3 minutes ago, wasabi said:

 

With Bush v Gore it was a single state and only a few hundred votes. The question was not fraud but if the vote had been accurately tallied. Given the counting was even more manual than it is now that was entirely reasonable. Overturning multiple states with margins of hundreds of thousands of votes is not similar at all. Above all where is the evidence other than vague accusations from a proven instigator (Trump)?

Simple would be if it was done by a computer, longer would be if they were absentee mail in ballots that had to be confirmed as not voted in person and ensuring the signature was good.

2 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

which is a lie as it turned out

But rudy said he has 50 affidavits. He never lies.

2 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

". . . relying upon a "payroll vote" of judges who owe their appointment to Trump . . ."

 

Isn't that pure speculation with no evidence to support it and thus a false or misleading statement?

No it is my opinion. Feel free to disagree, or even challenge it. I make no claim to be posting an unchallengable definitive account of the state of affairs.

2 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

NY Times has Biden at 279.  Which includes PA, but not GA nor AZ.  GA's a lock.  PA's a lock.  But AZ is getting tighter.  Not many votes left there.

 

So, the fat lady has sung.  Trump lost.  No way to win at this point.  Even via these BS legal challenges.  Man up, accept the loss and move on.

I don't think he or his claque are trying to win. It is obvious that they cannot win on the numbers. I think that they are trying to engineer overturning the result, by manipulating a system which was never intended to work in that way.

1 hour ago, canuckamuck said:

but the vote is the foundation of everything America stands for.

And is what Mr Trump is attempting to overturn! 

14 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

No it is my opinion. Feel free to disagree, or even challenge it. I make no claim to be posting an unchallengable definitive account of the state of affairs.

You're a lucky one.

This reminds me of the Democrat Stacy Abrams who recently the race for governor of GA. Even though she lost, she refused to concede and still won't concede., 2 years later. She kept going on about election fraud and almost all of those who wanted her as governor, believed her. She tried fighting it, yet lost. 

 

My take away, for each person it seems to say to me that they are ok when their candidate does it, but not ok when another candidate does it cause they are being childish. 

 

Personally, I think if both sides keep saying this all the time, there might be some truth to it and it should be looked into more; otherwise, it is a tragedy to democracy.

7 minutes ago, curlylekan said:

This reminds me of the Democrat Stacy Abrams who recently the race for governor of GA. Even though she lost, she refused to concede and still won't concede., 2 years later. She kept going on about election fraud and almost all of those who wanted her as governor, believed her. She tried fighting it, yet lost. 

 

My take away, for each person it seems to say to me that they are ok when their candidate does it, but not ok when another candidate does it cause they are being childish. 

 

Personally, I think if both sides keep saying this all the time, there might be some truth to it and it should be looked into more; otherwise, it is a tragedy to democracy.

She probably was one of the driving forces for Biden's Georgia win.

1 hour ago, ThailandRyan said:

Hell, I had three absentee ballots mailed to me here in Thailand on the same day.  Could I have voted three times, sure, would it have been legal, hell no.  But to have three Ballots arrive on the same day from the US just amazes me.  Why would they mail out three?  

Well assuming that they were delivered by Thailand Post, you may find that one was for the 2016 election, and one for 2012?

????

35 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Simple would be if it was done by a computer, longer would be if they were absentee mail in ballots that had to be confirmed as not voted in person and ensuring the signature was good.

Maybe it would be simple but it would make it a lot more difficult to detect fraud. Which is why voting systems are actually moving away from that and towards a hybrid system where a paper copy if made of each vote to make sure nothing untoward occurred in the computer system.

14 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

It seems they never called PA, so it has remained grey the whole time. So according to them there are four states on the wire and Biden has 259. I thought they had called PA earlier. My mistake.

I doubt very much that you happened to independently make this mistake after Giuliani and other posted it. Most likely you fell for misinformation.

4 minutes ago, stevenl said:

She probably was one of the driving forces for Biden's Georgia win.

She is bad for democracy too

Just now, curlylekan said:

She is bad for democracy too

Au contraire, she is calling out voter suppression, a widespread Republican strategy.

11 minutes ago, curlylekan said:

This reminds me of the Democrat Stacy Abrams who recently the race for governor of GA. Even though she lost, she refused to concede and still won't concede., 2 years later. She kept going on about election fraud and almost all of those who wanted her as governor, believed her. She tried fighting it, yet lost. 

 

My take away, for each person it seems to say to me that they are ok when their candidate does it, but not ok when another candidate does it cause they are being childish. 

 

Personally, I think if both sides keep saying this all the time, there might be some truth to it and it should be looked into more; otherwise, it is a tragedy to democracy.

She wasn't going on about fraud. What she was going on about was that Brian Kemp who was running for governor, was also at the time Georgia Secretary of State. The Secretary of State is in charge of elections. Instead of resigning from that post or recusing himself as any reasonably honorable person would have done, he stayed on and struck voters off rolls in a way that benefited himself.

2 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Au contraire, she is calling out voter suppression, a widespread Republican strategy.

Which certainly helped Kemp gain the governorship.

2 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

I would really like to know if the the supporters of Biden on this thread, were given unequivocal evidence that there was voter fraud, would they care? Would they care if they knew the election was rigged?

Personally yes.

 

I am not an American, I do not have a vote in this election. My personal politics are in UK terms centre/right (I can never make up my mind whether I am a liberal conservative or a conservative liberal!), and therefore I favour Mr Biden and Mrs Harris over Messrs Trump and Pence. 

 

I do regard the USA's democracy as a beacon to the world in such matters. President Reagan's description of a "shining city on a hill" was perhaps a bit sugar coated, but none the less, for those of us who believe in Democracy, in whatever form it is practised, the USA is central to our arguments. Mr Trump and his allies are engaged in a cynical attempt to corrupt that process, and that is why I am so vehemently opposed to what he is doing.

 

If Mr Biden and Mrs Harris were engaging in the same game then i would view them in the same way.

Edited November 10, 20205 yr by herfiehandbag

9 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I doubt very much that you happened to independently make this mistake after Giuliani and other posted it. Most likely you fell for misinformation.

Yes, I am the only one falling for misinformation. You got me.

4 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

Yes, I am the only one falling for misinformation. You got me.

I wish it were the case that in that regard you were unique and not typical.

Edited November 10, 20205 yr by placeholder

46 minutes ago, curlylekan said:

This reminds me of the Democrat Stacy Abrams who recently the race for governor of GA. Even though she lost, she refused to concede and still won't concede., 2 years later. She kept going on about election fraud and almost all of those who wanted her as governor, believed her. She tried fighting it, yet lost. 

 

My take away, for each person it seems to say to me that they are ok when their candidate does it, but not ok when another candidate does it cause they are being childish. 

 

Personally, I think if both sides keep saying this all the time, there might be some truth to it and it should be looked into more; otherwise, it is a tragedy to democracy.

Voter suppression in the south is a big deal. That was Stacey's complaint. She acknowledged she lost 

5 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Even the Republican Secretary of State for GA said there's no significant fraud and there's pretty much no way Trump will win his state.  Sadly, the GOP senators are calling for his dismissal.

 

The GOP's gone nuts.

Yep, they've 'gone' for sure but they 'went' quite some me ago, like 4 years. 

42 minutes ago, stevenl said:

She probably was one of the driving forces for Biden's Georgia win.

She was!

2 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Voter suppression in the south is a big deal. That was Stacey's complaint. She acknowledged she lost 

I firmly disagree that it is done by only side and in only 1 area of the country. Both sides say it often, so I firmly believe that people from both parties do it.

 

As for Stacy Abrams, no she never conceded. https://news.yahoo.com/why-stacey-abrams-still-wont-concede-194648579.html

1 minute ago, curlylekan said:

I firmly disagree that it is done by only side and in only 1 area of the country. Both sides say it often, so I firmly believe that people from both parties do it.

 

As for Stacy Abrams, no she never conceded. https://news.yahoo.com/why-stacey-abrams-still-wont-concede-194648579.html

Agreed! Time for a change. Both sides are corrupt. But the GOP is the worst at gerrymandering. No denying that. 

40 minutes ago, placeholder said:

She wasn't going on about fraud. What she was going on about was that Brian Kemp who was running for governor, was also at the time Georgia Secretary of State. The Secretary of State is in charge of elections. Instead of resigning from that post or recusing himself as any reasonably honorable person would have done, he stayed on and struck voters off rolls in a way that benefited himself.

This is semantics. I believe my point is still valid. Both sides seem to love to call the other out as if something way beyond their control is what caused them to lose. None can accept defeat. None accept that maybe people don't want them in office. Stacy Abrams is a stain on GA and needs to eat a salad, before she lectures anyone

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

Can you share with us some of those unequivocal claims? Because some of us here have been shooting fish in a barrel...i.e. claims of unequivocal fraud. So far the courts haven't been real sympathetic to such claims.

Canuk was posing a hypothetical question to make a valid point, not being partisan. 

22 minutes ago, curlylekan said:

I firmly disagree that it is done by only side and in only 1 area of the country. Both sides say it often, so I firmly believe that people from both parties do it.

 

As for Stacy Abrams, no she never conceded. https://news.yahoo.com/why-stacey-abrams-still-wont-concede-194648579.html

From your link ""

And despite acknowledging Kemp as the legal victor, Abrams has refused to officially concede the election.

“Concession in the political space is an acknowledgment that the process was fair,” she told Yahoo News. “And I don't believe that to be so.”

 

So this is down to word games now, or semantics as you said yourself. Btw, conflict if interest, ad is the case with Kemp, is not the same as voter suppression or voter fraud. So that is more than semantics.

And voter suppression is in the interest of Republicans only, so guess who are doing it?

.

Edited November 10, 20205 yr by stevenl

Abrams' non-concession concession speech could hold a few lessons in it for Donald Trump:

 

Quote

 

I acknowledge that former Secretary of State Brian Kemp will be certified as the victor in the 2018 gubernatorial election.
...
Concession means to acknowledge an action is right, true or proper. As a woman of conscience and faith, I cannot concede. But my assessment is that the law currently allows no further viable remedy.

Now, I could certainly bring a new case to keep this one contest alive, but I don’t want to hold public office if I need to scheme my way into the post. Because the title of Governor isn’t nearly as important as our shared title. Voters.

 

https://qz.com/1468560/read-stacey-abrams-full-concession-speech/

 

24 minutes ago, curlylekan said:

This is semantics. I believe my point is still valid. Both sides seem to love to call the other out as if something way beyond their control is what caused them to lose. None can accept defeat. None accept that maybe people don't want them in office. Stacy Abrams is a stain on GA and needs to eat a salad, before she lectures anyone

Sorry no. It's Kemp who was the sleazy party in this case. Once again, he was running for governor and as Sec. of State manipulated the voting roster in a way that benefited him. Any halfway ethical person can see that this stinks.

16 minutes ago, stevenl said:

From your link ""

And despite acknowledging Kemp as the legal victor, Abrams has refused to officially concede the election.

“Concession in the political space is an acknowledgment that the process was fair,” she told Yahoo News. “And I don't believe that to be so.”

 

So this is down to word games now, or semantics as you said yourself. Btw, conflict if interest, ad is the case with Kemp, is not the same as voter suppression or voter fraud. So that is more than semantics.

And voter suppression is in the interest of Republicans only, so guess who are doing it?

.

Lost Georgia to Democratic party and Trump pimps can't stomach it ! Hundreds of thousands of black voters turned out to vote for Biden !  Sticks in your gut doesn't it 

1 hour ago, canuckamuck said:

Yes, I am the only one falling for misinformation. You got me.

Not at all, there are about 70 million voters in America who have been gulled by flim-flam.