Great time to buy a condo in Pattaya

[Pattaya46]

On 3/27/2020 at 12:04 PM, baansgr said:

Land office is shut, no can do

Are you sure about that ?

I know someone who has an appointment

at Land Office this Monday for a loan... ??

[scubascuba3]

36 minutes ago, crazykopite said:

Who would want to buy a condo in a dump of a place named Pattaya no thanks and I’d say the same if they offered it to me for free.

Where do you prefer? Patpong?

[Hwood0606]

I’m staying in an 80 sqm condo on a 6 month term in Phra Tamnak for 27k/mo. The landlord has already reached out to me offering a lower rate if I decide to stay longer... obviously renters are scarce. 
 

This area is super saturated with 4 new buildings on the brink of opening. A short Google search tells me the existing buildings are lucky to be at 50% occupancy. Someone with basic real estate knowledge would see this as a buy opportunity but my concern is the length of time it will take for this area to bottom out and then recover... if it recovers.
 

My advice, there’s no rush. Hoard your cash, with time the Investment will present itself. 

[fuzzie]

I have had a condo For over 9 years, 36 Sqmtr Sea view, at the time was 1.750.000, Today selling for 1,250.000, at the time baht 58.00 today baht39.00 ,will wait this one out, In jomtien

[Elkski]

Even if a vaccine is proven effective and not to many side effects will Worlwide tourism ever recover?  Who will want to travel to trash  littered, record  smog , govt controlled Thailand?  How long will the poor economic conditions need to last before many investors seem ir a success to get 25% of their investment back?  Surely the crackdown on Airbnb will be promoted by the hotel owners with ears of the elite. By the time this virus or the c20 or 21st version round this earth many condos will never see its owner again.   Many buildings will not have enough maintenance money and fall into disrepair.  Is buying a condo in Thailand going to be an investment or a burden on your heirs

[Ron jeremy]

Best get in with the nigh wish group

at least their returns are guaranteed 

[thailand49]

Personally buying property in Pattaya isn't a great investment for appreciation but there are reasons to buy but it is too early right now to determine if a fire sale is going to happen.

 

Even when the Russians were hurting the prices weren't coming down nor it did in 1997, it depends on who is holding title just before the Virus I was looking at a few small condos 28-35 as close to the beach as possible from my Real Estate experience I look for smaller building normally no more than 12 stories. This time around I'm kind of excited since I firmly believe it will hurt the Thais the most and as we know in theory 51% of these buildings must be owned by them. When thing comes out in the wash I think if I look hard I can find a deal or two.

 

I purchased a real small one years ago in Jomtien just off the beach further down away from majority of the tourist. It already had a tenant his rent was 5000 baht a month plus his utilities he was the ideal tenant and I was the ideal owner the last two years I've done even his TM 30 for him. Whatever needs to be fix I fix it myself if not I hired it is done fast and quick. What I pay and what he pay in rent he basically cover what I pay for the condo.

 

That is what I'm looking for even before the Virus, something just under a million I've seen a few at 890-990,000 if obtainable for 100-150,000? less I grab it after considering all the others negatives and positives. I can do the majority of the upgrades myself to make it more attractive than majority on the market and rent it out just to get my return back as quick as possible.

 

Why, I leave it all to my Thai son him being Thai will need all the help he can get and having a roof over your head is always #1 priority. When all said and done if I outlive the Misses I love being close to the water I plan to move into one I don't want my son and his wife looking after me whatever time I have left I want to go doing the nasty?

[elliss]

7 hours ago, kevinsan said:

And that's at 50 baht to the dollar. 1997 - Skylines filled with abandoned buildings. Plus the condo market demographic insures that at least 10% of foreign owners shall never return.

 

 You are being optimistic . 

   Thailand as we knew it,   will never be the  same ..

 

       

Edited March 29, 2020 by elliss

[URMySunshine]

6 hours ago, elliss said:

 

 You are being optimistic . 

   Thailand as we knew it,   will never be the  same ..

 

       

The world won't but Thailand will have it's own variant of going to hell in handcart. 

[izod10]

11 hours ago, newnative said:

      .  But, as a full-time resident, that's not what I have observed.  Instead, I see a lot of improvements finally being made by the city and a lot of investment by private companies in new hotels, new shopping, and new entertainment.  Today my partner and I ventured out and--masks on--toured the showroom of a new project called Arom on Wong Amat Beach, a beautiful condominium and hotel project.   Hopefully, nice projects like this will continue when the virus abates.  

Nice attempt, attempting to talk up a subject that's as flat as a pancake,getting flatter by the day

  Yes seen the nice smart hotels,new projects on offer  lol,  and all I can say as a long time resident,its a disaster setting, all empty,roped off,the new condo projects will never see the light of day..usual "con" "fast tram service,""self financing" etc etc etc  endless happy smiling faces  beaming out of a fancy pile of concrete and tiling       Must have grimace instead of an actual smile,a piece of 4x4 stuffed up their backside

 

  Hopeless is a term Id apply  Like to see your balance sheet ..profit/loss on all your "investments " here.  " To own a condo is to enjoy it",  not with its a.rse hanging out of its actual worth

[bkk6060]

11 hours ago, Hwood0606 said:

I’m staying in an 80 sqm condo on a 6 month term in Phra Tamnak for 27k/mo

Seems you are paying way too much.

20,000 would be about the proper price.

[bkk6060]

9 hours ago, elliss said:

Thailand as we knew it,   will never be the  same ..

Should be better with less people.

[5633572526]

On 3/28/2020 at 5:54 PM, lkn said:

Utilities can be shut off, and common fee is on average probably 900-1,800 baht per month for your typical shoebox condo.

 

That’s likely why many sellers will put a price on their condo and not budge on that, because it’s practically free to just wait until someone is willing to pay the asking price. 

 

There’s a new condo/real estate tax coming up soon, but that’ll also be peanuts compared to e.g. selling at a 100,000 baht discount, which would be common fees and tax for five years or more — and a 100,000 baht discount is not exactly a bargain…

 

So yeah, I doubt people will “walk away” from their condos because they can’t afford the expenses.

People walk away from bad investments even in good times. it will happen,

maybe not in mass quantities but it will happen.

[lkn]

4 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

Seems you are paying way too much.

20,000 would be about the proper price.

What are you basing that on?

 

He is paying 27,000 baht × 12 months / 80 sq.m. = 4,050 baht per sq.m.

 

If we assume a rental yield of 6% then the cost per sq.m. is 67,500 baht or 5.4M for the entire condo.

 

You think their landlord paid less than 5.4M baht for a 80 sq.m. condo in Phra Tamnak?

 

A quick look at Hipflat seems to show that asking prices on average are definitely higher than the figures above, and large condos are few and far between, so I could imagine asking for a premium for these, though how well placed the condo is (e.g. unobstructed sea view), how modern, and how well built it is, also plays a role.

[lkn]

20 hours ago, Airalee said:

Wait for the 1.2% property tax to hit all those *investment* condos where people can’t find tenants […]

There are rates for agricultural, residential, commercial, and vacant real estate. The rate you quote is for the latter two categories, although there are some ceilings based on appraised value.

 

A condo that is not rented out should still be classified as residential, with vacant basically being an empty (undeveloped) plot of land. Although these things are to be defined later in ministerial regulations.

 

The effective tax rate for most condos will probably be 0.02% but I don’t say this with much confidence, as the information I have read so far is still leaving questions unanswered.

 

Edited March 30, 2020 by lkn

[Airalee]

12 minutes ago, lkn said:

What are you basing that on?

 

He is paying 27,000 baht × 12 months / 80 sq.m. = 4,050 baht per sq.m.

 

If we assume a rental yield of 6% then the cost per sq.m. is 67,500 baht or 5.4M for the entire condo.

 

You think their landlord paid less than 5.4M baht for a 80 sq.m. condo in Phra Tamnak?

 

A quick look at Hipflat seems to show that asking prices on average are definitely higher than the figures above, and large condos are few and far between, so I could imagine asking for a premium for these, though how well placed the condo is (e.g. unobstructed sea view), how modern, and how well built it is, also plays a role.

1.  There are many 80sqm units in “Phra Tamnak” for under 5.4M.  and renting for less than 20k.  
 

2.  I would never assume a 6% rental yield.

 

3.  Unless the poster is willing to say which building/unit he is living in, one will never know if he is paying too little (new ocean view unit) or too much (one of the dingy older condos)

[Airalee]

8 minutes ago, lkn said:

There are rates for agricultural, residential, commercial, and vacant real estate. The rate you quote is for the latter two categories, although there are some ceilings based on appraised value.

 

A condo that is not rented out should still be classified as residential, with vacant basically being an empty (undeveloped) plot of land. Although these things are to be defined later in ministerial regulations.

 

The effective tax rate for most condos will probably be 0.02% but I don’t say this with much confidence, as the information I have read so far is still leaving questions unanswered.

 

This is where I got my figures.  Residential rates apply to owner occupied residences from what I can tell.  If you can find something more definitive, have at it.

 

https://www.bdo.co.th/en-gb/insights/tax-updates/new-property-tax-law-in-thailand

[lkn]

6 minutes ago, Airalee said:

1.  There are many 80sqm units in “Phra Tamnak” for under 5.4M.  and renting for less than 20k.  
 

2.  I would never assume a 6% rental yield.

 

3.  Unless the poster is willing to say which building/unit he is living in, one will never know if he is paying too little (new ocean view unit) or too much (one of the dingy older condos)

On the first item, @bkk6060 was saying OP was “paying way too much”. On your last point, we can’t really tell without knowing exactly where OP is living, my point is simply that on the face of it, 27k per month for 80 sq.m. does not at all sound expensive, and the existence of cheaper condos does not mean OP is overpaying, as I think we all know that these cheap condos are, well, cheap for a reason.

 

As for assumption about rental yield: If someone is buying something for X and renting it out for 6% of X per year, then I don’t think the renter is overpaying, as that is the generally accepted lower rental yield that makes the business model feasible (remember management fee, taxes, wear and tear, agent fee, etc.) — therefore in the calculation of whether OP is paying way too much, a 6% rental yield is reasonable, though I know many posters on this forum will claim they should stay for less because the market has been crashing for the last 10 years…

[lkn]

27 minutes ago, Airalee said:

This is where I got my figures.  Residential rates apply to owner occupied residences from what I can tell.

That link says that real estate for residential use is capped at 0.3%.

 

They only mention the owner occupied residence in their example, but that comes to 0.02%, i.e. less than the threshold in their table for “residential use”, indicating that non-owner occupied real estate would still be considered residential, especially as the two other concrete alternatives are agricultural and vacant (undeveloped).

 

But as I wrote myself in my post: The information so far has left many questions unanswered, and we are still waiting on further clarifications from the ministry.

 

Though from the information so far, I don’t think we can assume a 1.2% tax for condos, that appears to be the upper bound for non-residential real estate.

 

Edited March 30, 2020 by lkn

[newnative]

4 hours ago, izod10 said:

Nice attempt, attempting to talk up a subject that's as flat as a pancake,getting flatter by the day

  Yes seen the nice smart hotels,new projects on offer  lol,  and all I can say as a long time resident,its a disaster setting, all empty,roped off,the new condo projects will never see the light of day..usual "con" "fast tram service,""self financing" etc etc etc  endless happy smiling faces  beaming out of a fancy pile of concrete and tiling       Must have grimace instead of an actual smile,a piece of 4x4 stuffed up their backside

 

  Hopeless is a term Id apply  Like to see your balance sheet ..profit/loss on all your "investments " here.  " To own a condo is to enjoy it",  not with its a.rse hanging out of its actual worth

     I also responded to your comment on the View Talay 2 thread and you can read it there.  Basically I believe you are thinking way too short-term regarding tourism, the Chinese, and the virus.  There is more of that thinking with this post.  The problems of the virus are world-wide and not unique to Pattaya.  Tourist destinations are dead everywhere but I am hopeful that they will recover when the virus is brought under control.  When is anyone's guess.  Of course there will be some businesses that don't survive--also true everywhere.  There will likely be a new normal and perhaps fewer Mom and Pop businesses and more name-brand chain businesses with larger financial resources.  But, in time, I hope the Mom and Pop businesses will slowly return, as well, for they add variety and vitality.

     If you are a long-term Pattaya resident, you must have noticed things like the tunnel, the beach widening and improvement, the flood control projects going on, and all the road improvements being done just about everywhere you drive.  Cosy Beach is a mess right now with all the road improvements and detours there right now but I think everyone can agree that the roads were awful and they will be much better when the work is done.  It seems that they have also started burying some of the overhead wires on North Pattaya Road-a sentence I never thought I would ever type.   Examples of private industry investment are everywhere and I choose to see them as positive.  

     Recently that wild and crazy guy Destiny1990 posted that I had lost money '100% of the time' on my condo sales.  Harsh.  Not 75% or an even a somewhat hopeful 50%.  Nope.  Dead cert at 100%.  According to Des, only the 'Land Office and the agent' have ever made any money on a condo sale.  You also seem to question whether any money could have ever been made in Pattaya with a condo purchase.  

    Since my partner and I have done and sold 18 of these, it sort of begs the question as to why we would have kept doing them if we lost money 100% of time.  Not being rich, we have been buying a condo, fixing it up, selling it, and using the profit to then buy a slightly bigger and nicer condo the next time.  Started with 2 in Rayong on the beach and then moved to Pattaya.  If we were losing money each time, we would have worked ourselves down to a refrigerator box by now. 

    Recently, I gave a detailed description with rough financials of the 2 bedroom/2 bath condo we did at Centric Sea.  Can't remember what post but it's out there somewhere.  Basically, bought off-plan for around 7MB, spent around 1MB on the renovation even though it was a new condo, lived in it for a year, listed it for 10.5MB, sold it for 10.25MB.  We also bought an off-plan fully-furnished 1 bedroom there for 2.4MB, spent about 100,000 to complete the furnishings--tv, clothes washer, art, balcony furniture, bath vanity cabinet, small appliances, etc.--rented it for a year at 22,000 baht and sold it for 3.25MB.

    Example 2:  1 bedroom investment condo at The Base.  Bought off-plan for 2.9MB.  Sansiri paid the closing costs and first year's condo fees for early buyers, which we were. The condo came fully-furnished but we spent around 100,000 baht on appliances, electronics, window blinds, balcony furniture, artwork, and accessories.  We also added a bath vanity cabinet and an extra light in the bathroom.  Rented the condo for a year at 25,000 baht a month--all profit after the first month's rent was paid to the agent.  After a year, we saw signs The Base was heading south with illegal daily renters so we put the condo on the market for 4.5MB and sold for 4.25MB.  

     Example 3:  View Talay 48sqm studio condo shell renovations at VT3, VT5C, and VT5D.  Bought for around 2MB, renovated for around 350,000 baht, sold for between 3.25 and 3.5MB.  We did 6 of these and likely weren't the only ones doing them.  Quite easy to sell these to buyers who didn't want to do the work themselves during the period when View Talay was the dominant player in town.  

     If you are a full-time resident and have been here for a few years these examples should ring true.  As with any investment, it helps to have good timing when you buy and sell. Some photos of our View Talay and Base projects and the before and after bath photos of our latest project.   And, yes, those are rubber duckies in The Base bath--always good to have some fun.

[Airalee]

24 minutes ago, lkn said:

On the first item, @bkk6060 was saying OP was “paying way too much”. On your last point, we can’t really tell without knowing exactly where OP is living, my point is simply that on the face of it, 27k per month for 80 sq.m. does not at all sound expensive, and the existence of cheaper condos does not mean OP is overpaying, as I think we all know that these cheap condos are, well, cheap for a reason.

 

As for assumption about rental yield: If someone is buying something for X and renting it out for 6% of X per year, then I don’t think the renter is overpaying, as that is the generally accepted lower rental yield that makes the business model feasible (remember management fee, taxes, wear and tear, agent fee, etc.) — therefore in the calculation of whether OP is paying way too much, a 6% rental yield is reasonable, though I know many posters on this forum will claim they should stay for less because the market has been crashing for the last 10 years…

As I said, we need more information as to wether or not a person is either paying under or above “market” rates....whatever those may be.  Hell....we can’t even get a good grasp on what properties are selling for as there is no MLS type system where one can find recent comps or what a particular property has sold (and resold...) for.

 

As far as using rental yields, if we were to run it backwards, using the 6% return you suggest...it would show how optimistic many sellers are with their asking prices.   When I see condos for rent for 20-21k with the same unit asking 8.1M, the return on capital (ignoring the return of capital) is horrendous after knocking off agency commissions (usually 1 month rent), annual commons fees + any special assessments, plus the repair/replacement of all the things that wear out or break (appliances, furniture) that a resident owner would have to pay for regardless.  
 

There are dreamers also asking too much for rent which would make the ROI appear to be more in favor of the buyer but its not. 

 

The person paying 27k rent above...we have no idea of what his Landlord paid originally for the condo or any other information so ROI is impossible to ascertain.  He may be paying too little, he may be paying too much or he might be dead on the true market rate.  Impossible to know.

 

Being that the P/E ratio is so far off, something has to give for the market to return.  Incomes don’t support the rents needed to make many (if not most) condominium purchases a “wise” use of ones money (be it a cash purchase or financed)...and neither would I suspect retiree savings, pensions etc. to support them either.  That said, there are always those “needle in a haystack” units for sale where the owner is realistic and willing to negotiate down to a fair price.

 

With regards to upcoming property taxes, in my opinion, everything I have read is too vague.  I still feel that many units will go unrented and thus be considered vacant/non-utilized property subject to the 1.2% tax rate.  I guess we will have to wait and see how the cookie crumbles.  I certainly wouldn’t want to be a foreign landlord, or even own a unit that isn’t my primary residence in the present economic climate with a “tax donkey” target painted on my back.

 

You pay your money and you take your chances. 

[izod10]

Above,  (50)   not copying it. Yes did follow your progress,but most was Chinese involvement,not there now or ever will be.

 

  more interested in recent quote of yours,..was it 2 to 3 potential buyers answering for sale ad?....let me guess  snapped your hand off at a moments notice.  Id say its people trying to pick your bones clean,looking for desperate sellers wanting to bail out at any price

   Up to you,was never interested in buying anything here

Edited March 30, 2020 by izod10

[Airalee]

39 minutes ago, newnative said:

     I also responded to your comment on the View Talay 2 thread and you can read it there.  Basically I believe you are thinking way too short-term regarding tourism, the Chinese, and the virus.  There is more of that thinking with this post.  The problems of the virus are world-wide and not unique to Pattaya.  Tourist destinations are dead everywhere but I am hopeful that they will recover when the virus is brought under control.  When is anyone's guess.  Of course there will be some businesses that don't survive--also true everywhere.  There will likely be a new normal and perhaps fewer Mom and Pop businesses and more name-brand chain businesses with larger financial resources.  But, in time, I hope the Mom and Pop businesses will slowly return, as well, for they add variety and vitality.

     If you are a long-term Pattaya resident, you must have noticed things like the tunnel, the beach widening and improvement, the flood control projects going on, and all the road improvements being done just about everywhere you drive.  Cosy Beach is a mess right now with all the road improvements and detours there right now but I think everyone can agree that the roads were awful and they will be much better when the work is done.  It seems that they have also started burying some of the overhead wires on North Pattaya Road-a sentence I never thought I would ever type.   Examples of private industry investment are everywhere and I choose to see them as positive.  

     Recently that wild and crazy guy Destiny1990 posted that I had lost money '100% of the time' on my condo sales.  Harsh.  Not 75% or an even a somewhat hopeful 50%.  Nope.  Dead cert at 100%.  According to Des, only the 'Land Office and the agent' have ever made any money on a condo sale.  You also seem to question whether any money could have ever been made in Pattaya with a condo purchase.  

    Since my partner and I have done and sold 18 of these, it sort of begs the question as to why we would have kept doing them if we lost money 100% of time.  Not being rich, we have been buying a condo, fixing it up, selling it, and using the profit to then buy a slightly bigger and nicer condo the next time.  Started with 2 in Rayong on the beach and then moved to Pattaya.  If we were losing money each time, we would have worked ourselves down to a refrigerator box by now. 

    Recently, I gave a detailed description with rough financials of the 2 bedroom/2 bath condo we did at Centric Sea.  Can't remember what post but it's out there somewhere.  Basically, bought off-plan for around 7MB, spent around 1MB on the renovation even though it was a new condo, lived in it for a year, listed it for 10.5MB, sold it for 10.25MB.  We also bought an off-plan fully-furnished 1 bedroom there for 2.4MB, spent about 100,000 to complete the furnishings--tv, clothes washer, art, balcony furniture, bath vanity cabinet, small appliances, etc.--rented it for a year at 22,000 baht and sold it for 3.25MB.

    Example 2:  1 bedroom investment condo at The Base.  Bought off-plan for 2.9MB.  Sansiri paid the closing costs and first year's condo fees for early buyers, which we were. The condo came fully-furnished but we spent around 100,000 baht on appliances, electronics, window blinds, balcony furniture, artwork, and accessories.  We also added a bath vanity cabinet and an extra light in the bathroom.  Rented the condo for a year at 25,000 baht a month--all profit after the first month's rent was paid to the agent.  After a year, we saw signs The Base was heading south with illegal daily renters so we put the condo on the market for 4.5MB and sold for 4.25MB.  

     Example 3:  View Talay 48sqm studio condo shell renovations at VT3, VT5C, and VT5D.  Bought for around 2MB, renovated for around 350,000 baht, sold for between 3.25 and 3.5MB.  We did 6 of these and likely weren't the only ones doing them.  Quite easy to sell these to buyers who didn't want to do the work themselves during the period when View Talay was the dominant player in town.  

     If you are a full-time resident and have been here for a few years these examples should ring true.  As with any investment, it helps to have good timing when you buy and sell. Some photos of our View Talay and Base projects and the before and after bath photos of our latest project.   And, yes, those are rubber duckies in The Base bath--always good to have some fun.

You do tasteful remodels/flips...that’s why your stuff sells.  When the agent tried to sell me on the fact that the condo I’m looking at buying has been remodeled, the first comment out of my mouth was “it needs a full gut job”.  I’m sure I will spend way too much on remodeling it too (multiples of what you’ve quoted).

[newnative]

36 minutes ago, Airalee said:

You do tasteful remodels/flips...that’s why your stuff sells.  When the agent tried to sell me on the fact that the condo I’m looking at buying has been remodeled, the first comment out of my mouth was “it needs a full gut job”.  I’m sure I will spend way too much on remodeling it too (multiples of what you’ve quoted).

    Too true regarding someone else's 'remodel'!   Give me a condo that nothing has been done to rather than one with brand new wall-to-wall pink carpeting and purple velvet wallpaper that all needs to be ripped out. 

     When you renovate, the first thing is whether you are doing it for yourself or as a rental or flip.  When we renovate for ourselves, my partner and I, like you, will always spend a lot more.  We keep an eye on the bottom line and possibly re-sale at some point but we do the design to please us and that means high-end granite, custom cabinets, big fridge with automatic ice maker, 65 inch tvs, not just a clothes washer but a dryer, as well, and so on.  Sometimes, as with Centric Sea, it meant tearing out a brand new kitchen and starting over with a much better, higher quality design. 

    With a flip, it's important to recognize that with a lot of condos there is an upper price limit, no matter how good your renovation.  I think we did a very good renovation with the View Talay studios.  We did a design that turned the studios into junior 1 bedrooms with a partition down the middle and 2 air-cons for the now 2 separate spaces.  Nice custom kitchen cabinets and bedroom armoire/desk combo.  Good function and space utilization, lots of storage.   Buyers liked the design and we ended up doing a half dozen of them.  However, nice as they were, there was pretty much an upper limit of around 3.5MB for View Talay studios at that time.  We would have liked to have earned more but we were about at the ceiling.  They did sell quickly so that was some consolation.