Face masks not necessary based on current evidence - Holland's Top Scientists conclude after review of evidence

[robblok]

  On 8/3/2020 at 6:24 AM, Logosone said:

Listen your nonsense is completely irrelevant, I have already quoted the exact words from the Dutch National Institute for Health who on their own website from Holland make clear in Dutch and English that wearing masks is not necessary.

 

Face masks not needed in private life

 

https://www.rivm.nl/en/novel-coronavirus-covid-19/face-masks-and-gloves

 

This advice was not given because:

 

1) There are not enough face masks

 

2) There are legal issues

 

3) People can't social distance with masks

 

This advice was given because the top scientists in the Netherlands, after reviewing all the evidence, concluded that wearing masks is pointless.

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You should read the date of thee page and read the date of the interview in the newspaper. My newspaper dates are newer then your older data.

 

I also just downloaded a PDF in Dutch from the RVIM and they say there that its good to wear masks in public places where you can't do social distancing. So that proves that masks work. That also collaborates what i read in the other newspaper where one of those RVIM scientists said that she worried people would not do social distancing if there were mask. They feel social distancing is the most important thing.

 

In the PDF that goes in depth to the testing that there is proof that it works but its not highly effective. Part of it is because of the quality of the masks.

 

I added the PDF in Dutch (you claim you can read Dutch so have fun try to discredit me)

Toepassing van niet-medische mondneusmaskers in openbare ruimten.pdfFetching info...

[robblok]

  On 8/3/2020 at 6:34 AM, simple1 said:

The member has had an agenda on this forum for a long time concerning Covid pushing for 'herd immunity' etc etc. The report does support the use of masks when social distancing is not possible and so on, the report does not claim masks are not required; spin is going on...

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I know he is one of those fringe science guys. I feel its almost a duty to go against people like that because there are people who are not that bright that might actually believe him. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

  On 8/3/2020 at 6:27 AM, Logosone said:

Well, we do know that asymptomatic transmission only accounts for 0 to 2.2 per cent of cases.

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I think you're mischaracterizing the data again, as you've repeatedly done on CV posts.

 

This is from the WHO on the point you raise above:

 

  Quote

Four individual studies from Brunei, Guangzhou China, Taiwan China and the Republic of Korea found that between 0% and 2.2% of people with asymptomatic infection infected anyone else, compared to 0.8%-15.4% of people with symptoms.(10, 72, 86, 87)

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They're talking about the rates at which those without symptoms vs those with symptoms end up infecting others,  not the share of asymptomatic infections among all CV cases.

 

  Quote

Multiple studies have shown that people infect others before they themselves became ill, (10, 42, 69, 82, 83) which is supported by available viral shedding data (see above). One study of transmission in Singapore reported that 6.4% of secondary cases resulted from pre-symptomatic transmission.(73) One modelling study, that inferred the date of transmission based on the estimated serial interval and incubation period, estimated that up to 44% (25-69%) of transmission may have occurred just before symptoms appeared.

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https://www.who.int/news-room/commentaries/detail/transmission-of-sars-cov-2-implications-for-infection-prevention-precautions

 

[Logosone]

  On 8/3/2020 at 5:32 AM, dimitriv said:

 

Yes. It is almost like the article in the daily mail. You pick 1 opinion between hundreds and say that that is the only truth. The article in the Volkskrant you point to explains it much better. But it's probably difficult to understand for someone who studied a couple of years in Maastricht at an institution where they teach in English, but still thinks he knows Dutch better than native Dutch speakers.

 

 

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The Volkskrant says exactly the same as the Daily Mail, it's not at all difficult to understand:

 

"Waarom Nederland nog steeds ‘nee’ zegt tegen mondkapjes (en andere landen niet)

 

Het bewijs dat mondkapjes werken is dan ‘zwak’, ‘van lage zekerheid’ en ‘niet voldoende sterk’, melden de grote onderzoeken die ernaar zijn gedaan.

 

Dat het gebruik van straatmondkapjes ‘nog niet wordt ondersteund door direct of hoog kwalitatief wetenschappelijk bewijs’, meldde de WHO ook. Maar dat stond in de bijlagen, in de kleine lettertjes."

 

https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/waarom-nederland-nog-steeds-nee-zegt-tegen-mondkapjes-en-andere-landen-niet~b81b898e/?referer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

  On 8/3/2020 at 6:44 AM, Logosone said:

 

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This is a more complete version of the WHO's June 2020 mask guidance:

 

  Quote

taking into account the available studies evaluating pre- and asymptomatic transmission, a growing compendium of observational evidence on the use of masks by the general public in several countries, individual values and preferences, as well as the difficulty of physical distancing in many contexts, WHO has updated its guidance to advise that to prevent COVID-19 transmission effectively in areas of community transmission, governments should encourage the general public to wear masks in specific situations and settings as part of a comprehensive approach to suppress SARS-CoV-2 transmission 

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https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/advice-on-the-use-of-masks-in-the-community-during-home-care-and-in-healthcare-settings-in-the-context-of-the-novel-coronavirus-(2019-ncov)-outbreak

 

[CGW]

  On 8/3/2020 at 5:09 AM, lemonjelly said:

So masks must be beneficial if everyone wears one. If we all act responsibly and protect each other, we’ll get through this.

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So you want everybody to join in a game of "Make believe" if you are so convinced that masks are beneficial, play your game of lets pretend they work, why don't you also "pretend" everyone is wearing a mask? ???? 

[Logosone]

  On 8/3/2020 at 6:51 AM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

I don't know the date of what you posted above... But the WHO updated and revised their mask wearing guidance in June 2020, as follows:

 

• https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/06/who-updates-guidance-on-masks-heres-what-to-know-now/

•  

 

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The words you refer to above "At present, there is no direct evidence (from studies on COVID-19 and in healthy people in the community) on the effectiveness of universal masking of healthy people in the community to prevent infection with respiratory viruses, including COVID-19." are in fact from the WHO's June 2020 updated guidance, which can be found in full here:

 

apps.who.int › iris › rest › bitstreams › retrieve

 

Of course it looks like you have issues comprehending the wording from the WHO, which clearly says "where there is widespread transmission and when physical distancing is difficult, such as on public transport".

 

So if you are not on public transport and there is no widespread transmission of the virus the WHO is in fact saying no need to wear the mask.

[robblok]

  On 8/3/2020 at 6:55 AM, CGW said:

So you want everybody to join in a game of "Make believe" if you are so convinced that masks are beneficial, play your game of lets pretend they work, why don't you also "pretend" everyone is wearing a mask? ???? 

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I feel that people who don't wear masks should all attend covid parties like some Americans did. Seems to be real educational. That way we help Darwin a bit.

 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/world/1950540/us-man-30-dies-from-virus-after-attending-covid-party

[CGW]

  On 8/3/2020 at 6:59 AM, robblok said:

I feel that people who don't wear masks should all attend covid parties like some Americans did. Seems to be real educational. That way we help Darwin a bit.

 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/world/1950540/us-man-30-dies-from-virus-after-attending-covid-party

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Thats good, you want to know what I think of people that make comments like this? ???? 

You continue to be blinded by the media, just pretend everyone thinks like you ???? 

[robblok]

  On 8/3/2020 at 7:10 AM, CGW said:

Thats good, you want to know what I think of people that make comments like this? ???? 

You continue to be blinded by the media, just pretend everyone thinks like you ???? 

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I don't need to know what you think about people like me. I know what i think about people like you its probably similar. So not that hard to imagine.

 

I don't pretend that everyone thinks like me, I wish less people wore tinfoil hats. The fringe crazies that used to be more isolated now band together on the internet. Its a shame of such a good medium.

[Logosone]

  On 8/3/2020 at 6:59 AM, robblok said:

I feel that people who don't wear masks should all attend covid parties like some Americans did. Seems to be real educational. That way we help Darwin a bit.

 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/world/1950540/us-man-30-dies-from-virus-after-attending-covid-party

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I feel people who call others "not that bright" because they follow the advice of the top scientist of the Netherlands who have reviewed the evidence several times are not very bright.

 

Clearly the top scientists in the Netherlands, after reviewing all the evidence, have come to the conclusion that facemasks are not useful in stopping the transmission of the virus.

 

I think I will rather take their advice than your arrogant ramblings.

[Logosone]

  On 8/3/2020 at 7:13 AM, robblok said:

I don't pretend that everyone thinks like me, I wish less people wore tinfoil hats. The fringe crazies that used to be more isolated now band together on the internet. Its a shame of such a good medium.

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You are the "fringe crazy". The scientific consensus in the Netherlands is clearly that masks are not useful in stopping the transmission of the virus.

 

You believe otherwise, in the absence of substantial evidence. That makes you the fringe, robblok.

[robblok]

  On 8/3/2020 at 7:15 AM, Logosone said:

You are the "fringe crazy". The scientific consensus in the Netherlands is clearly that masks are not useful in stopping the transmission of the virus.

 

You believe otherwise, in the absence of substantial evidence. That makes you the fringe, robblok.

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There is no scientific consensus, that is something you just made up. There are a few scientist that are in the group that gives advice to the government that are in consensus. That is not the same as saying all Dutch scientist. You keep twisting and turning and lying. 

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

  On 8/3/2020 at 6:58 AM, Logosone said:

The words you refer to above "At present, there is no direct evidence (from studies on COVID-19 and in healthy people in the community) on the effectiveness of universal masking of healthy people in the community to prevent infection with respiratory viruses, including COVID-19." are in fact from the WHO's June 2020 updated guidance, which can be found in full here:

 

apps.who.int › iris › rest › bitstreams › retrieve

 

Of course it looks like you have issues comprehending the wording from the WHO, which clearly says "where there is widespread transmission and when physical distancing is difficult, such as on public transport".

 

So if you are not on public transport and there is no widespread transmission of the virus the WHO is in fact saying no need to wear the mask.

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As usual, you've wrongly characterized their actual much broader and more encompassing recommendations, as listed verbatim below:

 

[CGW]

  On 8/3/2020 at 7:13 AM, robblok said:

I don't pretend that everyone thinks like me,

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Your on the right track.

Get a life, think for yourself, your letting yourself be used with all this "tinfoil hats" nonsense, you seem to think you know it all! your 20 years+ younger than me and I'm still learning, you have shut your brain off and don't allow your self to think critically, your a follower, be a leader! 

 ????

[robblok]

  On 8/3/2020 at 7:15 AM, Logosone said:

You are the "fringe crazy". The scientific consensus in the Netherlands is clearly that masks are not useful in stopping the transmission of the virus.

 

You believe otherwise, in the absence of substantial evidence. That makes you the fringe, robblok.

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No what they are saying and what is in the PDF i gave you is that social distancing works better then masks and that if you can't social distance you should use masks. 

 

One of the fears of one of the scientists (she is the group her name is koopmans) is that mask give a false sense of safety and then people will not social distance.  (sorry other members i post a Dutch link that Logosone said he could read ????)

 

https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/viroloog-koopmans-met-verplichte-mondkapjes-gaan-we-tweede-piek-niet-voorkomen~ae630001/

[Bkk Brian]

  On 8/3/2020 at 7:14 AM, Logosone said:

I feel people who call others "not that bright" because they follow the advice of the top scientist of the Netherlands who have reviewed the evidence several times are not very bright.

 

Clearly the top scientists in the Netherlands, after reviewing all the evidence, have come to the conclusion that facemasks are not useful in stopping the transmission of the virus.

 

I think I will rather take their advice than your arrogant ramblings.

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Why do these same top scientists from the Netherlands make it mandatory to wear face masks on public transport? They must believe face masks work or they would not enforce this rule right?

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Looks like the CV is making a resurgence there. Better mask up, and keep your distance:

 

 

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/netherlands/

[tomazbodner]

  On 8/3/2020 at 4:17 AM, dimitriv said:

 

Yes. I speak Dutch so I am able to read more newspapers in Dutch than you, and I am also able to better interpret who says what, and why they say things.

 

The problem in The Netherlands is that this organisation from day one said that wearing masks was not needed and would not help. The reason why they said this is that there were NO masks available. Even healthcare workers had no masks. The Netherlands were prepared very badly. To save masks they advised the population not to use it because there was no need.

 

And now they have to make a 180 degree turn?  Saving face is also a thing in NL.

 

There are many scientists, and they all say something else. You can selective quote one to prove a point. But it is just 1 opinion of many, and doesn't prove much.

 

The Daily Mail is similar. Out of many opinions they quote 1 to prove their point. And forget about other opinions. A very bad newspaper.

 

 

 

 

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What you describe as the reason for saying masks weren't needed was pretty much the case everywhere. Just that some changed their mind after stocking up on supplies for medical workers, and others continue to push no need for mask agenda.

 

In reality, outside is small chance of getting infected unless coughed into your face by infected person, when keeping the distance. The wind disperses the droplets to so small concentrations that you could only be infected in theory. Sunlight and higher temperatures in the summer kill it off in the air and on any surfaces it lands on in relatively short time.

 

But let's wait for the fall and winter, when people start staying indoors, in places with little or no ventilation. Where droplets stay basically static in the air for hours and get inhaled by anyone passing by. That will change the results very quickly.

 

About whether masks work or not, I'd like Logosone's explanation about the video below:

 

 

[CG1 Blue]

  On 8/3/2020 at 7:15 AM, Logosone said:

The scientific consensus in the Netherlands is clearly that masks are not useful in stopping the transmission of the virus.

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Ok, and what is the consensus in the other 192 countries? Just for balance. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

  On 8/3/2020 at 7:30 AM, Bkk Brian said:

Why do these same top scientists from the Netherlands make it mandatory to wear face masks on public transport? They must believe face masks work or they would not enforce this rule right?

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Their government advice does seem to be overwhelmingly distance based measures... except as regards transportation, where masks are generally required.

 

  Quote

From 1 July the following rules apply to transport:

 

• Passengers aged 13 and over must wear a non-medical face mask. Face masks do not need to be worn in stations, on platforms or while waiting for public transport at a stop.

The fine for not wearing a mask on public transport is €95.
 

• For commercial transport, such as taxis, passenger vans and coaches, passengers must undergo a pre-travel health check and – if possible – reserve a seat in advance. Non-medical face masks must also be worn by all passengers aged 13 and over. If you are the only passenger you do not have to wear a face mask.
   
• People travelling in a car or other private vehicle are advised to wear non-medical face masks if there are 2 or more people in the vehicle who belong to different households.

 

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https://www.government.nl/topics/coronavirus-covid-19/tackling-new-coronavirus-in-the-netherlands/public-life

[Matzzon]

@Logosone Feel free to walk without. Just see to that you take a trip to Florida or a remote destination in Africa at the same time. South Africa is a very good place for all who wants to test the positive and negative factors regarding face masks.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

  On 8/3/2020 at 7:20 AM, robblok said:

No what they are saying and what is in the PDF i gave you is that social distancing works better then masks and that if you can't social distance you should use masks. 

 

One of the fears of one of the scientists (she is the group her name is koopmans) is that mask give a false sense of safety and then people will not social distance.  (sorry other members i post a Dutch link that Logosone said he could read ????)

 

https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/viroloog-koopmans-met-verplichte-mondkapjes-gaan-we-tweede-piek-niet-voorkomen~ae630001/

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I think that's a good point. You don't want people to get a false sense of security... IMHO, more protection is better.

 

But I look at it a different way. When someone is out and about, they can't always control the distancing of people around them.... Other people will invade your space depending on where you go, no matter what you do.

 

But the one thing you CAN always control yourself is wearing a proper mask. That way, when you're distant from others, you're double protected. But when you're in a place where social distancing isn't always followed even temporarily, the mask is still providing you some protection. The better the mask, the better the protection.

 

To me, it's not an either or proposition. It's a BOTH things are better proposition.

 

[Bkk Brian]

  On 8/3/2020 at 7:45 AM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Their government advice does seem to be overwhelmingly distance based measures... except as regards transportation, where masks are generally required.

 

 

https://www.government.nl/topics/coronavirus-covid-19/tackling-new-coronavirus-in-the-netherlands/public-life

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Agreed but the reason for social distancing is the same reason you should wear a mask, these Dutch scientists are being contradictory in the extreme:

 

When someone coughs, sneezes, or speaks they spray small liquid droplets from their nose or mouth which may contain virus. If you are too close, you can breathe in the droplets, including the COVID-19 virus if the person has the disease. Hence social distancing and mask wearing.

 

The Netherlands seems to think that if you wear a mask then you're likely to forget about social distancing and thats refuted by other scientists who say that it will actually make you more aware of keeping distance.

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

  On 8/3/2020 at 7:53 AM, Bkk Brian said:

The Netherlands seems to think that if you wear a mask then you're likely to forget about social distancing and thats refuted by other scientists who say that it will actually make you more aware of keeping distance.

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Yep, I wasn't agreeing with their position. Just noting it's inconsistent.

 

To me, it's kind of hard to distinguish the difference between sitting in a bus or train with a bunch of other people (where they want you to wear a mask) vs sitting in an office with a bunch of other people nearby (where they don't want you to wear a mask)...

 

Here in Thailand, when I'm out and around and see most others in BKK wearing a mask, as well as myself always wearing a mask, it's an ever-present reminder that things are not "normal" and there are health risks to be mindful of. From a psychology point of view, mask wear reinforces that.

 

[robblok]

  On 8/3/2020 at 7:52 AM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

I think that's a good point. You don't want people to get a false sense of security... IMHO, more protection is better.

 

But I look at it a different way. When someone is out and about, they can't always control the distancing of people around them.... Other people will invade your space depending on where you go, no matter what you do.

 

But the one thing you CAN always control yourself is wearing a proper mask. That way, when you're distant from others, you're double protected. But when you're in a place where social distancing isn't always followed even temporarily, the mask is still providing you some protection. The better the mask, the better the protection.

 

To me, it's not an either or proposition. It's a BOTH things are better proposition.

 

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For me too.. i disagree with the Dutch scientists. But who is to say they are without bias. This lady has always resisted mask wearing. Just imagine she has to make a U turn. Not many people will do that. 

[robblok]

  On 8/3/2020 at 7:53 AM, Bkk Brian said:

Agreed but the reason for social distancing is the same reason you should wear a mask, these Dutch scientists are being contradictory in the extreme:

 

When someone coughs, sneezes, or speaks they spray small liquid droplets from their nose or mouth which may contain virus. If you are too close, you can breathe in the droplets, including the COVID-19 virus if the person has the disease. Hence social distancing and mask wearing.

 

The Netherlands seems to think that if you wear a mask then you're likely to forget about social distancing and thats refuted by other scientists who say that it will actually make you more aware of keeping distance.

 

 

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That is what the scientist in charge say. What your saying has been said by other Dutch scientists that don't agree with her. That is why i said that Logosone is talking B.S. when he said there was consensus. 

 

There is consensus from those who are in the advice group. Outside scientist don''t agree. 

[Logosone]

  On 8/3/2020 at 8:07 AM, robblok said:

There is consensus from those who are in the advice group. 

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That's exactly what I meant of course.

 

However, it is not just the OMT advice group which advises the government, also the Dutch National Health Institute has made clear there is no need to wear masks.

 

 

[JensenZ]

  On 8/3/2020 at 2:32 AM, bert bloggs said:

Based on so few cases of it here and only 58 deaths ,i will keep wearing one thanks .

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And I'll wear a mask only for as long as I have to, decided by the authorities in Thailand - not a moment longer, thanks.

 

The way they are worn by myself and most people is probably worse than not having one at all as they become suppositories of germs and also incubators of germs. I wear one only to keep the authorities off my back and so I can visit shops and malls. 

[robblok]

  On 8/3/2020 at 8:11 AM, Logosone said:

That's exactly what I meant of course.

 

However, it is not just the OMT advice group which advises the government, also the Dutch National Health Institute has made clear there is no need to wear masks.

 

 

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That is not what you wrote.

 

Plus there is a need to wear masks if you can't social distance. Its mandatory in public transport. So if masks don't work why would they say this.