Dilemma To Move Back To The West Or Not

[Sakeopete]

I have a bit of a dilemma, to move back to Canada or stay in Thailand. I have been here over 5 years enjoying it with my wife and kids. However I worry about our kid’s future. It is obvious from comments on this forum and the media that Thailand’s public education is rubbish but I can’t afford 1 million Baht/year to send the kids to private school. Two of our kids are full Thai but the youngest 16 months old is Luekrung and looks 100 % European ATM. From what I gather he will have a difficult time in Thailand getting any jobs unless he is very talented and can become a superstar entertainer.

Reading forums and talking with Thais who have lived in the west makes me worry about my family’s happiness. It is apparently not easy for Thais to live outside of Thailand. Many of the couples we have met have split after living in the husband’s home country or moved back.

There are many of you facing the same dilemma I’m sure. Any comments on how you plan on dealing with it would be appreciated.

Thanks in Advance.

[stoneman]

We have been living in BKK for 6 years and we're facing a similar problem. We have a 3 1/2 year old son and even the private schools here are not up to the standards of the parochial(Jesuit) schools in the US.

We have been traveling to the US every year and staying about 2 months. My wife has gotten very accustomed to the surroundings and feels very comfortable there.

So our plan is to live in the US during the school year and then return to our home here in Thailand during the summer vacation. And if the wife gets very lonely for real som tam, she can fly over for a month or so and see her friends and family.

Seems like a solution that will work well for us.

[sonicdragon]

.....and even the private schools here are not up to the standards of the parochial(Jesuit) schools in the US.

I'm curious to know if, by that you are referring to religious education standards, or standards in general ?

My own (limited) research has found that the academic standards are very high in the top international schools here. But we don't have any interest in religious education - I am more concerned with general teaching within the IB framework and also with languages. Equivalent fee paying schools in my home country (UK) would be more expensive than the top schools here.

To Sakeopete, I don't know anything about schools in Canada, but for me if it were a choice between a lower-end international school in thailand and a state (non fee paying) school back home I would definitely choose thailand. UK state schools are an abomination. Of course there are great public (fee paying) schools in the UK but they are expensive, and then we would loose the life in Thailand that we love and a multi-lingual education woulsd be out of the question. We plan to have the children in trilingual international school in thailand and for the family to visit the UK each year in the summer holidays for a couple of months and maybe christmas (I have never got used to christmas in asia and I miss the UK christmas which has fond memories for me and which I would like my children to experience).

Again, to Sakeopete, how old are the 2 thai kids ? You obviously have to consider the effect on them of uprooting them and moving to canada if they are at a sensitive ages and/or have been only in the thai school system so far.

I've come accross one "semi-international" school that has very reasonable fees and quite nice facilities - Nantawan Thawipas School at srinakarin/theparak - and it's very easy to get to from southern or eastern bangkok.

[stoneman]

I have heard so many terrible stories about the private schools here in BKK. I have had several friends that have taught in the best rated schools and they have told many stories about the discipline problems and how difficult it is to teach with many Thai students from the rich Thai families. Many of these kids are not interested in learning and are there because their parents want them there.

The public school systems in the US vary from state to state, city to city and even vary a great deal within the cities.

I am a product of the public school system in the US, but my sons from my previous life were educated in Catholic schools. Not for the religious aspects but for the education opportunities they create. There are many advantages to be gained from the parochial system. Both of my sons went on to graduate college, one from Purdue University and one from New York University.

So I know what is successful in the US and I want the same for my 3 1/2 year old son. I plan to follow the same path for him...But sure wish he would decide to go to Oklahoma University...my alma mater...

[Sakeopete]

.....and even the private schools here are not up to the standards of the parochial(Jesuit) schools in the US.

I'm curious to know if, by that you are referring to religious education standards, or standards in general ?

My own (limited) research has found that the academic standards are very high in the top international schools here. But we don't have any interest in religious education - I am more concerned with general teaching within the IB framework and also with languages. Equivalent fee paying schools in my home country (UK) would be more expensive than the top schools here.

To Sakeopete, I don't know anything about schools in Canada, but for me if it were a choice between a lower-end international school in thailand and a state (non fee paying) school back home I would definitely choose thailand. UK state schools are an abomination. Of course there are great public (fee paying) schools in the UK but they are expensive, and then we would loose the life in Thailand that we love and a multi-lingual education woulsd be out of the question. We plan to have the children in trilingual international school in thailand and for the family to visit the UK each year in the summer holidays for a couple of months and maybe christmas (I have never got used to christmas in asia and I miss the UK christmas which has fond memories for me and which I would like my children to experience).

Again, to Sakeopete, how old are the 2 thai kids ? You obviously have to consider the effect on them of uprooting them and moving to canada if they are at a sensitive ages and/or have been only in the thai school system so far.

I've come accross one "semi-international" school that has very reasonable fees and quite nice facilities - Nantawan Thawipas School at srinakarin/theparak - and it's very easy to get to from southern or eastern bangkok.

The boys are 6 and 12 and I fear with their limited english and being obviously a minority they will be bullied as kids do and have few friends. Canadians are not generally racist in my home town but kids can be cruel to outsiders. The schools in Canada were good when I was there 6 years ago but things may have changed. However the worst schools in Canada are still a hundred times better than Thai schools IMHO. At least students are encouraged to ask questions and teachers are actualy qualified to answer them.

[sonicdragon]

I have heard so many terrible stories about the private schools here in BKK. I have had several friends that have taught in the best rated schools and they have told many stories about the discipline problems and how difficult it is to teach with many Thai students from the rich Thai families. Many of these kids are not interested in learning and are there because their parents want them there.

The public school systems in the US vary from state to state, city to city and even vary a great deal within the cities.

I am a product of the public school system in the US, but my sons from my previous life were educated in Catholic schools. Not for the religious aspects but for the education opportunities they create. There are many advantages to be gained from the parochial system. Both of my sons went on to graduate college, one from Purdue University and one from New York University.

So I know what is successful in the US and I want the same for my 3 1/2 year old son. I plan to follow the same path for him...But sure wish he would decide to go to Oklahoma University...my alma mater...

Not wanting to start an argument at all, and I don't doubt that there are some bad private schools, and bad influences in perhaps all schools in thailand, but the university entrance statistics for some of the schools I looked at were very good - comparable with some of the best fee paying schools in the UK.

[sonicdragon]

The boys are 6 and 12 and I fear with their limited english and being obviously a minority they will be bullied as kids do and have few friends. Canadians are not generally racist in my home town but kids can be cruel to outsiders. The schools in Canada were good when I was there 6 years ago but things may have changed. However the worst schools in Canada are still a hundred times better than Thai schools IMHO. At least students are encouraged to ask questions and teachers are actualy qualified to answer them.

I would have thought that uprooting the 12 year old could entail some significant problems unless you do very soon. Even at 12 it won't be easy for him.

Concordian and Bangkok Patana both make a point in their mission statments of developing inquiring minds, and the teachers there are well qualified, and the facilities excellent. I can't comment on most other schools of course.

[jasreeve17]

The boys are 6 and 12 and I fear with their limited english and being obviously a minority they will be bullied as kids do and have few friends. Canadians are not generally racist in my home town but kids can be cruel to outsiders. The schools in Canada were good when I was there 6 years ago but things may have changed. However the worst schools in Canada are still a hundred times better than Thai schools IMHO. At least students are encouraged to ask questions and teachers are actualy qualified to answer them.

If I were you I'd move back.

Jumping forward 10 - 15 years the opportunities in life for your children will be many, many times greater than they would be had you stayed here.

It's simple and functional. Any arguments to stay here are romantic, ideological and false.

[jumnien]

"It's simple and functional. Any arguments to stay here are romantic, ideological and false."

Gee, what school provided you with than open mind of yours? Must of been one of those falang schools, eh? I shudder at the thought that my boy would grow up in such a closed minded environment.

[jasreeve17]

"It's simple and functional. Any arguments to stay here are romantic, ideological and false."

Gee, what school provided you with than open mind of yours? Must of been one of those falang schools, eh? I shudder at the thought that my boy would grow up in such a closed minded environment.

MDELand I went to Latymer Grammer School, London N9. You can look it up on the net if you wish to.

Have a nice day.

[mikethevigoman]

I have a bit of a dilemma, to move back to Canada or stay in Thailand. I have been here over 5 years enjoying it with my wife and kids. However I worry about our kid's future. It is obvious from comments on this forum and the media that Thailand's public education is rubbish but I can't afford 1 million Baht/year to send the kids to private school. Two of our kids are full Thai but the youngest 16 months old is Luekrung and looks 100 % European ATM. From what I gather he will have a difficult time in Thailand getting any jobs unless he is very talented and can become a superstar entertainer.

Reading forums and talking with Thais who have lived in the west makes me worry about my family's happiness. It is apparently not easy for Thais to live outside of Thailand. Many of the couples we have met have split after living in the husband's home country or moved back.

There are many of you facing the same dilemma I'm sure. Any comments on how you plan on dealing with it would be appreciated.

Thanks in Advance.

I sat in business on thai next to a thai lad of 17, he flies to london every monday ( to school ) and goes back to bkk on friday ,, ! wealthy parents or what ,..

[jetjock]

I have a bit of a dilemma, to move back to Canada or stay in Thailand. I have been here over 5 years enjoying it with my wife and kids. However I worry about our kid’s future. It is obvious from comments on this forum and the media that Thailand’s public education is rubbish but I can’t afford 1 million Baht/year to send the kids to private school. Two of our kids are full Thai but the youngest 16 months old is Luekrung and looks 100 % European ATM. From what I gather he will have a difficult time in Thailand getting any jobs unless he is very talented and can become a superstar entertainer.

Reading forums and talking with Thais who have lived in the west makes me worry about my family’s happiness. It is apparently not easy for Thais to live outside of Thailand. Many of the couples we have met have split after living in the husband’s home country or moved back.

There are many of you facing the same dilemma I’m sure. Any comments on how you plan on dealing with it would be appreciated.

Thanks in Advance.

If your statement that the"Thailand education is rubbish" implies that someone growing up in Thailand cannot get as good primary and secondary education as they do in western countries, I think you may be misinformed. I think if you did some research you would find that there are many good public schools in Thailand just as there are in the US (cannot speak with regards to other countries). I think that you might even discover that some of the basics such as reading, writing and arithmetic are even better in Thailand than in the US. It may be true however that their access to computers may be more limited than western countries due to cost factor. The fact is that we have some students that I would consider to be illiterate graduating from some of our public schools here in the US.

The fact is that there are many extremely bright students graduating from public high schools in Thailand and going on to advanced degrees at the top universities in Thailand and other parts of the world. I think more importantly, it is what happens in the home that plays a major role on whether someone is motivated and gets a good primary and secondary education. Perhaps it is much like everything else in that you 'get out of it what you put into it'.

I would agree that once you are through with your schooling, the job opportunities are usually much better outside Thailand

Edited April 14, 2007 by jetjock

[LaoPo]

It is apparently not easy for Thais to live outside of Thailand.

Many of the couples we have met have split after living in the husband’s home country or moved back.

1. How many Thai or any other foreigners you think live happily in another country ?

2. about 'splitting couples': there are many more who are happy together -in another country- than split couples ! The difference is you never hear them....

LaoPo

[sonicdragon]

I sat in business on thai next to a thai lad of 17, he flies to london every monday ( to school ) and goes back to bkk on friday ,, ! wealthy parents or what ,..

If true, which I highly doubt, I would wager that their wealth is only eclipsed by their stupidity.

Edited April 15, 2007 by sonicdragon

[samran]

I sat in business on thai next to a thai lad of 17, he flies to london every monday ( to school ) and goes back to bkk on friday ,, ! wealthy parents or what ,..

If true, which I highly doubt, I would wager that their wealth is only eclipsed by their stupidity.

13 hours each way and getting to/from the airport, even if you were flying first, it would be tiring to do each weekend!

But, if you've got the stamina, and the cash (and plenty have the latter), then why not...

[legaleagle]

Maybe the answer is to be sure your children study International Baccalaureate programs in Thailand. They are world-renowned for their rigour and would definitely allow your children to continue on at almost any western university.

[jasreeve17]

Maybe the answer is to be sure your children study International Baccalaureate programs in Thailand. They are world-renowned for their rigour and would definitely allow your children to continue on at almost any western university.

That's ok if you're a rich Thai. If you are not then your future would be many times brighter to live and study in the West.

[sonicdragon]

I sat in business on thai next to a thai lad of 17, he flies to london every monday ( to school ) and goes back to bkk on friday ,, ! wealthy parents or what ,..

If true, which I highly doubt, I would wager that their wealth is only eclipsed by their stupidity.

13 hours each way and getting to/from the airport, even if you were flying first, it would be tiring to do each weekend!

But, if you've got the stamina, and the cash (and plenty have the latter), then why not...

Why not ? Really ?

[JimmyTheMook]

I have a bit of a dilemma, to move back to Canada or stay in Thailand. I have been here over 5 years enjoying it with my wife and kids. However I worry about our kid's future. It is obvious from comments on this forum and the media that Thailand's public education is rubbish but I can't afford 1 million Baht/year to send the kids to private school. Two of our kids are full Thai but the youngest 16 months old is Luekrung and looks 100 % European ATM. From what I gather he will have a difficult time in Thailand getting any jobs unless he is very talented and can become a superstar entertainer.

Reading forums and talking with Thais who have lived in the west makes me worry about my family's happiness. It is apparently not easy for Thais to live outside of Thailand. Many of the couples we have met have split after living in the husband's home country or moved back.

There are many of you facing the same dilemma I'm sure. Any comments on how you plan on dealing with it would be appreciated.

Thanks in Advance.

I am in the same boat with my kids , they are young enough to return to the west and get into the school system there.

My feelings are it is a different generation so the future will be very different for them, but my gut feeling is that a western education in a more modern enviroment is better for kids.

This is my hardest choice about living in Thailand.

[samran]

Why not ? Really ?

Probably not for myself Sonic, but while I'd say it was impractical to do it weekly, I'd dare say there are enough rich Thai's there who wouldn't blink at bringing their kids back at least once a month if thats what they wanted. Some Thai families are like that, and they like to have their kids a close as possible.

I actually met a London educated Thai girl last week who would think nothing of going to London regularly for a weekend, business class. Her family are loaded. In an old job (cause they paid), I and many others used to do the 5-6 hour door to door to spend the weekend in my home city and our work city. Racked up a lot of FF miles that way. Company paid of course.

A Thai friend of the family was educated in the UK about 50 years ago, spent her formative years in Kensington. She did the same with her kids, secondary school and university in the UK. When I was in London I met up with her as the next generation were being prepped for life outside of Thailand....in Kensington.

Anyway, back on topic.

I'd think if the OP were going to go now, then the older kids are in what I call a 'sweet spot'. You go back to Canada, and they will really have the best of both worlds. Old enough not to forget their roots and language, young enough to blend right in and pick up English/French in Canada with no worries whatsoever and they'll fit in fine. The oldest one may or may not need ESL support on arrival, it will just depend. Summer holidays back in Thailand to touch base and for Thailand to remain relevant to them. Many of my relatives have done it that way, primary school in Thailand and secondary school in the west. They are the ones who really have the options in doing well either in Thailand or the west.

We will have the same 'problem' in a few years. For me though, it is a cultural/attitiude thing and I want them to have some stability and be a little more broad minded by having a good Thai/Australian/UK (perhaps) balance.

I think (as my wife is a teacher) that all of the top tier int'l schools have their pro's and cons's, but all of them are comparable in terms of standards to the west (though not value for money). Although we love it here, and both of us earn good money (and int'l schools usually give free education to children of teachers), we are going to have to bite the bullet and go back to the antipodes for secondary school.

It will give them a consistent set of friends (expat kids tend to come and go) and the our child won't have to worry about keeping up with the jones (x 10) which tends to happen at international schools with lots of cashed up Thai's or at your Mater Dei's and other convent schools. They'll hopefully be more independent minded, and learn to fend for themselves as they get older. When they are 18, given they'll have mutiple passports, they will be able to choose what is best for themselves after that.

[Sakeopete]

Thanks for everyone’s input I appreciate it and agree with most of it. I was taking a different approach today by writing reasons to stay and reasons to go. I'm not going to write them here but there were very few reasons to stay on my list - weather, food, lower costs and wife’s family. However reasons to go were plentiful as most of you from the west already know. From what I can tell arriving over 5 years ago things have not gotten better for Thailand quite the opposite. The longer we stay the more difficult it will be to go IMHO but at the end of the day it is not only my decision.

[matcube]

I second Samran reply. And in fact, what a coincidence I am reading this topic just the night before our move back to the west, 80% of the reason being our 3 kids future (4, 2, and newborn). Yes, our move may even be too early, but there are other reasons as well that made the decision become real now as opposed to in 2-3 years, when it would have made more sense.

matcube.

[endure]

"It's simple and functional. Any arguments to stay here are romantic, ideological and false."

Gee, what school provided you with than open mind of yours? Must of been one of those falang schools, eh? I shudder at the thought that my boy would grow up in such a closed minded environment.

MDELand I went to Latymer Grammer School, London N9. You can look it up on the net if you wish to.

I did. It said:

"Did you mean: Latymer Grammar School "

[jasreeve17]

"It's simple and functional. Any arguments to stay here are romantic, ideological and false."

Gee, what school provided you with than open mind of yours? Must of been one of those falang schools, eh? I shudder at the thought that my boy would grow up in such a closed minded environment.

MDELand I went to Latymer Grammer School, London N9. You can look it up on the net if you wish to.

I did. It said:

"Did you mean: Latymer Grammar School "

Spelling and grammar mistake "pick-ups" are pointless, and very drole.

However, in this case, quite appropriate. Well spotted Endure...

(Do you think that I should give up my job at Chula, teaching English Grammer?)

Edited April 15, 2007 by jasreeve17

[qualtrough]

I did. It said:

"Did you mean: Latymer Grammar School "

:D

[endure]

"It's simple and functional. Any arguments to stay here are romantic, ideological and false."

Gee, what school provided you with than open mind of yours? Must of been one of those falang schools, eh? I shudder at the thought that my boy would grow up in such a closed minded environment.

MDELand I went to Latymer Grammer School, London N9. You can look it up on the net if you wish to.

I did. It said:

"Did you mean: Latymer Grammar School "

Spelling and grammar mistake "pick-ups" are pointless, and very drole.

However, in this case, quite appropriate. Well spotted Endure...

(Do you think that I should give up my job at Chula, teaching English Grammer?)

No, you carry on. English Grammer was one of the few things I was any good at when I went to Grammer school

BTW I hate to sound like a smartarse but it's 'droll'.

[jasreeve17]

"It's simple and functional. Any arguments to stay here are romantic, ideological and false."

Gee, what school provided you with than open mind of yours? Must of been one of those falang schools, eh? I shudder at the thought that my boy would grow up in such a closed minded environment.

MDELand I went to Latymer Grammer School, London N9. You can look it up on the net if you wish to.

I did. It said:

"Did you mean: Latymer Grammar School "

Spelling and grammar mistake "pick-ups" are pointless, and very drole.

However, in this case, quite appropriate. Well spotted Endure...

(Do you think that I should give up my job at Chula, teaching English Grammer?)

No, you carry on. English Grammer was one of the few things I was any good at when I went to Grammer school

BTW I hate to sound like a smartarse but it's 'droll'.

Not a smartarse at all. It sounded like a French word, and I did a general French style spelling. I checked out the word, and you're right. I'm a bit surprised by the word and the route, but I learnt something - thank you.

(I've always been <deleted> at spelling. I went to a good school, past my English O'level two years early, which did my no good at all. Then I went into the business World with Microsoft word...)

[endure]

"It's simple and functional. Any arguments to stay here are romantic, ideological and false."

Gee, what school provided you with than open mind of yours? Must of been one of those falang schools, eh? I shudder at the thought that my boy would grow up in such a closed minded environment.

MDELand I went to Latymer Grammer School, London N9. You can look it up on the net if you wish to.

I did. It said:

"Did you mean: Latymer Grammar School "

Spelling and grammar mistake "pick-ups" are pointless, and very drole.

However, in this case, quite appropriate. Well spotted Endure...

(Do you think that I should give up my job at Chula, teaching English Grammer?)

No, you carry on. English Grammer was one of the few things I was any good at when I went to Grammer school

BTW I hate to sound like a smartarse but it's 'droll'.

Not a smartarse at all. It sounded like a French word, and I did a general French style spelling. I checked out the word, and you're right. I'm a bit surprised by the word and the route, but I learnt something - thank you.

(I've always been <deleted> at spelling. I went to a good school, past my English O'level two years early, which did my no good at all. Then I went into the business World with Microsoft word...)

Was that in the days when English 'O' level was split into grammar and literature? I loved grammar and passed with flying colours but I hated Lit. and didn't bother taking it. It meant reading too many books

[legaleagle]

At the risk of piling on, I would also have to say that jasreeve's response to my IB advice was also totally off base. I guess today's lesson is "teaching English grammer at Chula does not an expert make".

I would repeat my advice to the OP that an IB grad from Asia, no matter the passport, will be on par with the best in the US, and better than most public (taxpayer supported) high school grads. It might even be worth considering remaining offshore and doing the IB, if the other option was to go public.

[aqua4]

I sit in the same boat as the OP. Now that the wife has completed university we have to move along this year. It was not an easy choice and I had to make a list as to the pro's and con's of both sides. Thailand does have lots of pro's but also a lot of con's. I do like the weather, safety, lower cost of living however this tends to get balanced off against visa instability, raising a Luekrung in Thailand and a few others which makes the future a bit unstable with a small child.

Education in Thailand comes at a price like everything else. It is not the quality of the paper at the end of the day to me but the ability to foster independent thought within an educational setting. It is that quality which will be used most as an adult. There I have not seen much and I don't think that a million baht a year is in my budget to send the kid to Harrows or equivalent.

Even when the kid is an adult I don't see much future as even with my wife working in Bangkok with a western surname it does at times make life difficult. They not Thai to the locals and they are not Western either. They tend to end up in a no mans land of discrimination.

I thought that it would be best to move along in due course.