U.S. Topic -- IRS filing deadlines and extensions for expats

[Jingthing]

OK, bear with me if I've got anything wrong.

 

My understanding --

 

All Americans get a Coronavirus extension until July 15 this so year, so filing isn't due for anyone April 15, Does that include expats?

 

Expats always get an automatic extension until June 15, this includes not needing to pay any taxes due until then

 

I assume all Americans if they haven't filed by July 15 this year can apply for extension until October and that extension request would be needed by July 15 this year instead of April 15. Expats as well?

 

Normally I've applied for an extension until October 15 by April 15 for FILING, but I'm confused about the details this year with the change for everyone.

 

 

[taxout]

If you have a US bank account and need an extension beyond June 15, the easiest way to get it is to make a payment of estimated tax online using IRS Direct Pay. Just make sure you select "Extension" as the Reason for Payment on the first page, and your payment will automatically be applied to Form 4868, the request for an extension until October 15. You don't need to actually file Form 4868 and request an extension: making a payment using Direct Pay and applying it to "Extension" is sufficient.

 

If you don't expect to owe any additional tax for 2019, you can simply make a small payment of $1.

 

http://www.irs.gov/payments/direct-pay

 

 

[Pib]

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/filing-and-payment-deadlines-questions-and-answers

[Jingthing]

Thanks for all that.

But given that expats already get an extension until June 15, is it fair to assume that expats are also included in the general extension until July 15?

 

I normally apply for an extension on taxact but it's not super intuitive to do that. But I guess I wouldn't have to bother and try to file by July 15 if expats are included and then apply for an extension later to October 15 if needed.

 

I don't owe any taxes.

[jjczap]

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/sm948

[Jingthing]

10 minutes ago, jjczap said:

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/sm948

Wow!

Now I'm really confused!
Your link says the FILING deadline is still April 15.

Pib's link indicated it was now July 15 with extending possible by July 15 to April.

So if you're link is true expats get the automatic expat extension to June 15 but must file for an extension by April 15 if they want to extends to October 15.

Clear as mud.

 

Yes of course filing deadline and paying deadline may be different, depending.

 

But really asking here about FILING deadlines. 

 

Quote

This guidance does not change the April 15 filing deadline

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Jingthing

[jjczap]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Thanks for all that.

But given that expats already get an extension until June 15, is it fair to assume that expats are also included in the general extension until July 15?

 

I normally apply for an extension on taxact but it's not super intuitive to do that. But I guess I wouldn't have to bother and try to file by July 15 if expats are included and then apply for an extension later to October 15 if needed.

 

I don't owe any taxes.

if you don't owe any taxes   why would you even have discussions on extension  just file it get it over with and erase one more thing from your mind

[Mulambana]

14 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Expats always get an automatic extension until June 15, this includes not needing to pay any taxes due until then

How do you become an expat for tax purporses? DO you have to form any form to declare that you're ian expat. Can you still keep a US address after becoming an expat?

[Pib]

1 minute ago, Mulambana said:

How do you become an expat for tax purporses? DO you have to form any form to declare that you're ian expat. Can you still keep a US address after becoming an expat?

As a US citizen you are never an expat for "tax purposes"....you are taxed on worldwide income.

[timendres]

Just now, Mulambana said:

How do you become an expat for tax purporses? DO you have to form any form to declare that you're ian expat. Can you still keep a US address after becoming an expat?

Your expat status depends on the number of days you reside within the United States. I forget the number at the moment, but if you are not in the United States for more than those number of days, then you are, by definition, an expat for many "legal" government purposes (like taxes, mandatory health insurance, etc.). There is no form, that I know of, for "declaring" expat status. I am an expat, according to the definition stated above, and am treated as such for tax purposes, but I also have a house in the US.

[Pib]

Yeap...the US tax system is a worldwide tax system vs a territorial system like most countries have.  Although there is a foreign income exemption up to a certain amount for foreign earned income/wages you still file a US tax return to claim that.  For a US person, even if you move to Pluto you are still subject to the US federal tax system.  Now, for state taxes that is something you can get out of my clearly establishing a foreign residence and abandoning your old state residence.

[jjczap]

36 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Wow!

Now I'm really confused!
Your link says the FILING deadline is still April 15.

Pib's link indicated it was now July 15 with extending possible by July 15 to April.

So if you're link is true expats get the automatic expat extension to June 15 but must file for an extension by April 15 if they want to extends to October 15.

Clear as mud.

 

Yes of course filing deadline and paying deadline may be different, depending.

 

But really asking here about FILING deadlines. 

 

 

its not my content  it is a press release from treasury/irs     its their words  interpret as you may

[Pib]

59 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Wow!

Now I'm really confused!
Your link says the FILING deadline is still April 15.

Pib's link indicated it was now July 15 with extending possible by July 15 to April.

So if you're link is true expats get the automatic expat extension to June 15 but must file for an extension by April 15 if they want to extends to October 15.

Clear as mud.

 

Yes of course filing deadline and paying deadline may be different, depending.

 

But really asking here about FILING deadlines. 

 

 

That 18 March news release jjczap was based on mid March guidance which was later changed/updated.  See this 9 Apr new release.

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/sm970

 

Also see this Turbotax overview of various filing/extension dates

https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/tax-planning-and-checklists/important-tax-deadlines-dates/L7Rn92V1d

[Jingthing]

 

1 hour ago, Mulambana said:

How do you become an expat for tax purporses? DO you have to form any form to declare that you're ian expat. Can you still keep a US address after becoming an expat?

You can do what you want but what I did is file every year with my Thai address and divorce myself from my last state by filing a partial year state return the year I left. That's convincing.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, jjczap said:

if you don't owe any taxes   why would you even have discussions on extension  just file it get it over with and erase one more thing from your mind

This isn't about why or why not morality advice. It's about finding out the actual deadline dates for expats. Just the facts.

[Jingthing]

47 minutes ago, jjczap said:

its not my content  it is a press release from treasury/irs     its their words  interpret as you may

Yes I understand and it seemed to conflict with other information.

[Jingthing]

27 minutes ago, Pib said:

That 18 March news release jjczap was based on mid March guidance which was later changed/updated.  See this 9 Apr new release.

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/sm970

 

Also see this Turbotax overview of various filing/extension dates

https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/tax-planning-and-checklists/important-tax-deadlines-dates/L7Rn92V1d

Thanks a bunch of bananas.

The way I'm reading that related to my specific questions is that everyone, expats included, do not need to FILE or pay taxes before July 15. Also everyone and expats can if you choose file for an extension by July 15 (instead of April 15) which will give until October 15.

 

The traditional expat extension of June 15 is not as good as the extension until July 15 for everyone so it seems to become a moot point. 

[Langsuan Man]

Why does everyone try and make this complicated !  

 

Yes, as an expat (being out of the US at tax time) you can get an automatic extension, BUT, that extension does not exempt you from paying your taxes due on April 15th, and your extension does not exempts you from penalties and interest.

(source: https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/understanding-penalties-and-interest)

 

And of course if you are owed money then you would be foolish to take that extension

 

The difference this year ONLY, is that the official filing date is no longer April 15th but July 15th and more importantly even if you owe the IRS you do not have to pay them until July 15th.  This also means that if you end up having to pay estimated taxes for tax year 2020 your estimated payments also start on July 15th, not April 15th  

[MMan]

14 hours ago, Langsuan Man said:

Why does everyone try and make this complicated !  

 

Yes, as an expat (being out of the US at tax time) you can get an automatic extension, BUT, that extension does not exempt you from paying your taxes due on April 15th, and your extension does not exempts you from penalties and interest.

(source: https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/understanding-penalties-and-interest)

 

And of course if you are owed money then you would be foolish to take that extension

 

The difference this year ONLY, is that the official filing date is no longer April 15th but July 15th and more importantly even if you owe the IRS you do not have to pay them until July 15th.  This also means that if you end up having to pay estimated taxes for tax year 2020 your estimated payments also start on July 15th, not April 15th  

Langsuan Man's above comments are by far the most accurate and factual post in this entire thread (I'm not a tax expert though I am a CPA and know quite a bit about IRS rules).

By the way, there is currently NO outgoing Express Mail or Air Mail service in Thailand via Thai Post (Thai Post is offering ground delivery only for now).  Private courier services like DHL, FedEx, etc. might still be an option though I'm not sure.  You can still file online of course.

Edited April 15, 2020 by MMan

[taxout]

"Yes, as an expat (being out of the US at tax time) you can get an automatic extension."

 

No, simply being out of the U.S. at filing time doesn't do the job.

 

According to the IRS, you can qualify for the automatic two-month extension if:

 

"-- You are living outside of the United States and Puerto Rico and your main place of business or post of duty is outside the United States and Puerto Rico, or
 -- You are in military or naval service on duty outside the United States and Puerto Rico."

 

https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/us-citizens-and-resident-aliens-abroad-automatic-2-month-extension-of-time-to-file

 

Whether retirees can meet that test is an interesting question. To avoid any possible problems with the IRS, I never rely on the automatic extension.

 

(Of course we're talking about the general rule here; this year is a special case.)

[Jingthing]

15 hours ago, Langsuan Man said:

Why does everyone try and make this complicated !  

 

Yes, as an expat (being out of the US at tax time) you can get an automatic extension, BUT, that extension does not exempt you from paying your taxes due on April 15th, and your extension does not exempts you from penalties and interest.

(source: https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/understanding-penalties-and-interest)

 

And of course if you are owed money then you would be foolish to take that extension

 

The difference this year ONLY, is that the official filing date is no longer April 15th but July 15th and more importantly even if you owe the IRS you do not have to pay them until July 15th.  This also means that if you end up having to pay estimated taxes for tax year 2020 your estimated payments also start on July 15th, not April 15th  

I think you are wrong about the June 15 expat extension. My understanding is that extension is for BOTH filing AND taxes and penalties. 

But this year not relevant.

 

 

[Jingthing]

A clear telling of the deadline situation for expats ONLY this year. I think this same conclusion has already been ferreted out here, but I still think this is worth posting. Thanks to a PM from a member for sharing this item.

 

 

 

Quote

 

Expats normally receive an automatic filing extension until June 15th, however this year expats have until July 15th to file after an automatic 90 day filing (and tax payment) extension was provided to all Americans as part of Coronavirus relief measures.

Expats who require further time to file can request an additional extension until October 15th, too

 

https://brighttax.com/blog/coronavirus-relief-cares-expats-get-stimulus-check/