Staying in Thailand with no visa

[cpfc1949]

Hi guys,

 

A friend of mine entered Thailand last June (2019) on a SINGLE entry Non-Imm 'O' visa.

Got his 90 days at the airport and a further 60 day extension at our local I.O. (Kampaengphet).

After that he went to Mae Sot to do a border bounce and on re-entering got another 30 days.When that was due to expire,went to the I.O and

they gave him another 60 days.

I might add that he is over 70 and married to a Thai.

Late Jan/early Feb he did another border bounce and got another 30 days and then extended that by another 60 days at the I.O.

He is currently stamped in till mid-May.

I found it hard to believe that someone (albeit married to a Thai) can stay here for this length of time.In fact were the borders not closed he

reckons that he could do this 1 more time.Only 2 land entries are permitted in a calendar year.

He showed me his passport and I can confirm that all the entry,exit and 'permission to stay...' stamps were correct.

Has anyone got any experience of this or thoughts on the matter ?

Some of you guys know a hell of a lot more than I do about these things.

Thanks in advance for any input you may have.

The reason I'm asking is that with the current situation in the U.K. I'm in no rush  to get back.

 

F.Y.I. I'm currently on a 30 day extension of a visa-exempt entry.I'm O.K. till the end of July(I think ! ) and like my friend I'm just over 70 and married here to a Thai lady.

I can't go down the marriage or retirement visa road.

Sorry for the length of the post.

[BritTim]

There is nothing improper in what your friend has done, though some will claim he should have used Non O visas or long term extensions of stay instead. Right now, he can stay until July 31st, but may then have difficulty staying longer or leaving and reentering Thailand. Time will tell, but most countries seem to be preparing for a long period of heavily restricted entry of foreigners.

[Peter Denis]

Yes, your friends way of staying in Thailand works (at least for the time being). 

The fact that he is married to a thai national obviously helps, as that allows him with each entry to apply at his local IO for a 60-day extension of stay for reason of visiting his thai wife.

However, sooner or later he will experience trouble as thai Immigration does not want people to stay in Thailand long-term without the correct Visa.  From what you wrote he is doing the Visa Exempt / 60-day extension approach since end 2019/beginning 2020.  With the Amnesty now on-going he is 'safe' till July 31 (which might even get extended).

But once the borders are open and he can do a border-run again, he will have stayed more than 180 days in Thailand without a Visa and so he might get questioned or even denied entry when continuing this Visa Exempt / 60-day extension approach.

In that case, there are several options to stay long-term legit.

 

Since he obviously doesn't mind doing border-runs, he might consider to apply for a 1-year MultipleEntry Non Imm O - marriage Visa at one of the thai consulates abroad that issue them (Savannakhet, Laos / HoChiMinh City, Vietnam / Penang, Malaysia).  Contrary to applying for a 90-day Non Imm O - marriage Visa at your local IO, the process for getting the Visa is simple and straightforward (applying in the morning of day 1 and collecting your passport with the Visa on day 2).  Additional advantages of that 1-year ME Non Imm O - marriage Visa are that it does not require any financials to be proven, so NO need for money to be locked up in a thai bank account, NO need for 90-day reports, NO need for re-entry permits (as it is multiple entry) and NO need for applying at your local IO for a 1-year extension and all the associated hoops.

As the 1-year ME Non Imm O Visa only provides 90-day permissions to stay, you would have to do a border-run when your permission to stay is due to expire or alternatively - as your friend is doing now - applying at his local IO for a 60-day extension for reason of visiting his wife.

When timed right that 1-year Non Imm O - marriage Visa can provide you with 17 months of IO-hassle free stay in Thailand.

>> When you need additional information about the requirements or practicalities to apply for that Visa, just PM me.

 

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, cpfc1949 said:

A friend of mine entered Thailand last June (2019) on a SINGLE entry Non-Imm 'O' visa. ...

(snipped stamp history here)

 

Quote

... He is currently stamped in till mid-May.

I found it hard to believe that someone (albeit married to a Thai) can stay here for this length of time.In fact were the borders not closed he

reckons that he could do this 1 more time.Only 2 land entries are permitted in a calendar year.

He showed me his passport and I can confirm that all the entry,exit and 'permission to stay...' stamps were correct.

Has anyone got any experience of this or thoughts on the matter ?

Some of you guys know a hell of a lot more than I do about these things.

Thanks in advance for any input you may have.

The reason I'm asking is that with the current situation in the U.K. I'm in no rush  to get back.

Being married to a Thai gives him those 60-day extensions, though not sure why he didn't go for a Non-O-ME Visa - providing a year's time to make 90-day entries - in Savannakhet or HCMC. 

As to immigration Law, and your case (no Thai family) - there is no legal restriction on time-spent or number of entries to Thailand as a tourist.  In fact, until the last few years, longer-staying via "border-bounces" was encouraged, due to the benefit of foreign-sourced capital being spent in Thai businesses. 

 

The only problem you may encounter, are IOs who Violate The Law and Deny Entry to people who have "stayed too long," in their opinion.  Note that the Immigration Act does not allow IOs to invent reasons to deny-entry - there is a specified list, and "too much time in Thailand" is NOT on it.  Because IOs lack this authority, and to avoid leaving evidence of a criminal-act, they pick something from the legal-list of reasons for denial which clearly does NOT apply to the applicant, and stamp this LIE in the victim's passport as the reason for denial. 
 

The way to avoid this problem, is to use ONLY entry-points and immigration offices which are still run by law-abiding IOs.  The "safe" list includes almost all land-border entry points, with a few exceptions.  The "unsafe" list includes both capital city airports - sad for Thailand, and why all those Thai businesses and their Thai employee's incomes were destroyed. 

 

The PURPOSE of all this - which has destroyed much of the non-package-tour tourist-related business which grew and prosopered here for decades - is to push as many foreigners as possible into long-stay visas (usually non-ED or non-O).  To get one of those, many will have to use Immigration's Agent-Partners, who submit applications with fat envelopes.  Agent-applications receive little-scrutiny, are processed in 5 minutes, and even bypass the financial-requirements.  "Honest" applicants are often put through hell - "undocumented" requirements added with each attempt to apply, insults hurled at applicants and their Thai families, etc.  The methods to avoid processing legitimate applications vary with each office around the country, proving their is no official-sanction for the varying undocumented requirements to which HONEST applicants are subjected.

 

This renders Thai-Immigration a sick parody of a legit govt agency.  Having experienced this system many times, in multiple offices around the country, I now approach immigration as though I were going to a crime-boss's "turf" - because, in Western countries, the people I will encounter there would be confined to a Penetentiary for what they are engaged in.

[Mulambana]

I would expect Cambodia and Laos borderd open up next month as they have registered very few cases and no death at all. 

[DrJack54]

13 hours ago, Mulambana said:

I would expect Cambodia and Laos borderd open up next month as they have registered very few cases and no death at all. 

For those looking to exit and re-enter Thailand to obtain visa exempt entry or even visa at consulate, the requirements of what both governments either side of border will be the problem. 

Any quarantine from either side would be deal breaker. Let alone medical etc.

I'm thinking folk here currently with no permission of stay stamp and allowed to remain during amnesty period should have fallback plan of return to home country.

[Max69xl]

On 5/10/2020 at 9:52 AM, JackThompson said:

(snipped stamp history here)

 

Being married to a Thai gives him those 60-day extensions, though not sure why he didn't go for a Non-O-ME Visa - providing a year's time to make 90-day entries - in Savannakhet or HCMC. 

As to immigration Law, and your case (no Thai family) - there is no legal restriction on time-spent or number of entries to Thailand as a tourist.  In fact, until the last few years, longer-staying via "border-bounces" was encouraged, due to the benefit of foreign-sourced capital being spent in Thai businesses. 

 

The only problem you may encounter, are IOs who Violate The Law and Deny Entry to people who have "stayed too long," in their opinion.  Note that the Immigration Act does not allow IOs to invent reasons to deny-entry - there is a specified list, and "too much time in Thailand" is NOT on it.  Because IOs lack this authority, and to avoid leaving evidence of a criminal-act, they pick something from the legal-list of reasons for denial which clearly does NOT apply to the applicant, and stamp this LIE in the victim's passport as the reason for denial. 
 

The way to avoid this problem, is to use ONLY entry-points and immigration offices which are still run by law-abiding IOs.  The "safe" list includes almost all land-border entry points, with a few exceptions.  The "unsafe" list includes both capital city airports - sad for Thailand, and why all those Thai businesses and their Thai employee's incomes were destroyed. 

 

The PURPOSE of all this - which has destroyed much of the non-package-tour tourist-related business which grew and prosopered here for decades - is to push as many foreigners as possible into long-stay visas (usually non-ED or non-O).  To get one of those, many will have to use Immigration's Agent-Partners, who submit applications with fat envelopes.  Agent-applications receive little-scrutiny, are processed in 5 minutes, and even bypass the financial-requirements.  "Honest" applicants are often put through hell - "undocumented" requirements added with each attempt to apply, insults hurled at applicants and their Thai families, etc.  The methods to avoid processing legitimate applications vary with each office around the country, proving their is no official-sanction for the varying undocumented requirements to which HONEST applicants are subjected.

 

This renders Thai-Immigration a sick parody of a legit govt agency.  Having experienced this system many times, in multiple offices around the country, I now approach immigration as though I were going to a crime-boss's "turf" - because, in Western countries, the people I will encounter there would be confined to a Penetentiary for what they are engaged in.

"In fact, until the last few years, longer-staying via "border-bounces" was encouraged, due to the benefit of foreign-sourced capital being spent in Thai businesses."

When were border runs encouraged? It was a legal right,nothing more. Why do you think Immigration came up with 2 border crossings per calendar year? People doing endless visa runs or  border runs are not the people that helps Thai economy the most. 

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, Max69xl said:

"In fact, until the last few years, longer-staying via "border-bounces" was encouraged, due to the benefit of foreign-sourced capital being spent in Thai businesses."

When were border runs encouraged? It was a legal right,nothing more.

It is still "legal" - just blocked by immigration on false-grounds.
 

Quote

Why do you think Immigration came up with 2 border crossings per calendar year? People doing endless visa runs or  border runs are not the people that helps Thai economy the most. 

Immigration could not care less about what helps the Thai economy.  They care about only what they are paid to care about.   Whether this or that group of foreigners were contributing "as much" as some other group is irrelevant.  The choice was not "one or the other" / mutally-exclusive. 

Shutting down businesses through Immigration's change in long-standing policy was a bad thing for those business owners and their Thai employees.  This did not create an increase in some other type of visitor. 

In fact, the "tour group" visitors are funneled to large-businesses, who hire fewer employees/visitor, work their employees harder, and pay less than the smaller ones.  Ask any Thai who worked for a small guesthouse and a large hotel about the difference.   Then factor in the tour-bus traffic jams, etc.

[sead]

This is exactly the reason people are complaining. They usually take it to the extremes and when their luck is over they will complain. 

[Chaaang]

On 5/11/2020 at 8:14 AM, DrJack54 said:

I'm thinking folk here currently with no permission of stay stamp and allowed to remain during amnesty period should have fallback plan of return to home country.

Well, returning to home country is not a problem once planes are back in the air. This biggest problem will be to come back to Thailand. For example, COVID-19 test 3 days prior to your flight. Impossible, at least in my country. It takes 5 - NoBodyKnows days to receive the results (that's in case you're wishing to make the test). In case they bring you in by ambulance they'll do it immediately, but in this case you're flying nowhere. Another problem - Covid-19 insurance. I've checked several large insurance companies - no one issuing such type of insurance. For many people the situation will be the following: leaving your wife, your children, flying back to home country and be separated for an unknown period of time.

[MagnumForce]

On 5/10/2020 at 9:52 AM, JackThompson said:

The PURPOSE of all this - which has destroyed much of the non-package-tour tourist-related business which grew and prosopered here for decades - is to push as many foreigners as possible into long-stay visas (usually non-ED or non-O).  To get one of those, many will have to use Immigration's Agent-Partners, who submit applications with fat envelopes.  Agent-applications receive little-scrutiny, are processed in 5 minutes, and even bypass the financial-requirements.  "Honest" applicants are often put through hell - "undocumented" requirements added with each attempt to apply, insults hurled at applicants and their Thai families, etc.  The methods to avoid processing legitimate applications vary with each office around the country, proving their is no official-sanction for the varying undocumented requirements to which HONEST applicants are subjected.

Worse than that is that an IO I had contact with yesterday openly stated that the "unofficial" fee for switching to a Non-Imm 'O' visa (initial 90 days visa, not extension of stay) based on marriage in-country is 16,000THB. This is even before my documents and papers were checked and reviewed. Seems like they are not even playing the game of putting "honest" applicants through hell asking for this and that. They've just cut straight to the chase. 16,000THB for a Non-Imm 'O' visa (initial 90 days visa, not extension of stay) based on marriage in-country, if you are trying to switch over to it from another permission to stay. The implication is obviously that by not playing ball and insisting on lodging your application as is, it will not be successful.

 

How does one get around such blatant corruption? Do I just hold my tongue and pay up? Can I use another Immigration Office? Can I use Immigration Head Office in Bangkok?

 

This is why I wanted to get my Non-Imm 'O' Multi-Entry in Laos, to avoid these criminals in uniform. I am now faced with paying up or gambling on the Thai Consulates in Laos opening soon with no changes to the way they conducted their business pre-Covid 19, and, also, gambling on being allowed out to Laos for the purposes of securing said visa and then being allowed back into Thailand without hassle. A rock and a hard place.

[JackThompson]

16 minutes ago, MagnumForce said:

Worse than that is that an IO I had contact with yesterday openly stated that the "unofficial" fee for switching to a Non-Imm 'O' based on marriage in-country is 16,000THB. This is even before my documents and papers were checked and reviewed. Seems like they are not even playing the game of putting "honest" applicants through hell asking for this and that. They've just cut straight to the chase. 16,000THB for a Non-Imm 'O' based on marriage in-country, if you are trying to switch over to it from another permission to stay. The implication is obviously that by not playing ball and insisting on lodging your application as is, it will not be successful.

Sounds like Jomtien.  Been there, and tried that myself.  Was only 15K, then.  Ended up going out for a Non-O Visa, instead, then blocked on the 1-year with "unobtanium" landlord-docs.

 

Quote

How does one get around such blatant corruption? Do I just hold my tongue and pay up? Can I use another Immigration Office? Can I use Immigration Head Office in Bangkok?

You can move to Bangkok for a few months - do the 90-Day Non-O and 1st Extension there, then move back.  If I had it to do all over again, that is what I would have done.  At the time, I had an embassy-letter (no longer available) and bank-book proof of the income - and didn't need to prove the income "is a 'state pension'," to qualify at Chang Wattana (then).

 

Quote

This is why I wanted to get my Non-Imm 'O' Multi-Entry in Laos, to avoid these criminals in uniform. I am now faced with paying up or gambling on the Thai Consulates in Laos opening soon with no changes to the way they conducted their business pre-Covid 19, and, also, gambling on being allowed out to Laos for the purposes of securing said visa and then being allowed back into Thailand without hassle. A rock and a hard place.

I understand.  It's a mess.  I hope I can go get a visa in Savannakhet before the "covid-extension" ends, as I was blocked on piles of work-docs (I work in Thailand w/ work-permit, now) on my attempt at an extension in Bangkok.  

If you have 400K risk-capital to sit untouched "in the bank" for months, doing it "legit" in Bangkok is an option - but you have to move there for a few months - for the 90-day, then wait 45 days, then the 1-year + home-visit.  After that, you could leave and just come back to visit for the final-stamp - but with the 400K still in the bank to show, after 'the under consideration' period.

[MagnumForce]

15 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Sounds like Jomtien.

No, the once upon a time helpful and friendly Udon Thani IO.

 

16 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Ended up going out for a Non-O Visa, instead, then blocked on the 1-year with "unobtanium" landlord-docs.

You mean that out of spite for going to get the Non-O Visa, they wouldn't process the annual extension in-country?

 

18 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

If you have 400K risk-capital to sit untouched "in the bank" for months, doing it "legit" in Bangkok is an option - but you have to move there for a few months - for the 90-day, then wait 45 days, then the 1-year + home-visit.  After that, you could leave and just come back to visit for the final-stamp - but with the 400K still in the bank to show, after 'the under consideration' period.

Not possible, unfortunately, but thanks for the idea. A wife and three kids to look after, two of whom have school to attend when it opens. 

 

So, it's pay up now or take a gamble on Laos. 

[Okis]

19 minutes ago, MagnumForce said:

No, the once upon a time helpful and friendly Udon Thani IO.

 

You mean that out of spite for going to get the Non-O Visa, they wouldn't process the annual extension in-country?

 

Not possible, unfortunately, but thanks for the idea. A wife and three kids to look after, two of whom have school to attend when it opens. 

 

So, it's pay up now or take a gamble on Laos. 

For that amount of money you might aswell go the agent route and you won't have to lock down your money in a account. Wouldn't cost much more than what the corrupt IO stated. 

 

They have no shame. 

[MagnumForce]

5 minutes ago, Okis said:

26 minutes ago, MagnumForce said:

No, the once upon a time helpful and friendly Udon Thani IO.

 

You mean that out of spite for going to get the Non-O Visa, they wouldn't process the annual extension in-country?

 

Not possible, unfortunately, but thanks for the idea. A wife and three kids to look after, two of whom have school to attend when it opens. 

 

So, it's pay up now or take a gamble on Laos. 

For that amount of money you might aswell go the agent route and you won't have to lock down your money in a account. Wouldn't cost much more than what the corrupt IO stated. 

 

They have no shame. 

Funny that you should mention it but I had contacted an agent previously and they quoted 15,000THB for the same. However, the visa stamp would be out of Khon Kaen Immigration not Udon Thani, so it would obviously raise a red flag if I chose to apply for an annual extension at Udon Thani towards the end of the initial 90 days visa. When I raised this issue with the agent, they said they could also do the annual extension for me for another 25,000THB. So, 40,000THB for a full year. Sounds well over-priced, as well as dodgy since I live in Udon Thani, and my 90-day report and TM.30's etc would all be based on my Udon Thani address. The only redeeming feature is that I think Khon Kaen is the regional Immigration HQ so whoever the fat cat is there who stamps my visa is probably too senior for anyone in Udon Thani to make a problem for me. 

 

I am going to notify my embassy of this scam and see if they can raise it with the MFA. It is absolutely disgusting, to say the least, particularly in these present times where people may have no other options.

[pineapple01]

You can thank the Just Marry a Bar Girl drunks that did so for easy Visa about 25 years ago. Before that is was 200Bht and easy. They Ducked it up for thousand of genuine blokes.

[Peter Denis]

14 minutes ago, MagnumForce said:

Funny that you should mention it but I had contacted an agent previously and they quoted 15,000THB for the same. However, the visa stamp would be out of Khon Kaen Immigration not Udon Thani, so it would obviously raise a red flag if I chose to apply for an annual extension at Udon Thani towards the end of the initial 90 days visa. When I raised this issue with the agent, they said they could also do the annual extension for me for another 25,000THB. So, 40,000THB for a full year. Sounds well over-priced, as well as dodgy since I live in Udon Thani, and my 90-day report and TM.30's etc would all be based on my Udon Thani address. The only redeeming feature is that I think Khon Kaen is the regional Immigration HQ so whoever the fat cat is there who stamps my visa is probably too senior for anyone in Udon Thani to make a problem for me. 

 

I am going to notify my embassy of this scam and see if they can raise it with the MFA. It is absolutely disgusting, to say the least, particularly in these present times where people may have no other options.

I am not sure that notifying your embassy and the MFA is the appropriate way to address the issue.  I understood - but might be wrong - that the MFA and Immigration, being part of the Royal Thai Police, are two completely separate organizations.

But you could consider notifying the Immigration Helpline 1178, as well as the divisional headquarter of the IO that you are reporting to (if your IO is UdonThani, that would be the divisional headquarter in KhonKaen).  Most probably there is also a higher level than the divisional headquarter, and that would obviously also be the appropriate instance to be notified of these corrupt practices.

 

 

[drbeach]

On 5/10/2020 at 6:48 PM, Mulambana said:

I would expect Cambodia and Laos borderd open up next month as they have registered very few cases and no death at all. 

They have performed almost no tests. Can't believe anything coming out of those two countries.

[drbeach]

On 5/10/2020 at 8:28 AM, BritTim said:

There is nothing improper in what your friend has done, though some will claim he should have used Non O visas or long term extensions of stay instead. Right now, he can stay until July 31st, but may then have difficulty staying longer or leaving and reentering Thailand. Time will tell, but most countries seem to be preparing for a long period of heavily restricted entry of foreigners.

I suspect if borders haven't properly re-opened by the end of July, another automatic extension is likely. Therefore, I wonder what the purpose of the OP's post is. Borders are closed and foreigners visas have been extended until late July. What this means is, everyone, the OP's friend included, should be making plans on what to do after July 31. He has to consider the following scenarios:

 

1) borders have re-opened with no restrictions. We're back to normal. Easy. Normal visa rules apply. Consider what he wants to do. Stay in Thailand or go back home? If staying in Thailand, get another visa extension to visit wife, go out for a non-O multi entry or extension of stay.

 

2) borders have re-opened but with some restrictions. These could include covid-19 testing or quarantines. Consider whether this is viable - might have to return home or seek an extension of stay in-country.

 

3) borders have yet to re-open (unlikely, as many sources are indicating they will re-open in June or July in some form): stay put as another automatic extension is likely, though this time it might only be for another month or two not three, since the crisis is easing.

[JackThompson]

22 hours ago, MagnumForce said:

No, the once upon a time helpful and friendly Udon Thani IO.

Sad.  The anti-farang / corruption clique claims another office. 

 

They stopped asking for the cash directly in Jomtien, a few years back - but the agent-office is right next door, in the same parking lot as the office - 15K and no problems for the 90-day Non-O. 

 

A division-level IO gets a piece of the action on these, so could be what happened to the UT office.

 

22 hours ago, MagnumForce said:

You mean that out of spite for going to get the Non-O Visa, they wouldn't process the annual extension in-country?

I don't know if that was the reason, but would not surprise me if it was a factor.  It was 25K to an agent for marriage based 1-yr in Jomtien - at which point, none of those "undocumented requirement" problems or home-visits are reported.  It's 10K more than retirement-based, because marriage-based require the division-level's payout. 

 

Add 5K to 10K for agent-service in Bangkok, though there are additional non-agent paths to the extension available.

 

22 hours ago, MagnumForce said:

Not possible, unfortunately, but thanks for the idea. A wife and three kids to look after, two of whom have school to attend when it opens. 

 

So, it's pay up now or take a gamble on Laos. 

Not sure if a Non-O 90-day could be applied for after your current 'stamped' extension ends - while in the 'automatic covid extension' period.  Seems to vary by office.  Would be nice to "wait and see" - but with some potential risk.