Restrictions On Foreigners' Voting Rights Relaxed

[marquess]

Your're too dumb to work it out and you never listen or learn anything do you? The main thing here is that all foreigners know, feel insecure (when it comes to investing/retiring) and thats what your Government will have to address. Its called confidence!

There could be a wrong perception on our part (which there isn't) and the result would be the same. So its the job of Governments the world over to deal consistently and responsible with these matters.

Keep the blinkers on Thaigoon, keep the blinkers on. None as blind as them that can't see.

Yeah, finally the Thai gov't is trying to enforce the law that's been established for years, and it's gonna wreck your confidence. You knew that you weren't allowed to own land in Thailand and you still went with it. Now it's the gov't's false for trying to prosecute those who have circumvented the law. Nice.

Wake up and face reality Thaigoon, with the kind of attitude that you happily display, I doubt that this country is going anywhere (economically)long term! In econimic affairs, let your yes be yes and your no be no! As to owning land here, rather you than me, investing here is like dropping a gold coin the desert sand, the more you try to retrieve it the deeper it sinks! I for one can only hope that the stupidity esculates to such a scale, that reciprocal measures are passed against Thai citizens in Western countries.

[Dakhar]

As you like it mate, as you like it! I feel much more confident about investing now.

Cambodia, heaven on earth.

As a location of investment.... it just may be. Anyone notice who the world second richest person is, and is pridicted to bump Bill Gates off his seat in a short while? It is some fellow down in.... Mexico! Mexico of all places. So my point is, if Mexico can do it, maybe Cambodia can too. Time will tell. But I doubt it will be a Cambodian rice mogul that becomes the next richest person.

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

As you like it mate, as you like it! I feel much more confident about investing now.

Cambodia, heaven on earth.

As a location of investment.... it just may be. Anyone notice who the world second richest person is, and is pridicted to bump Bill Gates off his seat in a short while? It is some fellow down in.... Mexico! Mexico of all places. So my point is, if Mexico can do it, maybe Cambodia can too. Time will tell. But I doubt it will be a Cambodian rice mogul that becomes the next richest person.

The world's second richest person is Warren Buffet. Warren Buffett, Jimmy Buffet's uncle, is from Omaha Nebraska. He is expected to bump Gates if a the future if his health holds out. He is a brilliant investor whose company Berkshire Hathaway owns Dairy Queen among other companies. hejust bought Burlington Northern Railroad. There has been a publicaly reported case several years ago of an ordinary school teacher who bought as little as $20,000 Berkshire Hathaway shares in the 1970s as part of her retirement savings who died and and left the several million dollars in profit from that investment to her university.

There is a person from Mexico self made billionaire in the top 10, Carlos Slim Helu, who is number 3.

It is interesting that in the top 10 there are 2 high school dropouts, and 2 college dropouts one of them being Bill Gates the world's richest man. There may be more with less than a university degree. Two of the top 10 did not have information on their education so it is possible they are dropouts too.

http://www.forbes.com/2007/03/07/billionai...illie_land.html

Edited April 14, 2007 by ChiangMaiAmerican

[Arkady]

Arkandy, you said "Thailand quickly lost out to cheaper labour in Indonesia, then China and Vietnam. Today Nike and Reebok's manufacturing in Thailand has been very much scaled down and could be discontinued completely without any impact to them", but apparently according to the link I posted aboove, Thailand still has five of what Reebok called "major" manufacturers versus four in Indonesia and one in Vietnam.

These Thai footwear manufacturers were highly profitable in the late 80s and early 90s the heyday of Thailand's athletic footwear exports. Look at them today. Bangkok Rubber, the largest, has been suspended on the SET for the last two years and has been under troubled debt rehabilitation for eight years. Wongpaitoon was forcibly delisted from the SET after rehabilitation failed. Innovation and the others are affiliates of Bangkok Rubber. Hardly a florishing industry on the up and up. Most of the production is now in China.

[ThaiGoon]

As a location of investment.... it just may be. Anyone notice who the world second richest person is, and is pridicted to bump Bill Gates off his seat in a short while? It is some fellow down in.... Mexico! Mexico of all places. So my point is, if Mexico can do it, maybe Cambodia can too. Time will tell. But I doubt it will be a Cambodian rice mogul that becomes the next richest person.

Yeah, what a success story down there in Mexico. No wonder why millions of Mexicans are willing to risk their lives to cross the borders to the US every year. Same thing with the influx of Cambodian beggars in Bangkok.

[Naam]

As a location of investment.... it just may be. Anyone notice who the world second richest person is, and is pridicted to bump Bill Gates off his seat in a short while? It is some fellow down in.... Mexico! Mexico of all places. So my point is, if Mexico can do it, maybe Cambodia can too. Time will tell. But I doubt it will be a Cambodian rice mogul that becomes the next richest person.

Yeah, what a success story down there in Mexico. No wonder why millions of Mexicans are willing to risk their lives to cross the borders to the US every year. Same thing with the influx of Cambodian beggars in Bangkok.

i hate to admit it... but once in a while ThaiGoon gets it right

[Dakhar]

As you like it mate, as you like it! I feel much more confident about investing now.

Cambodia, heaven on earth.

As a location of investment.... it just may be. Anyone notice who the world second richest person is, and is pridicted to bump Bill Gates off his seat in a short while? It is some fellow down in.... Mexico! Mexico of all places. So my point is, if Mexico can do it, maybe Cambodia can too. Time will tell. But I doubt it will be a Cambodian rice mogul that becomes the next richest person.

The world's second richest person is Warren Buffet. Warren Buffett, Jimmy Buffet's uncle, is from Omaha Nebraska. He is expected to bump Gates if a the future if his health holds out. He is a brilliant investor whose company Berkshire Hathaway owns Dairy Queen among other companies. hejust bought Burlington Northern Railroad. There has been a publicaly reported case several years ago of an ordinary school teacher who bought as little as $20,000 Berkshire Hathaway shares in the 1970s as part of her retirement savings who died and and left the several million dollars in profit from that investment to her university.

There is a person from Mexico self made billionaire in the top 10, Carlos Slim Helu, who is number 3.

http://www.forbes.com/2007/03/07/billionai...illie_land.html

according to the info. that I got, WB is no longer # 2, but hey when you are in the top 10 who cares?

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=07...;show_article=1

[Dakhar]

As a location of investment.... it just may be. Anyone notice who the world second richest person is, and is pridicted to bump Bill Gates off his seat in a short while? It is some fellow down in.... Mexico! Mexico of all places. So my point is, if Mexico can do it, maybe Cambodia can too. Time will tell. But I doubt it will be a Cambodian rice mogul that becomes the next richest person.

Yeah, what a success story down there in Mexico. No wonder why millions of Mexicans are willing to risk their lives to cross the borders to the US every year. Same thing with the influx of Cambodian beggars in Bangkok.

i hate to admit it... but once in a while ThaiGoon gets it right

Yep Thaigoon is.... a lot of things. But if Thailand wants to sit back and rest on its laurels and reflect on its great rice achievements while the rest of the world passes on by.... well so be it. I can think of another country that has done the same thing. But it perch sits a lot higher, so the fall will be much greater.

[Dupont]

As a location of investment.... it just may be. Anyone notice who the world second richest person is, and is pridicted to bump Bill Gates off his seat in a short while? It is some fellow down in.... Mexico! Mexico of all places. So my point is, if Mexico can do it, maybe Cambodia can too. Time will tell. But I doubt it will be a Cambodian rice mogul that becomes the next richest person.

Yeah, what a success story down there in Mexico. No wonder why millions of Mexicans are willing to risk their lives to cross the borders to the US every year. Same thing with the influx of Cambodian beggars in Bangkok.

Don't be so smug and condescending, the trend could be in the other direction in another 15-20 years. Love to see you with a "Famous Thaigoon, spare a dime sir?" placard outside the Central Festival Skytrain Station in Phnom Penn in 15 years time!!

Remember, all your competitors in the region were at war internally, with the US, Britain or France for the past 50 years!! Or under a communist regime. Wasn't hard to outpace Cambodia, Vietnam, China, Korea, Malaysia, Laos back then was it!! And where was Singapore 50 years ago? Wasn't hard to be a more desirable Tourist Destination either.

Also, in the development of a Country, you move into service industries after mass manufacture, and for that you need an educated "English Speaking" workforce. Thats why all the call centres and outsourcing work goes to India instead of Thailand. You need foreign companies to come over here, invest, equip the workforce with skills and knowledge. THEN.... You can think about competing and being the hub of this, that and the other.

Edited April 14, 2007 by Dupont

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

As you like it mate, as you like it! I feel much more confident about investing now.

Cambodia, heaven on earth.

As a location of investment.... it just may be. Anyone notice who the world second richest person is, and is pridicted to bump Bill Gates off his seat in a short while? It is some fellow down in.... Mexico! Mexico of all places. So my point is, if Mexico can do it, maybe Cambodia can too. Time will tell. But I doubt it will be a Cambodian rice mogul that becomes the next richest person.

The world's second richest person is Warren Buffet. Warren Buffett, Jimmy Buffet's uncle, is from Omaha Nebraska. He is expected to bump Gates if a the future if his health holds out. He is a brilliant investor whose company Berkshire Hathaway owns Dairy Queen among other companies. hejust bought Burlington Northern Railroad. There has been a publicaly reported case several years ago of an ordinary school teacher who bought as little as $20,000 Berkshire Hathaway shares in the 1970s as part of her retirement savings who died and and left the several million dollars in profit from that investment to her university.

There is a person from Mexico self made billionaire in the top 10, Carlos Slim Helu, who is number 3.

http://www.forbes.com/2007/03/07/billionai...illie_land.html

according to the info. that I got, WB is no longer # 2, but hey when you are in the top 10 who cares?

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=07...;show_article=1

Your information is more current than mine. He and Buffett were always close. Like you said when you are in the top 10 who cares. I still think Buffett with his diversified holdings stands a better long term chance of making it to number one but that is just my opinion.

[ThaiGoon]

Don't be so smug and condescending, the trend could be in the other direction in another 15-20 years. Love to see you with a "Famous Thaigoon, spare a dime sir?" placard outside the Central Festival Skytrain Station in Phnom Penn in 15 years time!!

If that somehow ever happens, I'll blame it on the education I'm receiving in the US.

Edited April 14, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[Arkady]

The problem with Thai education, Thaigoon, is that it is a reflection of Thailand's elitist society. Educational opportunities for the majority of Thai citizens are extremely limited due to low education budgets, notorioius corruption in the Education Ministry and the refusal to move away from old fashioned teaching methods like rote learning. Asian countries like Singapore, Korea and Taiwan have seriously prioritised resources for education for 30 years or more and the results are obvious. Rich kids coming home with MBAs from overseas don't help much when the general educational level of the labour force remains poor. China has a different educational structure due to the egalitarian basis of its political system (whatever else we may think about it). This means that bright, ordinary people have access to good educational opportunities at schools and state universities around the country. Thailand's state universities are disproportionately filled with kids from middle and upper class backgrounds and poor kids cannot afford to attend private universities. I was involved with an IT business that moved to China after operating in India and Thailand. They were amazed at the quality of new graduate applicants in China compared to Thailand and India which is also an elitist society, as embodied in the caste system. They could find as many bright computer science graduates as they needed, many from humble backgrounds and most could speak and write quite good English. In Thailand they had to abandon the business because the quality and English skills of computer science graduates was too poor for them to operate a competitive business. In India salaries have gone up too much because the supply of under caste graduates is now too small and lower castes don't get educated. In fact Infosys, Satyam, Wipro etc have all now started operations in China for this reason.

[Arkady]

The problem with Thai education, Thaigoon, is that it is a reflection of Thailand's elitist society. Educational opportunities for the majority of Thai citizens are extremely limited due to low education budgets, notorioius corruption in the Education Ministry and the refusal to move away from old fashioned teaching methods like rote learning. Asian countries like Singapore, Korea and Taiwan have seriously prioritised resources for education for 30 years or more and the results are obvious. Rich kids coming home with MBAs from overseas don't help much when the general educational level of the labour force remains poor. China has a different educational structure due to the egalitarian basis of its political system (whatever else we may think about it). This means that bright, ordinary people have access to good educational opportunities at schools and state universities around the country. Thailand's state universities are disproportionately filled with kids from middle and upper class backgrounds and poor kids cannot afford to attend private universities. I was involved with an IT business that moved to China after operating in India and Thailand. They were amazed at the quality of new graduate applicants in China compared to Thailand and India which is also an elitist society, as embodied in the caste system. They could find as many bright computer science graduates as they needed, many from humble backgrounds and most could speak and write quite good English. In Thailand they had to abandon the business because the quality and English skills of computer science graduates was too poor for them to operate a competitive business. In India salaries have gone up too much because the supply of under caste graduates is now too small and lower castes don't get educated. In fact Infosys, Satyam, Wipro etc have all now started operations in China for this reason.

Sorry should read "supply of upper caste students is now too small"

[Arkady]

Anyway perhaps we should get back to the thread topic. Could Thaigoon and Highdiver please explain what benefit accrues to the Thai economy and Thai people from prohibiting investment by foreigners in sectors other than those that are generally agreed to be strategic sectors? The Commerce Minister has so far only condescended to explain that "there is a sense of nationalism". Other government related figures have claimed that they have to amend the law because of Kularb Kaew which we all know will get off scot free due to its high level connections and the untouchable nature of the nominees involved. How will this sense of nationalism, felt so strongly by these wealthy Thais and yourselves, translate in terms of improving quality of life including education, healthcare etc for the majority of Thai people, not just your rich friends. Or is nationalism a luxury that only the wealthy can afford?

[Dakhar]

Well said....

[highdiver]

Anyway perhaps we should get back to the thread topic. Could Thaigoon and Highdiver please explain what benefit accrues to the Thai economy and Thai people from prohibiting investment by foreigners in sectors other than those that are generally agreed to be strategic sectors? The Commerce Minister has so far only condescended to explain that "there is a sense of nationalism". Other government related figures have claimed that they have to amend the law because of Kularb Kaew which we all know will get off scot free due to its high level connections and the untouchable nature of the nominees involved. How will this sense of nationalism, felt so strongly by these wealthy Thais and yourselves, translate in terms of improving quality of life including education, healthcare etc for the majority of Thai people, not just your rich friends. Or is nationalism a luxury that only the wealthy can afford?

Thank you for getting the thread back on track. I can only speak for myslef and addres the issue of this forum from my own perspective.

First I am shocked by the attitude of some of the members and how they view thailand and its people. it seems the colonialist era never ended. Where do some mebers get the nerve of coming here with this patronising attiude.

we are to be greatfull for the all mighty Westerners who come here and advise us what is "best for thailand" and how the thai culture is not realy up to the standards and most of those good old perspectives have only one reason, to serves the personal intrest of those giving the advise.

Its a very common form of beahvior to "generalise a problem to serves one intrests.

When someone is hurt by a decision or action he then generelises the problem as in principle it creates public realations to the issue when in fact the intrest are a personal problem.

Those in America protesting that the closing down of a mottor factory are calling it a disaster to the economy and a begining of the end of the American way of life.

what realy bothers them is that they will not be able to pay rent or have food. they dont realy care about America they care about the personal problem...but it sounds better when you make it "Everyones" problem.

my Son when gets bullied by elder children comes home and says "its not Fair that older kids use force on smaller kids" ....that does not bother him when he does it to younger ones.

I feel that most of the posts here are using a similler form of presentation and I can not avoid the feeling that the ones writing them have so much to loose. they will never admit to the true facts and wrap the argument in "academical"views ... so instead of presenting the personal loss they dispute that "all thailand" will loose.

Most detailed advices have been given on this forum including graphs statistics that support the view that Thailand is going down and that all the Thai are heading for disaster... then why are BOI offices packed with requests for investmants?? why is so much cash flowing into Thailand??? why do so may forigners wish to retire in thailand??

may forigners have came here and made a lot of money. some of them did not pay taxes and went back home with all the money tand the Thai people did not benfit at all. many forigners have invested heavily in buying land in Tailand overiding many laws. they then developed those properties once again ileagly and now when no one wants to buy those properties and they stand to loose they are calling it as "major problem for thailand".

is it realy a major problem for thailand or for them personally as they are the one who will loose.

none wil admit that they knew they were trying to make hips of money by bypassing the law. and now that the law is very clear they sit down and moan about it.

I belive in the law. Thailand is a free country and its laws need to be respected. Thailand has set laws to avoid Thais loosing jobs or look after Thai inersets. the Thai govermant objectives are to improve thai economy and not those of forign investors who override the laws.. Thailand needs forign know how and forign investment capital. but it is up to Thailand to decide where this investment is needed and serves Thai goals..

most investors are looking to make a high profit.. in many cases in services and manufacturing they do it through lowering labour costs. Western investors used Thailand and malasia as low paid labour hubs and when they got to expensive they shifted to Vietnam and cambodia. Those countries are now better then thialand as they offer cheaper labour.

The only reason the call centers are set up in india are because the labour costs in india are very cheap compared with the west.

So the argument of comparing thailand with those countries is not valid as they too will one day become expensive and then the investors will move to africa.

if you wish to invest in Thailand do so where your investment is needed by thailand and not by your own intrest that may hurt Thais. A forigner buying land ileagaly to sell it ileagally to other forigners who will rent or sell to other forigners is assiting only his personal bank account. the forign capitasl is going in and out form forigners to forigners and thais do not benefit as its making real estate more expensive for thais.

A forigner using nominees is seting up a company to open a buisness that is intended to serve forigners is forcing by the power of his capital a thai out of buisness.

Thailand want to improve education and as such are offering huge benefits to forign investment in educational facilities and high tech parks. some of the benefits include 100% ownership of the land.

The Thailand govermant has every right to decide what industries are to be considered as national intrest and i think that was what the commerce minister was trying to explain. thailand has the right to decide which sectors shhould remain in Thai hands so that Thailand will not be bought out by forigners or have forigners controlling "national assets". the nominee situation is a danger as the true controlling forces are handed to forigners and in many cases its contridicts national asstes and even security. by the way most countries do the same. do you think a rich Thai investor will be able to own the french Aircrat industries. do you think a Thai will be able to own advanced weapons sytems facility in the USA and would The UK allow Thai to own a nuclear power plant???

those countirs have laws to protect what they define as national assets ... so does the Thai govermant.

If you take the time to go through the BOI web site you will see that the bigest benefits are given to rural areas and improvement in qulity of life to the poorer areas. That where Thailanbd needs the investmants. it is not needed or priorotised to invest in the centre of bangkok Samui or Phuket.

Thailand want to improve education and as such are offering huge benefits to forign investment in educational facilities and high tech parks. some of the benefits include 100% ownership of the land.

have a look at the BOI list of promotions and see for yourself where Thailand is in need of investment. if it suits you come in and invest.

[KhunMarco]

Can someone explain me the purpose of quoting an entire post without adding anything? (see post above) I 've seen a lot of them lately

[Pattaya_Fox]

Attempted post deleted.

[LaoPo]

The only reason the call centers are set up in india are because the labour costs in india are very cheap compared with the west.

It was not the "only reason". The main reason was English skills, which are hard to find -in larger number of people- elsewhere in Asia.

LaoPo

[Arkady]

The Thailand govermant has every right to decide what industries are to be considered as national intrest and i think that was what the commerce minister was trying to explain. thailand has the right to decide which sectors shhould remain in Thai hands so that Thailand will not be bought out by forigners or have forigners controlling "national assets". the nominee situation is a danger as the true controlling forces are handed to forigners and in many cases its contridicts national asstes and even security. by the way most countries do the same. do you think a rich Thai investor will be able to own the french Aircrat industries. do you think a Thai will be able to own advanced weapons sytems facility in the USA and would The UK allow Thai to own a nuclear power plant???

those countirs have laws to protect what they define as national assets ... so does the Thai govermant.

Most people here agree that Thailand should continue protecting what are regarded as strategic sectors in the same way as other countries do. We don't want to own controlling stakes in nuclear power plants or weapons factories, or mobile phone companies, sattelites, TV stations or airlines for that matter. You haven't explained how it will benefit the Thai economy to prohibit foreign investment in the entire service sector as in Annex 3 of the FBA. Annex 3 was originally intended in the original 1972 revolutionary decree to protect service industries (all of them) in which Thais are not yet ready to compete. The 1999 FBA repeated the same wording. After 35 years it seems that the government thinks that Thais are still not able to compete in the service sector. How many more years do they need and what will be the key criteria to indicate that they are ready?

Also how enthusiastic would you be to invest in a business in which you provide all the expertise, brand name and customer networks, if you were not allowed to have management control of your own business? I noted that a delegation of Thai businessman recently returned from Vietnam ecstatic about the fact that Thai investors could own 100% of their own businesses in the service sector there and urged other Thais to go and look at the opportunities. I doubt that they would invest overseas at all under the conditions of the amended FBA which is effectively a prohibition on foreign investment in services. Think back to Thaksin's farcical attempt to buy Liverpool FC. I don't remember any one in the UK objecting at all to the fact that he was a Thai or even that he was a foreigner. The complaints were mainly that he was unsuitable because he was having impressive quantities of his own people murdered at the time. Otherwise he would have been welcome to buy a non-strategic national asset.

[Dupont]

Anyway perhaps we should get back to the thread topic. Could Thaigoon and Highdiver please explain what benefit accrues to the Thai economy and Thai people from prohibiting investment by foreigners in sectors other than those that are generally agreed to be strategic sectors? The Commerce Minister has so far only condescended to explain that "there is a sense of nationalism". Other government related figures have claimed that they have to amend the law because of Kularb Kaew which we all know will get off scot free due to its high level connections and the untouchable nature of the nominees involved. How will this sense of nationalism, felt so strongly by these wealthy Thais and yourselves, translate in terms of improving quality of life including education, healthcare etc for the majority of Thai people, not just your rich friends. Or is nationalism a luxury that only the wealthy can afford?

Thank you for getting the thread back on track. I can only speak for myslef and addres the issue of this forum from my own perspective.

First I am shocked by the attitude of some of the members and how they view thailand and its people. it seems the colonialist era never ended. Where do some mebers get the nerve of coming here with this patronising attiude.

we are to be greatfull for the all mighty Westerners who come here and advise us what is "best for thailand" and how the thai culture is not realy up to the standards and most of those good old perspectives have only one reason, to serves the personal intrest of those giving the advise.

Heads down no nonsence xenophobic cant for starters.

Its a very common form of beahvior to "generalise a problem to serves one intrests.

When someone is hurt by a decision or action he then generelises the problem as in principle it creates public realations to the issue when in fact the intrest are a personal problem.

Those in America protesting that the closing down of a mottor factory are calling it a disaster to the economy and a begining of the end of the American way of life.

what realy bothers them is that they will not be able to pay rent or have food. they dont realy care about America they care about the personal problem...but it sounds better when you make it "Everyones" problem.

my Son when gets bullied by elder children comes home and says "its not Fair that older kids use force on smaller kids" ....that does not bother him when he does it to younger ones.

I feel that most of the posts here are using a similler form of presentation and I can not avoid the feeling that the ones writing them have so much to loose. they will never admit to the true facts and wrap the argument in "academical"views ... so instead of presenting the personal loss they dispute that "all thailand" will loose.

Most detailed advices have been given on this forum including graphs statistics that support the view that Thailand is going down and that all the Thai are heading for disaster... then why are BOI offices packed with requests for investmants?? why is so much cash flowing into Thailand??? why do so may forigners wish to retire in thailand??

may forigners have came here and made a lot of money. some of them did not pay taxes and went back home with all the money tand the Thai people did not benfit at all. many forigners have invested heavily in buying land in Tailand overiding many laws. they then developed those properties once again ileagly and now when no one wants to buy those properties and they stand to loose they are calling it as "major problem for thailand".

is it realy a major problem for thailand or for them personally as they are the one who will loose.

A crass generalisation along the lines of what you were complaining about four paragraphs above.

Thai legal companies are the criminals here and this will be set out plainly and painfully for Thailand if anybody starts stealing land!! The WTO have already stated that compensation must be paid! This is their first warning shot and not an empty idle threat. Mr and mrs Bloggs who retired here and bought land are innocent in the eyes of the Law whatever some racists may like to think.

none wil admit that they knew they were trying to make hips of money by bypassing the law. and now that the law is very clear they sit down and moan about it.

I belive in the law. Thailand is a free country and its laws need to be respected. Thailand has set laws to avoid Thais loosing jobs or look after Thai inersets. the Thai govermant objectives are to improve thai economy and not those of forign investors who override the laws.. Thailand needs forign know how and forign investment capital. but it is up to Thailand to decide where this investment is needed and serves Thai goals..

Ever heard of "don't look a gift horse in the mouth"

most investors are looking to make a high profit.. in many cases in services and manufacturing they do it through lowering labour costs. Western investors used Thailand and malasia as low paid labour hubs and when they got to expensive they shifted to Vietnam and cambodia. Those countries are now better then thialand as they offer cheaper labour.

The only reason the call centers are set up in india are because the labour costs in india are very cheap compared with the west.

So the argument of comparing thailand with those countries is not valid as they too will one day become expensive and then the investors will move to africa.

And Thai companies pay top dollar to their Burmese labourers! We pay our Thai staff at least twice the amount that Thai companies pay them? Why do we have a queue a mile long when we need staff?

if you wish to invest in Thailand do so where your investment is needed by thailand and not by your own intrest that may hurt Thais. A forigner buying land ileagaly to sell it ileagally to other forigners who will rent or sell to other forigners is assiting only his personal bank account. the forign capitasl is going in and out form forigners to forigners and thais do not benefit as its making real estate more expensive for thais.

A forigner using nominees is seting up a company to open a buisness that is intended to serve forigners is forcing by the power of his capital a thai out of buisness.

Complete clap trap. it's providing jobs. Compete why don't you?

Thailand want to improve education and as such are offering huge benefits to forign investment in educational facilities and high tech parks. some of the benefits include 100% ownership of the land.

The Thailand govermant has every right to decide what industries are to be considered as national intrest and i think that was what the commerce minister was trying to explain. thailand has the right to decide which sectors shhould remain in Thai hands so that Thailand will not be bought out by forigners or have forigners controlling "national assets". the nominee situation is a danger as the true controlling forces are handed to forigners and in many cases its contridicts national asstes and even security. by the way most countries do the same. do you think a rich Thai investor will be able to own the french Aircrat industries. do you think a Thai will be able to own advanced weapons sytems facility in the USA and would The UK allow Thai to own a nuclear power plant???

big difference between a Nuclear plant and 1/4 of a rai of former rubber plantation being bought by a retiring couple... Isn't there?

those countirs have laws to protect what they define as national assets ... so does the Thai govermant.

If you take the time to go through the BOI web site you will see that the bigest benefits are given to rural areas and improvement in qulity of life to the poorer areas. That where Thailanbd needs the investmants. it is not needed or priorotised to invest in the centre of bangkok Samui or Phuket.

Samui and Phuket would be quiet backwaters without all the foreign capital input. Why wasn't it developed 30 years ago? because nobody was interested in it until they thought somebody else wanted it, thats why!

Thailand want to improve education and as such are offering huge benefits to forign investment in educational facilities and high tech parks. some of the benefits include 100% ownership of the land.

have a look at the BOI list of promotions and see for yourself where Thailand is in need of investment. if it suits you come in and invest.

Dream on Highdiver. People like you with an education, should be devoting your time to studying why a Country with all the benefits that Thailand has is lagging behind its neighbours and set to be overtaken by Vietnam, China and Cambodia within a decade if they don't screw it up.

you got beautiful beaches and country side, lovely people (mostly), natural resources, no wartime reparations, the protection of the USA duing the 60's and 70's when a civil war was a possibility here with your communist party and most of the rest of Asia was at war.

Why is it? Why are so many people desperatly poor here, and so few here have such fantastic wealth? Not enough foreigners here to have kept so many millions of people poor and oppressed for such a long time. You gonna say the bad falangs took all the money and wealth from the poor Thais and gave it to the rich Thais?

Start looking inward and you may get somewhere. You won't improve the lot of your country by posturing on Thai visa, thats for sure.

Edited April 14, 2007 by Dupont

[highdiver]

st people here agree that Thailand should continue protecting what are regarded as strategic sectors in the same way as other countries do. We don't want to own controlling stakes in nuclear power plants or weapons factories, or mobile phone companies, sattelites, TV stations or airlines for that matter. You haven't explained how it will benefit the Thai economy to prohibit foreign investment in the entire service sector as in Annex 3 of the FBA. Annex 3 was originally intended in the original 1972 revolutionary decree to protect service industries (all of them) in which Thais are not yet ready to compete. The 1999 FBA repeated the same wording. After 35 years it seems that the government thinks that Thais are still not able to compete in the service sector. How many more years do they need and what will be the key criteria to indicate that they are ready?

i am sorry you did not understand . the new law does not forbid investmant in the service sector. it describes whar activities are forbiden to forigners to work in. you can be a hotel owner and even a manager but you can not be a bar man. if you wish to make a business in thailand in any one of the services as a forign investor then you just follow the rules: you make an aplication through the BOI to invest according to the criteria and if approved then you get 100% ownership and tax benefits. if you wish to do it as a forigner because you are not approved by the BOI then you must apply for a permit through the ministry and if approved you can do it. if you set up a comapny that is using nominees and overdie the law then you are ileagal.

The idea is to have large investors cxreating many work places for Thais and developing new services that thai can learn and improve from. The intention is very clear.. if you wish to have a buisness in services in thailand that will mostly employ you as the manager and because you aree wealthier then your thai competition you will drive them out of buisness and crate unemplyment then its not contibuting.

your argument even if clearly put still avoids the central issue. if it is forbiden and you do it the you are ileagal.

Also how enthusiastic would you be to invest in a business in which you provide all the expertise, brand name and customer networks, if you were not allowed to have management control of your own business? I noted that a delegation of Thai businessman recently returned from Vietnam ecstatic about the fact that Thai investors could own 100% of their own businesses in the service sector there and urged other Thais to go and look at the opportunities. I doubt that they would invest overseas at all under the conditions of the amended FBA which is effectively a prohibition on foreign investment in services. Think back to Thaksin's farcical attempt to buy Liverpool FC. I don't remember any one in the UK objecting at all to the fact that he was a Thai or even that he was a foreigner. The complaints were mainly that he was unsuitable because he was having impressive quantities of his own people murdered at the time. Otherwise he would have been welcome to buy a non-strategic national asset.

you explained it better then me.how enthusiastic would you be to invest in europe knowing that you are bypassing the laws and that you could end up loosing your buisness..if you wish to invest in a business in any country you must first obide by the laws.

if that country desires the expertise, brand name and customer networks they will award you with a leagal permission and total mangement controll. As for Vietnam a comunist country.. please go the embessy of Vietnam in bangkok and speak to the comercial attache. I am sure you will be surprissed by the true facts of investing in Vietnam. So why are so many people rushing there you may ask??? because there is a huge potential even if ileagalor very high risk and the greedy investors seeking the high reward. thai and forign take the chances.

There is a major differnce in buying a business legitimatly and not. do you think you can a leagal job in america without a green card??

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

Most detailed advices have been given on this forum including graphs statistics that support the view that Thailand is going down and that all the Thai are heading for disaster... then why are BOI offices packed with requests for investmants?? why is so much cash flowing into Thailand???

Perhaps you should tell the BOI about the evering increasing number of applications received. They would probably be interested. Perhaps you should tell the Commerce Ministry about all the foreign investors just lining up to give some Thai control of his money. Maybe you could get a job as a full time propaganda writer for the MOC.

"The BoI's report showed that European applications for investment privileges dropped by 17 per cent in the first two months of this year.

Investors have been waiting since late last year to get a clearer picture of the government's policy on foreign-investor restrictions under the draft amendment to the Foreign Business Act (FBA).

The investment projects proposed under the European applications were valued at Bt30.53 billion last year, down from Bt35.551 billion in 2005."

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/04/02...ss_30030826.php

"The report released by the Asian Development Bank (ADB) yesterday offers a sobering read for the military-backed Surayud government. The Asian Development Outlook report makes the grim forecast that Thailand's economic growth rate for this year will drop from last year's 5 per cent to 4 per cent, which is among the lowest of Asia's developing economies. The country's economic expansion this year is projected to fall well below the Asia-wide average of 6 per cent to 7 per cent. Factors contributing to the slowing economy include a significant drop in foreign direct investment and dampened domestic consumption.These negative factors stemmed from the September 19, 2006 coup that overthrew the corruption-prone Thaksin government but failed to resolve political uncertainty.

Instead of promoting transparency in its decision-making and developing a coherent policy direction, the interim government added to the confusion, which led foreign investors to get the wrong impression of its economic policy being anti-foreigner.

(My comment-Everyone except Thai government officials and most Thai citizens sees the economic policy for what it is, anti-foreigner.)

As a result, foreign investors have withheld their investments and adopted a wait and see attitude."

"The ADB advised the Bank of Thailand to replace the draconian controls on short-term capital inflow with a flat tax rate regime in order to shore up foreign investors' confidence and assure them that they are not discriminated against when they participate in Thailand's economy."

"Foreign investors also need to be reassured on the eventual form that the Foreign Business Act will take. The ADB suggests that the selective liberalisation of certain businesses in the services sector, such as banking, should be prioritised. This is a view shared by newly appointed Finance Minister Chalongphob Sussangkarn (the only sane official involved in economic policy) who called for a more relaxed and market-friendly approach by the Bank of Thailand and the Surayud government."

"Let's not forget that Thailand's slipping level of competitiveness is an issue that has not been seriously dealt with by successive governments. The situation has become so dire that Thailand's export-oriented manufacturing sector is now finding itself stuck with labour intensive products - unable to move up the technological chain toward more value-added products. At the same time, more and more Thai and foreign investors are now moving their production bases to countries with lower labour costs."

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/03/28...on_30030433.php

[highdiver]

Anyway perhaps we should get back to the thread topic. Could Thaigoon and Highdiver please explain what benefit accrues to the Thai economy and Thai people from prohibiting investment by foreigners in sectors other than those that are generally agreed to be strategic sectors? The Commerce Minister has so far only condescended to explain that "there is a sense of nationalism". Other government related figures have claimed that they have to amend the law because of Kularb Kaew which we all know will get off scot free due to its high level connections and the untouchable nature of the nominees involved. How will this sense of nationalism, felt so strongly by these wealthy Thais and yourselves, translate in terms of improving quality of life including education, healthcare etc for the majority of Thai people, not just your rich friends. Or is nationalism a luxury that only the wealthy can afford?

Thank you for getting the thread back on track. I can only speak for myslef and addres the issue of this forum from my own perspective.

First I am shocked by the attitude of some of the members and how they view thailand and its people. it seems the colonialist era never ended. Where do some mebers get the nerve of coming here with this patronising attiude.

we are to be greatfull for the all mighty Westerners who come here and advise us what is "best for thailand" and how the thai culture is not realy up to the standards and most of those good old perspectives have only one reason, to serves the personal intrest of those giving the advise.

Heads down no nonsence xenophobic cant for starters.

unfortunatly we are dealing with a lot of starters are we not???

Its a very common form of beahvior to "generalise a problem to serves one intrests.

When someone is hurt by a decision or action he then generelises the problem as in principle it creates public realations to the issue when in fact the intrest are a personal problem.

Those in America protesting that the closing down of a mottor factory are calling it a disaster to the economy and a begining of the end of the American way of life.

what realy bothers them is that they will not be able to pay rent or have food. they dont realy care about America they care about the personal problem...but it sounds better when you make it "Everyones" problem.

my Son when gets bullied by elder children comes home and says "its not Fair that older kids use force on smaller kids" ....that does not bother him when he does it to younger ones.

I feel that most of the posts here are using a similler form of presentation and I can not avoid the feeling that the ones writing them have so much to loose. they will never admit to the true facts and wrap the argument in "academical"views ... so instead of presenting the personal loss they dispute that "all thailand" will loose.

Most detailed advices have been given on this forum including graphs statistics that support the view that Thailand is going down and that all the Thai are heading for disaster... then why are BOI offices packed with requests for investmants?? why is so much cash flowing into Thailand??? why do so may forigners wish to retire in thailand??

may forigners have came here and made a lot of money. some of them did not pay taxes and went back home with all the money tand the Thai people did not benfit at all. many forigners have invested heavily in buying land in Tailand overiding many laws. they then developed those properties once again ileagly and now when no one wants to buy those properties and they stand to loose they are calling it as "major problem for thailand".

is it realy a major problem for thailand or for them personally as they are the one who will loose.

A crass generalisation along the lines of what you were complaining about four paragraphs above.

point well taken...after all we are all humans... it still does not contridict the issue itself that hose who stand to losse are the ones compalining and genrelising it as a problem for thailandThai legal companies are the criminals here and this will be set out plainly and painfully for Thailand if anybody starts stealing land!! The WTO have already stated that compensation must be paid! This is their first warning shot and not an empty idle threat. Mr and mrs Bloggs who retired here and bought land are innocent in the eyes of the Law whatever some racists may like to think.

you can not still land that did not belong in the first them in the first place. you can not buy a stolen car and then complain when the poilce confiscates it. asnd if you bought the land using a fraudent action to override the law you are not innocent in the eyes of any of any country.

none wil admit that they knew they were trying to make hips of money by bypassing the law. and now that the law is very clear they sit down and moan about it.

I belive in the law. Thailand is a free country and its laws need to be respected. Thailand has set laws to avoid Thais loosing jobs or look after Thai inersets. the Thai govermant objectives are to improve thai economy and not those of forign investors who override the laws.. Thailand needs forign know how and forign investment capital. but it is up to Thailand to decide where this investment is needed and serves Thai goals..

Ever heard of "don't look a gift horse in the mouth"

most investors are looking to make a high profit.. in many cases in services and manufacturing they do it through lowering labour costs. Western investors used Thailand and malasia as low paid labour hubs and when they got to expensive they shifted to Vietnam and cambodia. Those countries are now better then thialand as they offer cheaper labour.

The only reason the call centers are set up in india are because the labour costs in india are very cheap compared with the west.

So the argument of comparing thailand with those countries is not valid as they too will one day become expensive and then the investors will move to africa.

And Thai companies pay top dollar to their Burmese labourers! We pay our Thai staff at least twice the amount that Thai companies pay them? Why do we have a queue a mile long when we need staff?

and american py top dollars to mexican and brittish pay top pounds to the nigerians and france pays top euro to the marrocanss .... so wht are you sayiong that we lerarnt from the west how to pay less for manpower.???

if you are a good employer and pay and take care of your staff then its great good for you and good for the Thais working for you.

if you wish to invest in Thailand do so where your investment is needed by thailand and not by your own intrest that may hurt Thais. A forigner buying land ileagaly to sell it ileagally to other forigners who will rent or sell to other forigners is assiting only his personal bank account. the forign capitasl is going in and out form forigners to forigners and thais do not benefit as its making real estate more expensive for thais.

A forigner using nominees is seting up a company to open a buisness that is intended to serve forigners is forcing by the power of his capital a thai out of buisness.

Complete clap trap. it's providing jobs. Compete why don't you?

because i can not afford the competition with a rich farrang who can sustain losses until he puts me out of business. if they are so good why dont they do it in thire own countries? why dont they invest in education making thailand a better place if they are so concerned about thailand, but rather invest in bars reterauntsand services??

Thailand want to improve education and as such are offering huge benefits to forign investment in educational facilities and high tech parks. some of the benefits include 100% ownership of the land.

The Thailand govermant has every right to decide what industries are to be considered as national intrest and i think that was what the commerce minister was trying to explain. thailand has the right to decide which sectors shhould remain in Thai hands so that Thailand will not be bought out by forigners or have forigners controlling "national assets". the nominee situation is a danger as the true controlling forces are handed to forigners and in many cases its contridicts national asstes and even security. by the way most countries do the same. do you think a rich Thai investor will be able to own the french Aircrat industries. do you think a Thai will be able to own advanced weapons sytems facility in the USA and would The UK allow Thai to own a nuclear power plant???

big difference between a Nuclear plant and 1/4 of a rai of former rubber plantation being bought by a retiring couple... Isn't there?

yes there is but in both caes aquiring asny of them by bypassing the law is ileagal.

those countirs have laws to protect what they define as national assets ... so does the Thai govermant.

If you take the time to go through the BOI web site you will see that the bigest benefits are given to rural areas and improvement in qulity of life to the poorer areas. That where Thailanbd needs the investmants. it is not needed or priorotised to invest in the centre of bangkok Samui or Phuket.

Samui and Phuket would be quiet backwaters without all the foreign capital input. Why wasn't it developed 30 years ago? because nobody was interested in it until they thought somebody else wanted it, thats why!

I beg to differ. the first class hotel in Samui were opened by thai companies. Amari, Central, and the first airport by bangkok ariways. then came the forigners and thought "wow" what a potential.!!! and over devleoped the island causing increase in all prices and costs. yes many thais habe prospuired but many have been set back.

Thailand want to improve education and as such are offering huge benefits to forign investment in educational facilities and high tech parks. some of the benefits include 100% ownership of the land.

have a look at the BOI list of promotions and see for yourself where Thailand is in need of investment. if it suits you come in and invest.

Dream on Highdiver. People like you with an education, should be devoting your time to studying why a Country with all the benefits that Thailand has is lagging behind its neighbours and set to be overtaken by Vietnam, China and Cambodia within a decade if they don't screw it up.

I am devoting a lot of time trying to understand why this is happening. and the only explenation I have is that once the forigners relised that the golden bowl is closing they run to the next one.

you got beautiful beaches and country side, lovely people (mostly), natural resources, no wartime reparations, the protection of the USA duing the 60's and 70's when a civil war was a possibility here with your communist party and most of the rest of Asia was at war.

Why is it? Why are so many people desperatly poor here, and so few here have such fantastic wealth? Not enough foreigners here to have kept so many millions of people poor and oppressed for such a long time. You gonna say the bad falangs took all the money and wealth from the poor Thais and gave it to the rich Thais?

I have no idea wher you got thisd from as i never even sugested it. tahiland has rich and poor people just as other countries. but we will try and make it better.

Start looking inward and you may get somewhere. You won't improve the lot of your country by posturing on Thai visa, thats for sure.

no i will not, but i will give arrogant forigenrs that think we are a third world country full of natives rice pickers with a sole duty to provide easier lifes for forigners .it abou time that someone reminds all our guests that they are guests and shhould start beahving like ones. and the first thing we expect from guest is for them obide by the law.

[jamie46]

I am so sorry about ever being conned by a Respected Thai real estate firm into setting up a company to buy a house like every other foreigner who bought a retirment house here. Nothing but lies trickery and more lie and racism and sillyness. Just all embaressment and sillyness here. I'm embarressedfor the chinese Thais who made these silly changes in order to boost their profits from their condo building and land buying buisnesses on the side. Unless they are just pure stupid which i'm sure they are not. they are sneaky not stupid. I hope so anywa unless they are.

Embaressing Thailand.

[highdiver]

Dear Chang mai american it not nice or polite to write so big and can be understood that you are shouting... lets keep it cevelised even if we disagree.

Most detailed advices have been given on this forum including graphs statistics that support the view that Thailand is going down and that all the Thai are heading for disaster... then why are BOI offices packed with requests for investmants?? why is so much cash flowing into Thailand???

Perhaps you should tell the BOI about the evering increasing number of applications received. They would probably be interested. Perhaps you should tell the Commerce Ministry about all the foreign investors just lining up to give some Thai control of his money. Maybe you could get a job as a full time propaganda writer for the MOC.

The BoI's report showed that European applications for investment privileges dropped by 17 per cent in the first two months of this year.

Investors have been waiting since late last year to get a clearer picture of the government's policy on foreign-investor restrictions under the draft amendment to the Foreign Business Act (FBA).

The investment projects proposed under the European applications were valued at Bt30.53 billion last year, down from Bt35.551 billion in 2005."

acually 2 impotrnat points

1. BOI investment are not affected by the FBA that is a fact.

2. apilication have risen by nearly 100%

if you wish to see please go the BOI web site and read for your self.

http://www.boi.go.th/english/download/stat...t/83/EUI072.pdf

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/04/02...ss_30030826.php

"The report released by the Asian Development Bank (ADB) yesterday offers a sobering read for the military-backed Surayud government. The Asian Development Outlook report makes the grim forecast that Thailand's economic growth rate for this year will drop from last year's 5 per cent to 4 per cent, which is among the lowest of Asia's developing economies. The country's economic expansion this year is projected to fall well below the Asia-wide average of 6 per cent to 7 per cent. Factors contributing to the slowing economy include a significant drop in foreign direct investment and dampened domestic consumption.These negative factors stemmed from the September 19, 2006 coup that overthrew the corruption-prone Thaksin government but failed to resolve political uncertainty.

Instead of promoting transparency in its decision-making and developing a coherent policy direction, the interim government added to the confusion, which led foreign investors to get the wrong impression of its economic policy being anti-foreigner.

(My comment-Everyone except Thai government officials and most Thai citizens sees the economic policy for what it is, anti-foreigner.)

As a result, foreign investors have withheld their investments and adopted a wait and see attitude."

and since January major hadge funds have invested so heavily in thai baht that it is realy livving up to the expectations

"The ADB advised the Bank of Thailand to replace the draconian controls on short-term capital inflow with a flat tax rate regime in order to shore up foreign investors' confidence and assure them that they are not discriminated against when they participate in Thailand's economy."

"Foreign investors also need to be reassured on the eventual form that the Foreign Business Act will take. The ADB suggests that the selective liberalisation of certain businesses in the services sector, such as banking, should be prioritised. This is a view shared by newly appointed Finance Minister Chalongphob Sussangkarn (the only sane official involved in economic policy) who called for a more relaxed and market-friendly approach by the Bank of Thailand and the Surayud government."

"Let's not forget that Thailand's slipping level of competitiveness is an issue that has not been seriously dealt with by successive governments. The situation has become so dire that Thailand's export-oriented manufacturing sector is now finding itself stuck with labour intensive products - unable to move up the technological chain toward more value-added products. At the same time, more and more Thai and foreign investors are now moving their production bases to countries with lower labour costs."

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/03/28...on_30030433.php

there are many points thast you are refrencing that have enlgihted me. thank you for youre post.

[Plus]

the first thing we expect from guest is for them obide by the law

Yeah, but what if what yesterday was a law became illegal today???

Using nominees was legal, wasn't it? Or at least it wasn't punishable.

I'm talking about issues like restaurants, bars, and buying houses in company's name - issues dear to many of TV posters.

I wish the govt clarify how these groups of people will be affected and whether these people are the real target, even if not mentioned in any govt press releases. It appears that they have legitimate concerns.

They might be small in overall scheme of things, but here, on TV, they rule the day.

BTW, posters in Thaigoon/Dupont debate are forced to take extreme opposite sides and defend extreme pro- anti- views. I'm not sure that this is where they really stand.

[jamie46]

How embarressing,

I can't seem to spell embarressing Thailand correctly,

is it embarressing thailand or embare assing Thailand, thats whats it'slike here being bare assed with a bunch of them jail type homosexuals looking to do what they do.

Oh i remember now it's

Embarrassing Thailand.

Moral of story " Like your father said in his old age, never trust a chinaman. chinamen don't trust china men and chinamen are xenophobic so why in god's name would you a foreigner ever trust a chinaman."

[highdiver]

the first thing we expect from guest is for them obide by the law

Yeah, but what if what yesterday was a law became illegal today???

Using nominees was legal, wasn't it? Or at least it wasn't punishable.

I'm talking about issues like restaurants, bars, and buying houses in company's name - issues dear to many of TV posters.

I wish the govt clarify how these groups of people will be affected and whether these people are the real target, even if not mentioned in any govt press releases. It appears that they have legitimate concerns.

They might be small in overall scheme of things, but here, on TV, they rule the day.

BTW, posters in Thaigoon/Dupont debate are forced to take extreme opposite sides and defend extreme pro- anti- views. I'm not sure that this is where they really stand.

my dear Plus.

the law hasd been in place for many years, unfortunatly it as by passed and exploited by forigners who knew it or were exploited by greedy realeate sales or lawyers. it has allways been ileagal to use nominees. and it has allways been punishable.

those issues have been disussed in TV in manyforums and posts. but it seems that every time someone has brought this up, others would find more great ideas how to by pass the law.

I understand yor frustration and concerns and I think a good lawyer can assit you in making sure your buisness is legal and approved.

[Plus]

Hold on, voting rights were never ever mentioned all these years. It's only today that they became a concern, they became illegal. Up until now you could have all Thai partners but still control your company thought voting rights. It wasn't illegal.

It has became clearer now - the definition of a nominee, I agree, but it was legal nevertheless, and now the law is being applied retrocactively. It's a dangerous ground, especially if you start jailing people who had lived here and had legal business for ten years.