New Zealand city takes down statue of British navy commander

[pineapple01]

My Cave Man ancestors are to blame, bonking folks on the head with clubs. Lets Ban The Flintstones next. Times Change, get over it.

[johnnybangkok]

Well the 'un-pc' advocates are out in force on this one, often with the same tired and frankly nonsense arguments.

Name one instance when history has been forgotten by the removal of what an indigenous population (because it's these people who count in this matter) see as glorification of oppression and genocide? History doesn't just get forgotten because you remove a statue glorifying a person responsible for genocide; there's a thing called books I hear. The argument that we are eradicating history just doesn't hold true under close scrutiny. 

And no democracy isn't going to crumble because a few, inapppropriate statues get taken down. If anything, democracy is strengthened when we realise that the voice of the few can have as much clout as those of the many. Statues get taken down and replaced all the time. Most were erected in Victorian times (in the case of the UK, NZ, Australia etc) and were usually because the subject matter would donate large sums of their ill gotten gains to some worthy cause or another (see Edward Colston) in an attempt to whitewash the fact their their incredible wealth was off the backs of slavery, oppression, genocide etc. The one of John Hamilton is unusual in that it was only erected in 2013 after it was commissioned and donated by Hamiltons ancestors, who, one could argue, are slightly biased in the depiction of their distant relative. Maori's rightly felt that venerating an individual who slaughtered their ancestors and basically stole their land, was inappropriate. I agree and ask how would you think if someone stuck a statue of Hitler up in Trafalgar Square? Not too happy I'm guessing.     

And the argument that we did the 'savages' a favour by colonising them; that's got to be the best one yet. Whilst being murdered and raped, I'm sure they were SUPER happy, probably thinking to themselves 'You know I think this will all work out for the best. I really should be more grateful".

These statues do not represent modern society and I'm sorry that doesn't fit into your 'PC gone mad' agenda but society is moving on and whilst not forgetting the past, there is very little justification to glorify it the way these statues do. 

Keep history alive so we can learn from our mistakes but let's not glorify what shouldn't be glorified and leave statues to those that really deserve them.  

 

 

[Orton Rd]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

We civilized the place.. you mean you robbed it of its raw materials and took their land. Damm talk about revising history. I am amazed at the nationalistic Brits that think colonization is done to civilize people instead of grabbing their land and resources. 

 

Then again it does not surprise me much from the white OAP's on the forum. I admit my country did the same cruel things. Can't call it civilizing people. 

We just did what they had done, but replaced mud huts with proper buildings, superstition with education, waggons with railways and tribal cannibalism with Christianity. Where are all the great Maori monuments to human achievement? they were there long enough, clubs, tattoos and the haka are not major evolutionary developments, the industrial revolution was.

[RuamRudy]

50 minutes ago, Orton Rd said:

We just did what they had done, but replaced mud huts with proper buildings, superstition with education, waggons with railways and tribal cannibalism with Christianity. Where are all the great Maori monuments to human achievement? they were there long enough, clubs, tattoos and the haka are not major evolutionary developments, the industrial revolution was.

You do understand, don't you, that the British empire wasn't founded on benevolent principles? Our forefathers didn't go colonise half the world so that they could spread joy and happiness everywhere they went. If that was the case, the would not have raped and murdered literally millions of people in the process.  

[Orton Rd]

15 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

You do understand, don't you, that the British empire wasn't founded on benevolent principles? Our forefathers didn't go colonise half the world so that they could spread joy and happiness everywhere they went. If that was the case, the would not have raped and murdered literally millions of people in the process.  

You are claiming the British raped and murdered millions? you must have been listening to those BLM marxists.

[JensenZ]

On 6/13/2020 at 12:01 PM, ratcatcher said:

So far, at least, the statue of Captain James Cook in Waimea, Kauai, Hawaii has been spared the ire of the natives. Perhaps they have more sense, after all, it was they who killed him. 

Yes, a reminder of the good deed they did for their Maori brothers. I wonder how long it took for the Maoris to find out.

[xylophone]

19 hours ago, Krataiboy said:

It celebrates the imposition of empire against the will of the indigenous peoples and its removal is a cause to celebrate. 

Not quite right on that point, because the Treaty of Waitangi was negotiated by many Maori chiefs in the North Island and later on around the country, although some were very wary of it.

 

The idea that it gave the Maori the protection of the British Empire and against other colonialists was very appealing for them at the time and it wasn't signed under duress.

 

It was drafted with the intention of establishing a British Governor of New Zealand, recognising Māori ownership of their lands, forests and other possessions, and giving Māori the rights of British subjects (thereby giving them protection of the British Empire, which was welcomed by many Maori leaders).

 

Some of the lands were later bought legally by the British, whilst others were obtained by underhand means/methods, much as has happened around the world, although nowhere near the scale of that of the American Indians.

 

This is part of the history of New Zealand and should remain so.
 

[phetphet]

How do all these people get through their lives? Offended wherever they go by one thing or another. Things that happened, or people that lived hundreds of years ago. And only now they find the voice to complain.

 

Words and phrases must be removed. Movies, books, tv shows must be edited. Offended, offended, offended.

 

Oh what a bland world they wish to live in.

 

 

[xylophone]

7 minutes ago, phetphet said:

Things that happened, or people that lived hundreds of years ago. And only now they find the voice to complain

And what a lot of these complainers don't seem to think about is the fact that many centuries ago (and even further back) powerful countries wanted to expand and seek new lands and riches, so that's exactly what they did and if you really want to take it back to a level of stupidity, then you could blame homo-sapiens for partially wiping out the Neanderthals and I'm sure there are other examples that could be dragged up if one wanted to get into the realms of absurdity.
 

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, Orton Rd said:

You are claiming the British raped and murdered millions? you must have been listening to those BLM marxists.

Why? Do you not like the truth?

[Orton Rd]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

Why? Do you not like the truth?

How about some evidence of millions of rapes? The Maori are almost extinct as far as full bloods go, and it was not due to rape

[Krataiboy]

1 hour ago, xylophone said:

Not quite right on that point, because the Treaty of Waitangi was negotiated by many Maori chiefs in the North Island and later on around the country, although some were very wary of it.

 

The idea that it gave the Maori the protection of the British Empire and against other colonialists was very appealing for them at the time and it wasn't signed under duress.

 

It was drafted with the intention of establishing a British Governor of New Zealand, recognising Māori ownership of their lands, forests and other possessions, and giving Māori the rights of British subjects (thereby giving them protection of the British Empire, which was welcomed by many Maori leaders).

 

Some of the lands were later bought legally by the British, whilst others were obtained by underhand means/methods, much as has happened around the world, although nowhere near the scale of that of the American Indians.

 

This is part of the history of New Zealand and should remain so.
 

Thanks for the interesting history lesson, but the quote you replied to was not mine. No prob - sh-t happens.

[RuamRudy]

14 minutes ago, Orton Rd said:

How about some evidence of millions of rapes? The Maori are almost extinct as far as full bloods go, and it was not due to rape

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_and_Commonwealth_Office_migrated_archives

 

Lots to keep you busy there - this is just from the Kenyan section:

 

Numerous allegations of murder and rape by British military personnel are recorded in the files, including an incident where an African baby was "burnt to death", the "defilement of a young girl"

 

Baring himself was aware of the "extreme brutality" of the sometimes-lethal torture meted out—which included "most drastic" beatings, solitary confinement, starvation, castration, whipping, burning, rape, sodomy, and forceful insertion of objects into orifices—but took no action.

Edited June 14, 2020 by RuamRudy

[xylophone]

39 minutes ago, Krataiboy said:

Thanks for the interesting history lesson, but the quote you replied to was not mine. No prob - sh-t happens.

OOPS, sorry about that....my bad!!

[Baerboxer]

On 6/13/2020 at 8:52 AM, Card said:

except he never actually committed terrorism, only suspected

 

What was he convicted of?

[evadgib]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

You do understand, don't you, that the British empire wasn't founded on benevolent principles? Our forefathers didn't go colonise half the world so that they could spread joy and happiness everywhere they went. If that was the case, the would not have raped and murdered literally millions of people in the process.  

Your lot only managed two abortive forays into Panama prior to begging to join the union you're hell bent on leaving the noo ????

Edited June 14, 2020 by evadgib

[Baerboxer]

On 6/13/2020 at 11:12 AM, JensenZ said:

The British didn't go to New Zealand to make the Maoris "civilized", but to grab land for settlers, at a huge cost to both sides:

 

The New Zealand wars:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Wars

 

At the peak of hostilities in the 1860s, 18,000 British troops, supported by artillery, cavalry and local militia, battled about 4,000 Māori warriors^[8] in what became a gross imbalance of manpower and weaponry.^[9] Although outnumbered, the Māori were able to withstand their enemy with techniques that included anti-artillery bunkers and the use of carefully placed pā, or fortified villages, that allowed them to block their enemy's advance and often inflict heavy losses, yet quickly abandon their positions without significant loss. Guerrilla-style tactics were used by both sides in later campaigns, often fought in dense bush. Over the course of the Taranaki and Waikato campaigns, the lives of about 1,800 Māori and 800 Europeans were lost,^[5] and total Māori losses over the course of all the wars may have exceeded 2,100.

 

It is not the job of colonial powers to interfere with the way of life of indigenous populations or force their moralities upon them. If they chose to eat their enemies after they were conquered in battle, it's their way of life and their business.

 

But at the end of the day, the British didn't go to New Zealand to help Maoris. They were there to grab land and do whatever it took to achieve that purpose. The Maoris were collateral damage. There was absolutely nothing altruistic about colonization.

 

The introduction of the British musket was responsible for the slaughter of many tribes that didn't have them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Portugal, Spain, Netherlands, France, Britain, Belgium, Germany (Jonnie-come-latey's as they weren't a country till 1870) and Italy (lesser extent) all carved out colonial empires to exploit other countries. Grab land, minerals, cheap produce, and force expensive exports on them. 

 

It was always about economy, power and money. The religious fanatics added conversion of beliefs to the agenda too. 

 

Some countries, NZ, Australia, Canada, US, were changed beyond recognition and remained changed after gaining "independence" for the new settlers, not the original inhabitants. Others returned to "native" ownership.

[evadgib]

21 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Portugal, Spain, Netherlands, France, Britain, Belgium, Germany (Jonnie-come-latey's as they weren't a country till 1870) and Italy (lesser extent) all carved out colonial empires to exploit other countries. Grab land, minerals, cheap produce, and force expensive exports on them. 

 

It was always about economy, power and money. The religious fanatics added conversion of beliefs to the agenda too. 

 

Some countries, NZ, Australia, Canada, US, were changed beyond recognition and remained changed after gaining "independence" for the new settlers, not the original inhabitants. Others returned to "native" ownership.

None of which thrived particularly well afterwards, contrary to popular belief.

[car720]

On 6/13/2020 at 10:42 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

It's all about being offended now.

Better to say it is all about being entitled now.

[ratcatcher]

4 hours ago, JensenZ said:

Yes, a reminder of the good deed they did for their Maori brothers. I wonder how long it took for the Maoris to find out.

I imagine Kaleiopu sent an email to his Maori brothers as soon as Cook had been murdered.

Too bad you regard Cook's death as a good deed. I know there were serious confrontations with the Maori and that in retrospect is sad but fact., but Cook's seamanship and knowledge led to the eventual settlement of the Islands by Europeans.

[tonbridgebrit]

Them people in New Zealand should remember that they're mainly British people living in New Zealand.  Taking down this statue is a silly thing to do. Removing it confirms the sense of guilt, that New Zealand was built on mass murder and mass theft of land.  
 

Edited June 14, 2020 by tonbridgebrit
missed sentance

[RJRS1301]

17 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

We just did what they had done, but replaced mud huts with proper buildings, superstition with education, waggons with railways and tribal cannibalism with Christianity. Where are all the great Maori monuments to human achievement? they were there long enough, clubs, tattoos and the haka are not major evolutionary developments, the industrial revolution was.

Oh, and of course christianity was soo good, ask all the abused women and children, the plundered valuables, the suppression of culture, should you put a memorial up for all the abused or the abusers?

 

[JensenZ]

13 hours ago, ratcatcher said:

I imagine Kaleiopu sent an email to his Maori brothers as soon as Cook had been murdered.

Too bad you regard Cook's death as a good deed. I know there were serious confrontations with the Maori and that in retrospect is sad but fact., but Cook's seamanship and knowledge led to the eventual settlement of the Islands by Europeans.

In this case I'm considering Cook's death from the POV of Maoris, and Australian Aboriginals, not the settlers. It's a pity you view everything from one perspective. Also you're viewing it from the perspective of a person living in 2020. Go back and consider it from a circa 1770 viewpoint. It's easy to look back and come to the decision that everything worked out great when you're living in 2020, but a lot of very bad s**t happened in the years between. By the looks of it, with BLM protesting taking off around the world and historical statues coming down all over the place, bad sh*t is about to happen again... as if covid-19 wasn't bad enough already.

 

However, if Cook hadn't claimed NZ and Australia for the British, another country would have at some point in history. Either way, European settlers would have gone there. The only difference is which language they would be speaking now.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/13/2020 at 5:48 PM, xylophone said:

Tearing down statues is not going to change anything.

I doubt the sort that tears down public property want to change anything as they probably, IMO, have no idea of what they want it to become.

Intelligent people don't riot and destroy things.

IMO it's just an opportunity to break things because they are vandals.

[RuamRudy]

20 hours ago, evadgib said:

Your lot only managed two abortive forays into Panama prior to begging to join the union you're hell bent on leaving the noo ????

Oh so very off topic and so very historically incorrect. Don't worry, I have a feeling that the matter will come to the surface soon enough and we can discuss properly ????