Jitters

[OlRedEyes]

Retirement to another country would suggest an at least semi-permanent relocation.

Be aware that there is no such state in Thailand, and from what I can see, won't be anytime soon, if ever.

The mindset is still, we only want your money. Period. In return you can spend and shut up. Until you happen to piss someone off. There are no enforcible laws to protect you or anything you own. The justice system is a mirage. Human rights? What's that?

The rules are simple. Please the Thai, in whatever they may demand of you. If you don't, nobody will sympathize with you, not even your fellow expats. They too are too nervous to take any discernible stance.

It is a gross negligence to not point out to potential retirees that their position here will be forever subject to sudden change. And NOT necessarily due to overnight rule changes. It is no more than a day to day existence. (Always remember the old warning: Never bring to LOS what you are not willing to walk away - or be shipped away- from. ) Fine for temporary expats who will float somewhere else as the wind blows, but not a retirement destination as most people in the west would imagine retirement to be.

Remember that modern buildings, internet, and suspect smiles do not add up to respect, human rights, freedom of speech and security. This is SEA. Study it's history and culture first, and I don't mean it's dress code, music and ways to say thank you. Do you realize what it feels like to not be able to speak openly, without fear? Never to get any respect as an equal, no matter how hard you try? These are the type of silent killers that may get you in a few short years. The small things, like being free as an equal human individual, not a subjugated lower being, may suddenly start to loom large in your psyche.

Otherwise, it's fine

Edited April 10, 2007 by OlRedEyes

[Crow Boy]

I'm with Khun Marco on this one.

Why buy? EVERY horror story I have heard or read has been about someone who was so sure everything was pwerfect and his gf/wife loved him so much he had nothing to worry about. Then one day He's shafted and lost all the material things he took so much pride in owning only to find out he didn't!

To have opened this thread you have to agree you must be risk adverse so do the sensible thing and rent. No risk, everything is in your favour. Remember houses are not an investment over here!

The two worst mistakes in my life here were to buy a house/land with my then girlfriend and to go into a business with another farung

When the GF and I split - I lost all call to the house and the land - land can only be owned by a Thai citizen and the house can only be 49% owned by a farung - the legal advice was to fight, the court ruling was "you are a farung and have plenty of money. She is a poor Thai girl who is trying to take care of her family" The court awarded her the house and the court costs. She sold the place to a friend of hers who had found herself a farung boyfriend and persuaded him to buy a house. He did and she did the same to him. It happens and it happens a lot. Better bet is to rent a house and keep the money overseas where it attracts much better interest.

Having a house here sounds great and has a lot of advantages but:

1) To buy you have to be able to bring the money into the country and show where it came from. If you have the appropriate visa/work permit you can borrow money from a bank but it is more difficult and has a lot of restrictions on what you can do and how.

2) they are hard to sell so be really sure you are going to live in it until they cart you out the door in a wooden box

3) if you manage to sell it you will have a very difficult time getting the money OUT of Thailand

4) if things go wrong and be sure things do go wrong here - are you prepared to walk out and away from your home

Buying a condo is an alternative but they cost about the same as a house and yes you can buy it solely in your name but they are VERY hard to sell unless you have bought in a highly sought after building ie very expensive which normally would mean Bangkok. There are thousands of condos up for sale and many have not made any money for the seller. If you decide to buy a condo look at the location and surroundings. If it is carefully maintained it will cost more in monthly fees but hold it value.

I rent my house and despite the desire to buy another house doubt very much whether I will do it. The disadvantages are too many to make it in my opinion worth the risk especially in the current political and financial climate

CB

[Maigo6]

Do you realize what it feels like to not be able to speak openly, without fear? Never to get any respect as an equal, no matter how hard you try? These are the type of silent killers that may get you in a few short years. The small things, like being free as an equal human individual, not a subjugated lower being, may suddenly start to loom large in your psyche.

Have these things loomed large in your psyche already ?

Please Mr Red Eyes, why do you suffer so ?

[Maigo6]

The court awarded her the house and the court costs. She sold the place to a friend of hers who had found herself a farung boyfriend and persuaded him to buy a house. He did and she did the same to him. It happens and it happens a lot.

LOL.....Gotta love em.....

I also have a house in a womans name, but if I ever walk away, she is welcome to it, try living with me for 5 years and you will sympathise with her plight.

My Fortuner is paid for and in my name, so at least I can throw my clothes in the back and drive away from my ( her ) house with some dignity.

Then again, I'm quite sure I'm still ok in the house for a few years, young sister has to finish University, so I have to pay for that yet. Then........who knows.......

It's only money folks!!

[Guest RealEstateBroker]

The court awarded her the house and the court costs. She sold the place to a friend of hers who had found herself a farung boyfriend and persuaded him to buy a house. He did and she did the same to him. It happens and it happens a lot.

LOL.....Gotta love em.....

I also have a house in a womans name, but if I ever walk away, she is welcome to it, try living with me for 5 years and you will sympathise with her plight.

My Fortuner is paid for and in my name, so at least I can throw my clothes in the back and drive away from my ( her ) house with some dignity.

Then again, I'm quite sure I'm still ok in the house for a few years, young sister has to finish University, so I have to pay for that yet. Then........who knows.......

It's only money folks!!

Maigo6...you are my twin in life I guess. Just about the exact situation.

It really is only money. I am a total as_hole and she has stayed with me for over five years, of course

she does have a new house. She earned it. No Fortuner, only a Yaris.

[OlRedEyes]

Do you realize what it feels like to not be able to speak openly, without fear? Never to get any respect as an equal, no matter how hard you try? These are the type of silent killers that may get you in a few short years. The small things, like being free as an equal human individual, not a subjugated lower being, may suddenly start to loom large in your psyche.

Have these things loomed large in your psyche already ?

Please Mr Red Eyes, why do you suffer so ?

No they don't, and I don't. Most westerners contemplating retiring here though are nothing like me. The rhetorical questions were just to start them on a direction of thought, not a reflection of my own feelings.

Next sad comment?

BTW, I never intended retiring here. I don't always just speak of things that affect just me. Do you?

Edited April 10, 2007 by OlRedEyes

[soundman]

Marco, I don't understand what your saying, people with money are buying, within the next two or three years, the property market is going to increase ten fold, right now is the time to buy........ Buy it when its cheap, cause its going up very soon, I give it eighteen months, then watch the market, you'll wish you did.

Along with triple digit inflation I suppose?? 1000% ROI in three years?

How about you qualify your statemnt by showing us a case in thai land history where there has been a ten fold increase in the price of land over a resonable large scale area (not a single shop front) in comparative terms of valuation of the currency. (subtracting the effects of inflation)

Good luck.

Soundman.

[terry57]

Rent, definetly rent if your jittery. I'm about as sure as I ever will be about living here and buying...that being said I'm getting a 30yr mortgage in my fiance's name and making minimum payments just to be on the safe side and not tie up a big chunk of $$$$ at once. You really can't go wrong in this way. If the Dollar strengthens then you only lost your down payment and some interest payments on a crap exchange and you can double payments on your principle during times of plenty. If the Baht strengthens further it will sting a lil but no more than renting would. If you have marital problems and you need to split, then your only out of the down payment and the monthly payments not the whole home and land, let her pay it off if she wants it so bad...

AND Home & Land.. not just a cramped condo, you can have your own place. I intend on buying land around the new airport and having my soon to be Father-in-Law Design an all wood large Thai Style Home, elevated off the ground with decorative serene landscaping flaunting old school classic Thai looks and modern amenities.... Its what keeps me going working months at a time in Iraq.

i think you've got a fair'ly good plan happening there my friend.

i like the way you have faced the possibility of a marrage breakup and the possible loss of everything strait from the get go.

if you make mimimum payments then its the same as paying rent as you say, and its never going to be yours anyway.

so who gives a toss as thats thai law and no one can change that fact.

i think you are in for a very good future as you have faced the reality of marrying a thai national and also the property issue in a very intelligent way.

if more farang had the brains and common sense that you have, this forum would be void of all the negativity that is thrown up about these two very important issue's.

respect to you my friend and be bloody careful in iraq will you.

the very good reverend,

terence of rambuttri.

[Maigo6]

Most westerners contemplating retiring here though are nothing like me.

Next sad comment?

Praise the Lord..............

Edited April 10, 2007 by Maigo6

[Maigo6]

. I am a total as_hole

Hey !

I resemble that remark..............

[terry57]

Don't get me wrong, I am normally a positive guy but constantly get the jitters when considering retiring to Thailand.

Should be the perfect life,apart from the B---dy! 90 visits to Imm.

I am aware now of many properties that can't sell and are open to big discounts.

Many people seem to be fed up with rules that appear to change on a weekly basis and want out.

Does the Thai Gov. want us or not?

I have two other friends in th UK, both prof.who are also worried about investing in Thailand.

Worried that if after they take the 'plunge' Rules change an wind up like many others there trying to get out and recoup some losses.

Any comments?

here's the good oil pepi, and bloody listen up will you, as im saving you a <deleted> fortune with my top bit of inside information.

if you can afford to buy a property in thailand, well you can afford " not " to buy one.

i know that sounds confusing, but here is the logic in my statement.

the two main things people on this forum worry about is, women, plus land and property ownership.

forget about the women as thats a whole new thread, so its back to the buying property gig.

if you can afford to buy something here, that means you are financial enough to invest your hard earned money in a nice little earner in your home country at no risk to your good self.

the interest you earn on your bugs bunny will pay for the rent on a top little condo in bangkok or a nice house up country or down south.

your mind will then be free to concentrate on other very important things, like hooking up with a top looking brown skinned goddess and doing the horizontal folk dance as often as human'ly possible.

i realise that a fella cant be on the job all the time and thats your chance to throw down a few changs with your mates just to be sociable like.

this is terry's guide to true happiness and a life filled with bliss in the mighty los.

thank you very much.

please keep this info to yourself as every bleeding fella will be in on it.

[pepi1]

Well , what a response! Now I am completly filled with jitters!

Seriously, for me I am married to Thai lady and have own baby.

With house prices in the Uk going thro the roof,it makes sense to sell some now but not all and adopt new lifestyle in Thailand.

Fortunately for me,can afford to take a' knock' if money problem occurs.

Had so many women in the past, if this one tricks me well thats life! I really hope not of course.

Will rent first, see how it goes but never letting go of home and prop. investments in UK.

Hope after being in fast business here, can slow down and enjoy my daughter growing up.

[PeaceBlondie]

OlRedEyes started his post with this statement in bold: Retirement to another country would suggest at least a semi-permanent relocation. Good point. Semi-permanent could also be indefinite, far longer than 'temporary,' extending out beyond the forseeable future.

I'm here as permanently as I dare. Owning no house and no intent to own one. I am here at the will and the whim of the Thais. I have a debit card to fly out of here with only three pieces of luggage. If the highest poo-yai comes to the door and orders me out, I could be out of Thai airspace within ten hours. Nothing permanent about it at all. Nothing about this culture tells me I'm any more permanent than Anna Leonowens was.

I intend to stay here. But I'd be fooling myself to think a farang's residence in Thailand is permanent.

[Bruce1]

Why would you spend your money to buy something you can't own? Are you STUPID!

Rent. Anywhere you like. Move anytime you want. Enjoy.

Buy something back where you can actually own it. And the law protects you. And rent it out. Pay your loan and pocket the difference. Smile.

My house in Brisbane went up 50% in 3 years, according to my bank. And that's real, not fairyland.

[terry57]

Well , what a response! Now I am completly filled with jitters!

Seriously, for me I am married to Thai lady and have own baby.

With house prices in the Uk going thro the roof,it makes sense to sell some now but not all and adopt new lifestyle in Thailand.

Fortunately for me,can afford to take a' knock' if money problem occurs.

Had so many women in the past, if this one tricks me well thats life! I really hope not of course.

Will rent first, see how it goes but never letting go of home and prop. investments in UK.

Hope after being in fast business here, can slow down and enjoy my daughter growing up.

thanks pepi,

and im real happy ive helped you out my good friend.

its very nice that you have a lovely wife and i respect that very much.

thats leaves you some time to get on the turps with your friends without waisting time chasing crumpet.

considering you have a few houses in the old blighty thats even better, because you can rent them all out and rent a bleeding mansion in bangers with no risk at all to your good self.

anyway pepi,

good luck to you and if you need any other help you can P/M me.

thank you very much.

[Heng]

- Most property here does not appreciate very well.

Most RURAL property doesn't appreciate well (especially if you have a limited time frame or are financing property purchases). But even then it's only a matter of time. If you're talking property near cities I'd be interested in hearing what you have purchased in the past 10-20 years that has not appreciated well (surely it happens, as we see patches of unmoveable, unleasable land all over the place, even in developed areas).

That said, I advise my foreign friends to hold off on buying (I used to advise for them to get the condo first and only THEN consider a house). For my local friends, as usual, if there's a good deal to be had and cash is on hand, then I usually say go for it. Low taxes, no inheritance or property taxes, they aren't making any more of it, and it's permanent.

[Dakhar]

I handed over 75K USD to the bride to have a 7 town house structure built. I would not do that again! I get to watch what renters do to property that is not theirs. I get to watch a once new building fall apart. Basically I get to see money go down the tank. "FLUSH"

The rent money... well we get about 22K a month off of it. I think the break even point is approx. 10 years. The wife says the property is apreciating...... Yes, it is, all the land around here is going up in price... but no one is buying. I doubt the town houses will ever amount to anything more than ruble, which make a good filler for the next building. But hey, that is just my take on it.

Oh but if you do want to buy proprty I know where 7 town houses are, and the owner is motivated!

[soundman]

I handed over 75K USD to the bride to have a 7 town house structure built. I would not do that again! I get to watch what renters do to property that is not theirs. I get to watch a once new building fall apart. Basically I get to see money go down the tank. "FLUSH"

The rent money... well we get about 22K a month off of it. I think the break even point is approx. 10 years. The wife says the property is apreciating...... Yes, it is, all the land around here is going up in price... but no one is buying. I doubt the town houses will ever amount to anything more than ruble, which make a good filler for the next building. But hey, that is just my take on it.

Oh but if you do want to buy proprty I know where 7 town houses are, and the owner is motivated!

You bring up a very valid point.

In six years, I have seen the "price" of property nearly triple around where I live. However, in the past six years, there has been one sale of land, that went for 35% of the "market value" of the land area. (valuation's according to the land department). All speculation & BS. A big difference between what people are trying to sell for & actually realising.

Soundman.

[solent01]

Mr Soundman of course not ten fold, I was exaggerating to make a point, sorry, but I did think that was obvious

[pepi1]

Thats very interesting----no inheritance taxes!! Is this true, I will check on this.

Why give the British Government 40%. Maybe the same in other countries.

Puts a whole different light on this now!

The worst that happens is the thai wife gets the lot----good luck to her.

She, hopefully would have brought great happiness to me.

More I can say about the fast majority of western 'bedbreakers' who appear to only think about themselves! oooops!

[Nebukanezar]

Rent, definetly rent if your jittery. I'm about as sure as I ever will be about living here and buying...that being said I'm getting a 30yr mortgage in my fiance's name and making minimum payments just to be on the safe side and not tie up a big chunk of $$ at once. You really can't go wrong in this way. If the Dollar strengthens then you only lost your down payment and some interest payments on a crap exchange and you can double payments on your principle during times of plenty. If the Baht strengthens further it will sting a lil but no more than renting would. If you have marital problems and you need to split, then your only out of the down payment and the monthly payments not the whole home and land, let her pay it off if she wants it so bad...

AND Home & Land.. not just a cramped condo, you can have your own place. I intend on buying land around the new airport and having my soon to be Father-in-Law Design an all wood large Thai Style Home, elevated off the ground with decorative serene landscaping flaunting old school classic Thai looks and modern amenities.... Its what keeps me going working months at a time in Iraq.

i think you've got a fair'ly good plan happening there my friend.

i like the way you have faced the possibility of a marrage breakup and the possible loss of everything strait from the get go.

if you make mimimum payments then its the same as paying rent as you say, and its never going to be yours anyway.

so who gives a toss as thats thai law and no one can change that fact.

i think you are in for a very good future as you have faced the reality of marrying a thai national and also the property issue in a very intelligent way.

if more farang had the brains and common sense that you have, this forum would be void of all the negativity that is thrown up about these two very important issue's.

respect to you my friend and be bloody careful in iraq will you.

the very good reverend,

terence of rambuttri.

Why Thank You Very Much!

I have already been through a failed marraige once and I have seen literaly scores of guys come out here and loose it all by throwing everything they had into the hands of someone they barely know, with no self protection mechanisims in place.... sad actually...and dumb, but more sad than dumb.

Thanks again for the kind praise and yes I'll do my best to stay kicken out there despite the lil gifts they like to leave me. Thats a mortar hole about 100m from my camp in the pick Whew...i'm glad their aim has been sucky as of late

[shochu]

Dont' invest more in LOs than you can afford to lose?

I laugh whenever I read this. Why? Because this could be true of any investment that was made in haste.

If one follows the law and buys according to things allowed by law - then how does one lose their investment?

Rules constantly changing? Please - things are being made more clear because of past indiscretions.

The golden rule to property investment is buy low and sell high if your intent is to make a profit. A recent survey done by a professor on property investments in the U.S. over a couple of hundred years found that on an average property prices averaged only a less than 1% increase over this time. I believe this took into consideration the value of the property price calculated over time to include infaltion. But I'm guessing from the wording this does not include property taxes, maintenance, etc. (What does this mean. It was probably a loss overall to own. Properties are a huge hassel to maintain and require constant upkeep. In LOS where there is so much humididty, it requires much more.) Buy low and sell high during cycles. This is where people always make the money in property. And the most important rule - location, location, location - if profit is the motive.

If it is a place to live in, then it really doesn't matter. Just buy what you want and only you can calculate the price of happiness. Why do some people spend a fortune on a paniting and others see it as junk. Because they can afford to, or this is the price they have placed on their enjoyment of the work or art.

Follow others advice and just rent, but since you have a wife it may make sense to buy if you see something you like.

Again, the biggest source of fodder on this site is a result of acting on emotion - starting with marrying a thai. If you trust her, buy property, if you don't buy a condo.

Most businesses fail - something like 8/9 out of ten - anywhere.

Many people have lost their shirts because they were fuled by emotion, not business acumen.

PLEASE - lets give the - Dont' invest more in LOS more than you can you can afford to lose? - a rest. If you lost then you didn't do your homework or you were thinking with the brain between the legs. Of course this is not in every case, as there are probably people who were legitimately swindled, but alas, this can happen anywhere.

Terry offers good advice. Take it!

[Bruce1]

A year ago a big housing estate near where I live was advertising new houses for from 4 million baht and there were lots of empty houses. Now the houses are being advertised for from 1.6 million baht and there are still lots of empty houses. Says it all really, why would you want to invest your money here?

[terry57]

Thats very interesting----no inheritance taxes!! Is this true, I will check on this.

Why give the British Government 40%. Maybe the same in other countries.

Puts a whole different light on this now!

The worst that happens is the thai wife gets the lot----good luck to her.

She, hopefully would have brought great happiness to me.

More I can say about the fast majority of western 'bedbreakers' who appear to only think about themselves! oooops!

i dont think thats a fair comment pepe.

you can afford to lose a considerable amount of money and just pick up the pieces of your life and carry on, as you are very financial and good on you.

many punters cannot afford to see all there money go down the gurgler as in many cases its all they have to support themselves.

to lose it all to a bad relationship could be crippling for the said person, and if one is older it is impossible to start again.

we have heard many a story of farang that commit suicide because of the shock of loosing everything, and one must be extremely careful if one decides to invest there money in the los.

just like to point that out to you pepe.

thank you very much.

[Naam]

The golden rule to property investment is buy low and sell high if your intent is to make a profit.

= brilliant! is this golden rule copyright protected or can i make use of it without any restrictions?

[KhunMarco]

The golden rule to property investment is buy low and sell high if your intent is to make a profit.

= brilliant! is this golden rule copyright protected or can i make use of it without any restrictions?

shoot , it's always been under our nose and we didn't see it eh?, it's easy man

[Heng]

The golden rule to property investment is buy low and sell high if your intent is to make a profit. A recent survey done by a professor on property investments in the U.S. over a couple of hundred years found that on an average property prices averaged only a less than 1% increase over this time. I believe this took into consideration the value of the property price calculated over time to include infaltion. But I'm guessing from the wording this does not include property taxes, maintenance, etc. (What does this mean. It was probably a loss overall to own. Properties are a huge hassel to maintain and require constant upkeep. In LOS where there is so much humididty, it requires much more.) Buy low and sell high during cycles. This is where people always make the money in property. And the most important rule - location, location, location - if profit is the motive.

I like the CPB's philosophy (it's not "their" philosophy per se, but they are the most evident example of the buy/hold/lease gameplan that the land barons in a good number of countries live by) ... buy low and pretty much never sell. Lease it out and pass it down to the next generation. Note that I'm not referring to their development and investment divisions... talking about pure property ownership. There's virtually no maintainence involved with dirt, especially here in the LOS. Just keep your property deeds well organized.

Again, I stress it's generally not a game for foreigners, although there are a handful who have done well using the exact strategy mentioned above that is so common among locals. The big hurdle for most foreigners is making it through the first generation and having a clear cut succession for the second generation.

[pepi1]

All good comments guys.

For me at my age 62 I dont mind now where I 'hang' my hat.

Wife, like most Thai girls misses home, food ,company etc. I understand that.

I think the most surprising thing I've noticed is how us Brits keep to ourselves.

My Wife really tries to make friends at baby club for example, then other mums go back home behind four walls. I think its just our British way.

People look at our little girl, but find it difficult to say how beaut she is. In Thailand of course people just want to pick her up and talk to her.

Can't wait to adopt new lifestyle, to see my wife happy and daughter grow.

Maybe,I am getting soft in my old age.

[shochu]

Dr. Naam,

I can see you didn't understand the just of my arguement. You will need to read more into what I wrote.

Why do people spend $40, 000 on a car for the priviledge of driving it for a few years, then complain about a property that loses some value?

It is always the idiot who jumps to conclusions on reading something that is taken as common, but fails to see the larger picture!

[soundman]

The golden rule to property investment is buy low and sell high if your intent is to make a profit. A recent survey done by a professor on property investments in the U.S. over a couple of hundred years found that on an average property prices averaged only a less than 1% increase over this time. I believe this took into consideration the value of the property price calculated over time to include infaltion. But I'm guessing from the wording this does not include property taxes, maintenance, etc. (What does this mean. It was probably a loss overall to own. Properties are a huge hassel to maintain and require constant upkeep. In LOS where there is so much humididty, it requires much more.) Buy low and sell high during cycles. This is where people always make the money in property. And the most important rule - location, location, location - if profit is the motive.

I like the CPB's philosophy (it's not "their" philosophy per se, but they are the most evident example of the buy/hold/lease gameplan that the land barons in a good number of countries live by) ... buy low and pretty much never sell. Lease it out and pass it down to the next generation. Note that I'm not referring to their development and investment divisions... talking about pure property ownership. There's virtually no maintainence involved with dirt, especially here in the LOS. Just keep your property deeds well organized.

Again, I stress it's generally not a game for foreigners, although there are a handful who have done well using the exact strategy mentioned above that is so common among locals. The big hurdle for most foreigners is making it through the first generation and having a clear cut succession for the second generation.

Heng,

Could you expound on this pls.

My wife & I have bought (and been given), a fair amount of property in the last six years. All with the expectation never to sell (unless the price is right) & hand down to the generations to follow.

Any thoughts, or legal hurdles we are not aware of?

Cheers,

Soundman.