific those things are...NASA Firemaps unscientific, too funny.

[orchis]

On 3/14/2020 at 10:54 AM, klauskunkel said:

I think TAT should organize a marathon there to combat the tarnished image!

https://www.chiangmaimarathon.com

The 14 th Chiang Mai marathon will be ran Dec 20 2020, sponsored by TAT
"Medical partners" are Bangkok Hospital and Ram Hospital. 

[Lacessit]

3 hours ago, saengd said:

I think the Greenpeace report is pretty compelling, twice the number of hotspots. And the NASA firemaps are also pretty compelling, you should try looking at both and seeing just how unscientific those things are...NASA Firemaps unscientific, too funny.

You sound to me like the classic bureaucrat that delights in complexity, because it provides a good living.

Perhaps you have not heard the story of Alexander the Great, who solved the problem of the Gordian Knot by cutting it with his sword. Nowadays, I believe it's called thinking outside the square.

Go to Malaysia. In two weeks there, I didn't see a single fire. No trucks, buses, pickups or cars belching smoke. You think that's achieved by changing the culture? I'll bet there are some fairly stiff penalties.

Blathering about where the smoke is in the various nations is not solving the problem. I daresay I've solved more problems during my professional life than you ever have, so calling me simplistic illustrates your own lack of understanding.

[saengd]

26 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You sound to me like the classic bureaucrat that delights in complexity, because it provides a good living.

Perhaps you have not heard the story of Alexander the Great, who solved the problem of the Gordian Knot by cutting it with his sword. Nowadays, I believe it's called thinking outside the square.

Go to Malaysia. In two weeks there, I didn't see a single fire. No trucks, buses, pickups or cars belching smoke. You think that's achieved by changing the culture? I'll bet there are some fairly stiff penalties.

Blathering about where the smoke is in the various nations is not solving the problem. I daresay I've solved more problems during my professional life than you ever have, so calling me simplistic illustrates your own lack of understanding.

It's classic that you're attacking the poster rather than attacking (or even commenting on) the reports and studies which form the basis of the posters comments! That suggests you have no interest in discovery or any argument apart from what is at the end of your nose, the same one you have always owned. That's all too bad, the Greenpeace report is revealing and the accompanying study fascinating, the structure of ownership and trade the author uncovered was insightful.

 

And I make to hint about changing the culture or the need for education, I I have no interest and make no recommendation about those things. At this stage in the proceedings I'm solely interested in establishing cause and that's been 100% of what I've written about, actually, it seems as though you've not understood much of what has been said and have assumed what the arguments might be, may I suggest you go back and re-read.  

[saengd]

OK look, all I've done is read two reports that were posted, said they were very good and recommended posters read them, if that's too difficult or posters don't want to, don't, it's your choice. But don't go attacking me just because you're too lazy or don't want to read the reports, it only confuses my stalker further!

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, saengd said:

It's classic that you're attacking the poster rather than attacking (or even commenting on) the reports and studies which form the basis of the posters comments! That suggests you have no interest in discovery or any argument apart from what is at the end of your nose, the same one you have always owned. That's all too bad, the Greenpeace report is revealing and the accompanying study fascinating, the structure of ownership and trade the author uncovered was insightful.

 

And I make to hint about changing the culture or the need for education, I I have no interest and make no recommendation about those things. At this stage in the proceedings I'm solely interested in establishing cause and that's been 100% of what I've written about, actually, it seems as though you've not understood much of what has been said and have assumed what the arguments might be, may I suggest you go back and re-read.  

It's not hard to understand the two causes of LOCAL air pollution in Chiang Mai are burning off, and vehicular emissions. It's a matter of using eyes on the ground. You think Chiang Mai is somehow a magnet for the smoke from Shan State and Laos?

 I am attacking thinking which addresses causes without providing solutions. That's lazy and facile. Bear in mind your first response was to say my solution was simplistic. Cet animal est tres mechant, qu'on l'attaque il se defend. In other words, you started down the ad hominem path.

I can agree to disagree with you quite comfortably.

[saengd]

6 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

It's not hard to understand the two causes of LOCAL air pollution in Chiang Mai are burning off, and vehicular emissions. It's a matter of using eyes on the ground. You think Chiang Mai is somehow a magnet for the smoke from Shan State and Laos?

 I am attacking thinking which addresses causes without providing solutions. That's lazy and facile. Bear in mind your first response was to say my solution was simplistic. Cet animal est tres mechant, qu'on l'attaque il se defend. In other words, you started down the ad hominem path.

I can agree to disagree with you quite comfortably.

Chiang Mai Province...and Chiang Rai Province and all of Northern Thailand, not just Chinag Mai City.

 

And if the nearby fires in the North were extinguished and it was then found that hadn't solved the problem (which it probably wouldn't) what then...wasted money, wasted effort, disillusionment and lots of resistence to any proposed next steps.

 

You understand (or perhaps you don't because you haven't bothered to read those documents) that the burning in Laos and Shan State is six times the extent of burning in Northern Thailand. You also (don't) understand that what is being burned is crops that are effectively owned by a Thai conglomerate who is a Chinese proxy. So Thailand's government is not in that cross border pollution picture, they are free and clear of responsibility for it and because the conglomerate is who and what it is, there will be no internal challenge from Thai.gov to change things....that's why no solution is offered to the problem, because it's very complex and nobody can immediately think of one. Local burning and car exhaust is not the major problem, you think it is because that's what you see and you feel and have always believed, you have never needed to look for secondary causes and certainly not for new primary causes. You and your thinking are part of the problem.

 

And the language of the forum is English, nobody is impressed with people posting phrases in exotic languages.

[Yom]

Yesterday there has been a great conversation mainly between

saengd

and  

cmsally

 

Thank you both for your thoughts (and for the links too).

  

[cmsally]

Some posts have been removed as they are more about the actual posters than the subject!

[saengd]

Thinking about the Laos and SS problem overnight made me realize how difficult the pollution problem has now become. Even if CP Group was removed completely from the equation, at some future point, it seem hugely unlikely the current farming practices would change because the current means of earning income among small land owners in SS and Laos will already be firmly entrenched. It also seems improbable that mechanization will help since large numbers of small farms are involved, the terrain and infrastructure will not be suitable and it's unlikely there will be government subsidies.

 

It would be similar to trying to remove environment polluting red cars from the Chiang Mai public transportation scene, almost an impossibility in less than several decades. And since the end supply of product is sold to China it's unlikely demand will slow, if anything it's likely to increase and the pollution problem become worse. A more profitable alternate crop that doesn't require burning might be an answer although I'm certain that maize planting has already replaced opium in many areas.

[Thailand]

Said it before but worth saying again.

 

Lived in a country where burning was a way of life. It was stopped almost overnight by simply imposing massive fines on the landowners. They soon ensured that it did not continue. 

Hit them where it hurts, in the pocket.

 

The problem here, most of the land here is govt/elite owned so unlikely they would make a law that would affect themselves.

 

The answer,each year,complain for a few months,slowly poison the population and then the rains will come and it will be forgotten again, until the next year!

[saengd]

And when the burning is beyond your borders?

[Thailand]

1 hour ago, saengd said:

And when the burning is beyond your borders?

Cleaning up your own backyard first comes to mind but I'm not holding my breath. ( smog and all).

[Trujillo]

"They need to stop propagating information that there is a safe limit .. The only safe limit is zero particulate pollution ..."

 

In space, no one can hear you breathe.