Pressure Mounts To Make Buddhism State Religion

[jdinasia]

I don't think that Buddhism is an issue in the South ... but I can't make claims to have been involved with the insurgencies there or anywhere

Tettytan ... we finally agree on something ... The folks involved in the PLU want their OWN space ... we also agree that centralisation is a huge factor in the problem. <I hold out some hope that a limited autonomy situation will eventually work itself out there!>

[ColPyat]

I don't think that Buddhism is an issue in the South ... but I can't make claims to have been involved with the insurgencies there or anywhere

Good that you don't make claims about that area, as you said - you haven't been there. I have, and will be there soon again.

Yes - it is an issue down there - a large one. Most officers, including rank of Pan Eek, Pon Tree and Pon Tho, i have spoken with were very clear on that issue: the said this is not going to happen.

Only problem is that we don't know how our Pon Eeks and above in Bangkok decide on that issue.

[tettyan]

wouldn't it be less prone to corruption if murky govt.-sangha-power relationships were made legal and transparent? Inclusion in the contstitution will force the CHANGE in this lamentable status quo rather than preserve it under "let's not talk about it" guise.

Possibly, but I really doubt it. This is Thailand we're talking about. Once special status for Buddhism is entrenched in the Constitution, what incentive do they really have to be more transparent? (the same could be asked for most political/legal institutions in Thailand)

Same goes for southern insurgency - does anyone think that not including Buddhism in constitution will fool the insurgents into thinking that Thailand is not a de-facto Buddhist state? More likely they'd just call Thais cowards who are afraid to admit the obvious even to themselves.

No. I think it will confirm what they've been arguing all along - that Thailand is not a welcome home, never was, and now for sure, never will be. As Chownah alluded to, I think the insurgents would be extremely delighted for this push to succeed. This will help them in their propaganda war to convice the local population not to support the Thai gov't. Getting the local people's cooperation is crucial in this campaign down there - a shortage of intelligence and informants is really hampering the Thai forces' operations. This move may discourage those to cooperate with a state they were at best indifferent to in the first place.

[tettyan]

That was one of the first questions I posted in this thread - if the King is the protector of Buddhism, why the government (legally) is not?

It is true that this area of law is somewhat ambiguous.

What I propose is the Japanese solution. In Japan, the Empreror is the highest figure in Shinto, but Japan has an American-style constitution that requires separation of church in state. Thus, in theory, the Emperor's role as the highest figure in Shinto exists only in his private (personal) capacity, not in his official (public) capacity.

The King should be able to exercise his role as patron of Buddhism only on the advice of the Sangha council, which should operate completely independently of the gov't, subject to neutral and generally applicable laws that govern all religions.

Edited May 28, 2007 by tettyan

[jdinasia]

Sorry ColPyat ... don't put words in my mouth ie: 'you haven't been there" because that would make you a liar

[rychrde]

That was one of the first questions I posted in this thread - if the King is the protector of Buddhism, why the government (legally) is not?

It is true that this area of law is somewhat ambiguous.

I thought the draft constitution says the king is protector of faiths - in the plural.

I'll go check the link on the constitution thread

[chownah]

Hey!!! Why not make Buddhism AND Islaam BOTH national religions?....might throw in Christianity and Judaism too just for good measure.

[ColPyat]

Hey!!! Why not make Buddhism AND Islaam BOTH national religions?....might throw in Christianity and Judaism too just for good measure.

Problem though is that this is somewhat where we are though right now - one of the three pillars of how the Thai state defines itself is "Religion" - and it doesn't specify which one.

I doubt our nationalist Buddhists would be glad about all religions equally being "state religion" though...

[rychrde]

finally found the link. might be an idea to put this somewhere prominent or we will have lots of laughs mis-quoting it.

http://rspas.anu.edu.au/rmap/newmandala/wp...ion-english.pdf

unless there is already a newer version.

Anyway the text says

"Section 9: The King is a Buddhist and upholder of religions."

my italics. plural.

[Mid]

can't be diffucult .........................

Thailand is a Buddhist Nation which welcomes all religions with HM as Defender of the Faith.

[jdinasia]

finally found the link. might be an idea to put this somewhere prominent or we will have lots of laughs mis-quoting it.

http://rspas.anu.edu.au/rmap/newmandala/wp...ion-english.pdf

unless there is already a newer version.

Anyway the text says

"Section 9: The King is a Buddhist and upholder of religions."

my italics. plural.

from your link ........

Section 78: The state shall patronize and protect Buddhism and other religions,

promote good understanding and harmony among followers of all religions as well as

encourage the application of religious principles to promote virtues and develop quality

of life.

[Mid]

The Prime Minister answers to the question of how to apply Dharma with the party dissolution case, saying politics and religions are separated issues. He insists Thai people to look after themselves while studying Dharma and doing the right things.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 28 May 2007

from a Jai Dee post in another thread

just thought it is worth putting on record here .

[tettyan]

Section 73: The state shall patronize and protect Buddhism and other religions,

promote good understanding and harmony among followers of all religions as well as

encourage the application of religious principles to promote virtues and develop quality

of life.

I don't know about you, but to me, that provision from the 1997 Charter (while I may quarrel personally with the wording a bit) sounds a heck of a lot more inclusive than a declaration that "Buddhism is the state religion of Thailand."

While Buddhism is specified, it's also mentioned along with "other religions". This would seem to establish that in principle, at least, all religions are equal73 - or at least, that Buddhism is primus inter pares (highest among equals) and not non plus ultra (above all else). Elevating Buddhism to the status of state religion in the constitution, on the other hand, does violence to this inclusive principle of equality among religions.

While I have a few quarrels with the 1997 Charter, I think it's the least bad constitution Thailand's ever had (certainly better than the rag that's being drafted now), and I think this clause might be well worth keeping intact.

[note: you (or the site you copied this from) made a mistake, this is actually Section 73, I've corrected it above]

Edited May 29, 2007 by tettyan

[jdinasia]

Section 73: The state shall patronize and protect Buddhism and other religions,

promote good understanding and harmony among followers of all religions as well as

encourage the application of religious principles to promote virtues and develop quality

of life.

I don't know about you, but to me, that provision from the 1997 Charter (while I may quarrel personally with the wording a bit) sounds a heck of a lot more inclusive than a declaration that "Buddhism is the state religion of Thailand."

While Buddhism is specified, it's also mentioned along with "other religions". This would seem to establish that in principle, at least, all religions are equal73 - or at least, that Buddhism is primus inter pares (highest among equals) and not non plus ultra (above all else). Elevating Buddhism to the status of state religion in the constitution, on the other hand, does violence to this inclusive principle of equality among religions.

While I have a few quarrels with the 1997 Charter, I think it's the least bad constitution Thailand's ever had (certainly better than the rag that's being drafted now), and I think this clause might be well worth keeping intact.

[note: you (or the site you copied this from) made a mistake, this is actually Section 73, I've corrected it above]

I believe that is from a link to the charter draft

[Jai Dee]

Buddhist leaders agree to promote Buddhism worldwide

At the 4th United Nations Vesak Celebration 2007 in Buddhamonthon on May 26th, Buddhist leaders worldwide have agreed to jointly publicize Buddhism to other countries around the world, with an aim to increase the number of Buddhist followers.

Currently, there are more than 400 million Buddhists in the world, and many of them are from China and India. Thus, Buddhist leaders at the conference have supported the idea to promote Buddhism to people in other countries.

A Buddhist leader from Cambodia says Cambodia has long been considered a Buddhist country. In the past, Cambodia was ruled by a dictatorial regime and the advancement of Buddhism was hampered. However, the country was able to recover and has been continuously promoting the religion nationwide.

The Cambodian monk also sees technology as a helpful tool for exposing Buddhism to different countries. In addition, technology can help manage education in Buddhist universities.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 29 May 2007

[Jai Dee]

UN Secretary-General says Buddhism can bring long-term peace and global stability

United Nations (UN) Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon delivered a message on the occasion of the Day of Vesak, saying this opportunity allows the followers of Lord Buddha to reaffirm their dedication to the ideals of Buddhism. They will also have the opportunity to underscore the principles of compassion, understanding and peace preached by the Lord Buddha. He said the Lord Buddha’s teachings have continued to guide and give meaning to the lives of millions of people worldwide since over 2,500 years ago.

The UN Secretary-General said this celebration is timely because it can reduce the growing gulf between communities and nations created by certain events of recent years. These events have led to a worrying rise in intolerance and cross-cultural tensions, and reversing these trends has become vital to long-term peace and stability in the world.

He asked the participants to be considerate of their words and actions as they can affect the people around them and to look beyond their narrow short-term self-interests. Furthermore, people must recognize their essential interdependence, and place the well-being of their communities and of all humanity on a par with their own.

Finally, the UN Secretary-General would like everyone, Buddhists and non-Buddhists alike, to resolve to deal with their fellow human beings graciously and objectively, without hatred or ill will.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 29 May 2007

[Jai Dee]

540,000 Indians have converted to Buddhism due to social equality and separation of good and evil

The Most Venerable Prof. Dr. Phra Dharmakosajarn, the Rector of Mahachulalongkornrajavidyalaya University, says on the celebration of Visakha Puja Day or the United Nations Day of Vesak that 540,000 Indians in Bombay have recently converted to Buddhism and most of them are people of Chandala caste.

The Chandala is a caste title reserved for a despised and enslaved group of indigenous people of India. Many people in India who have converted to Buddhism say they do not have to be categorized into social classes, but Buddhism separates goodness and evil.

Meanwhile, Vietnamese Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung has delivered a message, saying Vietnam would like to host the 5th United Nations Vesak Celebration. In addition, he says Vietnam will always respect the rights of the individual to enjoy freedom of religion, belief and worship, and is adamant that all favourable conditions must be created so all religions feel welcomed within the country.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 29 May 2007

[Plus]

wouldn't it be less prone to corruption if murky govt.-sangha-power relationships were made legal and transparent? Inclusion in the contstitution will force the CHANGE in this lamentable status quo rather than preserve it under "let's not talk about it" guise.

Possibly, but I really doubt it. This is Thailand we're talking about. Once special status for Buddhism is entrenched in the Constitution, what incentive do they really have to be more transparent? (the same could be asked for most political/legal institutions in Thailand)

Now it's a question of details and not the principle. This being Thailand, they can screw up anything regardless of what is written in the Constitution.

Once the status of Buddhism is defined in the constitution, naturally its relations with other religions should be defined, too. That means clarifying that "Buddhism is primus inter pares (highest among equals) and not non plus ultra (above all else)", and obligations of the state towards other religions, their rights etc. etc.

When all these issues are legally defined, it's not unimaginable that the govt could be held accountable for either abuse or neglect of its responsibilities and its policies.

I understand if the opponents argue that we have too much on our hands already, Buddhism is not really that high on the agenda, let's clarify all those issues later on.

Same goes for southern insurgency - does anyone think that not including Buddhism in constitution will fool the insurgents into thinking that Thailand is not a de-facto Buddhist state? More likely they'd just call Thais cowards who are afraid to admit the obvious even to themselves.

No. I think it will confirm what they've been arguing all along - that Thailand is not a welcome home, never was, and now for sure, never will be. As Chownah alluded to, I think the insurgents would be extremely delighted for this push to succeed. This will help them in their propaganda war to convice the local population not to support the Thai gov't. Getting the local people's cooperation is crucial in this campaign down there - a shortage of intelligence and informants is really hampering the Thai forces' operations. This move may discourage those to cooperate with a state they were at best indifferent to in the first place.

Again, it depends on how the rights of other religions are defined and protected and implemented in practice.

If Thais refuse to clarify them legally, or write on thing on paper and practice another in real life, it won't fool no one.

[Kaysfeld]

BANGKOK: -- A major group of Buddhists Monday vowed to submit 1 million signatures of believers in the faith to pressure the constitution drafters to have the next charter state that Buddhism in Thailand's national religion.

I have never understood why so many of the so-called believers in the faith find it so hard to follow the basic 5 commandments of the Buddhist faith. They listen to the Phra teaching what not to do, and then they go out and do what the Phra just told them not to do, and they don't seem to see their own mistakes, only others.

I wonder how many real followers of the Buddhist faith there are in Thailand, someone that not only follow the ceremonies, but also follow the teaching. Sometime I feel that many Buddhist Farangs are more Buddhist than any Thai.

[tettyan]

When all these issues are legally defined, it's not unimaginable that the govt could be held accountable for either abuse or neglect of its responsibilities and its policies.

....

Again, it depends on how the rights of other religions are defined and protected and implemented in practice.

If Thais refuse to clarify them legally, or write on thing on paper and practice another in real life, it won't fool no one.

If the drafters give into what the protestors want, there's little room for nuance that you suggest is possible. Substantively, I also disagree as to whether it gives the gov't any more incentive to be accountable. In fact, it opens up a whole new can of worms. Could fundamentalists use the provision in court to argue that the gov't is obliged pursue social policies in line with "Buddhist values," e.g., banning alcohol? That may seem like a silly question today, but then again, when the drafters of the US Constitution inserted the "due process" clause, could they imagine that the Supreme Court 200 years later would find the right to "due process" to include a constitutional right to an abortion?

A constitution exists to constrain legislators - there are just some things that are so important to a system of democratic government we don't want legislators to tinker with. As constitutions are very difficult to amend (in principle at least, though we know in Thailand a couple tanks will do the trick), once a provision is in there, it might as well bind the country and its elected governments for all time. It essentially is a transfer of power from elected representatives to the courts.

I understand if the opponents argue that we have too much on our hands already, Buddhism is not really that high on the agenda, let's clarify all those issues later on.

As I've alluded to here and elsewhere, I believe constitutions function best when they're as parsimonious as possible. They should only outline the basic democratic structure of government, and provide basic protections for fundamental, universally-accepted individual rights. To have a document that's flexible and adaptable with the times (and hopefully build up enough credibility to survive coups), and UNDERSTOOD by the people (probably the most important thing), it's got to be short and simple.

Therefore, I oppose the use of a constitution to advance social, economic, and cultural policies or agendas. That includes protections that some propose for consumer rights, gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender rights, disabled rights, age discrimination, right to health care, or state religions. While many of these proposals advance worthy causes, I believe it's best to recognize the limits of what a constitution can do and defer to the legislature of the day to fasion the appropriate solutions - so long as they don't trample on basic fundamental rights.

Edited May 29, 2007 by tettyan

[Dradam]

Thailand: Not in need of 'status crutch'

In the past, Buddhism was an inseparable part of Thai life, history and culture. Today, however, Thai people live a life that is increasingly separated from Buddhist teachings. The proof is in the sharp rise in crime, widespread corruption, domestic violence especially against women and children, proliferation of gambling, promiscuity and the unprecedented obsession with occult practices and talismans.

Occult Practices and talismans? Don't most Thai people associate those with the Buddhist religion?

Making Buddhism a national religion will not increase morality. It will simply fan the flames of oppression and discrimination. Will Thailand enforce a ban on alcohol and prostitution? I doubt it. They might forbid muslims from attending state schools however.

[tettyan]

Thailand: Not in need of 'status crutch'

In the past, Buddhism was an inseparable part of Thai life, history and culture. Today, however, Thai people live a life that is increasingly separated from Buddhist teachings. The proof is in the sharp rise in crime, widespread corruption, domestic violence especially against women and children, proliferation of gambling, promiscuity and the unprecedented obsession with occult practices and talismans.

All this BS about how "traditional" Thai culture and "Buddhist values" is being "corrupted" by "farang ways" seriously makes me dizzy.

In a strange way, though, it also reminds me of my (Thai) grandfather. He was a bit of a socialite himself, and was always known among his social circles as a very moral, upright man. He was fond of talking to us about the evils of crass materlialism and modern capitalism makes people miserable and destroys society. He emphasized the importance of a return to "Buddhist" values and detachment from the world.

Only problem was that may grandfather kept a very, dirty little secret with him for more than 60 years. Yes, he kept a mia noi. Not only did he keep a mia noi, but he fathered 3 children with her. While he was paying for chauffers to shuttle his legitimate children around town, he kept out of touch with his mia noi and her children for years, forcing the mia noi take odd jobs (washing clothes, knitting clothes, etc) to provide for his 3 illegitimate children. He never bothered to show up for the weddings for the illegitimate children.

All this happened 40-50 years ago - long before any of you had stepped foot in Thailand, or even heard of the country. I don't think "western values" had much to do with this flagrant violation of the principles of "traditional family values."

Society has never lived up to the expectations of high-minded moral principals that we love to expound. That's why we always feel the need to repeat them and emphasize them, until they almost become hollow. The whole notion that everything was better in "the good old days" is pure myth, made up by those who either have political agendas, are completely out of touch with social realities, or lack any sense of history.

Edited May 30, 2007 by tettyan

[sabaijai]

Thailand: Not in need of 'status crutch'

In the past, Buddhism was an inseparable part of Thai life, history and culture. Today, however, Thai people live a life that is increasingly separated from Buddhist teachings. The proof is in the sharp rise in crime, widespread corruption, domestic violence especially against women and children, proliferation of gambling, promiscuity and the unprecedented obsession with occult practices and talismans.

All this BS about how "traditional" Thai culture and "Buddhist values" is being "corrupted" by "farang ways" seriously makes me dizzy.

In a strange way, though, it also reminds me of my (Thai) grandfather. He was a bit of a socialite himself, and was always known among his social circles as a very moral, upright man. He was fond of talking to us about the evils of crass materlialism and modern capitalism makes people miserable and destroys society. He emphasized the importance of a return to "Buddhist" values and detachment from the world.

Only problem was that may grandfather kept a very, dirty little secret with him for more than 60 years. Yes, he kept a mia noi. Not only did he keep a mia noi, but he fathered 3 children with her. While he was paying for chauffers to shuttle his legitimate children around town, he kept out of touch with his mia noi and her children for years, forcing the mia noi take odd jobs (washing clothes, knitting clothes, etc) to provide for his 3 illegitimate children. He never bothered to show up for the weddings for the illegitimate children.

All this happened 40-50 years ago - long before any of you had stepped foot in Thailand, or even heard of the country. I don't think "western values" had much to do with this flagrant violation of the principles of "traditional family values."

Society has never lived up to the expectations of high-minded moral principals that we love to expound. That's why we always feel the need to repeat them and emphasize them, until they almost become hollow. The whole notion that everything was better in "the good old days" is pure myth, made up by those who either have political agendas, are completely out of touch with social realities, or lack any sense of history.

Isn't the minor wife tradition a part of Thai family values? Not to condone the way your grandfather related to his minor wife, that's another issue, but stretching back to the Ayuthaya era (and probably beyond), Thai men of means could have more than one partner while remaining practicing Buddhists. Are Buddhism and polygamy (or polyandry) necessarily antagonistic?

[jdinasia]

Thailand: Not in need of 'status crutch'

In the past, Buddhism was an inseparable part of Thai life, history and culture. Today, however, Thai people live a life that is increasingly separated from Buddhist teachings. The proof is in the sharp rise in crime, widespread corruption, domestic violence especially against women and children, proliferation of gambling, promiscuity and the unprecedented obsession with occult practices and talismans.

Occult Practices and talismans? Don't most Thai people associate those with the Buddhist religion?

Making Buddhism a national religion will not increase morality. It will simply fan the flames of oppression and discrimination. Will Thailand enforce a ban on alcohol and prostitution? I doubt it. They might forbid muslims from attending state schools however.

That is the funniest most extreme thing i have seen in this thread!

[pkrv]

What a difficult subject - I would personally view any relationship with a god or teacher, purely under relationship terms, either you consent (great stuff) or you are raped (not good stuff). Attempting to apply a single belief system to an entire country is not in my opinion conducive to consent. It is why (for all its faults) that the west has adopted a Secular approach, in spite of what some religious (and political) leaders may say, we are guaranteed freedom of thought and religion, which by the way also means throwing religion in the bin if we so wish, religious thoughts may not be imposed.

[Plus]

The West with its secular approach has nothing to show for it in terms of preserving religions.

Buddhism is more than two thousand years old and all throughout its history it has been supported by the state (kings). What makes people think that secularism is the way to preserve and even farther advance it?

We had a not very conclusive argument about religion in the US, ok, but in Europe religion is as good as dead. What makes people think that these same European ideas will save Buddhism here, after they ruined Christianity at home?

Yes, if Thailand wants to be a fully democratic country, like in the West, they should separate state and religion, but if it wants to preserve Buddhism - it's a sure way to total destruction.

I daresay that no religion has ever prospered without massive state support.

>>>

I don't subscribe to the "West corrupted Thailand" theory, but maybe, just maybe, the decline in morality was caused by removing Buddhism from public life - people have got no visible reasons to behave in moral and ethical ways. In the West the religion was pushed out by "progressive" ideas, in Thailand it was simply shut out without any alternatives.

And for your grandpa, Tettyan, perhaps he was longing for good old Buddhist days when he could have cared for his mia noi without any social stigma attached to it. Isn't monogamy a western idea, still not fully adopted by Thais?

[cdnvic]

Again you see Buddhism as being so weak in it's foundation that it cannot survive without artificial support. If you believe it to be so, maybe you should be looking at a different philosophy that you might have more faith in?

[Kaysfeld]

The West with its secular approach has nothing to show for it in terms of preserving religions.

Buddhism is more than two thousand years old and all throughout its history it has been supported by the state (kings). What makes people think that secularism is the way to preserve and even farther advance it?

We had a not very conclusive argument about religion in the US, ok, but in Europe religion is as good as dead. What makes people think that these same European ideas will save Buddhism here, after they ruined Christianity at home?

Yes, if Thailand wants to be a fully democratic country, like in the West, they should separate state and religion, but if it wants to preserve Buddhism - it's a sure way to total destruction.

I daresay that no religion has ever prospered without massive state support.

>>>

I don't subscribe to the "West corrupted Thailand" theory, but maybe, just maybe, the decline in morality was caused by removing Buddhism from public life - people have got no visible reasons to behave in moral and ethical ways. In the West the religion was pushed out by "progressive" ideas, in Thailand it was simply shut out without any alternatives.

And for your grandpa, Tettyan, perhaps he was longing for good old Buddhist days when he could have cared for his mia noi without any social stigma attached to it. Isn't monogamy a western idea, still not fully adopted by Thais?

So Buddhism can't survive without massive government support.

If this is so its because people don't agree with the idea’s of Buddhism.

But I don't think you are right, Buddhism will survive with or without state support because Buddhism isn't really a religion but a lifestyle. Buddhism teach you how to take good care of yourself, so you will also be able to take good care of others. To make Buddhism into a state religion really go against the teaching of Buddha. Buddha never told anybody that they had to do this or had to think in this way. He tried to make people see a way to a less troublesome life. But he would never agree that his ideas should be forced on anybody.

You say Christianity is dead in the west. That is not true. Just see how President Bush uses the religion to veto many good new laws. In USA the religion and state is not separate and see how many bad decisions come from this. State religion lead to fanatism, and no fanatic religion is any good whether is Buddhism, Islam, Christianity or Hinduism. The history clearly shows how many bad think have been done by states in the name of a religion.

[ColPyat]

We had a not very conclusive argument about religion in the US, ok, but in Europe religion is as good as dead.

Rubbish, It depends very much on the area. I happened to grow up in an area in Europe in which religion was, and still is a very strong factor in society.

Anyhow, you should rethink your position. In the PTV rally on the 30th many of the people trying to have Buddhism installed as a state religion joined and displayed a very prominent banner. You may find some some of your views shared by some of the groups you do not like.

[Mid]

We had a not very conclusive argument about religion in the US, ok, but in Europe religion is as good as dead.

Rubbish, It depends very much on the area. I happened to grow up in an area in Europe in which religion was, and still is a very strong factor in society.

Anyhow, you should rethink your position. In the PTV rally on the 30th many of the people trying to have Buddhism installed as a state religion joined and displayed a very prominent banner. You may find some some of your views shared by some of the groups you do not like.

ironic ain't it ,

the constitution may be flicked at the referendum ( correct result ) ,

for the wrong reasons ...............................