Some Estimates For Refurbishing Job

[yeti]

Hi,

I have a condo to refurbish, and asked few contractors, for plans and cost estimate.

None of them were able to provide a satisfactory 1st draft for floor planning, but I got some cost estimates.

Those are before any negotiation, please tell me if they are completely off, or not that much.

Supply and install water supply and drainage to kitchen 9500 THB

Supply and install kitchen floor tiling 1300/m²

Supply and install suspended ceiling throughout, gypsum type 1200/m²

Supply and install gypsum type partition walls 1200/m² (how do "gypsum" wall look like?)

Supply and install new interior doors 11200/door

Supply and install electric sockets throughout 1250/socket

Supply and install AV points 1750/point

Prepare and renovate flooring (parquet) throughout 800/m²

Prepare and paint walling throughout 250/m²

Prepare and paint ceilings throughout 200/m² (I was thinking it was more expensive to paint the ceiling than the walls)

Permit and approval application 4500

Thxs for your help

Yeti

[yeti]

Come on, nobody had to do this kind of things recently?

[chownah]

Really its hard to say. I live in a village and hire my own help so I get everything done really cheap so I'll just give you some ideas and you can decide if the prices are right or not.

supply and install new interior doors 11,200 baht each.........a new interior door can be had for as cheap as about 1,500 baht...is this the kind of door you will be getting?

Supply and install electric sockets throughout 1250/socket

is the wiring already there? if so then a socket can be installed in about a half hour more or less and a cheap socket can be purchased for next to nothing...don't know really but I imagine under 200 baht....you might be paying 1000 baht for a half hour's work...even a really really highly paid worker will probably make less than 500 baht per hour...and I'll be willing to bet that the person doing the work will probably be paid about half that..or maybe even less!!!!!

Supply and install kitchen floor tiling 1300/m²

I had a 6 x 8 metre room tiled...I hired a contractor which is unusual but I couldn't find a day worker who could do a good job...... and two workers did the entire thing in less than a day....tile costs ball park 200 baht per square metre for a standard pattern grade A tile....I just asked the wife what we paid them and she say it was 50 baht per square metre but we got a bargain and it usually costs 70 baht per square metre and maybe some people even pay 100 baht per square metre for tile work...almost forgot we also had to buy a couple of bags of cement to make the adhesive and that was about 120 baht per bag.

I'll stop now....does it seem like your prices might be high?

Edited May 3, 2007 by chownah

[lingling]

Supply and install kitchen floor tiling 1300/m²

That's B1000 more per square meter than I just paid for tiles and installation in our new house. The tiles were B210/m2 for some really nice grade A cotto tiles.

Supply and install suspended ceiling throughout, gypsum type 1200/m²

Supply and install gypsum type partition walls 1200/m² (how do "gypsum" wall look like?)

Supply and install new interior doors 11200/door

Supply and install electric sockets throughout 1250/socket

Supply and install AV points 1750/point

Prepare and renovate flooring (parquet) throughout 800/m²

Prepare and paint walling throughout 250/m²

Prepare and paint ceilings throughout 200/m² (I was thinking it was more expensive to paint the ceiling than the walls)

Permit and approval application 4500

Sorry, tell that contractor to go f--- himself. Or don't even bother contacting him, just get another one. These prices are way worse than "rakhaa farang". As a comparison, I just paid B380/m2 for brand new mai-teng parquet while your contractor want to charge you 800/m² to renovate existing parquet?

[The Skipper]

Maybe the high costs includes ripping it out and doing it again and again, till it's correct.

What ever you do, set the standards/ time frame and don't pay untill you get what you want. Include penalties for non performance etc...Check for refrences and personally inspect previous work. Do not pay untill it is correct since you will get zero help once money changes hands.

Remember, you are Farang...nobody will care if you get screwed.

My friend had his bathroom tiled twice and the drainage still goes the wrong way. The workmanship poor,.. price was outrageous too.... and it took 3 months! ....12,000 bt later and it still needs re-doing.

Edited May 3, 2007 by The Skipper

[simcity]

i got my place paint ( 2 years ago ) from homepro ' who over charge ', but i was in the rush !

the cost was 80 baht the / m2, ( under coat plus two coat ) i bough the paint .

[chownah]

Supply and install kitchen floor tiling 1300/m²

I had a 6 x 8 metre room tiled...I hired a contractor which is unusual but I couldn't find a day worker who could do a good job...... and two workers did the entire thing in less than a day....tile costs ball park 200 baht per square metre for a standard pattern grade A tile....I just asked the wife what we paid them and she say it was 50 baht per square metre but we got a bargain and it usually costs 70 baht per square metre and maybe some people even pay 100 baht per square metre for tile work...almost forgot we also had to buy a couple of bags of cement to make the adhesive and that was about 120 baht per bag.

I made a mistake.....the area tiled was actually 6 x 4 metres....which was tiled in less than a day.

Chownah

[yeti]

Well the whole condo needs to be tear down and everything redone. With this company the project would be managed by a farang, and 12 workers would be on it.

That could explain this company being expensive, but not a difference that huge compared to what you guys have posted.

Thank you

Yeti

[mosquitoman]

Hi,

I have a condo to refurbish, and asked few contractors, for plans and cost estimate.

None of them were able to provide a satisfactory 1st draft for floor planning, but I got some cost estimates.

Those are before any negotiation, please tell me if they are completely off, or not that much.

Supply and install water supply and drainage to kitchen 9500 THB

Supply and install kitchen floor tiling 1300/m²

Supply and install suspended ceiling throughout, gypsum type 1200/m²

Supply and install gypsum type partition walls 1200/m² (how do "gypsum" wall look like?)

Supply and install new interior doors 11200/door

Supply and install electric sockets throughout 1250/socket

Supply and install AV points 1750/point

Prepare and renovate flooring (parquet) throughout 800/m²

Prepare and paint walling throughout 250/m²

Prepare and paint ceilings throughout 200/m² (I was thinking it was more expensive to paint the ceiling than the walls)

Permit and approval application 4500

Thxs for your help

Yeti

Without actually seeing the property, It would be very hard to judge. There are so many variables.

MM

[yeti]

Hi,

I have a condo to refurbish, and asked few contractors, for plans and cost estimate.

None of them were able to provide a satisfactory 1st draft for floor planning, but I got some cost estimates.

Those are before any negotiation, please tell me if they are completely off, or not that much.

Supply and install water supply and drainage to kitchen 9500 THB

Supply and install kitchen floor tiling 1300/m²

Supply and install suspended ceiling throughout, gypsum type 1200/m²

Supply and install gypsum type partition walls 1200/m² (how do "gypsum" wall look like?)

Supply and install new interior doors 11200/door

Supply and install electric sockets throughout 1250/socket

Supply and install AV points 1750/point

Prepare and renovate flooring (parquet) throughout 800/m²

Prepare and paint walling throughout 250/m²

Prepare and paint ceilings throughout 200/m² (I was thinking it was more expensive to paint the ceiling than the walls)

Permit and approval application 4500

Thxs for your help

Yeti

Without actually seeing the property, It would be very hard to judge. There are so many variables.

MM

There are many variables, which all are in the estimation I was sent. I just published few lines here for the most common types of work to have a better idea as to where to situate this company in term of pricing.

[ProThaiExpat]

You might sit down with the falang and get specific regarding labor and material costs.

If you cannot buy the materials yourself, expect the contractor to put a surcharge on the price of everything purchased for the time it takes to purchase, transport, front the money etc.

Then you have the deposit required by the condo management to protect their building.

If your in a high rise, many more costs for hauling the demolished material out of the building and disposing of it legally.

Likewise, the time it take to work with an elevator occupied by others. Is there a freight elevator, would he be given keys. I doubt it.

There is just no comparing costs of construction between a high rise remodel and a single family dwelling. Likewise, those that have posted what 'they got it for" are not factoring in at least a 30% contractors fee for bearing all the headaches, contingencies, bad quotes and unforeseen expenses.

Regarding the gypsum wall question, most walls in the U.S. are gypsum and consist of framing upon which gypsum is nailed. I would suggest you use metal studs, standard and better fire resistant than wood. I suspect they are quoting for metal.

Door costs vary so widely, as does baseboard. High quality doors are almost unlimited in cost. Solid core doors cost a lot more than those that aren't and panel doors cost more than flat. And the beat goes on.

I would ask the contractor for a cost breakdown of the job between materials and labor and even ask for costs of big items such as doors, etc. Then shop the big items.

Labor usually runs a third of the cost of materials for a job but could go as high as 50% if the labor is really professional and most of the work is gypsum, cheap doors, etc.

Are the walls demising your condo gypsum, or plaster and brick. Will he be required to create his own channels in the brick for electric?

Good luck.

[yeti]

You might sit down with the falang and get specific regarding labor and material costs.

That's the next step after visiting some of their previous work.

If you cannot buy the materials yourself, expect the contractor to put a surcharge on the price of everything purchased for the time it takes to purchase, transport, front the money etc.

I know that this surchrage should be expected, but they have their own factory and warehouse, so it should not be that important.

Then you have the deposit required by the condo management to protect their building.

Not quoted yet, but I'm sure it will be another line in the quotation.

If your in a high rise, many more costs for hauling the demolished material out of the building and disposing of it legally.

It's the 5th floor, and anyway, already quoted separately.

Likewise, the time it take to work with an elevator occupied by others. Is there a freight elevator, would he be given keys. I doubt it.

There is an elevator they can be given the keys to.

There is just no comparing costs of construction between a high rise remodel and a single family dwelling. Likewise, those that have posted what 'they got it for" are not factoring in at least a 30% contractors fee for bearing all the headaches, contingencies, bad quotes and unforeseen expenses.

I don't expect to pay the same price as chownah for example, but I don't expect to pay 10 times the price either.

Regarding the gypsum wall question, most walls in the U.S. are gypsum and consist of framing upon which gypsum is nailed. I would suggest you use metal studs, standard and better fire resistant than wood. I suspect they are quoting for metal.

I met this company at a fair yesterday, and now I know what it's about. Thanks for your suggestion.

Door costs vary so widely, as does baseboard. High quality doors are almost unlimited in cost. Solid core doors cost a lot more than those that aren't and panel doors cost more than flat. And the beat goes on.

That's why I don't exactly understand how he can send me an estimate for things like doors before agreeing on what kind of doors we want...

I would ask the contractor for a cost breakdown of the job between materials and labor and even ask for costs of big items such as doors, etc. Then shop the big items.

Labor usually runs a third of the cost of materials for a job but could go as high as 50% if the labor is really professional and most of the work is gypsum, cheap doors, etc.

Are the walls demising your condo gypsum, or plaster and brick. Will he be required to create his own channels in the brick for electric?

Good luck.

Existing walls and ceiling will be removed so it should be convenient for the electric and water parts.

Anyway still need to talk a lot before chosing a contractor.

Thks all for your inputs.

[chownah]

Door costs vary so widely, as does baseboard. High quality doors are almost unlimited in cost. Solid core doors cost a lot more than those that aren't and panel doors cost more than flat. And the beat goes on.

That's why I don't exactly understand how he can send me an estimate for things like doors before agreeing on what kind of doors we want...

I have worked extensively with contrators...good ones and bad ones. It is almost impossible to tell a good one from a bad one. Some are good or bad depending on what the contract calls for....that is if they need work and what's available is a well written contract so that they are restricted to fair practices and payments then they can do that very well....but if they get lucky and find someone who doesn't know much about the building trades and knows nothing about contracts and price structures then they will take full advantage of the situation and become the bad contractor quite easily. I don't know if the contractors you have contacted are good or bad and quite fankly I'm not going to try to figure it out....that's your job.

No offense meant but from your posts you look like a chicken ready for plucking...except for the fact that you are looking for advice so you are at least questioning the prices...many people don't even do that. By saying, "I don't exactly understand how he can send me an estimate for things like doors before agreeing on what kind of doors we want..." The answer to this is obvious...he has quoted a price so high for doors that he's not worried about doors and since he's the expert you will probably be looking to him for advice on doors and he will probably give you some good advice which will allow him to give you a very cheap door and without lowering his price. Bad contractors typically put some items in a contract to test what the sucker knows or doesn't about costs. If you don't complain about a cost or nail down type and quality of materials then he knows he's hooked into something good....he knows how to work all the angles to minimize his costs and maximize your payments....its his job...he does it everyday.

I want to repeat that I am not making any judgements about the contractors you are dealing with...I'm not going to make any judgements about them and I'm not going to try to figure out if they are good or bad or whatever....I'm just talking about contractors in general and believe me they operate pretty much the same way everywhere. Unfortunately good contractors are really hard to find because they are always booked up for months and even years in advance....really....this is true...sometimes years in advance.

The best you can do is to become as knowledgeable as you can so that you can discuss items intelligently. If the contractor talks about markup on materials this is bullsift and just another way to try to justify a greater profit margin. Specifiy type and quality of ALL materials right down to the glue used on the conduit...."what? you didn't say you wanted to glue the conduit together...that's not part of our agreement...you must pay me xxx for the glue and xxx markup and xxx for delivery..and xxx for cleanup and xxx for brushes to spread the glue with and xxx for thinner to clean it up... and xxx to touch up the paint...and xxx for yet another angle that the average sucker doesn't know about. What you wanted half inch gypsum...my bid was based on 1/8 inch gypsum...now you must pay me xxx to remove this gypsum and xxx extra for longer nails and xxx for you get the idea.

It might be a good idea to supply the materials yourself and only pay the contractor for labor....maybe even ask him what daily labor rate for various workers he is using in developing his estimates and his estimates for how many days of which category of worker he will need for each operation...and what he expects to make as a profit....that way it makes him justify his charges and will make you look like you know alot about how this game works.

Chownah

[ProThaiExpat]

Chownah is so spot on it is frightening!!! Once the deal is made, if any changes are made, in the U.S. we say "Change orders are a license to steal"" said more understandably by Chpwnah.

What really struck home is what he said about good contractors becoming bad contractors by the way you treat them. In other words, give them a little rope and they will hang you.

I have used what is essentially a steel contractor on my property for four years and he would do the work at an agreed on price, it was done well and I paid him.

This last time, I added a side cover for an outside kitchen and I was most concerned that the roofing tiles matched my existing. I even went myself to Homemart and bought a sample for him to use and I specified that that was the tile to use. He did a superior job on the metal framing but when I turned my back, he bought cement colored roof tiles and painted them to match the sample. Clearly a much cheaper way to do it. Yes, I could have thrown a fit and had him change it to conform to my sample but since only one neighbor can see the tiles anyway and since he painted the underside to match the surrounding interior of the outside kitchen, mae pen rai.

I did feel as I kept adding work to the project, his prices kept getting steeper but I paid as I wanted the job done and a couple thousand baht wasn't all that hurtful. He finished on a Friday night late and due to my broken leg, I didn't get outside to check the work until Saturday early.

Lo and behold, I noticed that his overall paint job was great but somehow the front wall would just look so much better painted to match the abutting fence iron. I called the guy, he sent a man right over and had the wall painted with leftover paint, including undercoat by the end of the day.

How much, I asked, with trepidation? "Premium" he replied to my astonishment. It really is a give and take relationship, but I do agree that you need to keep them on a tight reign, regardless how good they are or how friendly they are.

Edited May 4, 2007 by ProThaiExpat

[taxexile]

if you are on good terms with the staff in the juristic persons office , then drop in and ask them if they can recommend a good contractor for refurbishing your unit.

these juristic offices can be the source of a wealth of reliable information about your building and those who do work in it.

there are probably one or two contractors who have done a lot of work in the building , have experience of matching their systems up with the buildings systems and have a good reputation with the office and have obtained repeat work their through satisfied customers and recommendations.

if there is such a company recommended by the office , then consult them for an estimate.

[chiang mai]

Hi,

I have a condo to refurbish, and asked few contractors, for plans and cost estimate.

None of them were able to provide a satisfactory 1st draft for floor planning, but I got some cost estimates.

Those are before any negotiation, please tell me if they are completely off, or not that much.

Supply and install water supply and drainage to kitchen 9500 THB

Supply and install kitchen floor tiling 1300/m²

Supply and install suspended ceiling throughout, gypsum type 1200/m²

Supply and install gypsum type partition walls 1200/m² (how do "gypsum" wall look like?)

Supply and install new interior doors 11200/door

Supply and install electric sockets throughout 1250/socket

Supply and install AV points 1750/point

Prepare and renovate flooring (parquet) throughout 800/m²

Prepare and paint walling throughout 250/m²

Prepare and paint ceilings throughout 200/m² (I was thinking it was more expensive to paint the ceiling than the walls)

Permit and approval application 4500

Thxs for your help

Yeti

My recent experience suggests your estimates are very much on the high side. For example I have recently paid the following:

80 square meter floor tile - 220 baht meter, laid.

seven internal doors - 2,500 per door installed

eighteen electrical points - 150 baht per point.

suspended ceiling - if you are referring to the product that the locals know as "T-Bar" which is almost one meter squares of plaster installed on a suspended frame this is very inexpensive. Price per square runs at between 10 baht and 16 baht per square.

Other points - gypsum walls, another name for gyprock or plater board or wall board look fine as long as it is properly installed and finished. But it's not a popular method of finishing walls here hence experience of how to install it might be questionable. Typically partition walls would be made from concrete block and then rendered which does provide a harder and stronger surface without any air gap behind where insects etc can set up home.

Overall from your post I would say you are being ripped off, big time.

[yeti]

I'm not being ripped off yet, as I did not hire anybody yet, and am posting here to try to be ripped off as little as possible.

The company from which I posted the estimate is not very eager to give me a new, more detailed, estimate, and they missed important points, so I'll just forget about them.

Two other big companies sent me even more expensive quotations.

I've met two local builders who did some previous work in the building, the 1st one proposed me some unacceptable solutions (tiling the kitchen on top of the existing parquet for example), the 2nd one was more interesting.

He knows the building quite well, and told me that some of the things I wanted to do are not possible, and that the existing parquet has to be removed because of termites (my next question on this forum ), something everybody else forgot to tell me (and he was the 5th builder to visit the condo). But I visited his previous work in the building, and the finishing is not good enough for me.

So can anyone recommend a well established company? (I know, it's the million bahts question).

[lingling]

So can anyone recommend a well established company? (I know, it's the million bahts question).

Where are you located? I have one very good concrete/masonry/tiling contractor who did an outstanding job for us. (He just need to finish one more thing for me and then I can let you have his phone number... )

[yeti]

Bangkok.

[pete_r]

Where in Bangkok? We have a contractor doing the kitchen at the moment. Good work quality (not outstanding) and I find his prices rather low, 25000 Bahts for the work and building materials (bricks, concrete, pipes, wires...). We supply the tiles, counter top, sink etc (all the visible parts) ourselves. He is based in Nonthaburi.

[yeti]

On Nut area (upper sukhumvit).

[stevejones123]

If you are going to have to take the wood floor up first then that will add loads to the cost of the kitchen tiling. A lot depends on the quality of the tiles.

80 square meter floor tile - 220 baht meter, laid.

seven internal doors - 2,500 per door installed

eighteen electrical points - 150 baht per point.

Sounds cheap to me. Works out at 22 baht a square foot of ceramic tile inclusive of labor. I've never seen any in the shops I would want to use at that price.

With regard to doors obviously, if the door frame is already in place, the cost will depend very much on the quality of the door. And there is also the cost of handles and hinges. The 11,200 the OP quotes would be correct for designed hardwood doors with quality accessories., but the guy needs to go to various carpenters and shops to see what exactly he is going to get. Electricians will charge the cost per connection as their basis for charging for all the labour, and sometimes all the wiring and conduit as well. Either negotiate or be prepared to use a load of extension cables!