Message to the Thai Authorities

[richard_smith237]

32 minutes ago, 473geo said:

People who are encouraging, and pursue a rule change to suit their own personal agenda would not be at the top of my list for home quarantine

 

In the interest of balance I would also like to see restrictions opened up for Retirees, Parents of Thai Children, those with ties to Thailand, Yellow Tabien Baan house books, owners of Property etc I think it is highly unfair that these folk have somehow ’slipped though the gaps’ in the decision making process. 

 

I wonder if I wouldn’t have the same opinion if I were in Thailand with my family. I think I might.

 

 

Additionally, I’m not under any delusion that any discussion we have on here could impact or pursuit any rule change to suit my own personal agenda - However, while under lockdown waiting to return to Thailand there is little else to do, discussions such as this help pass the time, while also educating me on points I may not yet have considered such as the difficulty deviating from a ‘one size fits all’ approach to quarantine. 

 

 

Of course the biggest issues with return is the bottle neck caused by lack of flight availability for returnees and the delays in obtaining the Certificate of Entry approval. 

 

Many stuck overseas could have already returned to Thailand and carried out their 15 day quarantine period if flights were made available. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bwpage3]

On 7/4/2020 at 8:45 PM, checkered flag said:

He feels entitled and wants to cut to the front of the line. He left his wife and family here and now he regrets it. If he wanted to be with them he should have taken them to the UK with him. Now he complains he's not first in line. 

No, that is not it at all.

 

Anyone separated from their family for months would try anything to get re-united.

[KhaoYai]

9 minutes ago, 473geo said:

So you added a 'what about' whine

Protecting the nation quarantine is already in place, guys are looking for 'short stay home quarantine' because the current system does not fit their agenda, nothing to do with 'protecting the nation'

 

If agenda means seeing your family, correct. However, if you think that those wishing to see their families whilst accepting that Thailand has its own desires is a personal agenda, you must lead a very sad life.

 

Protect the nation - but its OK if you're a businessman or in the US military.

Edited July 8, 2020 by KhaoYai

[KhaoYai]

1 minute ago, bwpage3 said:

No, that is not it at all.

 

Anyone separated from their family for months would try anything to get re-united.

Thanks for your comment - I already replied to his comment, he is totally wrong, I did not 'leave my family' - I went to work to support my family.

[vinny41]

2 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

If that is the case, why do they allow those who are able to accept state quarantine to only do 14 days? Home quarantine, when an option was an option for Thai people - not people who could be prevented from seeing their families for a long time if they failed to comply.

World Health Organization guidelines for quarantine is 14 days. If  people u want to see their families on a regular basis I sure they have options, those options may not be the person / family preferred options and unlikely to include Thailand as a base but they have options

and I sure if a foreigner broke home quarantine and was banned from Thailand for 1 year would seek legal Regress to have the ban removed or overturned

[473geo]

1 minute ago, KhaoYai said:

If agenda means seeing your family correct. However, if you think that those wishing to see their families whilst accepting that Thailand has its own desires is a personal agenda, you must lead a very sad life.

Pathetic response, I'm patient, thoughtful and evaluate carefully. I am capable of making assessments without emotion or self interest. Thailand is safer without foreigners arriving on aircraft and being trusted into 'home quarantine' it really is that simple.

 

[KhaoYai]

2 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

World Health Organization guidelines for quarantine is 14 days. If  people u want to see their families on a regular basis I sure they have options, those options may not be the person / family preferred options and unlikely to include Thailand as a base but they have options

and I sure if a foreigner broke home quarantine and was banned from Thailand for 1 year would seek legal Regress to have the ban removed or overturned

With respect - you are making general assertions and know nothing of people's personal circumstances. I for example bought my house in Thailand 6 years ago, I have been a regular visitor for 18 years.  My wife has no wish (and indeed cannot) to live in another country. When we met she had every reason to believe that I saw my future as living in Thailand and that is why she agreed to marry me - we don't have an 'option'!

 

As for legal redress? I very much doubt that Thailand will have any legislation in place that can be used and would almost certainly refuse to recognise any international legislation such as Article 8 of the EU Human Rights Convention that they are not bound by.

[richard_smith237]

26 minutes ago, 473geo said:

30 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Are you suggesting that those married to Thai citizens and those with families are 'pusuing their own personal agenda'?

 

If you are, then you are correct - we are! Who's agenda do you suggest we pusue?

 

Barmy!

How about the agenda of those who, while trying to be humane, are trying to protect a nation by implementing systems to prevent an imported resurgence of covid in Thailand ????

 

This is where I believe my points become valid. 

 

Is Thailands water tight approach, realistic or practical?

 

Additionally, on a bigger picture I wonder if the nation is being protected at all.

No new cases for 40 days ‘looks good’ and has great Political Optics over the immediate future, however, Thailand has to open up at some point, it is then I wonder if Thailand faces additional risk. 

 

There are other questions: 

 

1) Is Thailand waiting for the Vaccine?

2) Can a vaccine be created, how effective is it?

3) Will a vaccine work on a SARS-CoV-2 virus which has evolved?

4) Will Thai people have been isolated from potential immunity, such that when it does open up the impact could be more devastating. 

5) Will the damage to the economy and tourism sector be able to recover?

 

Most importantly: Would insisting that every visitor has a Covid-19 test (and certification) prior to taking their departing flight not eradicate most of the risk???

 

It seems as though the current ‘cure’ is not only worse than the disease, but also all its doing is delaying the disease. 

 

 

I wonder whether or not the ‘water tight’ approach is more detrimental to Thailand (on a whole) than taking a more moderate approach and allowing visitors and tourists, retirees etc IF they have all had a Covid-19 Test (Negative) prior to departure. 

 

I’m wondering if such measures limit the risk of the spread of covid to within acceptable boundaries. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by richard_smith237

[KhaoYai]

4 minutes ago, 473geo said:

Pathetic response, I'm patient, thoughtful and evaluate carefully. I am capable of making assessments without emotion or self interest. Thailand is safer without foreigners arriving on aircraft and being trusted into 'home quarantine' it really is that simple.

 

Here's another 'pathetic response' for you. You seem to be conveniently ignoring the fact that foreigners are arriving without the requirement for any form of quarantine already - businessmen and the US military!

[473geo]

2 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Here's another 'pathetic response' for you. You seem to be conveniently ignoring the fact that foreigners are arriving without the requirement for any form of quarantine already - businessmen and the US military!

Yep I don't make excuses, if the businessmen are just travelling around with no controls they are a risk, as are the military if they do the same

Why seek to compound the danger by 'trusting' hundreds of foreigners from heavily infected countries to 'home quarantine?

[richard_smith237]

8 minutes ago, 473geo said:

Pathetic response, I'm patient, thoughtful and evaluate carefully. I am capable of making assessments without emotion or self interest. Thailand is safer without foreigners arriving on aircraft and being trusted into 'home quarantine' it really is that simple.

 

 

 

Where do you draw the line? If that is your outlook, Thailand is safer without anyone arriving, there have been quarantine mistakes and there will be more - If your argument is to hold, why not just stop everyone from coming for the foreseeable future until the Virus is either completely eradicated from the face of the earth or a proven 95% effective vaccine is created ????

 

Anything less than 100% total ban on anyone coming into Thailand brings with it some risk. 

 

 

Is the ‘risk tipping point’ the difference between State Quarantine and ASQ and home quarantine for all arrivals (Thai’s and foreigners btw, home quarantine for foreigners only was never the argument)?

 

Is this a reasonable ‘risk tipping point’ or are there other options being discussed such as home quarantine effective enough?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[473geo]

9 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

This is where I believe my points become valid. 

 

Is Thailands water tight approach, realistic or practical?

 

Additionally, on a bigger picture I wonder if the nation is being protected at all.

No new cases for 40 days ‘looks good’ and has great Political Optics over the immediate future, however, Thailand has to open up at some point, it is then I wonder if Thailand faces additional risk. 

 

There are other questions: 

 

1) Is Thailand waiting for the Vaccine?

2) Can a vaccine be created, how effective is it?

3) Will a vaccine work on a SARS-CoV-2 virus which has evolved?

4) Will Thai people have been isolated from potential immunity, such that when it does open up the impact could be more devastating. 

5) Will the damage to the economy and tourism sector be able to recover?

 

Most importantly: Would insisting that every visitor has a Covid-19 test (and certification) prior to taking their departing flight not eradicate most of the risk???

 

It seems as though the current ‘cure’ is not only worse than the disease, but also all its doing is delaying the disease. 

 

 

I wonder whether or not the ‘water tight’ approach is more detrimental to Thailand (on a whole) than taking a more moderate approach and allowing visitors and tourists, retirees etc IF they have all had a Covid-19 Test (Negative) prior to departure. 

 

I’m wondering if such measures limit the risk of the spread of covid to within acceptable boundaries. 

 

 

You have noted that the travel bubbles have currently burst, while your sympathetic approach to allowing entry to any foreigner with any documented 'connection' to Thailand is displayed in the thread

[richard_smith237]

7 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

14 minutes ago, 473geo said:

Pathetic response, I'm patient, thoughtful and evaluate carefully. I am capable of making assessments without emotion or self interest. Thailand is safer without foreigners arriving on aircraft and being trusted into 'home quarantine' it really is that simple.

 

Here's another 'pathetic response' for you. You seem to be conveniently ignoring the fact that foreigners are arriving without the requirement for any form of quarantine already - businessmen and the US military!

 

That was one visit (US Military arriving for a meeting), the Emergency Decree allows for this (rightly or wrongly), it is also an isolated situation and one which could be controlled by the Military. I’m sure the US military ensured their staff were fully tested prior to travelling and entering Thailand - the risk of outcry would be too high otherwise. 

 

Thus: I don’t think this ‘example’ is a viable one for the purposes of the ‘quarantine’ discussion.

 

The reality is everyone else arriving in Thailand, Thai’s, Work Permit holders, etc are expected to carry out 15 days quarantine. 

[richard_smith237]

1 minute ago, 473geo said:

You have noted that the travel bubbles have currently burst, while your sympathetic approach to allowing entry to any foreigner with any documented 'connection' to Thailand is displayed in the thread

You've lost me there geo...   can you explain your point a little more pls?

[from the home of CC]

there's just too many countries whose citizens exhibit a complete lack of societal responsibility, they cannot be entrusted to put others before themselves. This is one clear lesson being displayed daily..

[473geo]

5 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

 

Where do you draw the line? If that is your outlook, Thailand is safer without anyone arriving, there have been quarantine mistakes and there will be more - If your argument is to hold, why not just stop everyone from coming for the foreseeable future until the Virus is either completely eradicated from the face of the earth or a proven 95% effective vaccine is created ????

 

Anything less than 100% total ban on anyone coming into Thailand brings with it some risk. 

 

 

Is the ‘risk tipping point’ the difference between State Quarantine and ASQ and home quarantine for all arrivals (Thai’s and foreigners btw, home quarantine for foreigners only was never the argument)?

 

Is this a reasonable ‘risk tipping point’ or are there other options being discussed such as home quarantine effective enough?

 

Thailand is slowly opening up on a domestic level, this where they initially seek to kick start the economy

I would suggest this action also buys time to evaluate the chances of a second wave being imported. International flights are scarce, there are, by all accounts a multitude of Thai people attempting to return.

Surely it is prudent, while these initiatives are progressing, to avoid the complication of trying to monitor thousands of foreigners, returning from infected areas, located all over the country in 'home quarantine'

 

[KhaoYai]

25 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

This is where I believe my points become valid. 

Richard, there is one common thread that can be found in a great many posts on Thai Visa. That is that some people will go to any lengths to defend their statements even when they are proved wrong.  People are of course entitled to their own opinions but defending them for the hell of it is ridiculous.

 

There is no such thing as a reasoned discussion here - just a bunch of people who are driven by a misplaced notion of self importance.  As evidence of my assertion you will note that when you submit a post, they come back at you with items that are debatable but ignore points you make that are correct and vaild.

 

I've had it with this lot - maybe their aim is simply to wind people up? I really don't know but without repeating everything I've said in my previous posts - I stand by everything I've said.

 

To summarise, I see no reason why home quarantine would not work. Conditions would have to be put in place to ensure that - someone suggested a bond, that would help.  I don't think its right to compare foreigners home quarantining with the Thai's that were told to earlier this year - all that Thai's risked was a fine.

 

I thank you for all of your helpful comments and support but to coin a phrase, 'you're wasting your time' - there is no compassion here.  I would delete this entire thread if it was possible - I'm out.

Edited July 8, 2020 by KhaoYai

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, from the home of CC said:

there's just too many countries whose citizens exhibit a complete lack of societal responsibility, they cannot be entrusted to put others before themselves. This is one clear lesson being displayed daily..

That is the whole point people can't be trusted we have seen that and that is why home quarantine is not an option. 

 

As Richard said maybe a test first, then one again combined with a short stay in state quarantine followed by home quarantine with heavy fines (maybe total ban from Thailand if quarantine is broken). 

 

But home quarantine alone is just not something that would work. 

[robblok]

1 minute ago, KhaoYai said:

Richard, there is one common thread that can be found in a great many posts on Thai Visa. That is that some people will go to any lengths to defend their statements even when they are proved wrong.  People are of course entitled to their own opinions but defending them for the hell of it is ridiculous.

 

There is no such thing as a reasoned discussion here - just a bunch of people who are driven by a misplaced notion of self importance.  As evidence of my assertion you will not that when you submit a post, they come back at you with items that are debatable but ignore points you make that are correct and vaild.

 

I've had it with this lot - maybe their aim is simply to wind people up? I really don't know but without repeating everything I've said in my previous posts - I stand by everything I've said.

 

To summarise, I see no reason why home quarantine would not work. Conditions would have to be put in place to ensure that - someone suggested a bond, that would help.  I don't think its right to compare foreigners home quarantining with the Thai's that were told to earlier this year - all that Thai's risked was a fine.

 

I thank you for all of your helpful comments and support but to coin a phrase, 'you're wasting your time' - there is no compassion here.  I would delete this entire thread if it was possible - I'm out.

Others like me disagree and its not to wind you up. Home quarantine (without any additions don't work). Maybe with tests and a short stay in state quarantine and heavy fines would work. Maybe a bounty system where neighbors can collect if they find you breaking quarantine. 

 

There is not a country in the world where home quarantine has proven sufficient and now you think that foreigners would be different then the Thais that were made to home quarantine. That is total b.s. without harsh checks ANYBODY will break the rules. Its a law of nature. 

[473geo]

19 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

You've lost me there geo...   can you explain your point a little more pls?

Travel bubbles have been canned for now

 

In post 91 you sympathetically seek widen the entry level requirements

[KhaoYai]

6 minutes ago, robblok said:

There is not a country in the world where home quarantine has proven sufficient and now you think that foreigners would be different then the Thais that were made to home quarantine. That is total b.s. without harsh checks ANYBODY will break the rules. Its a law of nature. 

This is my final post and I make it in order to illustrate the points in my previous post.

 

I have said more than once that conditions would need to be in place and that I would accept them. Yes I do think Foreigners would be different to Thai's and I've also said why. You choose to ignore both those points - which, together with others - is one of the main points of my previous post.

[robblok]

8 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

This is my final post and I make it in order to illustrate the points in my previous post.

 

I have said more than once that conditions would need to be in place and that I would accept them. Yes I do think Foreigners would be different to Thai's and I've also said why. You choose to ignore both those points - which, together with others - is one of the main points of my previous post.

Good that you leave because you mangled my point where i said that there should be other conditions. I don't believe that foreigners are any different from Thais everyone is irresponsible if there are no checks. Before the UK and my country drinking and driving was common just like in Thailand. Only with enforcement did it change. You seem to think that foreigners are better by virtue of being a foreigners. I find that quite racist to be honest. 

[richard_smith237]

43 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Richard, there is one common thread that can be found in a great many posts on Thai Visa. That is that some people will go to any lengths to defend their statements even when they are proved wrong.  People are of course entitled to their own opinions but defending them for the hell of it is ridiculous.

 

There is no such thing as a reasoned discussion here - just a bunch of people who are driven by a misplaced notion of self importance.  As evidence of my assertion you will note that when you submit a post, they come back at you with items that are debatable but ignore points you make that are correct and vaild.

 

I've had it with this lot - maybe their aim is simply to wind people up? I really don't know but without repeating everything I've said in my previous posts - I stand by everything I've said.

 

To summarise, I see no reason why home quarantine would not work. Conditions would have to be put in place to ensure that - someone suggested a bond, that would help.  I don't think its right to compare foreigners home quarantining with the Thai's that were told to earlier this year - all that Thai's risked was a fine.

 

I thank you for all of your helpful comments and support but to coin a phrase, 'you're wasting your time' - there is no compassion here.  I would delete this entire thread if it was possible - I'm out.

 

The whole point of a discussion topic is to share ideas, discussions and present arguments. If done maturely they are a good source of information and help others see things from a different perspective. 

 

Another thread on which I have contributed has helped me see things from a different perspective such that I have adjusted the approach I am taking to re-entering Thailand and securing the CoE. 

 

This thread is of interest to be because it helps me understand the thought processes of others outside of my situation. 

 

I can see how ‘home quarantine’ may not work, its been explained to me in this thread. However, I do think the existing measures in place (Covid-19 checks, pre and post flight) are sufficient to minimise the risk. 

 

I also now have a better understanding from the perspective of those within Thailand of why the Government may want a 'one size fits all approach’ which is easier to police - Its clear the decision making process is one borne of fear of criticism should there be any imported cases rather than one borne of evaluating the actual risks critically. 

 

I also see how it would be unfair to allow foreigners to home quarantine, but not Thai’s - that would be incredibly unfair. Most of the Thai’s I know have a better house than I do !!!! 

 

If home quarantine is a viable option, it must be a viable option for everyone because differentiation based on nationality or socio-economics or any other reason is simply wrong. 

 

If home quarantine is a viable option its because the risks have been fully evaluated with intelligent balance. 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by richard_smith237

[HashBrownHarry]

19 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

I’m happy to conform with whichever regulations I have to if it means I can rejoin my family. I am already holding an ASQ booking. 

 

However, there are scores of Thai’s waiting to get back into Thailand, yet are held back by the bottleneck created by the availability of quarantine facilities (and flights). 

 

Offering Thai's the option of Home Quarantine (within very strict guidelines under the threat of strict penalties for breaking quarantine) would be a suitable solution to the ongoing burden of returning Thai’s to Thailand. 

 

 

If given the option I would of course prefer to isolate at home once I have confirmed with a pre-flight Covid-19 test and another on arrival that I am not carrying Covid-19. Of course, it's still possible I picked up the virus somewhere, but the chances of that are minimal and fall within what I would classify as acceptable risk. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This bottle neck of thai's you speak of wanting home, is that in every country ( even with low cases ) or just the high case countries?

 

Why are all these Thai people so desperate to return home when they don't know when they may be able to return to the lives ( probably way better than Thailand ) in other countries?

[HashBrownHarry]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

In the interest of balance I would also like to see restrictions opened up for Retirees, Parents of Thai Children, those with ties to Thailand, Yellow Tabien Baan house books, owners of Property etc I think it is highly unfair that these folk have somehow ’slipped though the gaps’ in the decision making process. 

 

I wonder if I wouldn’t have the same opinion if I were in Thailand with my family. I think I might.

 

 

Additionally, I’m not under any delusion that any discussion we have on here could impact or pursuit any rule change to suit my own personal agenda - However, while under lockdown waiting to return to Thailand there is little else to do, discussions such as this help pass the time, while also educating me on points I may not yet have considered such as the difficulty deviating from a ‘one size fits all’ approach to quarantine. 

 

 

Of course the biggest issues with return is the bottle neck caused by lack of flight availability for returnees and the delays in obtaining the Certificate of Entry approval. 

 

Many stuck overseas could have already returned to Thailand and carried out their 15 day quarantine period if flights were made available. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Surely this bottleneck you mention will soon sort itself out when the airports open 31st July as expected?

[richard_smith237]

2 minutes ago, HashBrownHarry said:

This bottle neck of thai's you speak of wanting home, is that in every country ( even with low cases ) or just the high case countries?

There are a lot of Thai’s waiting to get home to Thailand who are currently in the UK. The two existing repatriation flights this month from LHR to BKK are full. 

 

I’m not sure of other countries or whether or not the repatriation flights are fully booked up.

 

2 minutes ago, HashBrownHarry said:

Why are all these Thai people so desperate to return home when they don't know when they may be able to return to the lives ( probably way better than Thailand ) in other countries?

 

[Probably way better than Thailand] - not worth responding to. 

 

 

 

 

 

[HashBrownHarry]

1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said:

There are a lot of Thai’s waiting to get home to Thailand who are currently in the UK. The two existing repatriation flights this month from LHR to BKK are full. 

 

I’m not sure of other countries or whether or not the repatriation flights are fully booked up.

 

 

[Probably way better than Thailand] - not worth responding to. 

 

 

 

 

 

you mentioned 3000 Thai's, this is from UK only?

 

Most people relocate to other countries for a better lifestyle, fail to understand your response to that?

[richard_smith237]

1 minute ago, HashBrownHarry said:

Surely this bottleneck you mention will soon sort itself out when the airports open 31st July as expected?

Thats like saying, ‘this bottle-neck’ will sort itself out when travel and the world get back to normal. 

 

Do we know thats going to happen?

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1171742-thailand-travel-bubble-in-chaos-plans-for-international-flights-between-participating-countries-put-off-indefinitely/

 

I know that refers to ’travel bubbles’ however the situation is dynamic. Who knows if there is a second wave and Thailand holds the lock-out. 

 

[HashBrownHarry]

Just now, richard_smith237 said:

Thats like saying, ‘this bottle-neck’ will sort itself out when travel and the world get back to normal. 

 

Do we know thats going to happen?

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1171742-thailand-travel-bubble-in-chaos-plans-for-international-flights-between-participating-countries-put-off-indefinitely/

 

I know that refers to ’travel bubbles’ however the situation is dynamic. Who knows if there is a second wave and Thailand holds the lock-out. 

 

It's nothing like saying that, it's common sense, when the airport opens there will ( of course ) be more flights, what's hard to understand about that?

[richard_smith237]

2 minutes ago, HashBrownHarry said:

you mentioned 3000 Thai's, this is from UK only?

I didn’t mention that - you have my post mixed up with another. 

 

2 minutes ago, HashBrownHarry said:

Most people relocate to other countries for a better lifestyle, fail to understand your response to that?

Because the response would be subjective and argumentative - we don’t know that most Thai’s have a better life in the UK or elsewhere. Many travel for work, or contract positions etc which have since ended.