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Can Only People From "native English Speaking Countries" Teach English?


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Hi Guys -

This is my first post here on thaivisa.com. Quite a huge forum, and it'll take me a few days to even start to scratch the surface of what's been posted in the past, but at first glance, seems like a GREAT forum and I certainly hope to be an active participant.

For now though, I'll start off with a topic that could be considered slightly controversial in some circles. :D

First off, a question - Does skin color or nationality matter more than a person's ability to speak good English in Thailand? I have spent some time in China, and have found that in most cases, it DOES matter ... I am not sure about Thailand, though I suspect it's the same there. If I am wrong though, please let me know and ignore the rest of the post.

If not ... What is up with all these ads requiring "native American speakers", or "native English speakers" from Australia, New Zealand, United States, UK or Canada alone? I have applied to many a job posting, but have been turned down a lot of times because the schools only require native English speakers from those countries - never mind the fact that my English is American English. :o

I have also been told quite bluntly by some schools that "Sorry, we are only looking for white people", and have seen Russians teaching a language that they themselves could not speak!

It's stupid, IMO - A person's English ability should be the ONLY thing that matters when teaching English. I've even heard of some Americans being turned down, because they were of Asian descent!

Am I right in assuming Thais also have this irrational way of looking at things (as far as this particular topic is concerned)? If yes, why do you guys think it happens, and do you think it makes sense? I'd love to see what everyone thinks.

And before anyone chimes in with "well, some people from countries other than those mentioned don't speak good English in an understandable accent", or "their English is sometime influenced by their native tongues" ... well, this holds true for many from the supposedly "native English speaking countries" too. Further, there are many from non-English speaking countries for whom English is indeed just like a native language and they speak it just fine.

Ok - I'll end here. Curious to see what everyone says.

Cheers,

Dongguan

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Hi Guys -

This is my first post here on thaivisa.com. Quite a huge forum, and it'll take me a few days to even start to scratch the surface of what's been posted in the past, but at first glance, seems like a GREAT forum and I certainly hope to be an active participant.

For now though, I'll start off with a topic that could be considered slightly controversial in some circles. :D

First off, a question - Does skin color or nationality matter more than a person's ability to speak good English in Thailand? I have spent some time in China, and have found that in most cases, it DOES matter ... I am not sure about Thailand, though I suspect it's the same there. If I am wrong though, please let me know and ignore the rest of the post.

If not ... What is up with all these ads requiring "native American speakers", or "native English speakers" from Australia, New Zealand, United States, UK or Canada alone? I have applied to many a job posting, but have been turned down a lot of times because the schools only require native English speakers from those countries - never mind the fact that my English is American English. :o

I have also been told quite bluntly by some schools that "Sorry, we are only looking for white people", and have seen Russians teaching a language that they themselves could not speak!

It's stupid, IMO - A person's English ability should be the ONLY thing that matters when teaching English. I've even heard of some Americans being turned down, because they were of Asian descent!

Am I right in assuming Thais also have this irrational way of looking at things (as far as this particular topic is concerned)? If yes, why do you guys think it happens, and do you think it makes sense? I'd love to see what everyone thinks.

And before anyone chimes in with "well, some people from countries other than those mentioned don't speak good English in an understandable accent", or "their English is sometime influenced by their native tongues" ... well, this holds true for many from the supposedly "native English speaking countries" too. Further, there are many from non-English speaking countries for whom English is indeed just like a native language and they speak it just fine.

Ok - I'll end here. Curious to see what everyone says.

Cheers,

Dongguan

Hi,

My first time posting as well. You should try AUA in Bangkok. They hire bright, intelligent teachers with a native like ability and judging from your post you would fit that bill. Good luck

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Thanks for bringing up those issues.

Some of the advertisements are written by......people who don't even know how to write ads, select people, etc. However, some employers in Thailand want EFL teachers who come from native speaking countries, and some schools want those teachers to look like they're of European descent (light-skinned). That is as wrong as it can be, but it's legal here to discriminate against race and national origin. Some schools think that the parents of the students (who are paying dearly for English programs) want a "white monkey" who is paraded before the community as a token white-faced, English speaking chimpanzee.

Note that the usual list (UK, USA, Canada, Australia) usually leaves off New Zealand and Ireland by ignorance, Singapore on purpose (because they're perceived to be Asians), etc. Typical of such ads, they will make a long wish list of requirements, and the day before classes start, they'll be happy to take a Black man from Sierra Leone or a Slovenian. I've seen such examples.

Also, some native speakers of dark skin color are hired willingly by some schools in Thailand, no problem. Likewise, countless hordes of non-English Europeans teach English here.

Good luck. In a few more weeks you should be able to find a job, if you have good qualifications.

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What is up with all these ads requiring "native American speakers", or "native English speakers" from Australia, New Zealand, United States, UK or Canada alone?...

I have also been told quite bluntly by some schools that "Sorry, we are only looking for white people"

I believe in Thailand schools (and other employers) are free to specify the nationality or “native English speaker” in job advertisements.

Regarding discrimination based on colour the last constitution included the following text:

Unjust discrimination against a person on the grounds of the difference

in origin, race, language, sex, age, physical or health condition, personal status,

economic or social standing, religious belief, education or constitutionally political

view, shall not be permitted.

I do not know whether a school’s preference in the colour of its teachers is unjust discrimination. If you think it is, I guess you have to wait for the promulgation of the new constitution and if it includes a similar clause you can then sue the school that rejects your application on the basis of your colour.

--

Maestro

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My school employs more non-native than native English speakers. I am the ONLY native speaker at my school and I am also the ONLY farang. I am out-numbered 19 to 1 by Filippinos whos English is between average and good.

So you will find a job, no matter where you're from as long as you can speak good English, but, you do not have much of a chance of finding a salary comparable to a native speaking farang.

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DG, you post as if you are having a problem regarding skin colour without saying so directly. If this is the case, you should be aware that skin colour prejudice is alive and well in Thailand, in all circumstances, and especially with regard to hiring foreign teachers. Too often the perception here is that native English speakers are "white." Even if school administrators are smart enough to know this isn't true, they may actually be correct in judging that for their market such an ignorant thought must be taken into account. In this case, you are a victim of the local culture.

However, other discrimination along these lines may be justified. For different reasons, different schools may also prefer different accents of English- this is more defensible, to me, as it could have some real world effects (assuming that the language level of the students becomes so high that accents are discernible). Finally, it makes perfect sense for schools which require the highest level of academic English to hire only teachers who grew up in English-speaking countries (let's add South Africa to PB's list, too)- as long as there is an economic choice to do so.

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I forgot, the average Thai school is trying to save money. They would in most cases choose two or three, sometimes four filippinos instead of one white, native speaking westerner. So, it also comes down to money.

If the farang will get paid 36K they can get three filippinos for 12K! More teachers!

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Regarding discrimination based on colour the last constitution included the following text:
Unjust discrimination against a person on the grounds of the difference

in origin, race, language, sex, age, physical or health condition, personal status,

economic or social standing, religious belief, education or constitutionally political

view, shall not be permitted.

I do not know whether a school’s preference in the colour of its teachers is unjust discrimination. If you think it is, I guess you have to wait for the promulgation of the new constitution and if it includes a similar clause you can then sue the school that rejects your application on the basis of your colour.

--

Maestro

With all due respect, those fine sounding words appear in Chapter 3 of the Constitution of 1997. That chapter title is, significantly, "Rights and Liberties of the Thai People". The Constitution of 1997 as rendered to English does not contain the word foreigner nor any guarantees of their rights.

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Regarding discrimination based on colour the last constitution included the following text:
Unjust discrimination against a person on the grounds of the difference

in origin, race, language, sex, age, physical or health condition, personal status,

economic or social standing, religious belief, education or constitutionally political

view, shall not be permitted.

I do not know whether a school’s preference in the colour of its teachers is unjust discrimination. If you think it is, I guess you have to wait for the promulgation of the new constitution and if it includes a similar clause you can then sue the school that rejects your application on the basis of your colour.

--

Maestro

With all due respect, those fine sounding words appear in Chapter 3 of the Constitution of 1997. That chapter title is, significantly, "Rights and Liberties of the Thai People". The Constitution of 1997 as rendered to English does not contain the word foreigner nor any guarantees of their rights.

That makes more sense. When I read what Maestro wrote I had a hard time believeing how generous the Thai law was to us foriegners here :o

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I forgot, the average Thai school is trying to save money. They would in most cases choose two or three, sometimes four filippinos instead of one white, native speaking westerner. So, it also comes down to money.<br />If the farang will get paid 36K they can get three filippinos for 12K! More teachers!<br />

I believe this is more the case today.

When I first started teaching 4 years ago my tefl instructer told me that a white skinned Brit or American was still the number 1 choice followed by Aussies and so on down to the bottom of the list being asians ie Filipinos and finally at number 10 a black skinned teacher from say Nigeria. Black Americans/ Brits would be higher up the list. This certainly seemed the norm and there is no denying the fact that Thais are, in general, pretty racist however they love money more so once they could get away with employing Filipinos for a third of the salary of a native white person by convincing the parents they are as good as a native, then saving money or let's say being able to corrupt more away from the budget, means Filipinos have gone way up the list from number 9 to probably number 2 today.

Edited by IJustKnowItAll
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I forgot, the average Thai school is trying to save money. They would in most cases choose two or three, sometimes four filippinos instead of one white, native speaking westerner. So, it also comes down to money.<br />If the farang will get paid 36K they can get three filippinos for 12K! More teachers!<br />

I believe this is more the case today.

When I first started teaching 4 years ago my tefl instructer told me that a white skinned Brit or American was still the number 1 choice followed by Aussies and so on down to the bottom of the list being asians ie Filipinos and finally at number 10 a black skinned teacher from say Nigeria. Black Americans/ Brits would be higher up the list. This certainly seemed the norm and there is no denying the fact that Thais are, in general, pretty racist however they love money more so once they could get away with employing Filipinos for a third of the salary of a native white person by convincing the parents they are as good as a native, then saving money or let's say being able to corrupt more away from the budget, means Filipinos have gone way up the list from number 9 to probably number 2 today.

Very true. The quality isn't as important as it use to be, but, I get the feeling once the parents start waking up and rasing concerns about why their kids can't speak English and why their kids pronounce words wrong, the parents will discover what is going on and I believe in a few years, the system will be changing back to the way it was, not because the system wants to, but because the system will be forced to by the customers (parents) who keep it in business.

As long as the parents and students want to see and be taught by ajarn farang, the system will be required to change or loose a lot of business.

Edited by aussiestyle1983
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Hi everyone -

Thanks for all your responses, I appreciate it. I will address most relevant parts below, but if I've missed anything, please let me know. :o

(ok, I tried to submit this as one post but it said I quoted too many posts, so I'll break it up)

Hi Guys -

This is my first post here on thaivisa.com. Quite a huge forum, and it'll take me a few days to even start to scratch the surface of what's been posted in the past, but at first glance, seems like a GREAT forum and I certainly hope to be an active participant.

For now though, I'll start off with a topic that could be considered slightly controversial in some circles. :D

First off, a question - Does skin color or nationality matter more than a person's ability to speak good English in Thailand? I have spent some time in China, and have found that in most cases, it DOES matter ... I am not sure about Thailand, though I suspect it's the same there. If I am wrong though, please let me know and ignore the rest of the post.

If not ... What is up with all these ads requiring "native American speakers", or "native English speakers" from Australia, New Zealand, United States, UK or Canada alone? I have applied to many a job posting, but have been turned down a lot of times because the schools only require native English speakers from those countries - never mind the fact that my English is American English. :D

I have also been told quite bluntly by some schools that "Sorry, we are only looking for white people", and have seen Russians teaching a language that they themselves could not speak!

It's stupid, IMO - A person's English ability should be the ONLY thing that matters when teaching English. I've even heard of some Americans being turned down, because they were of Asian descent!

Am I right in assuming Thais also have this irrational way of looking at things (as far as this particular topic is concerned)? If yes, why do you guys think it happens, and do you think it makes sense? I'd love to see what everyone thinks.

And before anyone chimes in with "well, some people from countries other than those mentioned don't speak good English in an understandable accent", or "their English is sometime influenced by their native tongues" ... well, this holds true for many from the supposedly "native English speaking countries" too. Further, there are many from non-English speaking countries for whom English is indeed just like a native language and they speak it just fine.

Ok - I'll end here. Curious to see what everyone says.

Cheers,

Dongguan

Hi,

My first time posting as well. You should try AUA in Bangkok. They hire bright, intelligent teachers with a native like ability and judging from your post you would fit that bill. Good luck

Hey - good to meet you. What is AUA? Any web link I could look at?

Appreciate your kind remarks! :D

Thanks for bringing up those issues.

You are welcome.

Some of the advertisements are written by......people who don't even know how to write ads, select people, etc. However, some employers in Thailand want EFL teachers who come from native speaking countries, and some schools want those teachers to look like they're of European descent (light-skinned). That is as wrong as it can be, but it's legal here to discriminate against race and national origin. Some schools think that the parents of the students (who are paying dearly for English programs) want a "white monkey" who is paraded before the community as a token white-faced, English speaking chimpanzee.

I agree, most schools seemingly want teachers to look like they are Caucasian - and yes it's legal, but it's wrong. I find the way you describe things (in bold) quite interesting too!

Note that the usual list (UK, USA, Canada, Australia) usually leaves off New Zealand and Ireland by ignorance,

Kiwis are usually there, but South Africans and Irish are always left out! Now THAT makes no sense.

Singapore on purpose (because they're perceived to be Asians), etc. Typical of such ads, they will make a long wish list of requirements, and the day before classes start, they'll be happy to take a Black man from Sierra Leone or a Slovenian. I've seen such examples.

Hehe - India is another Asian country which is excluded from the list. Stupid.

Also, some native speakers of dark skin color are hired willingly by some schools in Thailand, no problem. Likewise, countless hordes of non-English Europeans teach English here.

Same in China, and I agree, but I wonder what they make. Generally, they hire native speakers to be teaching assistants first, which is something I find ridiculous given the qualifications are the same as those who are full fledged teachers.

Good luck. In a few more weeks you should be able to find a job, if you have good qualifications.

Thanks, I appreciate it. It's not that easy , but I do have a college degree, same as any of the other countless "teaching job seekers" ... :D

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What is up with all these ads requiring "native American speakers", or "native English speakers" from Australia, New Zealand, United States, UK or Canada alone?...

I have also been told quite bluntly by some schools that "Sorry, we are only looking for white people"

I believe in Thailand schools (and other employers) are free to specify the nationality or "native English speaker" in job advertisements.

Regarding discrimination based on colour the last constitution included the following text:

Unjust discrimination against a person on the grounds of the difference

in origin, race, language, sex, age, physical or health condition, personal status,

economic or social standing, religious belief, education or constitutionally political

view, shall not be permitted.

I do not know whether a school's preference in the colour of its teachers is unjust discrimination. If you think it is, I guess you have to wait for the promulgation of the new constitution and if it includes a similar clause you can then sue the school that rejects your application on the basis of your colour.

--

Maestro

So, you don't think it's unjust? I most certainly do ... However, it's not that easy to sue, primarily because the school will never tell you (in formal writing) that they have rejected your application on the basis of nationality/skin color.

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Donguan, if you have a real college/university bachelor's degree, you're ahead of the pack in some neighborhoods.

I know what you mean - I've seen people straight out of high school get teaching jobs in China, earning the same amount as an adult with a degree would! LOL.

Yes, my degree is most certainly real. :o

My school employs more non-native than native English speakers. I am the ONLY native speaker at my school and I am also the ONLY farang. I am out-numbered 19 to 1 by Filippinos whos English is between average and good.

So you will find a job, no matter where you're from as long as you can speak good English, but, you do not have much of a chance of finding a salary comparable to a native speaking farang.

Ah, but thats what I don't like - if the English ability is the same, salary should be too. Anything else is discrimination, plain and simple.

DG, you post as if you are having a problem regarding skin colour without saying so directly. If this is the case, you should be aware that skin colour prejudice is alive and well in Thailand, in all circumstances, and especially with regard to hiring foreign teachers. Too often the perception here is that native English speakers are "white." Even if school administrators are smart enough to know this isn't true, they may actually be correct in judging that for their market such an ignorant thought must be taken into account. In this case, you are a victim of the local culture.

However, other discrimination along these lines may be justified. For different reasons, different schools may also prefer different accents of English- this is more defensible, to me, as it could have some real world effects (assuming that the language level of the students becomes so high that accents are discernible). Finally, it makes perfect sense for schools which require the highest level of academic English to hire only teachers who grew up in English-speaking countries (let's add South Africa to PB's list, too)- as long as there is an economic choice to do so.

@your first paragraph - I am very aware of it. I have lived in China for a while, and the same problem has reared it's ugly head a lot of times. Funny thing is, I've never experienced racism otherwise in day to day life though I've known people that have ... it's only while looking for teaching jobs.

@your second paragraph - I disagree. I do not agree it makes perfect sense for the schools which require the highest levels of English to hire only from "English speaking countries". First off, there could be people that could have grown up in an English speaking environment even though they might be from a different country and in such case, the differences are minute if even there. Further, there are people in those countries whose English is just as good (if not better) than those from "native English speaking" countries. So, what you are saying does not make sense as anyone can have a high level of English.

As far as accents go, well, Brits, Aussies, Americans all have different accents - so I see no reason why an African or Singaporean accent should cause issues, so long as the person can speak English well enough.

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OK, I tried to edit my last post, but it was slow so I'll just type it here.

@Ijustwannteach - Another thing I forgot to mention is anyone can speak with a desired accent i.e. an Indian can speak with an American accent, Singaporean with a Brit accent, etc etc. The schools should be looking at each candidate individually rather than just generalize.

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Donguan, in the international schools, some use the British IB curriculum, others use the American system and academic calendar, etc. They sometimes have the national title in their name, such as

"American Pacific..." so those schools might have clients that want American English taught and heard in the school. But we're talking about places that charge hundreds of thousands of baht per year in Thailand; not at all like the better state schools or smaller private schools. Those usually have a strong foreign-owned or foreign-run presence, as well, who would appreciate someone of African or Asian descent who was born and raised in a major English-speaking country.

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Donguan, in the international schools, some use the British IB curriculum, others use the American system and academic calendar, etc. They sometimes have the national title in their name, such as

"American Pacific..." so those schools might have clients that want American English taught and heard in the school. But we're talking about places that charge hundreds of thousands of baht per year in Thailand; not at all like the better state schools or smaller private schools. Those usually have a strong foreign-owned or foreign-run presence, as well, who would appreciate someone of African or Asian descent who was born and raised in a major English-speaking country.

Ok, I understand what you are saying, Peace Blondie. :D

Thing is, I've tried applying to many small schools/colleges in China, which don't charge that much money - but haven't had any luck, with the exception of one school ...

Thailand may be a little different though - Do you have any links for these schools I can look at? :o Or do you just recommend using google?

Thanks,

Dongguan

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OK, I tried to edit my last post, but it was slow so I'll just type it here.

@Ijustwannteach - Another thing I forgot to mention is anyone can speak with a desired accent i.e. an Indian can speak with an American accent, Singaporean with a Brit accent, etc etc. The schools should be looking at each candidate individually rather than just generalize.

A great actor might be able to switch their native accent after reaching adulthood, but most of us can't do it unless we really work hard and long at it. I can spend all day with an Australian before I even start calling him 'mate' and no matter how many Canadians I run with, we still pronounce about differently! :o

I had a boss from India (BBA, chief accountant) and we dinna' understand 'alf wot 'e said, t' bloke. :D

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With all due respect, those fine sounding words appear in Chapter 3 of the Constitution of 1997. That chapter title is, significantly, "Rights and Liberties of the Thai People".

Oops, you got me there. I simply searched for “race” in that lengthy document; didn’t look at the chapter title. Thank you for the correction.

--

Maestro

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OK, I tried to edit my last post, but it was slow so I'll just type it here.

@Ijustwannteach - Another thing I forgot to mention is anyone can speak with a desired accent i.e. an Indian can speak with an American accent, Singaporean with a Brit accent, etc etc. The schools should be looking at each candidate individually rather than just generalize.

A great actor might be able to switch their native accent after reaching adulthood, but most of us can't do it unless we really work hard and long at it. I can spend all day with an Australian before I even start calling him 'mate' and no matter how many Canadians I run with, we still pronounce about differently! :D

I had a boss from India (BBA, chief accountant) and we dinna' understand 'alf wot 'e said, t' bloke. :D

I don't know about having to be a great actor to switch accents ... I did it, and I'm not sure if I qualify as a great actor. :o

There may still be very slight differences in accent, but at the end of the day, there are SO many different accents in the US too - so long as it sounds American, thats all that should matter for the schools (or really, so long as one can understand what the person is saying).

I know what you mean about the Indian boss though, lol. Lots of Indians don't really speak good English, even though they learn it in school. Other hand, there is a small minority that DOES speak good English ... albeit with a "neutral" accent.

I'm just saying, schools should consider each candidate individually ...

Dongguan

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Oh, and just to be fair - regarding the not being able to understand Indians (some of them, at any rate) thing, I've spoken to quite a few Brits, and it took me QUITE a long time to get used to their accent ...

I generally find Aussie/US accents easier to understand, but that's just me.

So, all this is relative IMO ...

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Oh, and just to be fair - regarding the not being able to understand Indians (some of them, at any rate) thing, I've spoken to quite a few Brits, and it took me QUITE a long time to get used to their accent ...

I generally find Aussie/US accents easier to understand, but that's just me.

So, all this is relative IMO ...

Certainly true about Brits - some very difficult accents.

I personally do not think Thais have a problem with black westerners at all. They do look down on their own 'black' people from Issan or dark people from neighbouring countries. Dark skin in Asia is regarded as indicating you're from a low social group as you appear to look as if you work in the sun. Compare this to white skin which indicates working indoors. No different from England 200 years ago - the blue bloods with milk-white skin were the top of the heap.

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As you say, the key is that the students understand their teacher's speech. I kind of assume that all of us discard our regional accents, and even tone down some of our national accents, and speak what is variously described as "international English." I've met Asian students going to an international school who couldn't understand their Australian teachers!

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Oh, and just to be fair - regarding the not being able to understand Indians (some of them, at any rate) thing, I've spoken to quite a few Brits, and it took me QUITE a long time to get used to their accent ...

I generally find Aussie/US accents easier to understand, but that's just me.

So, all this is relative IMO ...

Certainly true about Brits - some very difficult accents.

I personally do not think Thais have a problem with black westerners at all. They do look down on their own 'black' people from Issan or dark people from neighbouring countries. Dark skin in Asia is regarded as indicating you're from a low social group as you appear to look as if you work in the sun. Compare this to white skin which indicates working indoors. No different from England 200 years ago - the blue bloods with milk-white skin were the top of the heap.

Agree with all of that, except for the first statement. Not sure if Thais dont have a problem with black westerners ... At first glance, it might not seem like they do, but these things are often understood only after observing them for a while,and making comparisions (compare their treatment of blacks to how they treat other races). I know it's quite a problem in China, for one.

I've met Asian students going to an international school who couldn't understand their Australian teachers!

LOL!! This makes my point perfectly for me ... :o

Cheers,

Dongguan

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Been here since the last century and I don't feel Thais have a problem because a westerner has black skin. I feel white westerners like to repeat this myth. I do feel Thais look at black westerners and do not find them physically attractive but that's all IMO.

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Makes me laugh when I hear thay want 'Native English Speakers only'.

At one place I taught last year there was a Scot with a broad accent and a Geordie that even I couldn't understand!

Goodness knows what their pupils will speak like.........

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Been here since the last century and I don't feel Thais have a problem because a westerner has black skin. I feel white westerners like to repeat this myth. I do feel Thais look at black westerners and do not find them physically attractive but that's all IMO.

Well, can't say how it is in Thailand, since I've never been there. The Chinese dont have a problem, per se, with black foreigners either, but the way they treat them/interact with them is sometimes a bit different from the way they interact with others. And no, it's not just because they dont find them attractive physically. By the way, how can one generalize like that anyway? :D

Makes me laugh when I hear thay want 'Native English Speakers only'.

At one place I taught last year there was a Scot with a broad accent and a Geordie that even I couldn't understand!

Goodness knows what their pupils will speak like.........

Hehe. What about the Russians teaching English?

:o

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