Thailand needs to go electric!

[Crossy]

I see it going something like this, no timescales:-

• Hybrid / range extender EV - already here but rapidly being outpaced by pure EV.
• Pure EV using lithium batteries - mining lithium is more than somewhat polluting, but the batteries are highly recyclable and the "million mile" battery is on the horizon. More renewable energy will kill off the "just moving the air pollution" argument once and for all.
• Pure EV using hydrogen and fuel cells - powered by water and sunshine, the ultimate clean transport. As H₂ storage tech improves this could be the future, but we can't wait.

We shall see.

[Crossy]

Since we are talking about power generation, the UK is right now producing 52% of the electricity supply from renewables and ZERO from coal.

 

Monitor it here https://gridwatch.co.uk/

 

[digger70]

7 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

Really? And the power to run the charging circuit comes from where exactly?

 

Which stage is over 100% efficient? Are you saying that it uses less energy to split the water to HHO then you recover from re-combining it back to water?

 

C'mon Crossy You a smarter chang Fi than me.

Even I know that cars with combustion engines  have batteries, except the old Crank Handle ones. 

Nothing is 100% efficient when one tries to convert anything into Power.

Why would one want to Re combine the HHO back to water ? 

 

[Crossy]

6 minutes ago, digger70 said:

Why would one want to Re combine the HHO back to water ? 

 

Isn't that how you get the energy back out of it? Otherwise why did you create it in the first place?

 

If not please enlighten me.

 

Of course, I may be missing something here ...

 

Why not just build one and prove us all wrong?

 

 

[digger70]

4 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Isn't that how you get the energy back out of it?

 

If not please enlighten me.

 

Of course, I may be missing something here ...

 

Why not just build one and prove us all wrong?

 

 

No.

The HHO runs the combustion engine by burning (exploding) same as Petrol .

There can be a very small amount of water left in the process that will go out  with the exhaust gasses .

I don't Have to Prove Anything I have built Fuel Cells Back in Aus . 

[Crossy]

5 minutes ago, digger70 said:

The HHO runs the combustion engine by burning (exploding) same as Petrol .

 

Isn't that what I said? The result is water.

 

There is no doubt that hydrogen is clean and works either in a fuel cell or IC engine. What does NOT work is creating the hydrogen on-vehicle.

[ExpatOilWorker]

Electric bus already in service in Bangkok. 

 

[scammed]

7 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Electric bus already in service in Bangkok. 

 

we all know that the technology work and is mature,

but most of us also know that 'eco'friendly' is pure marketing  and got nothing to do with reality.

i dont mind electric cars, but i do mind subsidies

that pervert the market

Edited September 5, 2020 by scammed

[digger70]

2 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Isn't that what I said? The result is water.

 

If it really works why are the major players investing megabucks doing something else?

 

There is no doubt that hydrogen is clean and works. What does NOT work is creating the hydrogen on-vehicle.

No you said: Why would one want to Re combine the HHO back to water ?  

What you said isn't not Using the HHO  '

The Mega Players Want to Sell the HHO  .And build Electric Cars . Remember that they sold HHO than Converted that in Electricity to run electric cars in Europe. 

I did also say that it was Tricky to make the HHO on the "Run" because it takes a fair bit of power to make it and to Store it.

[digger70]

2 minutes ago, scammed said:

we all know that the technology work and is mature,

but most of us also know that 'eco'friendly' is pure marketing  and got nothing to do with reality.

i dont mind electric cars, but i do mind subsidies

that pervert the market

Eco Friendly ,that's a Laugh . Dirty Electricity from Dirty Power station.

[jacob29]

7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Not interested in anything that can't drive 7 hours with a 5 minute refill/ recharge.

Fair enough, but that sounds like a niche requirement. Others won't be interested in anything that requires a visit to a station to fuel it, given the average user will be able to charge fully at home or work.

Edited September 5, 2020 by jacob29

[jacob29]

2 hours ago, Thomas J said:

1. There is almost nothing dirtier than the mining and production of batteries. 

2. Lithium is so toxic that in the event of a car crash with an electric vehicle they send out the Hazardous Materials Unit to the scene of the crash in the USA

3. In the USA 40% of power comes from coal, 40% from natural gas, 10% from nuclear and 10% from wind/solar/hydro

So burning petroleum is bad, but burning coal, natural gas, and nuclear material to produce the electricity for cars is "good"

 

It's not the burning of fossil fuels, it's the relative inefficiency compared to commercial scale generation, and how it creates pollution in large cities. If the power generators were located inside the city limits contributing to smog, you would have a point. Never mind that renewables are ramping fast, and this will likely accelerate. They also account for more US power than your stated 10%.

 

The mining/recycling issues are solvable, far from a showstopper. Sadly they probably won't be solved without the financial incentives to do so.

[xtrnuno41]

13 hours ago, jacob29 said:

Estimates of AC runtime are in the ballpark of 100 hours. If by short journey you meant days stuck in heavy traffic, then sure we're not there yet.

 

Source? They have lower maintenance costs, simpler to produce, greater longevity, which aside from the battery results in a necessarily lower footprint. The power generation is more efficient when done at scale, even at a dirty coal plant, than combustion to drive motion.

 

The battery is the only wildcard, so focus on that - but even that can find a second life at a residential installation. The next battery is supposed to yield 1 million miles, lasting 16 years (we will find out in two weeks), which should handily put those concerns to rest.

 

Tesla battery has an 8 year warranty.  Where did you get 3 years from?

 

It's good to be critical, but people should be researching these claims before repeating them. Don't you pause to think how these bogus claims began circulating? That there isn't a vested interest to slow down the transition? I know there are vested interests on both sides, but come on, you don't get much bigger than big oil.

Personal experience with electric bike (LiPo batteries). Checked the batteries inside and were swollen, done.

No, charged them and the took out all energy again and again. Thats what they are for. Preventing memory, tough LiPo shouldnt be bothered much with that. Renewing would cost me a third of bike price.

 

With a car, your car wouldnt be worth anything after some years, as it is costly to change, a third of price?! So with a car of $30000, you need to pay $10000 for new batteries. You ll buy second hand then 3 years old? Maybe as price would be $5000 or less then, you know batteries will come up and it will cost you. 

You have throw away cars then. Not economical for you, not durable, it is only good for business, for the makers.

Batteries are also sensitive on temperature. So with a cold winter day, your capacity could be way less. Or are they conditioned in the car? Cost you again power.

 

As long as all electricity isnt generated in form of wind or solar, the car has a CO2 emission. It will have that always anyway. And if they become throwaway cars even bigger.

You also create situation, only wealthy people can drive a car. OK this situation is now also thriving, as they want you to pay more and more for gas and for that leave the car. Common people cant drive a car. 

They discourage you with higher taxes, not to drive. In mean time government gets a fat pot of money as people still want to drive.

 

Here we have a stupid situation. Electricity generated by wind is too much, farmers with green houses are asked (demanded?) to use electricity by switching on their lights in daylight, in their greenhouses. Makes no sense to me. 

Something is wrong in the situation.

 

[jacob29]

1 hour ago, xtrnuno41 said:

With a car, your car wouldnt be worth anything after some years, as it is costly to change, a third of price?! So with a car of $30000, you need to pay $10000 for new batteries. You ll buy second hand then 3 years old? Maybe as price would be $5000 or less then, you know batteries will come up and it will cost you. 

You have throw away cars then. Not economical for you, not durable, it is only good for business, for the makers.

 

Use real world data, not your intuition of what should happen. In the real world, Tesla's have good resale value. In fact, better than the average IC car. With fewer moving parts, they have greater non-battery related longevity. Making it the exact opposite of what you have suggested about throw away cars, they have every reason to be able to survive longer than traditional cars.

[xtrnuno41]

15 minutes ago, jacob29 said:

Use real world data, not your intuition of what should happen. In the real world, Tesla's have good resale value. In fact, better than the average IC car. With fewer moving parts, they have greater non-battery related longevity. Making it the exact opposite of what you have suggested about throw away cars, they have every reason to be able to survive longer than traditional cars.

If you dont have the batteries, the car is out of order. No matter if they have less components or how good they might be. It doesnt run. And it doenst matter if it is a Tesla, Maybach, BMW. Without batteries its junk.  

[Grumpy John]

19 hours ago, jacob29 said:

Fair enough, but that sounds like a niche requirement. Others won't be interested in anything that requires a visit to a station to fuel it, given the average user will be able to charge fully at home or work.

We have that now with IC vehicles of different size and purpose.  Some people buy little underpowered sch1t boxes that get good fuel consumption and others buy pick-ups tHat have a multitude of uses albeit at a higher cost for fuel. But that could be a hybrid with a good percentage of Hydrogen generated on board.  My pickup gets almost 700km from a 64 litre tank of diesel.  I'd be happy getting 1000+ by generating some Hydrogen from water as I go.  

[jacob29]

22 hours ago, xtrnuno41 said:

If you dont have the batteries, the car is out of order. No matter if they have less components or how good they might be. It doesnt run. And it doenst matter if it is a Tesla, Maybach, BMW. Without batteries its junk.  

The battery lasts way longer than your stated 3 years. At 8 years, it still has plenty of capacity left, that's just where the warranty ends. You cannot compare it to a lipo in your phone or bike, as while the battery chemistry is essentially the same, the charging works quite a bit differently to increase longevity.

 

It doesn't matter what you think the resale value of a Tesla should be, only what it is in the real world. Right now, it has better resale than IC cars. Never mind that replacing a battery is trivial, if the battery died early for some reason. A one year old Tesla with the battery removed would continue to have excellent resale value.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 9/5/2020 at 2:33 PM, Crossy said:

 

But you cannot run the vehicle on hydrogen generated on the vehicle. To do so would require at least one of the processes to be more than 100% efficient.

 

Hydrogen as a fuel is awkward stuff, it's difficult to store in any sensible quantity and has a nasty habit of blowing up in the event of a containment failure. I would not want to be anywhere near a re-fuelling station.

 

Years ago some London buses were powered by hydrogen.

The problems can be overcome and it's better than big batteries.

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, jacob29 said:

The battery lasts way longer than your stated 3 years. At 8 years, it still has plenty of capacity left, that's just where the warranty ends. You cannot compare it to a lipo in your phone or bike, as while the battery chemistry is essentially the same, the charging works quite a bit differently to increase longevity.

 

It doesn't matter what you think the resale value of a Tesla should be, only what it is in the real world. Right now, it has better resale than IC cars. Never mind that replacing a battery is trivial, if the battery died early for some reason. A one year old Tesla with the battery removed would continue to have excellent resale value.

Only popular with rich trendy city types. They'll never be popular in rural areas, IMO, till they can go a lot further without a long recharge time. Can put a can with petrol in the car boot, but can't put a spare big battery in the boot.

[Bandersnatch]

On 9/4/2020 at 2:27 PM, scammed said:

no for christ sake cum off it

 

The film includes a great deal of outdated, inaccurate and misleading information.

 

Watch this review of the film 

 

Planet of the Humans : Let's just have a think

[Bandersnatch]

On 9/4/2020 at 6:10 PM, digger70 said:

Big Scam Biggest Rip off yet.

How are the Power stations going to keep up with all the power using vehicles? 

Make More Dirty electric power? More Dirty Power stations 

Who's going to benefit ? Power Station Moguls. Car Factories 

Price of Electricity will go Sky high. 

My home solar system is designed to charge an electric car. For those without solar, then smart grids, time of use electric pricing and bi-directional EV charging will soon mitigate the need for peaker power plants.   

[Bandersnatch]

On 9/5/2020 at 1:44 PM, scammed said:

i dont mind electric cars, but i do mind subsidies

that pervert the market

I agree with you

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesellsmoor/2019/06/15/united-states-spend-ten-times-more-on-fossil-fuel-subsidies-than-education/#3c9eb2974473

 

[marinediscoking]

Electric cars have already won the war, icu engines are becoming a thing of the past. Even VW lied about how much they still pollute in the usa a few years ago and had to buy back the cars.

Amazing how many people believe the myth about hydrogen being the future for cars. This has been proven many years ago that it was propaganda put out by oil and car company's under the mandate by the California air resource board requiring auto manufacturers must sell zero emissions cars or face heavy fines, Remember the GM EV-1. This is when many writers on their behalf got paid well to perpetuate it. 

 

Simple fact:  It takes an amazing amount of electricity to produce a liter of hydrogen. Then it has to transported by a diesel truck to a filling station which negates any energy savings. Fell cells are incredibly expensive to make and complex to fix. 

 

Very little is lost by electric lines sending power long distances. A minority of electricity is produced by coal, this is still true in many countries however it has become much cleaner with advanced scrubbers at the power station. Coal as power an energy source gets smaller and smaller every year.

 

Thailand does not want electric cars no matter what the gov. says. The only fully electric car sold here is the Nissan leaf with a 40kwh battery for 2 million baht. This is equivalent to an ice car that sells here for 600K so they can talk all they want but they won't reduce the import tax.  Same car in the usa sells for about half that price. 

 

Many people who bought nissan leafs since 2011 still drive them and batteries are still good, some who have lost some range go to independent specials who replace just the degraded cells, not the whole pack for a few hundred dollars to get back to 90% capacity. A 9 year old used leaf sells for 5-8K usd in the states, so it has excellent resale value. 

[jacob29]

8 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Only popular with rich trendy city types. They'll never be popular in rural areas, IMO, till they can go a lot further without a long recharge time. Can put a can with petrol in the car boot, but can't put a spare big battery in the boot.

Rural consumers aren't going to shape the market globally, they're a small and shrinking demographic.

 

In Thailand, the savings will decide. The price is still way too high to be competitive in the budget market, but it will get there. If Somchai can halve his running costs, but requires spending extra time hanging around at a charging station - that's an easy decision.

[JesseBronson]

I am looking at a new electric car, but not until they ditch the import duties ! 

 

2018 Model X P100D price in USA $78,100 = 2.5 million baht.   Tesla.com  https://www.tesla.com/inventory/used/mx?TRIM=100DE&arrangeby=plh&zip=95113

 

2018 Model X P100D price in Thailand USD$ 188,000  =   5,890,000 baht.  https://www.one2car.com/en/for-sale/tesla-model-x-100d-bangkok-metropolitan-pattanakarn-rama-ix/6643701

 

Gotta prop up the Thai electric car guy with connections that used to run a noodle shop until he makes it under this government. 

 

[Bandersnatch]

44 minutes ago, JesseBronson said:

I am looking at a new electric car, but not until they ditch the import duties ! 

 

Now Tesla Shanghai is in production, we just have to wait until they start exporting to Thailand. Import tax on Chinese cars is 0% compared to 80% from Europe, 40% from Korea and 20% from Japan. 

 

[essox essox]

On 9/4/2020 at 12:31 PM, Susco said:

Don't think they run any power over telephone and internet wires

and just HOW do you know which iz WHICH ?????!!!!!

[marinediscoking]

19 minutes ago, essox essox said:

and just HOW do you know which iz WHICH ?????!!!!!

Power wires are always at the top of pole, all others must be placed lower. Also you can tell by the gauge of the wires. 

[Grumpy John]

On 9/7/2020 at 10:38 AM, Bandersnatch said:

My home solar system is designed to charge an electric car. For those without solar, then smart grids, time of use electric pricing and bi-directional EV charging will soon mitigate the need for peaker power plants.   

What is your home solar system? How many kilowatts? How much use will the electric car get? (Text removed by Moderator)   I have a solar powered pump.  I'll put that in perspective.  It runs off one cell and takes over an hour to fill a 10L bucket. And back in Australia I had a 2kW grid linked solar array that almost eliminated my usage fee from the power company because I was selling what I didn't use to them.  And when things go wrong because the government has shut down coal power stations it's Joe public that has to suffer.  Why?  Because the grid linked system shuts down when the grid shuts down as a safety measure...which includes the solar power to my house. 

Edited September 8, 2020 by Sheryl
Profanity removed by Moderator

[Rancid]

On 9/4/2020 at 5:27 PM, scammed said:

no for christ sake cum off it

 

Very interesting movie. Progressives hated it as it puts lie to the many claims of renewable green energy, as it turns out it isn't. Sadly climate change is not about cleaning up the planet, but simply another profit zone for the usual gang of environmental rapists. Unfortunately the excellent questions it raised were immediately swept under the carpet by the compliant & owned media.