Google Translate Phonetics - What's the name? transliteration

[pbrock]

Example:

1) English word: new

2) Google translated Thai: ใหม่

3) Google translated phonetics: H̄ım̀

 

I want to learn the latter. The google translated phonetics. What is the name of this phonetics language?

 

Pretty sure in this case the ` in m̀ means falling tone but I shouldn't guess it.

Another example. The « in hot / ร้อนๆ / R̂xn« probably means repetition. But there are other symbols who's meaning I cannot guess. Therefore I am looking for some kind of list explaing these.

[eric67]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_11940
 

[RichCor]

I have yet to find anything that states what guide or table Google Translate uses for its phonetic pronunciation. Some posts say it's Americanist phonetic notation, also known as the North American Phonetic Alphabet or NAPA

[Oxx]

It's not NAPA, which is a system of transcription (i.e. a system for representing the sounds of a language), it's (as eric67 correctly stated) form of transliteration which represents each character of a word using characters from another alphabet.  No attention is paid to how the word is produced - just how it's spelt.  Using the transliteration it's possible to reverse the procedure and recreate the word's spelling in the original script.  For all practical purposes, it's utterly pointless nowadays.

[RichCor]

Google Dictionary and Translate are also mentioned in the following Wiki articles:

 

Pronunciation respelling for English

Google Dictionary

 

 

 

 

 

[tgeezer]

I must be missing something. I don’t know what language you speak or what you mean by phonetic but ใหม่ is not the sound of Him even allowing for the fact that the line over h might mean silent (h) I get  “im” which requires reading backwards, “mi” and i pronounce y -“my”  to sound like ใหม่ 
Some people think that learning Thai is difficult, this looks far more so! 

[Puccini]

I don't think any human uses this ISO 11940 phonetic transcription system; only computers do.

[Oxx]

2 hours ago, tgeezer said:

I must be missing something. 

Yes, missing reading and understanding my previous posting, particularly the bit "No attention is paid to how the word is produced - just how it's spelt."

 

 

1 hour ago, Puccini said:

I don't think any human uses this ISO 11940 phonetic transcription system; only computers do.

 

These days even computers don't use it.  It dates back to before the popular adoption of Unicode.  Previously each language had a separate set of characters, and only one set could be loaded at a time.  For example, Thai used what was known as the TIS-620 which covered the basic Latin and the Thai character sets.  Whilst using that character set there was no way to represent other characters.  (For example, you could have English and Thai in a document, but not letters from the Greek alphabet.)  ISO 11940 allowed all languages to be represented using a single character set.

 

Nowadays computers typically use what is known as Unicode, a vast character set encompassing virtually all the world's languages, so characters can be combined from all of them at the same time.  This is why I can now type AกאぁЯດ - something that would have been impossible a few years ago.  (Some characters might not display correctly, according to the fonts installed on your computer.)

[Puccini]

Thank you for that information, Oxx. I had been wondering about that.

[tgeezer]

Oxx, I can't deny that I Found your reply confusing which is why I responded to the OP. 
  "...how it is spelt" I took to mean the ordering of letters which is i h m in ใหม่
Perhaps you can tell me what spelt means, is it the letters used and their order in a word? 

 

[Oxx]

ใหม่ is transliterated by Google as H̄ım̀

ห becomes h̄ (here capitalised).

ใ becomes ı.

ม becomes m.

The tone mark is obvious.

Generally, preposed vowels such as ใ should not be transposed, but here Google is not strictly following the standard.  The official transliteration should (I think) be ih̄m̀

(Sorry about the formatting.  Don't know what's happened.)

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by Oxx

[Puccini]

@tgeezer

I don't know if this PDF file will be helpful:

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.sis.se/api/document/preview/893508/&ved=2ahUKEwj00fSr4JjrAhXFo4sKHYhEC0gQFjAFegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw1lIzDAO3UxdooiotuHzCEu

[Puccini]

Wikipedia has this information:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_11940?wprov=sfla1

 

 

[Puccini]

ISO-11940-2-2007.pdf

Source: https://cdn.standards.iteh.ai/samples/29544/73f4cbfe04bd40558f9ca31e34d076ed/ISO-11940-2-2007.pdf

 

See paragraph 5.3
 

Quote

 

5.3 The preposed vowels เ- <e>, แ- <æ>, ใ- <ı>, ไ- <ị>, and โ- <o> are transposed after the syllable
initial or the initial cluster before a conversion.

แทน <æthn> = ทแน <thæn> [thaen]
ไป <ịp> = ปไ <pị> [pai]

 

 

Does this explain the transposition of ใ in ใหม่ ?

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by Puccini
Added link to source of PDF document

[Oxx]

1 hour ago, Puccini said:

ISO-11940-2-2007.pdf 392.49 kB · 1 download

Does this explain the transposition of ใ in ใหม่ ?

 

Not really.  The standard states under "Scope" (second paragraph) that the transposition may be used, but is not recommended, since this is transliteration, not transcription.  Google isn't really sticking to the spirit of the standard.

[tgeezer]

Oxx I was stung by the critical tone in post no. 8 and by not acknowledging my claim in post No 10 that your post "passeth all understanding" you add insult to injury.  

Having got that off my chest, I would be interested in your opinion of the value of representing Thai using symbols other than Thai script and correctly showing the juxtaposition of consonants and vowels because it seems to me that this would be meaningless without the knowledge Thai grammar.   

[Oxx]

I'm sorry you were offended by my post #8.  I admit it was a tad facetious.

 

I have repeatedly stated that "the value of representing Thai using symbols other than Thai script" is something only of interest to computers - and way out of date computers at that.  This system is utterly pointless following the adoption of Unicode.

 

At the risk of repeating myself, the ISO standard allows Thai script to be represented using Latin characters (with a lot of extensions).  It also allows the original Thai script to be recreated from the transliteration.  And that's all it does.  It was never really intended for human beings to read or understand.  Now, as for why Google decided to show it, that's a mystery.  Google could have used transcription which would have helped people who don't read Thai script to pronounce the word, but they didn't.  OK, that's a slightly harder problem than transliteration, but not that much harder.  

 

 

[tgeezer]

I commented on this topic out of curiosity, it is not my place to question anybody's topic but if I feel that it might mislead new learners I feel obliged to point it out.  
The Thai script is unambiguous in representing sounds with only a few exceptions which makes learning any system of phonetic transcription which can not be read intuitively unnecessary.   

[Oxx]

46 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

Thai script is unambiguous in representing sounds with only a few exceptions

 

Sorry, but that is hopelessly inaccurate.  Thai script is utterly incapable of correctly representing, amongst other things, unstressed, mid-tone /a/, vowel length (e.g. เล่น), and the number of characters silenced by ไม้ทัณฑฆาต.  J. Marvin Brown calculated that more than 30% of Thai words are irregular.  IPA-based systems are far more accurate than Thai script.

[tgeezer]

On 8/13/2020 at 3:34 AM, ColeBOzbourne said:

The translation was not very helpful in that regard. I stumbled across a few children's e-books in Thai from a site called 'Brillkids'. Then to investigate some questions I found a separate site in English. The English version is a poem and the Thai version only sticks to the general story line. Here is the translation:

 

Here is a boy. He wants a toy.

Where can he go? He wants to know.

You can get a toy from a shop. It is too far to hop.

He rides a train. It starts to rain.

The boy gets to the shop. He buys a new top.

The rain is done, out comes the sun! He has lots of fun.

 

นี่คือเด็กผู้ชายที่อยากได้ของเล่น

จะไปหาที่ไหนดีถึงจะมีของเล่น

ที่ร้านขายของเล่นไงไม่ไกลหรอกนะ

นั่งรถไฟไปกับแม่แย่แล้วฝนตก!

ถึงร้านของเล่นตื่นเต้นได้ของเล่นใหม

ฝนหยุดตกแล้วนะพระอาทิตย์สาดส่องเล่นของเล่นใหม่สุขใจจริงเอย

Thank you. I see what you mean.    
 

[tgeezer]

 There you go again with your superior attitude "hopelessly" ! 
Did Marvin Brown say that? What did he mean by irregular do you think? can you give some examples? Silent letters are not sounded so would support my argument. My contention is that learning the phonetic systems is a waste of time because, the time it takes to learn all the ways of showing "mid tone unstressed 'a' " and "length of vowels" in particular words, would have been better spent learning the words directly in Thai. 

[Oxx]

15 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

 There you go again with your superior attitude "hopelessly" ! 

 

I can only conclude that you are unwilling or unable to learn from someone who has a far better grasp of the Thai language and its issues than you.  I won't be replying again.

[tgeezer]

56 minutes ago, Oxx said:

 

I can only conclude that you are unwilling or unable to learn from someone who has a far better grasp of the Thai language and its issues than you.  I won't be replying again.

 Your conclusion seems to be consistent with the novel practice of de-platforming.  I admit that I am unable to learn unsubstantiated claims but do my questions not show a willingness to learn? That a person who claims to have so much to teach but prefers to withdraw speaks volumes to the forum.   ตีหัวเท่ากับอายุซิ่   

[Nout]

It dreadful,  useless, meaningless and bears no resemblance to the two major phonetic alphabets which are rarely used in teaching languages anymore as they themselves are a separate and new language. Nor is the Google language any kind of meaning full transliteration. Does anybody know a decent alternative?