German court convicts 93-year old man for Nazi crimes

[Logosone]

17 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Not exactly. 

He volunteered for the SS. 

That was never required. 

Another way to look at it. 

Five cars are speeding on a road. 

The cops stop one of them. 

Those are the breaks. 

 

Bruno Dey never volunteered for the SS.

 

He was conscripted into the SS.

[Logosone]

5 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

Some years ago I read an absolutely spine chilling book titled "The Good Old Days". It was an account of the Holocaust in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union, compiled from interviews with and accounts of the activities of some of the perpetrators. What was absolutely clear was that participation in and knowledge of the killings and the whole process was widespread, if not universal, thought the German Military. They knew what had been done, they new what retribution was coming. Why do you think that such large elements of the German armed forces fought so desperately up to the end.

 

If this fellow was a guard, irrespective of his age, volunteer or conscript, he knew what was going on in the camp. The machine gun in his tower wasn't just for him to lean on!

 

Guilt is guilt, irrespective of his age. The court showed mercy in its verdict, mercy which was denied to the thousands who died in the camp he guarded.

Knowledge of the holocaust was certainly not universal in the German military.

 

If you read Richard Evans, he makes clear that German documentation went to great lengths to disguise mass killings.  Why use the term "Special treatment" if not to hide what was actually meant.

 

Dey may have heard rumours of gas chambers, but it was war time. A lot of the talk about the holocaust would have been dismissed as propaganda.

 

Only 0.11% of the German military were convicted of war crimes. Those involved were an incredibly small minority.

 

Dey was not guilty of anything. He was a tower guard. He killed nobody. Yet he is convicted of 5000 plus murders? And nobody bats an eyelid?

[galenflagler]

10 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Bruno Dey never volunteered for the SS.

 

He was conscripted into the SS.

At the trial in January a historian testified that Mr Dey was sent to the camp initially as a Wehrmacht soldier and did not join the SS until September 1944. So, it is argued, he could have asked for a transfer to another unit before becoming part of the SS mass murder machine.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52753507

[galenflagler]

13 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Knowledge of the holocaust was certainly not universal in the German military.

 

If you read Richard Evans, he makes clear that German documentation went to great lengths to disguise mass killings.  Why use the term "Special treatment" if not to hide what was actually meant.

 

Dey may have heard rumours of gas chambers, but it was war time. A lot of the talk about the holocaust would have been dismissed as propaganda.

 

Only 0.11% of the German military were convicted of war crimes. Those involved were an incredibly small minority.

 

Dey was not guilty of anything. He was a tower guard. He killed nobody. Yet he is convicted of 5000 plus murders? And nobody bats an eyelid?

As a guard there, Dey said he frequently was directed to watch over prisoner labour crews working outside the camp.

He acknowledged hearing screams from the camp's gas chambers and watching as corpses were taken to be burned, but he said he never fired his weapon and once allowed a group to smuggle meat from a dead horse they'd discovered back into the camp.

https://www.euronews.com/2020/07/23/nazi-concentration-camp-guard-bruno-dey-93-convicted-in-germany

[The Barmbeker]

46 minutes ago, nausea said:

Sartre said, controversially, that the French people were responsible for WW2 cos they did nothing to stop it - so who's responsible for the holocaust? Some 93 year old guy, who was 17 at the time; obviously not, his influence on events was minimal. He's a scapegoat for German collective guilt. There was a whole society behind him. 

He was not charged with "being responsible for the holocaust"!

[stevenl]

12 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Knowledge of the holocaust was certainly not universal in the German military.

<snip>

The German military was involved in many war atrocities, see e.g. the Wikipedia link I gave earlier.

The Holocaust was well known in Germany, see e.g. the diary I linked to earlier.

 

You're attempting to absolve German civilians and military of knowledge they did possess.

 

Sorry for the messed up quote, the text 'The German military...earlier' is mine.

[CorpusChristie]

23 minutes ago, Logosone said:

 

 

Dey was not guilty of anything. He was a tower guard. He killed nobody. Yet he is convicted of 5000 plus murders? And nobody bats an eyelid?

He didnt get convicted of any murders, he got convicted of "helping" 5000 murders and he only got a a slap on the wrists , a suspended sentence

[JustAnotherHun]

Historical research proves clearly:

 

1. Until deep in the ww2 no one was conscriptet into the SS with the exception of some "Volksdeutsche". And even they had the right to choose the Wehrmacht and go to the front instead of becoming a SS member.

2. Even in 1944 young men could alternatively choose the Wehrmacht.

3. There is not one single evidence that SS-members who refused to take part in the killings were shot or even punished.

4. Even the killing unit "Hamburger Polizeibataillon 101" did not force their staff to join the killings. No one who decided not to kill ever was punished.

Edited July 25, 2020 by JustAnotherHun

[galenflagler]

26 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Knowledge of the holocaust was certainly not universal in the German military.

 

If you read Richard Evans, he makes clear that German documentation went to great lengths to disguise mass killings.  Why use the term "Special treatment" if not to hide what was actually meant.

False:

"For some years after the end of the war, Germans themselves explained their inaction by claiming they had not known about it at the time. But a great mass of research, most of it by German historians, since the 1960s has shown this claim to be false."

https://www.richardjevans.com/lectures/ordinary-germans-final-solution/

[Opl]

22 minutes ago, Logosone said:

 

Dey was not guilty of anything. He was a tower guard. He killed nobody. Yet he is convicted of 5000 plus murders? And nobody bats an eyelid?

"As a result of the Demjanjuk precedent, guards who worked at death camps could be charged with abetting, contributing to, or being complicit in the killings that took place there."

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/5/130507-nazi-war-criminal-holocaust-auschwitz-hans-lipschis-simon-wiesenthal-center-demjanjuk/

 

[johnray]

The Nazis won the second world war.  They killed the most people.  This guy should be rewarded.  I think that's how war works.

Edited July 25, 2020 by johnray

[stevenl]

54 minutes ago, galenflagler said:

False:

"For some years after the end of the war, Germans themselves explained their inaction by claiming they had not known about it at the time. But a great mass of research, most of it by German historians, since the 1960s has shown this claim to be false."

https://www.richardjevans.com/lectures/ordinary-germans-final-solution/

Quite a few links to this effect have been given here already, but he keeps denying and sticking his head in the sand.

[galenflagler]

5 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Quite a few links to this effect have been given here already, but he keeps denying and sticking his head in the sand.

Since he specifically cited Richard Evans, I think that the evidence I offered is particularly damning.

[teacherclaire]

At least he's wearing a mask. Time to cut off his Bratwurst. 

[Morch]

13 hours ago, Logosone said:

No, the number of 20,000 people actually convicted of war crimes is not a "total meaningless number".

 

It's a very important number. It is the number of people who were actually found guilty of war crimes based on facts.

 

As opposed to speculations by baby boomers who weren't there.

 

Even if we allow for the fact that Germany was an occupied nation, that the judicial structures were put in place by the allies, the people put in place to administer justice, were the result of victors' justice. Even if the fairness of the trials can be seriously questioned. The fact remains, these were courts of law where facts were decided upon. And in these courts 20,000 people were found guilty. That is only 0.11 percent of the 18 million who served in the Wehrmacht.

 

Even if you were to take the estimate of 200,000, which were never found guilty but which some historians have made, which is obviously wildly overblown as it includes people like Dey who were mere security guards and not involved in any killing, even that number would only be 1 per cent of the Wehrmacht and 0.25 per cent of the German population at the time.

 

So whilst many people would have known, namely those involved, 20,000 or 200,000, that is only 0.025 or 0.25 per cent of the German population, clearly the very very vast majority of Germans did not know about actual killings of jews first hand. If they would have heard such rumours in a time of war many would have ascribed them to war time propaganda. Even AFTER the war many ALLIED people did not believe the holocaust accounts. Even DURING the war many allied people didn't believe the accounts;

 

"To wit, one item that’s part of the USHMM exhibition shows public opinion polls demonstrating that while half of U.S. respondents in 1943 thought the fact that 2 million Jewish Europeans had been murdered was just a rumor..."

 

https://time.com/5327279/ushmm-americans-and-the-holocaust/

 

So if even the population in Allied countries was inclined to view accounts of the holocaust as rumour, how much more inclined would Germans have been to dismiss this as propaganda during war-time?

 

It's almost like we are trying to make up for this initial disbelief by convicting people like Dey of 5000 plus murders, who did not murder anyone, 75 years after the fact. How anyone can think it's okay that Dey who was a 17 year old tower guard who did not murder anyone is convicted of murdering 5000 plus people which he never murdered, I will never know.

 

 

 

 

"As opposed to speculations by baby boomers who weren't there."

 

Whereas your posts are based on first-hand experience?

 

[herfiehandbag]

6 hours ago, Logosone said:

Knowledge of the holocaust was certainly not universal in the German military.

 

If you read Richard Evans, he makes clear that German documentation went to great lengths to disguise mass killings.  Why use the term "Special treatment" if not to hide what was actually meant.

 

Dey may have heard rumours of gas chambers, but it was war time. A lot of the talk about the holocaust would have been dismissed as propaganda.

 

Only 0.11% of the German military were convicted of war crimes. Those involved were an incredibly small minority.

 

Dey was not guilty of anything. He was a tower guard. He killed nobody. Yet he is convicted of 5000 plus murders? And nobody bats an eyelid?

In the late 1970s early 1980s I spent three years (as part of a much longer career), as a British Soldier, based in a place called Celle, a small town between Hannover and Luneburg in Lower Saxony. Perhaps slightly unusually amongst my peers, (even then I was regarded as a dangerous radical) I made some efforts to interact with the local community. I spoke some German from school, and worked hard to improve it. I spent several months - the best part of a year - enthusiastically chasing the affections of a (gorgeous) local girl, the daughter of a "senior and well regarded" member of the community - her family name prefixed by "Von". I joined the local Model Railway Club, based in an old signal box at the main railway station. 

 

Amongst all the Germans (of the generation who had lived/served during the war) the recurrent mantra was "of course we knew nothing of all that". Information was much less freely available back then (no internet) and so I accepted that at face value.

 

Celle is an important railway junction. The railway station and yards lie within the area of the town. One of the branch lines runs to Bergen Hohne, a few kilometres away, and then known as Bergen Belsen. The trains carrying their tragic cargoes to that camp would have been marshalled in those yards, and run through the station and out through the suburbs of the town. In early 1945, during an air raid on the railway yards, a large number of Jews, bound for Belsen, escaped from a train and hid in the heathlands and pine forests to the North and West of Celle. What followed was known as "The Great Celle Rabbit Hunt". The adult and teenage population of the town enthusiastically hunted down the escaped inmates. Some were beaten to death, most  were returned to the camps, marched through the streets. Their pitiful state could hardly have gone unnoticed. At the time I knew nothing of this - it was never mentioned. The Internet has allowed it to be known now. 

 

Now I don't think that the entire community must carry endless guilt for this - I am sure that the lovely Julianna (ah such memories!) would be horrified to know of it - but it was, I am now sure, a secret kept by her father, and her uncles (whom I met) and the old boys with whom I spent such happy times running model trains! It was most certainly not an "unknown". That, and the knowledge of what happened throughout the sorry mess which was the Third Reich must be admitted. Only then, and even now, can that guilt be expunged. Pretending that no-one knew, or that there were comparable atrocities, or that it is exaggerated (yes I have read David Irving's spittle flecked apologist books on the subject) simply prolongs the "national guilt"

 

This fellow played a part in the holocaust, he was a camp guard. It is right that his guilt, as part of that terrible action, should be confirmed, I also think that it is right that mercy was demonstrated in sentencing him, as a man in his 90s. Mercy which was not displayed to those he guarded.

Edited July 25, 2020 by herfiehandbag

[Logosone]

12 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

In the late 1970s early 1980s I spent three years (as part of a much longer career), as a British Soldier, based in a place called Celle, a small town between Hannover and Luneburg in Lower Saxony. Perhaps slightly unusually amongst my peers, (even then I was regarded as a dangerous radical) I made some efforts to interact with the local community. I spoke some German from school, and worked hard to improve it. I spent several months - the best part of a year - enthusiastically chasing the affections of a (gorgeous) local girl, the daughter of a "senior and well regarded" member of the community - her family name prefixed by "Von". I joined the local Model Railway Club, based in an old signal box at the main railway station. 

 

Amongst all the Germans (of the generation who had lived/served during the war) the recurrent mantra was "of course we knew nothing of all that". Information was much less freely available back then (no internet) and so I accepted that at face value.

 

Celle is an important railway junction. The railway station and yards lie within the area of the town. One of the branch lines runs to Bergen Hohne, a few kilometres away, and then known as Bergen Belsen. The trains carrying their tragic cargoes to that camp would have been marshalled in those yards, and run through the station and out through the suburbs of the town. In early 1945, during an air raid on the railway yards, a large number of Jews, bound for Belsen, escaped from a train and hid in the heathlands and pine forests to the North and West of Celle. What followed was known as "The Great Celle Rabbit Hunt". The adult and teenage population of the town enthusiastically hunted down the escaped inmates. Some were beaten to death, most  were returned to the camps, marched through the streets. Their pitiful state could hardly have gone unnoticed. At the time I knew nothing of this - it was never mentioned. The Internet has allowed it to be known now. 

 

Now I don't think that the entire community must carry endless guilt for this - I am sure that the lovely Julianna (ah such memories!) would be horrified to know of it - but it was, I am now sure, a secret kept by her father, and her uncles (whom I met) and the old boys with whom I spent such happy times running model trains! It was most certainly not an "unknown". That, and the knowledge of what happened throughout the sorry mess which was the Third Reich must be admitted. Only then, and even now, can that guilt be expunged. Pretending that no-one knew, or that there were comparable atrocities, or that it is exaggerated (yes I have read David Irving's spittle flecked apologist books on the subject) simply prolongs the "national guilt"

 

This fellow played a part in the holocaust, he was a camp guard. It is right that his guilt, as part of that terrible action, should be confirmed, I also think that it is right that mercy was demonstrated in sentencing him, as a man in his 90s. Mercy which was not displayed to those he guarded.

 

There is a thing called "chain of causation". It means that you first have to establish factual causation, in other words "but for the conduct of the defendant" would the harm have occurred? There were many camp guards in WWII. Many camps, in most there were no gassings. It certainly can not be said that being a camp guard inevitably resulted in gassing or killing of prisoners. But for the conduct of Dey would these killings have happened or not? In other words was Dey's conduct a direct factual causation in killing or gassing prisoners? Very obviously it was not. Plenty of guards watched over inmates but their conduct did not result in killings or gassings.

 

For example if A kills victim B then A is factually responsible for the killing. The birth of A's grandmother is a causally relevant condition but not a cause.   On the other hand, A's gunshot, being a deliberate human intervention in the ordinary state of affairs, is elevated to the status of "cause".

 

This was just not the case with Dey's actions. Dey did NOT play a part in the holocaust, which refers to the killing of jews. Dey did not participate in the actual killing. Nor was Dey an accomplice. He had no direct, planning or causal connection with anyone who did any killing, and never worked actively to cause any killing.

 

He did not kill any Jews. He was not part, knowingly, of a scheme to kill Jews. He was unaware of such a scheme. When Dey was conscripted the holocaust was no known the way it is today. In 1943 a poll of Americans revealed that half of all Americans thought the holocaust was just a rumour. Dey did not know that he was doing anything other than being a tower guard.

 

To say he played a part in comitting 5000 murders is simply ludicrous. 

 

As for knowing or not knowing, no-one is pretending that nobody knew, obviously some did, however the very vast majority of Germans simply did not know. They did not participate in the killings, only 0.11 percent of the Wehrmacht were found guilty of that, they had no jewish neighbours (only 400,000 - 500,000 in Germany at the time, 80 million Germans). 

 

You illustrate this yourself in your Celle story when you say  "but it was, I am now sure, a secret kept by her father, and her uncles (whom I met) and the old boys with whom I spent such happy times running model trains!", of course those who were involved had every motivation in the world to keep it secret. Some didn't, but that was a very small minority.

 

Most Germans did not know.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2020 by Logosone

[stevenl]

3 minutes ago, Logosone said:

 

There is a thing called "chain of causation". It means that you first have to establish factual causation, in other words "but for the conduct of the defendant" would the harm have occurred? There were many camp guards in WWII. Many camps, in most there were no gassings. It certainly can not be said that being a camp guard inevitably resulted in gassing or killing of prisoners. But for the conduct of Dey would these killings have happened or not? In other words was Dey's conduct a direct factual causation in killing or gassing prisoners? Very obviously it was not. Plenty of guards watched over inmates but their conduct did not result in killings or gassings.

 

For example if A kills victim B then A is factually responsible for the killing. The birth of A's grandmother is a causally relevant condition but not a cause.   On the other hand, A's gunshot, being a deliberate human intervention in the ordinary state of affairs, is elevated to the status of "cause".

 

This was just not the case with Dey's actions. Dey did NOT play a part in the holocaust, which refers to the killing of jews. Dey did not participate in the actual killing. Nor was Dey an accomplice. He had no direct, planning or causal connection with anyone who did any killing, and never worked actively to cause any killing.

 

He did not kill any Jews. He was not part, knowingly, of a scheme to kill Jews. He was unaware of such a scheme. 

 

To say he played a part in comitting 5000 murders is simply ludicrous. 

 

As for knowing or not knowing, no-one is pretending that nobody knew, obviously some did, however the very vast majority of Germans simply did not know. They did not participate in the killings, only 0.11 percent of the Wehrmacht were found guilty of that, they had no jewish neighbours (only 400,000 - 500,000 in Germany at the time, 80 million Germans). 

 

You illustrate this yourself in your Celle story when you say  "but it was, I am now sure, a secret kept by her father, and her uncles (whom I met) and the old boys with whom I spent such happy times running model trains!", of course those who were involved had every motivation in the world to keep it secret. Some didn't, but that was a very small minority.

 

Most Germans did not know.

 

Still the same arguments, ignoring all the evidence against. Evidence, not just an opinion.

[Logosone]

16 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Still the same arguments, ignoring all the evidence against. Evidence, not just an opinion.

You think you have evidence that shows what every single one of 80 million Germans was thinking, what they knew?

 

Bit presumptious are we?

[stevenl]

24 minutes ago, Logosone said:

You think you have evidence that shows what every single one of 80 million Germans was thinking, what they knew?

 

Bit presumptious are we?

I don't know if I have to laugh or cry. Just know that mentioning the reason for either would get me banned.

Edited July 26, 2020 by stevenl

[Logosone]

6 minutes ago, stevenl said:

I don't know if I have to laugh or cry. Just know that mentioning the reason for either would get me banned.

The evidence you refer to merely points to a small minority of Germans knowing. The perpetrators, some jews, some politically active. The very vast majority could not have known. Even in 1943 half of all Americans thought the holocaust was just a rumour.

 

So don't spout off about "evidence" which you don't have.

[stevenl]

14 minutes ago, Logosone said:

The evidence you refer to merely points to a small minority of Germans knowing. The perpetrators, some jews, some politically active. The very vast majority could not have known. Even in 1943 half of all Americans thought the holocaust was just a rumour.

 

So don't spout off about "evidence" which you don't have.

No, it does not. Again, you're ignoring the evidence because it doesn't suit your narrative.

 

But I'm out of here, impossible to have a rational discussion when someone is simply ignoring the facts.

[herfiehandbag]

3 hours ago, Logosone said:

 

There is a thing called "chain of causation". It means that you first have to establish factual causation, in other words "but for the conduct of the defendant" would the harm have occurred? There were many camp guards in WWII. Many camps, in most there were no gassings. It certainly can not be said that being a camp guard inevitably resulted in gassing or killing of prisoners. But for the conduct of Dey would these killings have happened or not? In other words was Dey's conduct a direct factual causation in killing or gassing prisoners? Very obviously it was not. Plenty of guards watched over inmates but their conduct did not result in killings or gassings.

 

For example if A kills victim B then A is factually responsible for the killing. The birth of A's grandmother is a causally relevant condition but not a cause.   On the other hand, A's gunshot, being a deliberate human intervention in the ordinary state of affairs, is elevated to the status of "cause".

 

This was just not the case with Dey's actions. Dey did NOT play a part in the holocaust, which refers to the killing of jews. Dey did not participate in the actual killing. Nor was Dey an accomplice. He had no direct, planning or causal connection with anyone who did any killing, and never worked actively to cause any killing.

 

He did not kill any Jews. He was not part, knowingly, of a scheme to kill Jews. He was unaware of such a scheme. When Dey was conscripted the holocaust was no known the way it is today. In 1943 a poll of Americans revealed that half of all Americans thought the holocaust was just a rumour. Dey did not know that he was doing anything other than being a tower guard.

 

To say he played a part in comitting 5000 murders is simply ludicrous. 

 

As for knowing or not knowing, no-one is pretending that nobody knew, obviously some did, however the very vast majority of Germans simply did not know. They did not participate in the killings, only 0.11 percent of the Wehrmacht were found guilty of that, they had no jewish neighbours (only 400,000 - 500,000 in Germany at the time, 80 million Germans). 

 

You illustrate this yourself in your Celle story when you say  "but it was, I am now sure, a secret kept by her father, and her uncles (whom I met) and the old boys with whom I spent such happy times running model trains!", of course those who were involved had every motivation in the world to keep it secret. Some didn't, but that was a very small minority.

 

Most Germans did not know.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Logosone said:

As for knowing or not knowing, no-one is pretending that nobody knew, obviously some did, however the very vast majority of Germans simply did not know. They did not participate in the killings, only 0.11 percent of the Wehrmacht were found guilty of that, they had no jewish neighbours (only 400,000 - 500,000 in Germany at the time, 80 million Germans). 

 

You illustrate this yourself in your Celle story when you say  "but it was, I am now sure, a secret kept by her father, and her uncles (whom I met) and the old boys with whom I spent such happy times running model trains!", of course those who were involved had every motivation in the world to keep it secret. Some didn't, but that was a very small minority.

 

Most Germans did not know.

 

Everyone in Celle in 1945 was aware of "The Great Celle Rabbit Hunt". That is a lot of people. Then consider the numbers of other people who lived adjacent to all the other camps, the people who worked in the industries which used the slave labour which they provided, all those who worked on the railways which played such a major part in moving the victims, all those who simply saw the trains pass through stations whilst they waited on the platforms, and so on and so on. It is quite simply incredible that what was going on was unknown. Oh they may have not known the details, how many died in which week, and from what causes, but absolutely it must have been common knowledge that something awful, and broadly understood, was going on in these camps, both within Germany itself and throughout the Reich.

 

Only a very small proportion of the Wehrmacht or SS were convicted, true. Only a very small proportion of the German Armed Forces were prosecuted, true. There were many prisoners held by May 1945, millions. The pressure ion the Western Allies was to demobilise them, get them home, to start to rebuild Germany. The East had perhaps slightly different priorities, to use them to rebuild the damage from the war in the Soviet Union and what had become it's satellite states. There were very limited resources to screen and investigate. I had the privilege of speaking to men (at a veterans reunion which I was involved in hosting) who went into Belsen in the hours after the liberation of the camp. They were of the opinion, forcefully expressed, that every single German in uniform, should have been held in the camps and the parts which they played rigorously investigated. I'm sure that opinion was shared by those who went into Birkenau, Dachau, Auschwitz and every other place where the 3rd Reich, and the men who served it, (as did Dey, however humble their role) had uncovered the entrances to hell. That was of course not possible, so the vast majority of perpetrators went unpunished.

 

As for the poll of Americans in 1943, that was 2 years before the camps were liberated. Quite probably many of those polled only had the haziest of ideas as to why the US was at war with Germany. Maybe they should have been asked again in 1946, when the facts were known, and the men who had discovered them had returned home.

 

Anyway, like @stevenl I'm leaving the subject - it is clear that you will not accept the involvement of that generation of Germans in what happened, nor the inevitable and inescapable fact that they must have known. Further discussion will only lead, I suspect, to denial, at least of the scale of the Holocaust, if not of it's very existence.

 

I'm out.

Edited July 26, 2020 by herfiehandbag

[Logosone]

56 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

 

Everyone in Celle in 1945 was aware of "The Great Celle Rabbit Hunt". That is a lot of people. Then consider the numbers of other people who lived adjacent to all the other camps, the people who worked in the industries which used the slave labour which they provided, all those who worked on the railways which played such a major part in moving the victims, all those who simply saw the trains pass through stations whilst they waited on the platforms, and so on and so on. It is quite simply incredible that what was going on was unknown. Oh they may have not known the details, how many died in which week, and from what causes, but absolutely it must have been common knowledge that something awful, and broadly understood, was going on in these camps, both within Germany itself and throughout the Reich.

 

Only a very small proportion of the Wehrmacht or SS were convicted, true. Only a very small proportion of the German Armed Forces were prosecuted, true. There were many prisoners held by May 1945, millions. The pressure in the west was to demobilise them, get them home, to start to rebuild Germany. The East had perhaps slightly different priorities, to use them to rebuild the damage from the war in the Soviet Union and what had become it's sattelite states. There were very limited resources to screen and investigate. I have spoken to men who went into Belsen in the hours after the liberation of the camp. They were of the opinion, forcefully expressed, that every single German in uniform, should have been held in the camps and the parts which they played rigorously investigated. I'm sure that opinion was shared by those who went into Birkenau, Dachau, Auschwitz and every other place where the 3rd Reich, and the men who served it, (as did Dey, however humble their role) had uncovered the entrances to hell. That was of course not possible, so the vast majority of perpetrators went unpunished.

 

As for the poll of Americans in 1943, that was 2 years before the camps were liberated. Quite probably many of those polled only had the haziest of ideas as to why the US was at war with Germany. Maybe they should have been asked again in 1946, when the facts were known, and the men who had discovered them had returned home.

 

Anyway, like @stevenl I'm leaving the subject - it is clear that you will not accept the involvement of that generation of Germans in what happened, nor the inevitable and inescapable fact that they must have known. Further discussion will only lead, I suspect, to denial, at least of the scale of the Holocaust, if not of it's very existence.

 

I'm out.

Except the Celle incident you refer to was not an extermination operation. Nothing akin to gas chambers or the units in the east. What happened was that Alllied planes bombarded trains filled with prisoners. Most of the prisoners who died from that transport were killed by Allied planes. When those few surviving prisoners were caught most were marched off to other camps, only 30 or so were killed by those who caught them, because of looting. If Germans had looted they would also have been killed at that time.

 

To argue that because train workers saw prisoners on trains they must have known those people would be killed is frankly nonsense. Transport of people was common in those days. How those train workers would have known the inmates would be killed is the question. Even if they had known, how many Germans worked in train stations?

 

No, sorry, not convincing. Most Germans did not know. As Bruno Dey testified. He was a guard in a camp, and even HE did not know the full extent.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2020 by Logosone

[Pilotman]

I would take him outside, strap him to his wheelchair and shoot him. 

[nausea]

21 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

I would take him outside, strap him to his wheelchair and shoot him. 

The wages of sin is death at a grand old age. The Japanese were worse. Yeah, our guys were bad, but we pale into insignificance. Everyone cracks on about the Russians, where would you rather be - a Russian, or a Nazi, or a Japanese, death camp. 

[Pilotman]

1 minute ago, nausea said:

The wages of sin is death at a grand old age. The Japanese were worse. Yeah, our guys were bad, but we pale into insignificance. Everyone cracks on about the Russians, where would you rather be - a Russian, or a Nazi, or a Japanese, death camp. 

English

[Morch]

12 hours ago, Logosone said:

You think you have evidence that shows what every single one of 80 million Germans was thinking, what they knew?

 

Bit presumptious are we?

 

It wasn't claimed that all Germans knew.

[Morch]

8 hours ago, Logosone said:

Except the Celle incident you refer to was not an extermination operation. Nothing akin to gas chambers or the units in the east. What happened was that Alllied planes bombarded trains filled with prisoners. Most of the prisoners who died from that transport were killed by Allied planes. When those few surviving prisoners were caught most were marched off to other camps, only 30 or so were killed by those who caught them, because of looting. If Germans had looted they would also have been killed at that time.

 

To argue that because train workers saw prisoners on trains they must have known those people would be killed is frankly nonsense. Transport of people was common in those days. How those train workers would have known the inmates would be killed is the question. Even if they had known, how many Germans worked in train stations?

 

No, sorry, not convincing. Most Germans did not know. As Bruno Dey testified. He was a guard in a camp, and even HE did not know the full extent.

 

 

 

 

 

It wasn't claimed that Dey knew "the full extent". That you find Dey's version of things as definitive, true and correct is at odds with the court's view. All of the words you pour here in the service of historical revisionism would not change that. Same goes for cherry-picking bits from links, making bogus claims based on figures and statistics, cherry-picked as well. And let's not forget the trademark ignoring of any comment, fact or rebuttal that does not seat with the narrative pushed.

[herfiehandbag]

8 hours ago, Morch said:

 

It wasn't claimed that Dey knew "the full extent". That you find Dey's version of things as definitive, true and correct is at odds with the court's view. All of the words you pour here in the service of historical revisionism would not change that. Same goes for cherry-picking bits from links, making bogus claims based on figures and statistics, cherry-picked as well. And let's not forget the trademark ignoring of any comment, fact or rebuttal that does not seat with the narrative pushed.

He quotes Richard Evans to support his claims that the Holocaust was not known about by the German People.

 

When David Irving advanced similar claims ( to those of Logosone) he was the subject of a hostile review by a book reviewer - American academic Deborah Lipstadt. Irving sued Lipstadt and her publishers Penguin Books for libel. Evans was a principal witness for the defence. Your post is actually an accurate summary of Evans's dismissal of Irvings claims ! 

 

Irving lost and had to pay costs.