Be Careful going back to Australia

[simple1]

On 8/18/2020 at 7:06 PM, Dazinoz said:

I  have lost my Medicare and have to re-apply when I go back. I asked why basically I was told I wasn't a resident of Australia. I said I am not a resident of Thailand either as I am only a visitor.

 

Your reasoning is not accepted by Centrelink / SS law. Oz doesn't accept the argument, if that's what you used, you do not have permanent resident visa and only one year extensions. There have been rulings on this issue, you will have to look them up via Google.

Edited August 22, 2020 by simple1

[Dazinoz]

1 hour ago, simple1 said:

Your reasoning is not accepted by Centrelink / SS law. Oz doesn't accept the argument, if that's what you used, you do not have permanent resident visa and only one year extensions. There have been rulings on this issue, you will have to look them up via Google.

I just made that statement it wasn't an argument as I have not returned yet. That battle is yet to come.

[Dazinoz]

2 hours ago, AussieBob18 said:

Once you are at the age to receive pension and are eligible (eg. lived in Aust in the past for 10+ years) then if you move back to Australia you will immediatly get the pension. But one of the eligibility issues is that you have moved back permanently and intend to stay forever - you must state and show that.

 

Then after 2 years you can apply for portability to move to another country. However, if there is any suspicion that you always intended to return and then leave immediately after 2 years, they can deny portability. Example: If you have and maintain a Thai family in Thailand while living in Aust on the pension, they can deny portability - and many other reasons that they will not tell you until later. It is not automatic as some people have stated.

 

They introduced the '2 year rule' to stop people coming back and leaving again immediately they got the pension approved.  Now they are cracking down on all the Expats in places like Thailand that come back and 'serve out' the 2 years waiting period - who always had the intent to leave immediately they serve the 2 years out.

 

Things are getting harder and harder, and in the years ahead after Covid blowing the Budget, there will be more and more restrictions on all payments from CLink. Expats living overseas on the pension are an easy target, and most people in Aust agree with taking it away from us. Be careful and plan carefully.

When I return to Oz I have no intention to ever return to Thailand but convincing them maybe difficult. I will close all Thai bank accounts and try to get a letter from bank saying accounts closed due to returning to Oz. Same with my house rental agreement. Obviously I will also sell my car and any other possessions too big to take back but maybe a couple boxes full of stuff may assist in my argument.

 

I have always maintained an Australian address, bank accounts, credit cards, drivers license, shares, cryptos and bullion in Australian exchanges and even have to do a tax return this year on profit from silver sales. Again I hope all helps.

 

Any suggestions most welcome.

[simple1]

10 minutes ago, Dazinoz said:

When I return to Oz I have no intention to ever return to Thailand but convincing them maybe difficult. I will close all Thai bank accounts and try to get a letter from bank saying accounts closed due to returning to Oz. Same with my house rental agreement. Obviously I will also sell my car and any other possessions too big to take back but maybe a couple boxes full of stuff may assist in my argument.

 

I have always maintained an Australian address, bank accounts, credit cards, drivers license, shares, cryptos and bullion in Australian exchanges and even have to do a tax return this year on profit from silver sales. Again I hope all helps.

 

Any suggestions most welcome.

 

 

Sounds as though you will not have any problems. A great deal more than I had when returning to Oz. Would be a good idea to have some form of accommodation contract / property doco in Oz, Medibank card number is also very useful, if expired easy to get with showing accommodation info, plus the obvious - local Mb phone number

Edited August 22, 2020 by simple1

[Peterw42]

2 hours ago, AussieBob18 said:

Once you are at the age to receive pension and are eligible (eg. lived in Aust in the past for 10+ years) then if you move back to Australia you will immediatly get the pension. But one of the eligibility issues is that you have moved back permanently and intend to stay forever - you must state and show that.

 

Then after 2 years you can apply for portability to move to another country. However, if there is any suspicion that you always intended to return and then leave immediately after 2 years, they can deny portability. Example: If you have and maintain a Thai family in Thailand while living in Aust on the pension, they can deny portability - and many other reasons that they will not tell you until later. It is not automatic as some people have stated.

 

They introduced the '2 year rule' to stop people coming back and leaving again immediately they got the pension approved.  Now they are cracking down on all the Expats in places like Thailand that come back and 'serve out' the 2 years waiting period - who always had the intent to leave immediately they serve the 2 years out.

 

Things are getting harder and harder, and in the years ahead after Covid blowing the Budget, there will be more and more restrictions on all payments from CLink. Expats living overseas on the pension are an easy target, and most people in Aust agree with taking it away from us. Be careful and plan carefully.

Where do you get this from ??  That intent to leave when you are eligible for a portability, effects the portability ?

 

There is no legislation or statements etc that say anything about it. 

You can walk in to centerlink wearing an "I love Thailand" T shirt, on day one of your 2 year wait, and declare your intention to leave, it wont affect the portability when you become eligible.

Portability is portability, whether you plan to do it or decide later. 

 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Peterw42

[Dazinoz]

2 hours ago, simple1 said:

Sounds as though you will not have any problems. A great deal more than I had when returning to Oz. Would be a good idea to have some form of accommodation contract / property doco in Oz, Medibank card number is also very useful, if expired easy to get with showing accommodation info, plus the obvious - local Mb phone number

I also have an Oz mobile number I have had a couple year. I have a Medicare number but I have been kicked out of the system and another thing I have to apply for when I get back. I could be staying at my current Oz contact address, and if not I would be renting nearby (long story).

[AussieBob18]

8 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Where do you get this from ??  That intent to leave when you are eligible for a portability, effects the portability ?

 

There is no legislation or statements etc that say anything about it. 

You can walk in to centerlink wearing an "I love Thailand" T shirt, on day one of your 2 year wait, and declare your intention to leave, it wont affect the portability when you become eligible.

Portability is portability, whether you plan to do it or decide later. 

 

Wrong Peter.  If anyone is reading this who is going (or thinking of going) to go back and 'serve' their 2 years to get portability, be assured Peter is wrong. Do not let CLink think you are not going to stay in Australia permanently or you will be recorded as someone who always was going to leave again as soon as the 2 years is up.  Portability can be denied the pension.  When you arrive you have to be intending to stay in Australia, and you have to show that you intend to stay in Australia permanently.

 

https://guides.dss.gov.au/guide-social-security-law/7/1/4

7.1.4 Requirements for former residents of Australia receiving a portable pension

Summary

A person must satisfy the SSAct definition of Australian resident in order to lodge a proper claim for a pension. Generally, this means they must be residing in Australia when they lodge their claim.

A claim for pension can be lodged by a former resident who has resumed residence in Australia only if, on the evidence available, there is a clear intention to remain permanently in Australia.

A person who intends to return to Australia for a defined period only (e.g. 2 years) would not be an 'Australian resident' as per SSAct subsection 7(2).

Specific portability rules apply when a person who was formerly an Australian resident returns to Australia and becomes an Australian resident again and is successful in claiming Age or DSP.

 

Peter - what you are saying only applies to someone that has been living in Australia for a long time before they get the pension - then portability is very much automatic.

But it is not the same for someone that returns to live in Australia and claims the pension - both getting the pension and later portability are not automatic.

 

[AussieBob18]

8 hours ago, Dazinoz said:

When I return to Oz I have no intention to ever return to Thailand but convincing them maybe difficult. I will close all Thai bank accounts and try to get a letter from bank saying accounts closed due to returning to Oz. Same with my house rental agreement. Obviously I will also sell my car and any other possessions too big to take back but maybe a couple boxes full of stuff may assist in my argument.

I have always maintained an Australian address, bank accounts, credit cards, drivers license, shares, cryptos and bullion in Australian exchanges and even have to do a tax return this year on profit from silver sales. Again I hope all helps.

Any suggestions most welcome.

Unfortunately there is no specific rules to follow - must have done this and must not do that. The decision process in CLink is arbitrary and is done on a case by case basis. A lot of that decision making is about what CLink people have written on your file from past contacts, and from any records they have or can get about your assets and any business or family in Thailand.

By 'you' I mean any Aussiue who has been living in Thailand - not you specifically.

If I were 'you' I would make sure that you are letting CLink know that you are intending to return to Australia after you qualify for pension, because if you returned before that you could not live on the dole. Ask them what you should be doing to ensure there will be no problems claiming the age pension, and rental support if needed, when you return after the pension age qualification. That is when you can let them know that you always intended to return after you were able to get the pension, and that you will be staying forever thereafter. You can then tell them about keeping the bank accounts, licence, tax returns, etc.

Asking what you need to do to make sure it is clear that you will never be returning to Thailand to live - maybe a holiday but not to live - is an excellent way to ensure their records show your intentions.  But a warning - be truthful and dont lie about it or try to be smart - they have ways and means of getting information. As the saying goes - 'oh what webs we weave, when we start to deceive'.  It is too hard to remember all the lies - the truth is easy.

And I would also advise not to arrive the day after qualifying - too obvious - raises the system 'flags'.

Call CLink a few times in the months leading up to the date - keep asking what you need to do to get things cleared up and closed off in Thailand, and ready in Australia.

Tell them where you are planning to live when you first arrive, and what your plans are for the future in 5-10 years - where and when.

Discuss what car will you buy and when. Will you use a friend's car for a while. How much clothes you will need to get or not. Furniture. TV. etc etc etc. 

 

[Peterw42]

27 minutes ago, AussieBob18 said:

Wrong Peter.  If anyone is reading this who is going (or thinking of going) to go back and 'serve' their 2 years to get portability, be assured Peter is wrong. Do not let CLink think you are not going to stay in Australia permanently or you will be recorded as someone who always was going to leave again as soon as the 2 years is up.  Portability can be denied the pension.  When you arrive you have to be intending to stay in Australia, and you have to show that you intend to stay in Australia permanently.

 

https://guides.dss.gov.au/guide-social-security-law/7/1/4

7.1.4 Requirements for former residents of Australia receiving a portable pension

Summary

A person must satisfy the SSAct definition of Australian resident in order to lodge a proper claim for a pension. Generally, this means they must be residing in Australia when they lodge their claim.

A claim for pension can be lodged by a former resident who has resumed residence in Australia only if, on the evidence available, there is a clear intention to remain permanently in Australia.

A person who intends to return to Australia for a defined period only (e.g. 2 years) would not be an 'Australian resident' as per SSAct subsection 7(2).

Specific portability rules apply when a person who was formerly an Australian resident returns to Australia and becomes an Australian resident again and is successful in claiming Age or DSP.

 

Peter - what you are saying only applies to someone that has been living in Australia for a long time before they get the pension - then portability is very much automatic.

But it is not the same for someone that returns to live in Australia and claims the pension - both getting the pension and later portability are not automatic.

 

That paragraph is for "former residents" as in people who have given up their Residency/citizenship of Australia and taken up residency/citizenship of another country. The term resident is used in the official context, not a reference to being outside of Australia.

 

quote from above

"a person who was formerly an Australian resident returns to Australia and becomes an Australian resident again"

 

For 99% of us who haven't declared official residency of another country, still have resident for taxation purposes status etc, it doesn't apply.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Peterw42

[AussieBob18]

3 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

That paragraph is for "former residents" as in people who have given up their Residency/citizenship of Australia and taken up residency/citizenship of another country. The term resident is used in the official context, not a reference to being outside of australia.

quote from above

"a person who was formerly an Australian resident returns to Australia and becomes an Australian resident again"

For 99% of us who haven't declared official residency of another country, still have resident for taxation purposes etc, it doesnt apply.

 

Soory, wrong again Peter. If you have been living/staying outside of Australia for any extended period (no exact rule on that either) then you are no longer a 'resident of Australia'.

It is not a CLink requirement to be a resident of another country, to no longer be resident in Australia.

The ATO rules and regs regarding 'residency' are not the same as CLink - to ATO you can reside in another country and still be a tax resident in Australia.

https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/individuals/services/centrelink/age-pension/who-can-get-it/residence-rules/residence-descriptions

 

 

[daveAustin]

On 8/16/2020 at 6:22 AM, Grumpy one said:

Sounds like 1788 all over again

You go to Australia from England and stay there  

'78. I could be wrong, no google.

sorry, mixed up with Bastille 

Edited August 22, 2020 by daveAustin

[Will27]

13 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

That paragraph is for "former residents" as in people who have given up their Residency/citizenship of Australia and taken up residency/citizenship of another country. The term resident is used in the official context, not a reference to being outside of Australia.

 

quote from above

"a person who was formerly an Australian resident returns to Australia and becomes an Australian resident again"

 

For 99% of us who haven't declared official residency of another country, still have resident for taxation purposes status etc, it doesn't apply.

 

 

Sorry Peter, that is incorrect.

 

As AussieBob says, the ATO and Centrelink have different criteria for residency.

And BTW, just because you declare you're resident (for tax purposes) doesn't mean you actually

are.

 

I'm pretty sure you have discussed this before.

 

The vast majority of expats in Thailand, especially the pensions would be non-residents regardless

of what they declare.

 

Although that's a whole different issue.

[ellathai]

On 8/18/2020 at 3:27 PM, Dazinoz said:

I have been living in Thailand since 2013. Last August I went back to Oz for a visit. I am due the OAP in May 2022 when I turn 66 1/2. I visited Centrelink to try dispel rumours I had heard. The lady could not help me and gave me the number to the international services section of CL.

 

I phoned them and the guy stated that I had to be back in Australia 2 years before I could actually claim the pension. I said I knew about the 2 year portability rule and he said again I needed to be living back there 2 years BEFORE.

 

Recently talking to a friend here who confirmed that they are applying that (unwritten ??) rule as his friend was told the same and application denied. He appealed twice and denied both times. He then went to the Ombudsman and he overturned the rulings and was back paid from eligibility date.

 

So interesting and frustrating times ahead for me.

So your friend is saying that he was granted the pension by the Ombudsman and didn;t do the two years and returned back to Thailand with the pension.?

Do l understand that correctly?

[ellathai]

On 8/18/2020 at 4:10 PM, Dazinoz said:

This where I get conflicting stories. My accountant and many people on the Aussie Pensioner forums say that I am entitled to it at 66 1/2 even if I went back to Australia that week. Then If i wanted to make it portable I need to stay 2 years in Oz. When I go back I won't be coming back to Thailand.

 

Others, like yourself are saying I have to be back in Oz 2 years before I can receive it.

Your entitled to it immediately when you return to Australia providing you are of age

 

[ellathai]

On 8/18/2020 at 8:34 PM, UncleMhee said:

Version 1.271 - Released 10 August 2020

7.1.4 Requirements for former residents of Australia receiving a portable pension

Summary

A person must satisfy the SSAct definition of Australian resident in order to lodge a proper claim for a pension. Generally, this means they must be residing in Australia when they lodge their claim.

A claim for pension can be lodged by a former resident who has resumed residence in Australia only if, on the evidence available, there is a clear intention to remain permanently in Australia. A person who intends to return to Australia for a defined period only (e.g. 2 years) would not be an 'Australian resident' as per SSAct subsection 7(2).

Specific portability rules apply when a person who was formerly an Australian resident returns to Australia and becomes an Australian resident again and is successful in claiming Age or DSP.

Portability for former residents - Age, DSP

Since 20 September 2000, a former resident who returns to Australia and is granted Age or DSP, or who transfers to Age under SS(Admin)Act section 12, cannot take that pension outside Australia if they leave within 2 years of having resumed residence in Australia. The purpose of this legislation is to discourage people from travelling to Australia just to get an Australian pension to take back overseas.

The 2-year period includes, as separate full days, the day on which the recipient returns to Australia to resume Australian residence and the day on which they leave again.

There is no discretionary power to allow portability of Age or DSP during the 2-year period (note, some exceptions to the 2-year rule apply - see below).

Payment may be suspended for short overseas absences during the 2-year period and does not have to be reclaimed on return to Australia. A short absence from Australia (as long as the person is still classed as an Australian resident) will not impact on the end date of the 2-year period (i.e. the absence still counts towards the person's 2-year period).

 

https://guides.dss.gov.au/guide-social-security-law/7/1/4

 

Well that's as clear as mud

[Dazinoz]

1 hour ago, ellathai said:

So your friend is saying that he was granted the pension by the Ombudsman and didn;t do the two years and returned back to Thailand with the pension.?

Do l understand that correctly?

It was a friend of a friend told me the story. I don't know if he came back or intended to or not.

 

Actually thinking back the guy returned to Oz and applied for the pension but he had not been back in Oz for 2 years so they would not approve his pension.

 

Thats what I have been told by Cl that I need to be back in Oz 2 years before they will approve pension. I told them no intention coming back here he said didn't matter I had to be back 2 years.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Dazinoz

[Dazinoz]

1 hour ago, ellathai said:

Your entitled to it immediately when you return to Australia providing you are of age

 

Like I said, that is not what the ISS section of Cl is telling me. Others (not Cl) have said like you, I mentioned my accountant said like you and the Cl guy just said who should you believe, someone who works for Cl or someone who does not.

 

I will take the advice of another poster and start the battle before I head back. I am still not entitled until May 2022 and not sure when I can leave Thailand due to commitments.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Dazinoz

[Dazinoz]

23 hours ago, AussieBob18 said:

Unfortunately there is no specific rules to follow - must have done this and must not do that. The decision process in CLink is arbitrary and is done on a case by case basis. A lot of that decision making is about what CLink people have written on your file from past contacts, and from any records they have or can get about your assets and any business or family in Thailand.

By 'you' I mean any Aussiue who has been living in Thailand - not you specifically.

If I were 'you' I would make sure that you are letting CLink know that you are intending to return to Australia after you qualify for pension, because if you returned before that you could not live on the dole. Ask them what you should be doing to ensure there will be no problems claiming the age pension, and rental support if needed, when you return after the pension age qualification. That is when you can let them know that you always intended to return after you were able to get the pension, and that you will be staying forever thereafter. You can then tell them about keeping the bank accounts, licence, tax returns, etc.

Asking what you need to do to make sure it is clear that you will never be returning to Thailand to live - maybe a holiday but not to live - is an excellent way to ensure their records show your intentions.  But a warning - be truthful and dont lie about it or try to be smart - they have ways and means of getting information. As the saying goes - 'oh what webs we weave, when we start to deceive'.  It is too hard to remember all the lies - the truth is easy.

And I would also advise not to arrive the day after qualifying - too obvious - raises the system 'flags'.

Call CLink a few times in the months leading up to the date - keep asking what you need to do to get things cleared up and closed off in Thailand, and ready in Australia.

Tell them where you are planning to live when you first arrive, and what your plans are for the future in 5-10 years - where and when.

Discuss what car will you buy and when. Will you use a friend's car for a while. How much clothes you will need to get or not. Furniture. TV. etc etc etc. 

 

Thanks for that. I will take your advice and start contraction them. I have a Cl account online so I probably should use that as a contact medium.

[ellathai]

12 minutes ago, Dazinoz said:

Like I said, that is not what the ISS section of Cl is telling me. Others (not Cl) have said like you, I mentioned my accountant said like you and the Cl guy just said who should you believe, someone who works for Cl or someone who does not.

 

I will take the advice of another poster and start the battle before I head back. I am still not entitled until May 2022 and not sure when I can leave Thailand due to commitments.

l talked to a CI guy as well and he said the opposite to your bloke. Unreal would be nice if they get there act together it's our  lives there playing with. I'm due for OAP since last June but haven't decided when i'm heading back yet. l wish you luck

[ellathai]

28 minutes ago, Dazinoz said:

It was a friend of a friend told me the story. I don't know if he came back or intended to or not.

 

Actually thinking back the guy returned to Oz and applied for the pension but he had not been back in Oz for 2 years so they would not approve his pension.

 

Thats what I have been told by Cl that I need to be back in Oz 2 years before they will approve pension. I told them no intention coming back here he said didn't matter I had to be back 2 years.

l will give them a ring in a day or 2 and let you know what they say.

[Dazinoz]

8 minutes ago, ellathai said:

l wish you luck

You too.

 

If you find anything out let me know please.

[ellathai]

Just now, Dazinoz said:

You too.

 

If you find anything out let me know please.

Shall do.

Last lime l rang was maybe 7 months ago, the CL guy was very pleasant and helpful, be nice to get him again

[Dazinoz]

2 minutes ago, ellathai said:

Shall do.

Last lime l rang was maybe 7 months ago, the CL guy was very pleasant and helpful, be nice to get him again

I went to Cl office and the lady I got knew nothing and gave me the number of the International Services Section and he is the one who gave the " can not" story.

 

Hmmm, where have I heard that saying before?

 

[ellathai]

12 minutes ago, Dazinoz said:

I went to Cl office and the lady I got knew nothing and gave me the number of the International Services Section and he is the one who gave the " can not" story.

 

Hmmm, where have I heard that saying before?

 

It was the international services l rang 00661362223455 maybe its just me but l prefer dealing with blokes they seem helpful.

[scorecard]

On 8/16/2020 at 1:23 PM, ezzra said:

not entirely true, if you can prove that you're a resident of a foreign country you will be permitted to leave without border force approval of fit to fly certificate...

 

https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/leaving-australia#toc-2

True. 

[Dazinoz]

53 minutes ago, ellathai said:

It was the international services l rang 00661362223455 maybe its just me but l prefer dealing with blokes they seem helpful.

Well I sure don't phone hoping I will get some one not helpful.

[simple1]

14 hours ago, Dazinoz said:

It was a friend of a friend told me the story. I don't know if he came back or intended to or not.

 

Actually thinking back the guy returned to Oz and applied for the pension but he had not been back in Oz for 2 years so they would not approve his pension.

 

Thats what I have been told by Cl that I need to be back in Oz 2 years before they will approve pension. I told them no intention coming back here he said didn't matter I had to be back 2 years.

When I returned to Oz from more than two years living in Thailand to apply for Age Pension, there was no requirement to wait two years for payments to commence. All you have to do is prove your residency In Australia, e.g. bank info, rental agreement, driving license etc. What I actually did was apply for Newstart, then rolled over to Age Pension. The processing time for Age Pension application is approx 13 weeks.

[ellathai]

43 minutes ago, simple1 said:

When I returned to Oz from more than two years living in Thailand to apply for Age Pension, there was no requirement to wait two years for payments to commence. All you have to do is prove your residency In Australia, e.g. bank info, rental agreement, driving license etc. What I actually did was apply for Newstart, then rolled over to Age Pension. The processing time for Age Pension application is approx 13 weeks.

Can l ask how long ago was that?

[simple1]

16 minutes ago, ellathai said:

Can l ask how long ago was that?

Five years ago, but I'm sure the T&C's have not changed, except for aspects of financials. One can apply 13 weeks prior to the commencement date of the Age Pension, that's why I applied for NewStart (now called JobSeeker) first, only takes an hour or so if you have the necessary doco. obviously must be in Oz. More detail...

 

https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/individuals/services/centrelink/age-pension/how-claim

 

 

Edited August 24, 2020 by simple1

[ozfarang]

21 hours ago, ellathai said:

Can l ask how long ago was that?

I was living in Thailand 18 months prior to returning to Australia to apply for the aged pension.

I went through the same procedure 18 months ago and it was exactly as @simple1 described, no changes. The wait for me was 11 weeks to get the full aged pension after application.